Elementalists and Mesmers, extinct in PVE?

Str0b0

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Carolina

N/Me

14 Apr 2006 at 23:07 - 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira Blinks
Edit:
thats just a nice wording for an ugly thing.
Once again - apparently elementalist AoE skills were broken. I fail to see fundamental difference between elementalists AoE and either Barrage or SS. Thus later are broken as well. This logic is as basic as it ever gets.

As for skill: Thats a worst piece of bull i ever heard.
Oh yes, repeatedly clickin barrage button requires alot of skill... Putting up two hexes and goin to get coffee while mobs wacking themselves to death apparently does to
I bet you never played nuker in places like FoW and have no idea how much micromanagement required to avoid being interrupted in the middle of 5 seconds spell, to keep covering up attunement, to time spells properly, to avoid being murdered by melee when some moron broke aggro, to manage energy... and all that for barely half effectiveness of your "skilled" players. Dont even start me on interrupt mesmers - that profession is all about skill.
Ok your "logic" is based upon the assumption that the nerf was actually a good idea. I don't think it was. By your rationale just because something happens it must therefore be right so why don't we start rounding people up and putting them back in concentration camps because hell it happened twice therefore it must be right. Logically I can prove that only one inhabited planet exists in the entire universe but that doesn't make it so. You're reaching here and you're falling back upon "balancing" updates and thumping them like a preacher talking hellfire and damnation from the pulpit. You're completely ignoring the metagame, which it could be argued is really the only aspect of the game that people really play. Everything else is based off the metagame from how missions are run to how PvP strategies unfold.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira Blinks
Im not sure if you noticed but you have just totaly supported my point. If I want to enjoy the game I have to forget about ele and make myself necro or whatever (which i in fact did). That does prove that eles and mesmers are broken in the first place.
And no you just proved my point. People are lazy and don't want to play the metagame. I am not saying at all that you have to abandon an ele or a mesmer I am saying you have to figure out how to make them work. They will work you just haven't figured it out yet. As some of the mesmer's in the community have pointed out there are effective PvE builds they just aren't shared as thoroughly. I already mentioned my highly effective ele build. Stop being lazy and wanting people to fix things and dumb them down to your level. If you want to play a dumbed down game with all the synergies laid out for you then go play Diablo 2. they list everything for you nice and easy and there is no real metagame involved there at all.

Ira Blinks

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2006

14 Apr 2006 at 23:15 - 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Str0b0
Ok your "logic" is based upon the assumption that the nerf was actually a good idea. I don't think it was. By your rationale just because something happens it must therefore be right so why don't we start rounding people up and putting them back in concentration camps because hell it happened twice therefore it must be right.
You are correct. My proof is based on assumption that AoE nerf was a right thing to do. Your conclusion however is totaly random. I dont see a reason for word logic to be enquoted either. You have totaly confused fact (expression that always holds true) and right/moral thing to do.

Quote:
Logically I can prove that only one person exists in the entire univers but that doesn't make it so.
give it a try. Logic, my friend, is not a common sense. Logic is an application of math. It has very strict rules and not something to make fun of just because you cant use it.

Quote:
You're reaching here and you're falling back upon "balancing" updates and thumping them like a preacher talking hellfire and damantion from the pull pit. You're completely ignoring the metagame, which it could be argued is really the only aspect of the game that people really play. Everything else is based off the metagame from how missions are run to how PvP strategies unfold.
metagame is ethereal word you have just made up. I dont even know what you talking about. That I dont see a bigger picture? Ok... well, show me the big picture then.

Phoenix Ex

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2005

Mo/R

14 Apr 2006 at 23:16 - 43
Well...AoE patch debate yet again.

All I can say is I would rather use barrage then use an aoe ele skill and having 3 bladed aataxes fly off the tank and then straight to the monk and kill him in two hit. Even if the group manages to survive it usually ends up in a slow dodging and chasing war between casters, aataxes and the tanks.

As for mesmers...they are god at owning a single monster at a time...but I would rather kill a group of 10 at a fraction of the time since I don't have hours and hours per day to kill one by one...

