Defending/Attacking the fuzzy math concept.

since the new slots for sale brought the arguement back up....

heres my refined concept.

i think if Anet had come up with a better presentation, the 4+4=6 would have gotten a lot less flak.

Personally people hate fractions (not factions) so the 8(1/2) vs 6 whole is kinda confusing~~



I refined my theme park analogy better. ^_^ People love theme parks...

Theres a theme park and a water park next to each other. (Representing both games)

Theres a family of 4. A father, a mother, a son and daughter. They only buy season passes in sets of 4 (Representing 4 slots)

The family buys 4 season passes to the theme park. (Representing buying Chapter 1 only). Now the family can only go to the theme park and since season passes have pictures, only they can go to the theme park. No one else.

The next summer, the same family buys 4 season passes to the water park but not to the theme park (Representing buying Chapter 2 only). The season passes can only be used by the family of 4 and it means they can only access the water park.

Now. The next summer, the family decides to buy 4 season passes for both the theme park and the water park. (Merged account).

Even if the season passes were physically 8 cards, only the same family of 4 can go, because they have pictures on the season passes. (Meaning there would be only 4 slots for the merged account)

But wait a minute, the theme park and the water park have a special. If you buy 4 theme park passes and 4 water park passes, they give you 2 sets of passes for free. (Representing the two bonus slots)

So the family of 4 can bring along the girl's annoying boyfriend all the time, and the boy's best friend who always buys a soft serve to BOTH the parks as a bonus.

Plus If you have bought the family season pass set of 4 to either park, you can buy another season pass without buying a whole set of 4.

-----------

So to those who disagree with the concept. Using a similar or the same analogy, explain WHY you deserve 8 slots.

I prefer your explanation in your flash thread.

Factions: $50 (cost of expansion: $30 cost of 2 bonus slots $20)

With the fact that we will be able to buy additional slots for $10, it is easier to accept why we have 2 slots.

Note: All numbers are in USD. ^_^

maybe this will finally clear it up for the people whi didn't get it the first time

I would agree with this analogy....



if Anet's goal was to make my characters happy instead of me. I'm the one paying for the products, not my characters.

A more accurate analogy would be
One 4 hour ticket to theme park = $50
One 4 hour ticket to water park = $50
One 6 hour ticket to theme+water park = $100

Wouldn't you expect the package deal to be less then the full cost of both tickets or at the very least get the same content (8 hours)?

@OP : Good one. Funny read too. Thanks.

One minor addition: When the water park opens for service in the neighborhood, two relatives (Aunt A & Uncle Rt) actually come from the countryside and decide to squat in the family's house. Now, if you decide to buy only passes for the water park, auntie and unk will have to sit @ home. (Meaning the only people who would be royally screwed would be the hypothetical factions-only customers)

Here's what (IMO,OC) Anet should have done: Offer 5 slots for standalone factions. Standalone Prophecies stays at 4. When you merge, you instantly upgrade to the 5 slots offered by factions. But wait! You also get one bonus for the loyalty you displayed by owning both campaigns. Final total: 6 slots.

I think there would be less complaints this way, because it would be clearer that the 4 of the slots offered by GW: F are not new ones, but they correspond to the ones offered by GW: P. Also, those people (whom we know not to exist, but pretend anyway) who will buy GW: F as a standalone product would not be cheated off one char slot.

This, of course would only be agreed upon by those who are content with every class represented either as primary or as secondary in their slots and one PvP slot to spare. (3 unique class combos for P, 4 unique class combos for F and an empty slot for both)

The reality of course, is you'll find most of the people you targeted with your post, in fact, think they deserve not 8 but 9 slots - one for each primary and one for PvP. (I won't mention the deranged minority that wants one slot for every possible combo - 36 slots that is?)

You cant use the time analogy because you dont pay monthly fees. Guild Wars fees are up front and basically eternal. Which is closer to a season pass than a 4 hour ticket.

edit:

With a season pass, you can basically go one day for 2 hours...or go another day for 8 hours. Doesnt matter because you already paid. Most theme park season passes pay for themselves after 2-3 visits anyway. I think if you get 40-50 hours of gameplay out of GW, then its ALREADY paid for itself.

