Cutting profession ideas some slack..

Okay, this is just a general issue post that I feel is rightfully needed, judged by the posts I've been seeing lately.

Many people have been coming up with new professions which are rather interesting for the most part, some not so interesting. But none the less, before you post please think it out.

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Here are a few steps you should consider before posting...

1. Just because an idea is not so great that doesn't mean to you have to bash it. By bash I mean simple comments like "wow stupid" or "lol plz no fan boy classes", these don't contribute at all. Type out why you dislike it, atleast 5 sentences; I mean for the most part we're all young adults/adults. So show it.

2. Guild Wars has done a very good job at creating the GENERIC classes. Ex: Warrior (Tank), Ranger (Support), Mesmer (Build Wrecker), Monk (Healer), Necromancer (Dark caster), Elemantist (Wizard), Assassin (Rouge). With these generic classes its very hard to create new professions that aren't overlapping. Even the Ritualist is an overlapping profession (N/R/Mo) according to many people even including Anet. So with this said, please no "wow we already have a W/N we don't need this" Because a Warrior with plague touch is very far from something like a Dark Knight.

3. If the person put the time and effort into making his or her post (and it is noticable). Compliment them, obviously they took a portion of their time to contribute to the community.

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And with that being said, I'd hope the posting quality of the viewers on this thread increases.

/signed

I like constructive criticism...

/signed. Way too many people just post "lame, unoriginal, too noobish" and don't even think enough to type out what works and what needs improvement.

/Sign

expect on Nevin's CC thread....

I enjoy constrocutve critism too /signed

although some people really do need ot think about their builds, it does annoy me a bit to see unbalanced, un thoughtout concepts. Also the concepts which pretty much are a W/Mo etc generally dont do anything for me, as I've seen a few (not here) which had just recycled W/Mo skills with diff names, so it oculd be combined with another secondary class to make that persons ultimate choice of char.

I think as long as people are inteligent and thoughtful in their concepts and try to keep originality and balance, then theres no reason people should flame, Fan-boy cocnepts or no.

/signed

Sometimes I just get the feeling that a person just came in, read the first few lines of it, then decided to post a comment that doesn't really make sense. I mean, if you can't read the whole thing and take it in for a while, what's the point of leaving a comment about it? lol sorry, just the way I feel sometimes.

Wholeheartily agreed.
Well written, Nevin.

Cheers, mate.

But I quite like flaming.

"Signet of Approval"

*Slithers back into the dark shadows to watch and inspect the new classes as usual....* Buwahahahaha!

/signed.

Personal opinions arn't justification to offend a writer, or hack an idea. If you don't like it, or arn't interested, then that's all you need to say. Unless you can point out some serious flaws in the way that class works, you have no right to critisize it, subjective opinions arn't a license to critisize, they are just your personal interests.

There is a difference between
"I just don't like it" as oppose to "This Class suck"

Opinion is fine, but if you generalize things, give reasons.

My view?

Anet is not without a lot of sources of inspiration. If it is a character class like that in ANY other online game, or heck, in any role-playing game, just consider that it has already occurred to them.

You think it'd be great to be a big barbarian specialising in dual wielding and two-handed weapons? Guess what, they've thought of it. There is absolutely NO POINT in bringing up drivel like that.

UNLESS you have an interesting new mechanic (and not something stupid like dual wielding or stealth, as both of those have been discussed a million times) don't bother posting. The ritualist comes with a set of new mechanics - spirits with constant attacks in areas, a primary attribute boosting the health of conjured creatures and ashes - all interesting stuff. I don't think anyone would have shot down the ritualist had it bee suggested here, as it
1.) is original
2.) suggests new mechanics
3.) plays differently (and this IS an important consideration - if you read the early stuff by ANet from when GW was in development they wanted each class to have a different play-feel to them,)

So, since the ritualist uses many area-control tactics, with new skill types and mechanics, in an interesting thematic package it'd likely get great feedback. The millionth "I want a martial artist who can punch through armour" thread will get jeers.

So - if you've got an idea, great - develop it into something worth posting. A "Dark Knight" is just a W/N unless you have developed a whole new mechanic for it, and it has a different playstyle. Even the assassin is a bit iffy, but with the hexing/enchanting/shadow step stuff they've managed to differentiate it enough from a warrior that I don't fnid it too bad. I was really worried it'd essentially be a R/W - stances, weak armour but lots of evasion and concentrationg on high attack speed while using more energy-based attacks.