So ya, Eles and mesmers are workable, just nowhere even CLOSE to the efficency of warrior, necros, and rangers. (Which are decent, NOT overpowered, so stop the whine to nerf SS and Barrage already)

Str0b0

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Carolina

N/Me

14 Apr 2006 at 23:28 - 44
Ok I take that back I can do you one step better and logically prove that there are no inhabited planets in the universe or that there are no uninhabited planets in the universe. We know that both of these statements are false but according to mathematical logic they are true. The universe is infinite. Therefore there is an infinite area for planets to exist in. Because of this there can be an infinite number of inhabited and an infinite number of uninhabited planets. This also means there are an infinite number of planets period. However if we want to narrow the scope to just the inhabited planets then we would subtract the number of uninhabited planets from the total number of planets. Since , as you pointed out logic must deal with math then we will use the mathematical concept of infinity which is a number that continues forever. Still the one undeniable rule of math is that if you subtract a number from itself the total is zero therefore there are no inhabited planets in the universe according to math and if there are no inhabited planets then there are no pepole so we all must be figments of a nonexistant imagination. Sorry for the off topic. Now shut up about logic and stop being lazy and play the metagame.

Now as for the metagame the metagame can be defined as the thought, strategy and planning that takes place outside of the game environment itself. In other words it is everything you should be doing when you start building a character. It is the strategy you go through when you decide what you want the character to do. It is the consideration of which skills will best help to achieve your goal and which ones will be applicable in as many situations as possible. If you aren't willing to do this and instead think that every combination of skills you just slap together should instantly dominate the game then you've already missed the skill aspect of the game.

Ira Blinks

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2006

14 Apr 2006 at 23:42 - 45
Quote:
We know that both of these statements are false but according to mathematical logic they are true
err... what? You call this a proof?

Ok this is a proof:

Theorem: spell Spiteful Spirit should have a property "trigger scattering"
Proven theorems available: Any DOT (damage over time) AoE spell should have property "trigger scattering"

First we prove that SS is an instance of DOT AoE spell.
By definition of DOT AoE. AoE is a spell with given properties:
1) dealing damage more than once per single cast
2) dealing damage to target foe and adjacent foes at the same time.

Both of those properties are true for SS, thus SS is a DOT AoE spell.

So now we left with very simple expression.
(DOT AoE has "trigger scattering" == true => SS has "trigger scattering" == true) == true
Which is simplified to:
(true => SS has "trigger scattering" == true) == true
Which is simplified to:
(SS has "trigger scattering" == true) == true
Which is simplified to:
SS has "trigger scattering"

makosi

makosi

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

"Pre-nerf" is incorrect. It's pre-buff.

Requirement Begins With R [notQ]

Me/

14 Apr 2006 at 23:44 - 46
First post i read: redundany/uselessness of mesmers + eles.
Last post i read: philosophy.

wtf... a wee bit off topic.

Anyway...

Remember the days when everyone wanted a tank, healer, bonder, MM and nuker for SF farming? It took months for people to realise that SS and Spinal Shivers was more effective- people are stubborn about changing their 'builds' despite the fact that SS is blatently better than meteors at dealing concentrated area dmg. My point is, people seem to find a build they are comfortable with and use it and on the rare occasion something new is introduced. Rangers were never considered good farming chars but they dominate tombs and FoW now. Its just a matter of time until a new build is designed and we'll see 'GLF MESMERS'... or is that just wishful thinkng?

Ira Blinks

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2006

14 Apr 2006 at 23:51 - 47
Quote:
If you aren't willing to do this and instead think that every combination of skills you just slap together should instantly dominate the game then you've already missed the skill aspect of the game.
Thats exactly what my problem is. You pul SS and echo on you skillbar and you DO dominate the game. Same goes for Barrage and 1-2 spirits.
On the opposite end we have ele who will dedicate his whole skill bar to just dealing damage and still fail at it. And dont you even dare to tell me Im not good at playing ele (nuker in particular). I perfected nuker profession. I squezed every bit of effectiveness out of it. And Im still subpar to necro/rangers who dont even know what skill is.

Phoenix Ex

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2005

Mo/R

14 Apr 2006 at 23:52 - 48
I doubt mesmer will ever have a build that is on par with Meteor Shower and SS. Just look at all their skills and there's barely any that has the word adjacent, or nearby, or in the area with a dmg number that is worthwhile...