The hours were symbolic for character slots, not monthly fees. If I can't make that analogy then you can't make the analogy of a family of 4. I'm one person.

Simple math Lyra, i thought some deep calculus, and algorithms would do the trick

I don't really care about fuzzy math or rationalizations or anything. All I know is that I want 1 slot for each primary profession + 1 for PvP.
In other words, the problem is not their math. The problem is that the original product had 4 slots. If Prophesies had 7 slots and Factions had 9 slots I would be perfectly happy with Prophesies + Factions = 9 slots (even though mathematically I'm giving up my Prophesies slots)

See...why didnt you say that?

I've yet to find someone with a good explanation WHY they deserve 8 slots total with a merged account.

I completely agree that Prophecies should have had more player slots. If you see my profile, i only have 3 characters. 1 slot is reserved for PvP. Its very impractical, and annoying and it makes me want to buy another account.

HOWEVER.....I understand that since the game is free, money only comes from the initial purchase, and if we had 6 slots (or 7) there would be very little incentive to buy additional accounts.

That is the true problem.

I don't think that made it clearer for me. It actually made it worse.

When do you find time to play each of 1 primary profession *Plus* PVP?

eudas

Well summer is coming up...

Then again, ANet never offered us a good explanation why they put it at 6.

Errr.. why do people always ask questions with totally obvious answers.

You have x time. You spend x/a time playing your warrior; you spend x/b time playing your monk; you spend x/c time playing your mesmer; you spend x/d time playing your necromancer; you spend x/e time playing your ranger; you spend x/f time playing your elementalist; you spend x/g time playing PvP; where 1/a+1/b+1/c+1/d+1/e+1/f+1/g = 1.

The actual values of a,b,c,d,e,f,g and x are irrelevant. Anyone who spends any time playing at all (x>0) can, if they chose to, find the time to play each primary plus PvP.

It's a matter of setting priorities, not a matter of time.

You didnt read my opening post did you? How about any of the gaile chat logs?

~_~

I read your post twice over. I read every Gaile log I could get my hands on. I can only make out reasons why 6 isn't the rip-off people believe it to be. It doesn't answer the question why they don't go above and beyond the 'it's not a rip-off' level of service.

Also, all those 'explanations' work off the premise that the 4 slots for the original game are a desirable number to begin with, which isn't true in the minds of many people. Starting in a undesirable position, it's easy to argue that any improvement is in fact an improvement, but it doesn't guarantee we'll end up in a desirable position.

I never argued that it was a desirable position to have 4 to begin with.

Im just arguing that it makes MORE sense to give us 6 when merged, as opposed to giving us 8 slots when merged. Getting 8 slots doesnt make ANY SENSE.

Where did this "We deserve 8" come from? Desire.

This is the point im trying to drive.

We should only get 4, but they give us 6. Wether you like it or not, Anet's decision makes sense, based on how the game is set up.

Do I sound like a brainwashed Anet lackey? Sure I do! XD

But guess what...I WANT MORE SLOTS. Thats the fact. Not that we deserve it. Even with chapter 1. We were ALWAYS deprived of the 2 slots. Its only human nature to want more.

This is one of the best posts on the topic I've ever seen. I was just thinking something along the same lines. I always see posts like "well it's not as bad as XXGAMEXX". It reminds me of political commercials. "Vote for me because I'm not as bad as that guy".

shrug dont matter both ways. Like i said in the past people will always find a way to complain about ever tiny bit. You cant please everyone but ANEt's choice for providing extra slots is definitely a good move.

Too bad it came a day late since i bought me another account gah

You're the only one using the 'deserve' word. Desire is exactly why it makes more sense to sell 8 instead of 6. Keeping return costumers happy is one if the top priorities of any business. Apparently there's a higher priority at work here; one we can only guess at because ANet isn't spilling the goods. My guess here is, and it's supported by the new slot selling initiative, that the good old software industry meme of 'Why include this feature now if we can sell it to them later?' is at work here.

