Frenzy vs Flurry vs Tigers Fury. Your thoughts?
Dr. Fire
Guys I have been playing around with speed ups in PvP. For the longest time I have been switching back and forth between Tigers Fury and Flurry. Draw back to TF is the points needed in BM (I put 4 in for 7 seconds) and the loss of non-attack skills for a few seconds. Flurry needs no points but you do 25%less damage. I never really paid attention to Frenzy. But that has changed as of yesterday. The big draw back to it is that you take double damage while it is activated. Obviously in PvP that could be the difference between a kill or your death. But I like using Melandru's Arrows in PvP for the + to damage to enchanted foes (majority of Monks) and the added bleeding as the condition. I played around with Flurry in the Random Arena, and as long as I used it carefully it worked great. I always take another stance like WD or SC, so if I get attacked while Frenzy is up I just activate the other stance and it cancels out Frenzy. What do you think about this? Make sense or am I FOS?
Thrawn Foxheed
You got the hang of using Frenzy in PvP, have a cancel stance to use when under fire. Flurry isn't too useful for a Ranger using a bow imo, mainly used by Warriors to build adrenaline and then using skills when Flurry has ended.
Personally I like Tiger's Fury but it's use can be conditional, i.e best not to use it when you're being attacked as it disables your defenses, so you practically blacked yourself out for 5 seconds.
Another advantage of using TF is it's a ranger skill, meaning you don't have to be a R/W to take advantage of it.
Personally I like Tiger's Fury but it's use can be conditional, i.e best not to use it when you're being attacked as it disables your defenses, so you practically blacked yourself out for 5 seconds.
Another advantage of using TF is it's a ranger skill, meaning you don't have to be a R/W to take advantage of it.
Dr. Fire
Excellent points. And I agree about the Warrior secondary requirement. I like running a R/N for the sole purpose of using Plague Touch since it is better to give than to receive, hehe. But I like running a 13-12-12 Ranger in PvP, so to put even 4 points into BM I have to bump one down, and I hate to do that. If running TF, I will swap out MA for either Poison Arrow (since it is a Bow attack), Barrage (for the added damage and spammability), or Punishing Shot (another interupt). But with MA Flurry is a nice 8 second speed up that can be kept up constantly, adds a condition, and adds major hate to enchantments as long as you aren't the target of the opponents. I am trying to talk myself into using it more than defending it's use to you all. Look forward to additional debate on this.
SnoopJeDi
Flurry is the best imo, if you're using any kind of damage modifier (Judge's Insight, OotV, any preparation).
The reason is that even without a modifier, you're balancing out your damage (actually, coming out on top I believe. 33% increased attack speed but 25% less damage). Once you add that boost in, you're coming out way ahead, and doing more damage. If you use flurry with Incendiary Arrows or Choking Gas in combination with a fast-refire bow, you're going to drive a target nuts with interrupts.
That said, I like TF, but I just can't spare the points in beastmastery sometimes.
The reason is that even without a modifier, you're balancing out your damage (actually, coming out on top I believe. 33% increased attack speed but 25% less damage). Once you add that boost in, you're coming out way ahead, and doing more damage. If you use flurry with Incendiary Arrows or Choking Gas in combination with a fast-refire bow, you're going to drive a target nuts with interrupts.
That said, I like TF, but I just can't spare the points in beastmastery sometimes.
Dr. Fire
Yea, that is conventional wisdom, but with Frenzy you get all that and no 25% penalty. So forget about "coming out ahead". Of course with any other secondary, other than Warrior, the argument is moot. Or, you have a Necro putting up the OotV for you. With Frenzy you come out even MORE ahead. point is you gotta be prudent with it if you are a target. I don't know, maybe I am putting to much into the benefit of no damage penalty, but what the heck, I can even live with double damage as long as I have a Monk on top of things, or TU up and running. And like I said, if you become the target of focus fire you are going to be kicking in Escape, WD, LR, or DD's anyway, no matter what speed up you are using.
Mordakai
I don't PvP, but can someone who does explain this to me:
When is a Warrior not under fire? How often do you actually use Frenzy? I must assume it's a lot, or else no one would take it...
When is a Warrior not under fire? How often do you actually use Frenzy? I must assume it's a lot, or else no one would take it...