P.S. Chaos Storm is absolute junk, fix it please....

Str0b0

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Carolina

N/Me

14 Apr 2006 at 23:52 - 49
Fine then we will represent it this way. A = the number of inhabited planets B= the number of uninhabited planets and C = the total number of planets. According to the mathematical concept of infinity A=B=C. therefore C-B=0. Or is your "logic" selective in it's application? That's the way it seems to me. You deny solid mathematical proof and then go about using metamath and calling it mathematical logic. Basically your little "proof" up there is like me saying "Apples+Lemons=Oranges because red and yellow make the color orange and both apples and lemons are kind of roundish like an orange. Just because something is similar does not make it the same nor does it make the rules that govern one applicable to the other. By the way you are also using a contrapost sentence in your proof. One does not imply the other.

I would never dare to tell you you aren't any good at playing an ele however maybe you just aren't trying the right skill combinations? Or perhaps your secondary class selections do not have synergy with your primary. Unless you have tried every possible skill combination then you cannot say that it is impossible for an ele to be as effective as an SS necro.

Ira Blinks

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2006

14 Apr 2006 at 23:54 - 50
Quote:
C-B=0
incorrect.

Str0b0

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Carolina

N/Me

15 Apr 2006 at 00:03 - 51
Really? I'd love to know how. Lets put less ephemeral numbers to it. Let us say that infinity can instead be reduced to the number 2. So we substitute 2 for all instances of infinity in the above proof. What you are basically saying is that 2-2 does not equal 0. In fact you are implying that any number subtracted from itself does not equal zero.

Ira Blinks

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2006

15 Apr 2006 at 00:08 - 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Str0b0
Really? I'd love to know how. Lets put less ephemeral numbers to it. Let us say that infinity can instead be reduced to the number 2. So we substitute 2 for all instances of infinity in the above proof. What you are basically saying is that 2-2 does not equal 0.
find yourself an algebra book or something...
Infinity has a limited set of allowed operations. Result of operation
Infinity - Infinity
is undefined.
Simply because
Infinity + Infinity = Infinity (and not 2x Infinity as you might have expect)

That is already given that i've let you get away with horrible misconcept of variable versus infinity value in A=B=C expression.

Str0b0

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Join Date: Feb 2006

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N/Me

15 Apr 2006 at 00:11 - 53
Absolutely not. Infinity may not be terminated at a single number therefore it may not be added to ,but when working in terms of infinity it may indeed be subtracted from itself and divided into itself. The problem that you suggest only occurs when you try to subtract a finite number from or divide a finite number into infinity. If infinity could not be subtracted from itself then there would be no starting point for a time line. You could argue that infinity existed prior to the big bang but that is also a fallacy . As Stephen Hawking once pointed out, everything prior to the big bang did not effect anything afterwards and therefore is inconsequential. So infinity may indeed start from a given point and because of that it may also be reduced back to that point by subtracting it from itself. Even if you allow for omnidirectional expansion as a model of infinity that expansion must also start from a central point and therefore it can be reduced back to that point.

Ira Blinks

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2006

15 Apr 2006 at 00:13 - 54
as i said before:
Quote:
find yourself an algebra book or something...
Edit: first link from google on "math infinity operation" http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/55764.html

Str0b0

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Join Date: Feb 2006

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N/Me

15 Apr 2006 at 00:22 - 55
Yeah algebra...I remember that from 8th grade. When you get to more advanced mathematics you'll find that algebra does not have all the answers. Infinity must start from somewhere. Anything that has a starting point may be reduced to that starting point by subtracting it from itself. That's just the way things work. If you start a number line then if you subtract the total points on that number line from that number of points you end up with zero, the beginning of the number line. That maxim you posted like it's a universal law, certainly holds true for low level mathematics but for higher maths it doesn't. It can be argued that infinity does not exist in any number system however that isn't entirely true. Infinity is a number system in and of itself. It contains the sum total of all the numbers in existence. It behaves according to it's own rules. You have not provided any logical argument to counter mine you just posted an arbitrary rule used to deal with a concept that is difficult to define in mathematics. Because of that they basically fudged over it. Basically your supporting proof is like me saying that no vehicle can go over 65 on the freeway because the speedlimit is 65. Arbitrary rules do not make for a convincing or necessarily correct argument.