And let me be the first to concede that that's all well and good. They're a company, they need to make money. It's just a little weak to hide behind pointless 'marketing math' that tries to force logic-that-really-isn't past our common sense.

The higher priority is almost certainly an effort to prevent account sharing. At least that's what I got out of the long discussions on guild-hall around a year and a half ago on the matter.

Peace,
-CxE

Thank you for being honest about what you want, which is 7+2+1=9 and not 4+4=8 (with the hidden +1 and the final sum of 9) -- people were driving me crazy to use the 4+4=8 equation to imply that basic mathematics were undeniable proof that their demands MUST be met. This tells me you are not one of those unthinking whineys and so I can tell everyone that I agree with you on this part wholeheartedly without fear of association with a crybaby.

Yes, the original number of slots were not desirable. Yes, even though the increase in numbers (1 slot per new class) is perfect, we do not end up with a desirable number of slots, because we started with a wrong number in the first place. Yes, I do want 9 slots, even though I don't PvP yet.

However, (the rest of my post is not directed at you, WetWookie)

We, the players, are in a business relationship with ArenaNet. As much as we love each others, we essentially are not a big family nor a big band of friends. They are in this to make money. We are in this to have fun. They supply the fun, we pay them. Business.

Gli, I will be quoting you now, not to direct the following at you, but to offer my view on what you stated, for everybody to consider.
Now, in business, one has to balance the honesty factor. If the business is pure money-making and no honesty, it is called a scam. If a company tries to put all their honesty on top of their money-making, well, they would be scamming themselves, since it wouldn't work. A company will not be successful by coming out and saying "We want you to like us better than our competitors so that you will keep doing business with us and therefore we can make more money, which is what this is all about". Instead they say the diplomatic thing to say: "We want to serve you better".

ArenaNet really does want to sell us more than one copies of the game. ArenaNet really does want us to buy every upcoming chapter, more than one copies, if possible. At the very least, ArenaNet wants to sell us character slots. It is their business plan. Since they are not charging monthly, they wish to make their money in this way. They cannot do this if they give us all the slots we can use and continuous free updates like the SF.

But they cannot come out and "offer an explanation" about this either and unless the lack of honesty exceeds the "scam threshold", it is not called dishonesty. It is the subtle nuance present in what is called "professionalism". The fact that they want (need) us to keep buying is unspoken but (supposedly) universally understood. A professional supplier does not speak of some things and a professional client (yes, there is such a thing) understands it and silently respects it as long as xe believes the deal is still good value for xes money and does not violate xes interests more than it benefits xim.

But all the time, there are customers who do not grasp this concept and scream "bloody conspiracy" when they sense the underlying money-making plan. In fact, it is no conspiracy, it is not even secret, and those who understand the true meaning of "professionalism" and the diplomatic "dishonesty" involved in it will silently ignore their screams and patiently wish they would stop embarassing them.

I always knew they would offer additional slots for purchase one day. I expected one slot to be priced at about $15 (slightly more than the price of one retail copy /4, since an extra slot is better value than an empty new account/4 with the merging aspect) and pleasantly surprised to learn that they decided to offer the slots for their current price. There are people who claim the slots would be more "reasonably priced" at about 3-5 bucks. I silently ignore them.

To sum up, I understand why people want more (hell, I want more) but for the life of me, I cannot understand how people cannot see why they cannot have more.

Oh, by the way, (not kidding or being sarcastic here) I want 25 slots. 8 for Tyria pre-searing, 8 for Tyria post-searing, 8 for Cantha, and 1 for good measure so they would sit in a neat 5x5 grid on the login screen. This number may go up, if I like the Factions tutorial area as much as I like the pre-searing.

Ahh, but Ensign, they are willing to milk the people with 2 accounts.
Their logic gets worse by the second.


Also, how does setting up an arbitrary slot number prevent account sharing?
I am curious.