Dr. Fire
This is a Ranger build using a Warrior secondary. Both Flurry and Frenzy are not attached to any attribute, so you need not put any points into any Warrior attribute line. Tigers Fury is the Ranger speed up, but it is in the Beast Mastery line. Unless you are a Beast Master no one usually wants to waste valuable points in BM. And most of the time in PvP, casters are the initial primary targets.
SnoopJeDi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Fire
Yea, that is conventional wisdom, but with Frenzy you get all that and no 25% penalty. So forget about "coming out ahead". Of course with any other secondary, other than Warrior, the argument is moot. Or, you have a Necro putting up the OotV for you. With Frenzy you come out even MORE ahead. point is you gotta be prudent with it if you are a target. I don't know, maybe I am putting to much into the benefit of no damage penalty, but what the heck, I can even live with double damage as long as I have a Monk on top of things, or TU up and running. And like I said, if you become the target of focus fire you are going to be kicking in Escape, WD, LR, or DD's anyway, no matter what speed up you are using.
You do have to be prudent about it, which is why I mainly don't use it. I can't always guarantee having a stance ready to cool frenzy off, especially with a long cooldown on most of them. Taking both might be an idea. Still, I think flurry is underused for the power it provides.
Jenosavel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordakai
I don't PvP, but can someone who does explain this to me:
When is a Warrior not under fire? How often do you actually use Frenzy? I must assume it's a lot, or else no one would take it... This is one of the aspects where PvP and PvE really diverge. In PvP, warriors are usually the very last people on your team who will be taking damage. The reason? The enemy team isn't stupid enough to uselessly try pounding through that armor. They'll try to drop people as quickly as possible, and thus that means they're going to be taking out the soft targets first. Thus, in PvP Frenzy is practically a staple of warrior builds.
When is a Warrior not under fire? How often do you actually use Frenzy? I must assume it's a lot, or else no one would take it... This is one of the aspects where PvP and PvE really diverge. In PvP, warriors are usually the very last people on your team who will be taking damage. The reason? The enemy team isn't stupid enough to uselessly try pounding through that armor. They'll try to drop people as quickly as possible, and thus that means they're going to be taking out the soft targets first. Thus, in PvP Frenzy is practically a staple of warrior builds.
swordfisher
But remember that everywhere frenzy goes, thus goeth a cancel stance. Otherwise, you're effectively a soft target yourself for 8 seconds at a time. Of course, these cancel stances are usually quite useful on their own merits, so it's not a loss. Flurry and Tigers Fury don't require a cancel stance, and TF (in my experience) actually discourages carrying a second stance because TF can be kept up nearly 100% of the time, even without a serious BM commitment.
Dr. Fire
Well thus far, Flurry and TF are winning this debate hands down. And I always take some type of defensive stance no matter the speed booster. So I think I like my R/N with Plague Touch and 4 points in BM to get the 7 seconds out of TF. With a R/W build Flurry seems the choice. I still may play with Frenzy for a bit for the heck of it.
Murder In China
Flurry last for 5 seconds and has a recharge time of 5 seconds, it also cost 5 energy. A warrior won't be able to keep spamming it forever.
Frenzy last for 8 seconds and has a recharge time of 4 seconds, it cost the same as Flurry but lasts longer and has a shorter recharge time. Less energy-intensive.
Tiger's Fury requires you place points in Beast Mastery. Most people place 9 points in Beast Mastery to get 9 seconds out of Tiger's Fury. but it's recharge is 10 seconds and it disables all your non-attack skills for 5 seconds. Tiger's Fury cost 10 energy which is something a warrior can't spam without the aid of a Zealous weapon.
For a ranger, I would use Tiger's Fury because of Expertise and the ability to place a rune in Beast Mastery. I wouldn't use Flurry because of its penalty of 25% less damage. Frenzy is an okay attack speed buff since you'll be in the backline and not the front.
Frenzy last for 8 seconds and has a recharge time of 4 seconds, it cost the same as Flurry but lasts longer and has a shorter recharge time. Less energy-intensive.
Tiger's Fury requires you place points in Beast Mastery. Most people place 9 points in Beast Mastery to get 9 seconds out of Tiger's Fury. but it's recharge is 10 seconds and it disables all your non-attack skills for 5 seconds. Tiger's Fury cost 10 energy which is something a warrior can't spam without the aid of a Zealous weapon.
For a ranger, I would use Tiger's Fury because of Expertise and the ability to place a rune in Beast Mastery. I wouldn't use Flurry because of its penalty of 25% less damage. Frenzy is an okay attack speed buff since you'll be in the backline and not the front.