Ira Blinks

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2006

15 Apr 2006 at 00:27 - 56
gosh... This IS more advanced math. And what you talking about IS school primitives.
You can NOT substract the same amount of points because that amount is NOT equal to the given amount. Simply put Infinity = Infinity == false. There is no "same" amount - that is exactly why substract operation is undefined.

Str0b0

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N/Me

15 Apr 2006 at 00:33 - 57
Ok so please educate me on how subtracting two numbers that are defined the same way does not equal zero? You're trying to tell me that infinity has changed since I typed the first mention of it? That sounds like a massive leap of faith there. Even if given a constantly mutating number if you subtract that number from itself it must still equal zero because the numbers are the same even if they are in a constant state of flux because even the way in which they change must be equal. Even if we expand that to an entire function it still holds true. the clone of a fractal function will express the exact same mutations as the original equation. If they are both subtracted from each other at the same point in time then they still equal zero. The only way your argument works is if you add a fourth dimension to mathematical processes and say that time is a factor. That is to say that the infinity you originally decided to subtract becomes static at the time you decide to subtract it and so if you subtract your frozen infinity from dynamic infinity you will not end up with zero. I concede that point but that's adding a variable into the mix which was not originally defined.

Hadoken13

Hadoken13

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2006

The Smuggler's Alliance

Mo/

15 Apr 2006 at 00:37 - 58
JESUS TAP-DANCING CHRIST?!?!?!??!!?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE??????
what does logic have to do with anything??? even if nerfing ss and barrage are the right things to do arena net won't do it! think about it, regardless of who ever is right do you think that ANet want's to make more people angry at them? angry people=no sales, that's my logic. some like to farm some don't. your idea of fun may be the metagame(whatever that is) while mine may be playing the game the way the devs intended. who cares???!?!?!?!??!?!

back on the topic-
it is true that mesmers can't solo farm as efficiently as other proffs. but that is because they were never meant to be the damage dealing class. elems on the other hand....i have to dissagree, they can do as much damage (if not quite as quickly) it is just that their builds are not popular right now. i remember a time where my guildy couldn't get a pug cuz she was a necro, but now necros are all the rage! in a month or so once factions comes out i am sure that the whole thing will change and someone else will be the new farmer. then we can all complain about them.
---also at above poster infinity is undefined you cannot add or subtract it and have an answer---

M3lk0r

M3lk0r

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Join Date: Jul 2005

R/Mo

15 Apr 2006 at 00:39 - 59
As I said in my last post in Riverside (which got deleted) "What a load of total shyte"

Such things have been happening since the begaining of the game. Was no one there when "farm groups" started out? NOBODY took rangers, necros or mesmers. It was all tank war, dual echo ele and bond monk. You had 0 chance of getting a group if someone of the "holy trinity" was already present. UW ranger-trap groups were the only exceptions I might add.

The AoE Update changed everyting, though I believe it was primarily targeted at 55 monks doing UW (and coming back with 10 ectos a run), the one-trick ele took the biggest hit. Numerous petitions flared up (written by 12 years by the looks of it) and a minority exchanged their accounts for Runescape items (yes Runescape!!).

Now people started realising SS and the beauties of Minion Masters (mind, "suggestions" for Nerfs on both came quickly in Sardelic). Anyways Necros finally got the their place in the holy trinity. Barrage rangers were still not really popular (though people did try then in SF) untill the ruined Tombs came out. Thanks to a really tight map design, body blocking with pets and minions became effective and ZOMG ele's and war had to be left out.

Mesmers are the biggest loosers in all of this. No easy to use idiot-friendly build is PvE metagame yet. And bs on Ele being not invited, a echo-nukers are still ussed en masse in FoW. And here I thought my warder would be put to good use :-/

Ira Blinks

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2006

15 Apr 2006 at 00:43 - 60
I told you, you have no concept of variable versus value. Infinity is a value, however we denote it with word "infinity" which is variable. In this case variables are the same, but values are not. Unfortunately I dont know how to type Infinity sign into forum message, so lets pretend X is infinity sign (as value), so:
A = X (assign value X to A)
B = X (assign value X to B)
Now is A==B? Answer is no. Why may you ask? Bacause:
X + 1 == X (does not require proof i hope)
=>
A == X + 1
=>
A + 1 == X
=>
A + 1 == B

In case you still dont get it. Infinity is defined as number being greater than (less than for negative infinity) any other number. But since Infinity ny itself is also a number, then Infinity is greater than Infinity.