And where did 4 and 6 come from? Greed.
Makes 'desire' reasonable to me.

Elaborate please?


I dont think its arbitrary at all. Each slot is a primary with a secondary. 3 slots would allow 3 primaries and 3 secondaries, enough to unlock most/all of the skill sets.


Find me someone who doesnt want 6 slots for Prophecies and 8 slots for factions.

Since i dont have to pay a monthly fee, im fine with having only 4 slots total and only pay $50 for an account i can use forever.

Theres a set back to everything. You cant have your cake and eat it too.

If i want to use Apply Poison, i have to deal with the 15 energy cost. If i want to use Meteor Shower, i have to deal with the long casting duration.

I understand the nature of the beast.

So far...this sums up all of the anti-6-slot arguments into one senseless rambling. (That doesnt make sence)


Its simple to understand why we are getting what we are getting. I dont see why everyone thinks it is so hard, or why anyone cares anymore with the ability to buy slots.

How does my post make any less sense then the opening post. If you have nothing to add to the conversation other then bashing the people who disagree with you then don't post at all.

lyra makes post that I disagree with. However she is not just bashing. She is trying to explain how she feels. I respect that. But just coming on and saying "I disagree with you so you must be rambling senslessly are you're an idiot because you don't agree with me" is just stupid.

The logic here is flawed. The logic is actually this:

New stand alone game which can not be interfaced with other games: $40
Result: Everyone is fine with that.

New stand-alone game which can be interfaced with another stand-alone game to produce added content: $40.
Result: Bitch & Moan.

I hate the "I'm getting ripped off argument."

If Anet said that merging Factions with Prophecy netted you 8 slots, but then only gave you 6... they would be ripping you off. They did not deliver what they promised.

But, Anet has said clearly what you get by merging Factions with Prophecy. It cannot be a ripoff, because you know what you are getting.

So now, it's everybody's choice what to do: Buy Factions or Not. It's really that simple, this argument over slots is a moot point.

It seems the majority of people are very happy about the situation. Most of the posts on both of the "new character slots" threads have thanked Anet for offering something they have been requesting since day one. Why does the opposing group, not agreeing with the cost or amount of extra slots, keep trying to convince everyone else otherwise?
It would seem to me that if you dont like the idea, you dont have to pay for it. You can complain to the customer support or the Devs but I doubt they'll listen, since an obvious majority of people are excited by the idea of having more slots.

What exactly is that supposed to mean? Businesses take money from people who want to buy more of their products OH MY GOD THAT IS SO UNETHICAL.

ARENA.NET IS MILKING ME FOR $50 WITH EVERY RELEASE I HATE THEM FOREVER.

What, exactly, would you propose they do? Kindly tell people who want a second copy of the game "no, I'm sorry, we can't do that, selling you something you want would be 'exploitation'"?


Because clearly people find multiple character slots desirable - some people have gone far enough that they've bought additional copies of the game. It discourages account sharing for exactly the same reason, because people want more than one character and the space gets cramped extremely quickly if you only get half an account's space.

In other words the account 'size', in terms of character slots and storage space was carefully chosen to be large enough for *most* people, while still not being nearly enough for two people. Are there people sharing accounts because they're finding a way to fit within a single account's space? Yes. Are there people who want additional space badly enough to buy another account? Yes. Are they a large market segment? Not if they chose the size correctly.


No, they didn't come from greed. People love to throw that word around and destroy the meaning of it. It is not a word that applies to normal wants and desires. It is a term that applies to wants and desires that are in *gross excess* of what is reasonable.

Oh, those greedy businesses trying to make money! Oh, those greedy players, trying to get a game they want to play! Nothing is reasonable anymore!

Are people in this thread really so stupid as to believe that the reason for a character slot limit was to encourage people to buy second accounts? Do you honestly believe they were sitting around trying to figure out just how few character slots people would put up with getting from an account before they just stopped buying the game? I can virtually guarantee you that people buying second accounts was not a significant factor in the decision to set an account at four character slots.