I agree that we shouldn't be rude, but it's somewhat pointless to suggest a barbarian or brawler, or shapeshifter, or any of these classes. Remenmber that the people coming up with the game read the same books you did, and played the same games. It's not like they don't have a D&D manual around, or that they don't know about Diablo 2 or WoW. These are industry experts, and unless you can back your idea up a bit it's not worth suggesting it.

That's my view. If you spit out a 4 page suggestion which basically reads as a class from WoW you've wasted my time, your time, the readers of the board's time and the developer's time. We're all aware of these games. You aren't bringing anything new to the table. If you come up with a neat idea that is feasible in game, great!

What I'd like to see myself in this forum, is less one word posts. More specifically /signed and /unsigned. Fewer "thats a horrible idea" posts, and more well thought out replies that actually add to the discussion.

Though I'd like to see this for all threads in Sardelac, not just ones on new professions...

Yes. Like in the skill suggestion threads especially....

Tiny flaw in your arguement. The application of even an overused class to a new set of boundries/criteria still constitutes creativity and deserves a place on the board. If you still consider it a useless thread, don't bother with it, then you won't have wasted your time.

Most of the "good" ideas don't come around till the 2-5th concept class. You have to mull through the generic ideas to get the gears working.

Thanks Nevin. It seems to me alot of people around here have just been shooting down ideas in general, not just Concept Classes. I think if you have nothing constructive to say, then just don't say it.

so people like me can just say 5 sentances of flame?

heres 5 sentances:

"wow this is probably the worst idea ever. why do you think this would work? god you are such a noob. anet will never take your class suggestion. please dont waste space on the internet for such bad ideas?"

just a thought

Some of the concept classes I see here are plain ridiculous or other game rip-offs. Not to mention it's not like the dev team will actually use these concepts. This forum simply expands on lore and, don't get me wrong, I think this is wonderful, but the actual practical usefulness of it is limited. So, I hear you there when you say people should really ask themselves some basic questions be4 posting these concept classes and I support the idea, I just don't think it's going to yield any better results gamewise.

I honestly don't mind if the class being suggested has a basis in some other source, so long as it brings something tactically and thematically unique to the table, as Epinephrine said. In fact, I think a class has more credibility if it has some basis in something we recognize.

The Ritualist is essentially a shaman. I absolutely love the way he casts spells, as they all suggest this theme. I like familiarity. If it's completely made up with no borrowed inspiration from history then it just seems like a cheesy comic book character to me. And if it completely doesn't fit the theme of Guild Wars, it's all the cheesier. And let's double the cheese when the class is clearly overpowered, as so many people love to go crazy with the power without thought of actual balance.

I'm sorry, but the very thing I don't like about many of the class suggestions is the cheese. I can try to express why it's a poor idea politely by listing those cheese factors, but after so many suggestions it's not like people listen to that "constructive" criticism. If it's really constructive then how come it isn't contructing? How come the cheese keeps flowing when people have been told time and time again what the cheese is and why it should stop? After a while, it's no wonder people post those short, disgruntled replies.

And perhaps they read the concept classes because they hope to find something interesting, only to be hopelessly disappointed once again. I don't buy the "you can just not read it" arguement.

Although, I guess I'm playing devil's advocate, since I don't post in those cheese-ridden threads anyway. Personally, I kind of doubt anything will come of class suggestions, good or bad.

Fair enough but the:

"You don't have to say anything", or the
"You can stop reading if you don't like it" arguments still apply.

The OP ask for not to flame other, but to give out a better and more constructive feedbacks.

To your 5 sentance, I ask;
Why do you think it is the worst idea ever? You did not give out any reason, nor did you state that it is your opinion alone. Unless you are a representive of A.net, or have been part of the Development process for new class, I don't see why you can call other a noob. Given that a.net might not take such class for suggestion, keep in mind that this is posted at a "SUGGESTION FORUM", where for other of similar interst to view and comment on.

You can flame all you want, if you need something like that to make youself feel better. But as OP is encouraging, if you don't have anything good to say, don't say it.