Badenstein

Badenstein

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2005

Ohio

15 Apr 2006 at 00:47 - 61
This thread is proof that GuildWars Guru is not the 1337 site they claim to be.

hunter, you seem to be baiting for flame. i sense you are a mountain troll.

Str0b0

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Carolina

N/Me

15 Apr 2006 at 00:48 - 62
And no infinity is not undefined. It is only undefined in low level math. In higher level math, like quantum theory and other things that use real math not the kid stuff you get taught in school, infinity is a concrete and defineable concept. If I limited myself to algebra, and calculus then yes you're right but any time you start bringing infinity into the mix you automatically tread in the domain of higher math, particularly quantum mechanics, where the rules are different but also are more true than the arbitrary rules that lower level math works by. any quantum mathematics professor will tell you that the "undefined infinity" crap was put in there by lazy mathematicians who didn't wat to have to deal with concepts that had no practical application in basic mathematics. I believe my prof's exact words were,"Infinity is a concept that is easily defined if only people would stop trying to reduce it to a number and accept it for what it is, that being a variable that is equal to itself and only itself." Once you realize this then it becomes easy to deal with infinity as a mathematical concept.

M3lk0r

M3lk0r

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R/Mo

15 Apr 2006 at 00:49 - 63
EDIT: not getting into this

Ira Blinks

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2006

15 Apr 2006 at 00:51 - 64
This isnt school stuff. This is from York University course. Computer Science program.
Im tried of you. All you have said so far "no, you talk kids stuff, i know better". Yeah whatever big boy.

Lord Iowerth

Lord Iowerth

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

Atlanta, GA (#guildwarsguru FTW!)

Biscuit Of Dewm [MEEP]

R/Mo

15 Apr 2006 at 00:54 - 65
Could I introduce a more important point?

This isn't a math forum. I vaguely recall something mesmer and elementalist related way back on the first page or two, anyone else remember that? Great.

kthxbye.

Rayne Nightfyre

Rayne Nightfyre

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Acolytes of Lyssa [AL]

Me/A

15 Apr 2006 at 01:00 - 66
*slaps the OP* for making this foolish argument resurface.

That's all I'll say.

Str0b0

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Carolina

N/Me

15 Apr 2006 at 01:04 - 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira Blinks
This isnt school stuff. This is from York University course. Computer Science program.
Im tried of you. All you have said so far "no, you talk kids stuff, i know better". Yeah whatever big boy.
I see so computer science qualifies you to understand quantum mathemtatics. Wow who'd have thought that any network admin could be the next Stephen Hawking. You lack the education to deal with the mathematical concepts so I won't continue the argument further both for the sake of staying on topic and for the sake of me keeping my patience. I feel like I'm trying to explain the workings of an internal combustion engine to cavemen.

Cymboric Treewalker

Cymboric Treewalker

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Imperial Palace - Cantha

[SFK] Sacred Forge Knights (founder)

Me/Mo

15 Apr 2006 at 01:09 - 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira Blinks
You can not deny that both SS and Barrage are too powerful even compared to pre-aoe nerf ele spells. Fact that rangers werent used too much only meant that people are shortighted, and not that rangers suck.
How many eles left the game after that nerf? How many times we've been thrown "i dont stand under firestorm" argument in our face? Well guess what - I dont stand close to mates when they have SS on or attacked by Barrage either, so why do mobs do?
Let me make this easy for you...

You = human

Mob 1 = simulated human AI (it should move aware from AOE stuff)

Mob 2 = simulated animal AI (it should either run away in fear -- defeated or stupidly go in to a rage and get nuked)

I would be happy if not all the critters had the same reaction to AOE but with them all having the same reaction it does not make sense...

Heck with my R/Me I don't bother moving out of the way for most elemental AOE -- it gives me energy and barely scratches me.

Cymboric Treewalker

Cymboric Treewalker

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Me/Mo

15 Apr 2006 at 01:11 - 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by hunter
*Sigh* Ok, it seems like some people didn't ready what i wrote... so going at it again.