I can also guarantee that all of these issues about shared accounts and potential lost sales were brought up when discussing selling additional slots, as well as a bunch of other legal issues, and the only reason you can expand your account slotwise is because they expect to make enough money off of the dedicated gamers to make up for any lost sales due to account sharing.

Peace,
-CxE

Oh dear god, not again. Please, not again.

When will they understand? I beseech you, LISTEN. This calls for some caps lock action:

YOU ARE NOT GETTING RIPPED OFF. Nope. Not getting ripped off. Allow me to analogize; anyone ever play games like Baldur's Gate, or (going back further) the Krynn games? Back in the day games like these were released, and each one was totally stand-alone. Each game was completely independent of each other, function-wise. Except for one thing: you could import saved characters from one game into the next one. This is pretty much what Guild Wars Factions allows you to do. BUT IT IS TWO WAY. That's right, folks! You can go back... and forth.

An even better analogy of mine involved stoves, pizzas, and American versus European voltage. Maybe it went over some people's heads; I never did see it referenced anywhere else. But I might as well trot it out again. If I convince people - if I convince anyone - if I convince even one person - if I convince only one person - it will be worth these last couple minutes, in order to have one less ignavus stultissimus cavorting about.

I'll put up that oven bit as soon as I unearth it...

the truth. Really, people say that Anet limited the account from greed, but they'd think different if they're the budget manager.

For the last time:
Software companies write code to MAKE MONEY, not to make players happy. Yes, making players happy goes a long towards making more money, and the Anet staff may even have more amiable secondary reasons for wanting to please players. But the primary and ultimate goal is still to MAKE MONEY.

And yes, we all want more char slots, and no none of us wants to pay more for it. But you know, Guildwars has to get upkeep somehow without subscription fees. And if you think about it, this way is STILL tons better than all the other subscription mmorpgs. IMO, Anet spoiled its customers to the point where they complain even when excellent deals are staring at them right in the face.

Woo! Found it...

LMAO @ Cjlr

Exactly.. Although i doubt most will agree with your analogy....

Quoted piecemeal to save space and make a point.

I would have to agree with Ensign on this for the most part. I think he hit the nail on the head that they were probably trying to limit sharing of accounts. However, just like he says they probably didn't think the benefits of one person buying multiple accounts were great enough, I don't think they really considered casual gamers/families sharing a single account was a problem either.

If you look at everything else, I think it goes back to professional farmers (non-bots). While it may be true that many share a single character, in a few interviews I've read and people I've chatted with, each farmer in a decent sized operation will have his/her own character on an account (customized their own specific way following, of course, the manager's guidelines overall). A good majority of the things that I see happening are a result of, or seem intended on hurting the pros (whom most of us have no sympathy for).

It goes back to the Diablo instances where hackers and pro farmers screwed up quite a bit of the game. Having said that, I think they purely did not want to save the managers any money by offering large amounts of slots. I don't think it had anything to do with anything else. It's part of their crusade against farmers. simple.

The one extra slot, however, that they were originally going to offer, was probably due to their plan to offer buyable slots (which they probably knew about beforehand). I think the recent outcry caused them to announce it early. Players are happy and the farmers will at least have to pay part of their income (mangers rather) if they want more. I believe the issue is settled and no amount of praise or protest from either side will change anything.

Remember, a big difference between East and West gaming is the micro-transaction business. They may eventually try bringing it over here slowly but surely. XBox Live is trying the same thing. You can't just spring something on someone. You instead introduce it piece by piece. If it works over there it can probably work over here.

To the OP.. I think since the issue is over and you are on the pleased side (I'm pleased as well since I don't need a ritualist), bringing this back up doesn't seem a good idea. Maybe that's just me, though.