Iskrah
A 7 second Tiger's Fury is fine with me when i'm using a physical damage build. Not like i'm not gonna send an interrupt or two anyway when the occasion comes. It costs basically nothing, 4 in Beast Mastery, which is 3+1 rune. It lets you max out Expertise and Marksmanship...
Misc Merik
I prefer frenzy in pvp. In pve its Tf because I dont really care If I cant use my -40 armor healing signet while being attacked.
Anarion Silverhand
Tiger's Fury caught my vote too. Barrage+ Tiger's Fury + Zealous String + Clustered enemies = Unlimited energy
fiery
Furry NEVER, frenzy is okay switch off with a stance when taking damage, ALSO tigers fury is also okay.
Huntmaster
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiery
Furry NEVER, frenzy is okay switch off with a stance when taking damage, ALSO tigers fury is also okay.
...What?
Anyway, if you're setup as a R/W, Frenzy is probably best with an extra stance that has a quick recharge to cancel frenzy, Sprint is probably your best bet at 20 sec recharge.
Anyway, if you're setup as a R/W, Frenzy is probably best with an extra stance that has a quick recharge to cancel frenzy, Sprint is probably your best bet at 20 sec recharge.
Iskrah
If you're set up as R/W, then you're not playing a good role in PvP (except for the Hammer Ranger, but then...). If you're playing PvE then you're under constant attack from mobs.
So no, nothing compares to Tiger's Fury reduced by expertise. Not even close actually.
So no, nothing compares to Tiger's Fury reduced by expertise. Not even close actually.
Valerius
TF hands down imo
SnoopJeDi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iskrah
If you're set up as R/W, then you're not playing a good role in PvP (except for the Hammer Ranger, but then...)
That's a blanket statement, and more importantly, it's wrong. I run a CG interrupter in PvP (granted, RA, but I have run it in TA with success) as R/W, and use flurry. Using flurry, I can keep "Watch Yourself!" up 99% of the time, with some downtime due to movement or emergency situations, etc. Not to mention, I'm getting plenty of hits, and therefore, interrupts.
That's a blanket statement, and more importantly, it's wrong. I run a CG interrupter in PvP (granted, RA, but I have run it in TA with success) as R/W, and use flurry. Using flurry, I can keep "Watch Yourself!" up 99% of the time, with some downtime due to movement or emergency situations, etc. Not to mention, I'm getting plenty of hits, and therefore, interrupts.
swordfisher
Yep, TF is one of the biggest reasons Thumpers can apply pressure. Basically, they make up for only having 12 Weapon Attribute over time by having that weapon flying 33% faster over a long period of time. A Beastmaster Thumper, perhaps the most common), has an 11 second /10r that costs 6e under expertise. In 11 seconds, the ranger has regened 11 energy, and can use a zealous hammer to enjoy the benefits. A hammer under IAS hits about every second; if they all hit, it's like having the net equivalent of two pips (minus the one taken by zealous mod) of regen.
Expertise is the other reason. It allows the Thumper to spam both stances and energy attacks with its two natural pips ( -zealous) and its additional two virtual pips ( +zealous).
Beastmaster Thumpers have pet attacks to complement the range of the hammer. Brutal strike is good for sealing the deal, dealing extra damage when the target is below 50% health. Disrupting Lunge is a spammable pet interrupt that refreshes every 8 seconds. Also, they have the extra autoattack damage from a pet. At 14 BM, the normal attack damage from a pet is significant, if not overwhelming. Combined with a consta-stanced turbo hammer, the Thumper can dish out quite a bit of damage.
(compare to this frenzy, which is a window that must be kept closed much of the time; the most important use of frenzy is in spiking, where the spike skills must follow each other rapidly)
Expertise is the other reason. It allows the Thumper to spam both stances and energy attacks with its two natural pips ( -zealous) and its additional two virtual pips ( +zealous).
Beastmaster Thumpers have pet attacks to complement the range of the hammer. Brutal strike is good for sealing the deal, dealing extra damage when the target is below 50% health. Disrupting Lunge is a spammable pet interrupt that refreshes every 8 seconds. Also, they have the extra autoattack damage from a pet. At 14 BM, the normal attack damage from a pet is significant, if not overwhelming. Combined with a consta-stanced turbo hammer, the Thumper can dish out quite a bit of damage.