1. My point was mainly for the highend areas. And i specificially said that i don't consider Hell's Priciples to be one of them due to how easy it is to complete. (Hence i don't care if your water Ele can farm it, THATS NOT MY POINT)

2. Some people said how useful their Eles and Mes were in their UW group. Obviously this doesn't hold much water because Monks and Monk based characters can SOLO that place. And no, i do not consider a solo Elementalist who is exploiting the 55 build to be an elementalist since we all know what kind of skills that elementalist will have in the hotbar as well as the attribute distribution.

3. There is a difference between doing it and doing it effectively. Just because you can clear FoW or UW with your happy group, and also getting something out of it doesn't mean that its the most efficient way. In fact its far from it. It has been proven that solo or duo farming UW and FoW is MUCH more efficient profit wise. So again, read my first post carefully.

4. SF and tombs. A b/p , mm and SS build will find a party spot much faster then a Ele. Do you honestly believe that a group will drop a b/p ranger for an elementalist or Mesmer? I didn't think so. So again, we have two classes that get the shaft in PVE.

PS: Solo troll farming does NOT count
With all of your caveats and lack of knowledge to the skills available it would be easier if you just said:

Me right!! You Wrong!! -- cause basically you haven't listened to what people are saying.

Cymboric Treewalker

Cymboric Treewalker

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Me/Mo

15 Apr 2006 at 01:17 - 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Iowerth
Ok, two things I would like to point out ...

1) Solo farming ANYTHING is slower than taking a group, and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong ... even if it's a group of all the same build, it is still exponentially faster due to higher DPS, balance, etc. Yes, soloing nets you the highest profit, at the cost of time spent creeping about trying not to aggro too much and die, or using skills in a particular order.

and

2) Um, how many character slots do we have currently? 4? Roll another character already. If your retort to this is "but I don't like playing class X," that doesn't hold much water. "I really like to ride my bicycle, but they won't let me on the freeway with it." Well, sorry to say you can't drive your car through the bike paths in the middle of the park, either. Sometimes it's just not possible to have your cake and eat it too. You enjoy mesmers and eles? Great! I do as well, but I know their limitations and why it's hard to play in certain areas with them when another class is more suited to the monster type.

If you're dead-set on farming with your ele or mesmer: come up with a superb build to solo, or a way to add an ele or mes to an existing "cookie cutter" UW, FoW, SF, Tombs build ... then come back here and point fingers at us and laugh! Until you can though, don't be surprised if you get a bit of flaming
Sorry too busy farming to waste time laughing at you.

Cymboric Treewalker

Cymboric Treewalker

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Me/Mo

15 Apr 2006 at 01:20 - 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira Blinks
Im not sure if you noticed but you have just totaly supported my point. If I want to enjoy the game I have to forget about ele and make myself necro or whatever (which i in fact did). That does prove that eles and mesmers are broken in the first place.
Please leave my mesmer alone... I like it the way it is.

Thanks.

Cymboric Treewalker

Cymboric Treewalker

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Me/Mo

15 Apr 2006 at 01:23 - 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira Blinks
find yourself an algebra book or something...
Infinity has a limited set of allowed operations. Result of operation
Infinity - Infinity
is undefined.
Simply because
Infinity + Infinity = Infinity (and not 2x Infinity as you might have expect)

That is already given that i've let you get away with horrible misconcept of variable versus infinity value in A=B=C expression.
I will not attack this, but it would be fun to toy with you.

Cymboric Treewalker

Cymboric Treewalker

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Me/Mo

15 Apr 2006 at 01:30 - 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Str0b0
Absolutely not. Infinity may not be terminated at a single number therefore it may not be added to ,but when working in terms of infinity it may indeed be subtracted from itself and divided into itself. The problem that you suggest only occurs when you try to subtract a finite number from or divide a finite number into infinity. If infinity could not be subtracted from itself then there would be no starting point for a time line. You could argue that infinity existed prior to the big bang but that is also a fallacy . As Stephen Hawking once pointed out, everything prior to the big bang did not effect anything afterwards and therefore is inconsequential. So infinity may indeed start from a given point and because of that it may also be reduced back to that point by subtracting it from itself. Even if you allow for omnidirectional expansion as a model of infinity that expansion must also start from a central point and therefore it can be reduced back to that point.
Umm....