As far as the analogy, I have to disagree, though. I think it would be like the water park and theme park both offering a coupon book with their season passes (as most do). If I buy two passes for myself (there's only one person we're talking about getting anything, not 4, as those are characters and I don't care if they get what they want), the question is more like whether I still get a coupon book with each pass (and access to each park) or if I just get one. If, like Six Flags, the coupon books are good at all parks, collectively, then they would both be valid at both parks (4 + 4 characters accessing 2 continents). If they are not affiliated with each other, or if the coupon books are only valid at the participating park then it would be more like 4 for Prophecies, and 4 others for Factions. ArenaNet is the two-park owner, so they actually decide(d) which it was: a third option that gives you 1 and a half coupon book that's good for both parks (in the middle of the two).

I got my 1 pve slot (assassin) and 1 pvp slot so basically: I got mine :-)

I think I'm on the same side as you on this issue (it's done and over), but I can't stand always seeing that argument. They knew what they were getting into when they offered a non-subscription based system. I'm sure they were aware of that when they set their pricepoint to what it is now. If you're going to justify stuff like that, do it for the reason Ensign and others (and I) have stated. You make it sound like they either 1) made a poor decision to offer a non-subscription system/bad initial pricepoint, or 2) got people into thinking it would always be 'free', while planning on adding all kinds of micro-transactions from the beginning.

Also, please quit comparing it to MMORPGS. They've stated (even though they favor comparisons in reviews) that they are not an MMORPG. Consider it more like a centrally-hosted Dungeon Siege (or NWN), with the cities being really large lobbies, except that characters can go back AND forth. Well.. at least the PvE portion of it.

Wouldn't the theme park scenario work more like this:

Family of 6 plans on going to the park. Tickets, however were only sold in packs of four. So for all family members to get in, though be seperated once in, they had to purchase two packs.
A new section of the park opens up and now the family can all get in, but since then, they've had out of town family come to stay with them, for a total of eight people now.
With the new attractions in the park, the park has added two spots to the admision packs. Again, the family needs to purchase another admision pack to gain access the new attractions and find themselves apart once in.
The park seeing the issue, has now started to sell single admission tickets.

In anycase, I'm beyond pleased with the option to add more slots for my account. I can now (or will anyway) be able to play each primary class as I have always wanted without deleting (which I had to do rescently *whimper*) another character I enjoyed playing. /does the happy dance

@Mordakai - didn't we "meet" in the original slot thread? lol - sorry, OT.

I keep tellin' ya, the theme park analogy is flawed. What you're looking for, is a stove analogy. Which I believe I posted earlier.

Did you really only play the game 4 hours? If you didnt, your post makes no.....I give up......Believe whatever you want. If being wrong makes you happy, who am I to argue?

An actual accurate analogy would be:
4 lifelong tickets to theme park = $50
4 lifelong tickets to water park = $50

4 lifelong tickets to theme+water park = $100
. +2 bonus lifelong tickets to both parks.

My take on the fuzzy math. This is just for grins n giggles

Buy Prophecies or Factions alone - 4 x 50 = 200
Buy both but do not combine - 8 x 50 = 400
Combine the two - 6 x 100 = 600
Add two more slots - 8 x 100 = 800

Thus, our $50 only got us 200/50 = 4 points of fun per $1
Spend $100 but don't combine gives you 400/100 = 4 points of fun per $1
Spend $100 and combine gives us 600/100 = 6 points of fun per $1
But wait, spend $120 (2 more slots) and combine gets 800/120 = 6.67 points of fun per $1
Hold on though, if we look at the $20 for the 2 additional slots, that gets you 200 points. Thus, we have 200/20 = 10 points of fun per $1

The original game only gave us 4 points of fun per $1 though. What a ripoff.

Next chapter, 2 more slots, another $50 and another 50 points of content - 8 x 150 = 1,000
1,000/150 = 6.67 points of fun per $1
Add another 2 slots then, 10 x 150 = 1,500
1,500/170 = 8.8 points of fun per $1
So another $20 during Chapter 3 gets you an additional 500 points of fun for $20 so
500/20 = a whopping 25 points of fun per $1. (Illegal in most states, I believe)

This is only going to get better with each chapter. Maybe Anet should start taking away character slots from us after chapter 4.

The equation that works for me (and for many other):
Great game + No monthly fee = Lotsa buyers no matter how much they might whine and moan.