(compare to this frenzy, which is a window that must be kept closed much of the time; the most important use of frenzy is in spiking, where the spike skills must follow each other rapidly)
Iskrah
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnoopJeDi
That's a blanket statement, and more importantly, it's wrong. I run a CG interrupter in PvP (granted, RA, but I have run it in TA with success) as R/W, and use flurry. Using flurry, I can keep "Watch Yourself!" up 99% of the time, with some downtime due to movement or emergency situations, etc. Not to mention, I'm getting plenty of hits, and therefore, interrupts.
Plenty of people have success in different arenas with IW Mesmers. It doesn't make it anything else than a crappy build anyway. If we're talking about PvP, I sure hope our standards are not only Arenas, but higher grounds such as HA or GvG. And if we're looking to make an efficient damage-dealer Ranger, it better be with higher standards considering how hard the task is.
You lose on 25% of your damage and chances are you can only focus on your Choking Gas target. Well, that's pretty limited. 1vs1. Better builds have plenty of targets, and the important ability of actually killing the opponent, like the "Blacklight" Necromancer or an E-Surger Mesmer...
Not only stop him from playing. Because you're exactly as inefficient if you're using CG without hurting the target.
You lose on 25% of your damage and chances are you can only focus on your Choking Gas target. Well, that's pretty limited. 1vs1. Better builds have plenty of targets, and the important ability of actually killing the opponent, like the "Blacklight" Necromancer or an E-Surger Mesmer...
Not only stop him from playing. Because you're exactly as inefficient if you're using CG without hurting the target.
SnoopJeDi
Could you point out a guild that participates in GvG or often does HA that uses a frenzy ranger?
Iskrah
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnoopJeDi
Could you point out a guild that participates in GvG or often does HA that uses a frenzy ranger?
I'm not in defense of Frenzy, it does no good on a Ranger. In higher ranked GvG, Rangers are certainly not using Frenzy, Flurry or Choking Gas, they are playing Poison/Crippler/StormChaser/Blackout, which doesn't use any Increased Attack Speed.
Shinobi Quicksilver
TF FTW!!!!!
SnipiousMax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iskrah
I'm not in defense of Frenzy, it does no good on a Ranger. In higher ranked GvG, Rangers are certainly not using Frenzy, Flurry or Choking Gas, they are playing Poison/Crippler/StormChaser/Blackout, which doesn't use any Increased Attack Speed.
I agree. Rangers focusing on damage, have to leave behind money skills...and end up losing their effectiveness.
Dr. Fire
I used Flurry in the RA for the better part of the day, yesterday and really had no trouble with the increased damage to me unless I wasn't vigilant about keeping Troll Unguent up or kicking in another stance if damage was significant. I also used it and a short bow with choking gas and pretty much shut down casters. Problem, of course, with RA is getting your teammates on the same page. I shut down and killed a Monk, only to find all my teammates were gone! lol! Gotta love the RA.
The Real Roy Keane
Flurry is a non runner in PvP if you're looking to be a damage dealer.
super dooper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iskrah
In higher ranked GvG, Rangers are certainly not using Frenzy, Flurry or Choking Gas, they are playing Poison/Crippler/StormChaser/Blackout, which doesn't use any Increased Attack Speed.
depends on the build, mister. flurry is the best choice for a choking gas ranger, partly because with a zealous string and hitting an expertise breakpoint, it's free and you can keep it up as often as you want... chances are if you're playing said character you aren't concerned about wtfpwnzing and doing 500 damage in two shots. you're playing it to screw up the enemy so your team can do that.
rangers are also good at keeping up watch yourself!, and carrying shields up!. aside from that silly comment about r/w's being offbase or not having a good role in pvp or whatever was said, i also agree that tiger's fury is probably the number 1 choice when looking to do damage with a ranger.
rangers are also good at keeping up watch yourself!, and carrying shields up!. aside from that silly comment about r/w's being offbase or not having a good role in pvp or whatever was said, i also agree that tiger's fury is probably the number 1 choice when looking to do damage with a ranger.
Iskrah
Quote:
Originally Posted by super dooper
depends on the build, mister. flurry is the best choice for a choking gas ranger, partly because with a zealous string and hitting an expertise breakpoint, it's free and you can keep it up as often as you want... chances are if you're playing said character you aren't concerned about wtfpwnzing and doing 500 damage in two shots. you're playing it to screw up the enemy so your team can do that.