First: Time is not something as you describe it above.
Second: The "big bang" is a theory.
Third: Assuming the "big bang" theory is correct then Stephen Hawking is incorrect in his assertion.

Infinity does not have a start nor an end, though for certain mathematics they do place limits on it.

Read some on Cantor's solution (for mathematics) ...

Basically the paradox is as such:

Which is larger the set of even integers or the set of integers?

One would instantly assume the set of integers, but since both sets are infinite that can not be true... can it?

Matsumi

Matsumi

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

15 Apr 2006 at 01:32 - 74
Hmm, ok, I was going to reply to this thread, but how about this?

Say a cat is trapped in a box in space that is spinning, inside the box is a nuclear bomb that would go off if the cat landed on its feet inside the box, triggering the switch on one side of the box. Now, while the box is spinning in space it's also being pulled into earth. The box is spinning at 8 revolutions per second. Once the box enters the earths atmosphere and begins to fall, will the bomb go off before or after it hits the ground?

lol

Cymboric Treewalker

Cymboric Treewalker

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Imperial Palace - Cantha

[SFK] Sacred Forge Knights (founder)

Me/Mo

15 Apr 2006 at 01:40 - 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Str0b0
I see so computer science qualifies you to understand quantum mathemtatics. Wow who'd have thought that any network admin could be the next Stephen Hawking. You lack the education to deal with the mathematical concepts so I won't continue the argument further both for the sake of staying on topic and for the sake of me keeping my patience. I feel like I'm trying to explain the workings of an internal combustion engine to cavemen.
Can we talk about string theory then?

Cymboric Treewalker

Cymboric Treewalker

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Imperial Palace - Cantha

[SFK] Sacred Forge Knights (founder)

Me/Mo

15 Apr 2006 at 01:41 - 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsumi
Hmm, ok, I was going to reply to this thread, but how about this?

Say a cat is trapped in a box in space that is spinning, inside the box is a nuclear bomb that would go off if the cat landed on its feet inside the box, triggering the switch on one side of the box. Now, while the box is spinning in space it's also being pulled into earth. The box is spinning at 8 revolutions per second. Once the box enters the earths atmosphere and begins to fall, will the bomb go off before or after it hits the ground?

lol
Well...

The box would never make it to the earth. Apriori knowledge.

Arcanis the Omnipotent

Arcanis the Omnipotent

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Nova Alliance

Me/

15 Apr 2006 at 01:58 - 77
Treewalker: Double Post much?

Cymboric Treewalker

Cymboric Treewalker

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Imperial Palace - Cantha

[SFK] Sacred Forge Knights (founder)

Me/Mo

15 Apr 2006 at 02:08 - 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent
Treewalker: Double Post much?
Very rarely do I double post... and most forum software makes it impossible.

I do however post a lot when responding to four pages of a thread when I am new to it... if only forum software would make it easy to quote multiple posts --- sigh.

Matsumi

Matsumi

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

15 Apr 2006 at 02:08 - 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cymboric Treewalker
Well...

The box would never make it to the earth. Apriori knowledge.
Ok, now take the same situation and subtract the idea of atmospheric burn, and say that the cat is now tied to string inside the box, and if the string gets pulled hard enough the bomb also goes off. So, now there's 2 ways to trigger the switch.

Cymboric Treewalker

Cymboric Treewalker

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Imperial Palace - Cantha

[SFK] Sacred Forge Knights (founder)

Me/Mo

15 Apr 2006 at 02:11 - 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsumi
Ok, now take the same situation and subtract the idea of atmospheric burn, and say that the cat is now tied to string inside the box, and if the string gets pulled hard enough the bomb also goes off. So, now there's 2 ways to trigger the switch.
Same answer ofcourse... the box would not make it to the earth. The cat would have babies and die before it did. Those babies would beget more cats and the leaking of radiation from the bomb would accelerate the genetic mutation in the species. Prior to the box entering the atmosphere the cats would evolve in to a two legged upright walking species that would workship fiji. These intelligent upright walking cats would engineer the box into a spaceship and never find their ultimate goal... but they would enjoy the company of a man named Lister and his companion Rimmer.