It's fine. Do that, "mister". And use a whole bunch of shouts and stances, i rest my case, that one player will be subpar to what others can bring. You'll be sitting there with your Choking Gas who has limited mobility, and that can be stopped by simply annoying your Ranger any way you like. You can hide behind arguments like "you're just a spiker" (which i'm not), it's only to hide the inferiority of Choking Gas. It's constant interrupt for people who doesn't know how to time them. I rest my case, I prefer to learn how to time them, AND still be able to spread conditions like a mad man AND Blackout a monk 66% of the time if there is the need. Did you notice that EvIL, WM and Te used it at one point or another?
When it comes to disrupting others, I insist, if you sit there with Choking Gas, you miss out on a lot of options. It's a lazy option for subpar performances. You need a prep and an elite for something that in the end, does nothing but interrupt if only you're safe. That's not enough...
When it comes to disrupting others, I insist, if you sit there with Choking Gas, you miss out on a lot of options. It's a lazy option for subpar performances. You need a prep and an elite for something that in the end, does nothing but interrupt if only you're safe. That's not enough...
chris_nin00
You guys might want to check out this thread before delving in any further on the topic. It covers the key points of the debate and explains a lot of the aspects talked about here extensively.
Be careful. That thread was simply because it turned into personal attacks. Do not let that happen here or I will smite you all! Muahahhahahha!
Which one would I choose?
Flurry - No way in hell. 5 energy for 5 seconds of boosted attack speed with 5 second recharge? Talk about energy intensive. 25% less damage? No thanks. The only way I would use this is during farming when I'm building up adrenaline.
Tiger's Fury - I believe this should skill should only stay on a ranger's skill bar, for 2 reasons.
1) Ranger's have Expertise. It lowers the energy cost greatly.
2) It requires beast mastery. I would only need to spend 3 levels of attributes(+minor rune) to get 7 seconds of fun.
I'm not sure about giving this to warriors... again, it's energy intensive, unless you have a zealous mod, and you have to spend points into it. Become a W/R just for tigers fury? Denying all those other great skills in other professions? Nah.
Frenzy - 8 second duration of attack speed boost for 5 energy with 4 second recharge. This skill uses the least amount of energy and gives the biggest output of damage and duration. The double damage taken in? Warriors don't get attacked often, but when they do, all you need is another stance to knock it off.
Rangers = TF
Frenzy = Warriors
Be careful. That thread was simply because it turned into personal attacks. Do not let that happen here or I will smite you all!
Muahahhahahha!Which one would I choose?
Flurry - No way in hell. 5 energy for 5 seconds of boosted attack speed with 5 second recharge? Talk about energy intensive. 25% less damage? No thanks. The only way I would use this is during farming when I'm building up adrenaline.
Tiger's Fury - I believe this should skill should only stay on a ranger's skill bar, for 2 reasons.
1) Ranger's have Expertise. It lowers the energy cost greatly.
2) It requires beast mastery. I would only need to spend 3 levels of attributes(+minor rune) to get 7 seconds of fun.
I'm not sure about giving this to warriors... again, it's energy intensive, unless you have a zealous mod, and you have to spend points into it. Become a W/R just for tigers fury? Denying all those other great skills in other professions? Nah.
Frenzy - 8 second duration of attack speed boost for 5 energy with 4 second recharge. This skill uses the least amount of energy and gives the biggest output of damage and duration. The double damage taken in? Warriors don't get attacked often, but when they do, all you need is another stance to knock it off.
Rangers = TF
Frenzy = Warriors
Siren
I'll give my thoughts momentarily regarding the main debate here, but I wanted to address something first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iskrah
Quote:
Quote: and that can be stopped by simply annoying your Ranger any way you like. Anyone who relies on physical contact in the current game environment suffers from those annoyances, so how does that reflect negatively on Choking Gas?
Quote: You can hide behind arguments like "you're just a spiker" (which i'm not), it's only to hide the inferiority of Choking Gas. Choking Gas is far from inferior. It's one of the best interrupt skills in the game. And in the hands of a solid Ranger, casting anything other than Orison or RoF will be a nightmare.
Quote:
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It's constant interrupt for people who doesn't know how to time them.
I use Choking Gas, and I sure as hell know how to time Distracting Shot, Savage Shot, etc. So I don't think you've got a very cogent assessment there. Quote:
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