Most concept classes aren't so bad... until people start going "omg I w4nt to be a dr4g0n b4ll Ze3 karakter".

meh... i usually find a few skills thatll never work, look at the armor and energy and try to figure out whats going through their mind... THEN add some critisism to maintain the balance which is VERY hard to equalize, ive spent a long time going through skils ive made up and trying to figure out how they are abusable... but i usually give a reason unless i think its painstakingly obvious (trying to resist urge to name people )

90% of the time i give good construtive critisism

Perhaps a Character Concept Submission Guideline. I find that ideas which include well-thought-out formats, a good number of sample skills, armor concepts, and other useful nformation is treated much better than a paragraph describing a vague thoughtform that almost resembles a concept character. While no one but a lunatic is going to get as in-depth as I did with the Pit Fighter, depth helps absorb flames.

Well over half of the class suggestions dont even consist of 5 sentances. I am not going to give them a responce any longer than 10% of their post. (Unless it is a good idea, and not a repost of a repost of a repost)

/not signed

how is this gonna improve guild wars, anet doesn't have to listen to those people.

Actually, Here is a question that I want to ask.

When you (refering to those people who made, or will make) a concept class, who is your audience? Do you want the A.net to read and take it into consideration, or simply for the viewing pleasure of the community?

I make my CC for several reasons.
1, as a creative challenge, an output for creativity.
2, as a pratice for writing concepts.
3, to get feed back from the commnity, to evalulate if my ideas is good or back
4, Stuff to do, and writing off replies.
5, For the possiblity that A.net would read, and while to be sure that they won't take the idea word by word, but if a version of it was use, you will get the "special prop".
6, possiblity to better gaming
7, Playing as a mock dev.
8, To add on some reputation withing forum, allow you to carry a "louder voice" if you have done a CC that many people like and found it to be blance
9, maybe increase your forum level.

People may have noticed this in posts I've made, both here and in gwonline.net (where I post as Stardrake) - but I agree with Epiniphrine. With the primary/secondary profession system, Guild Wars is essentially based on generic professions - specific classes such as paladin, dark knight, and so on are, in my opinion, intended to be built from the basic building blocks of the existing professions rather than made as new professions.

Mixing capabilities is fine, to an extent. As people have noted, the ritualist and assassin both essentially mix capabilities of existing professions - however, they do it in a different way. The way I see it, the main difference between a warrior and an assassin is that the warrior is a steady combatant, staying in the battle continuously - they do have spikes, yes, but most of these are adrenaline-based, with the adrenaline system providing a reward to stay in the front constantly. Assassins have no such reward, and instead seem to be aimed towards a spike-retreat-spike mentality - an entirely different style of play. Likewise, the ritualist does overlap a little in capability, but they perform their role in an entirely different manner to, say, a Monk - even when they're performing 'conventional' magic instead of laying down spirits, the skills have enough of a different 'flavour' that it's not simply another class using healing prayers - the power is clearly coming from a different source, even if it has similar results. This is a distinction I don't often see in new classes - often, there are skills or even entire attribute lines where I think 'why not just take X as a secondary?'

So, when I make criticism, it's usually along these lines - most of my advice can be boiled down to making the profession generic and letting people make their own combinations. Most of my criticism is usually aimed towards this objective - I really do think that generic profession concept is more likely to be picked up if ANet is looking at the suggestions, and any elements that encroach significantly on another profession will be stripped out (and possibly inserted into the appropriate profession if they like the idea enough).

Anyway, to use this opportunity to give some advice to people making professions: To make people like me happy, start your writeup by describing what generic concept you see your profession as filling, and how that cannot be effectively filled by existing professions (remember that existing professions can be given new skills too! Think about the general concepts, not specific skills - and if there's a capability that would fit in an existing profession and it's not there, there may be a reason). If you're feeling really ambitious, you could even give suggestions about how your profession can be combined with others to give specific character concepts.

Also, to all those who've had posts from me: If I've commented, that means I've read through the concept, at least skimmed through the skills, and thought there was enough potential in the profession to be worth extracting. Since I'm somewhat cynical towards fan submissions as a rule, this is this is worth a word of congratulations.

On topic reply:
All those who browse and read the contents of these forums.

Yes, I want ANET to read it and take it into consideration.
Also for the viewing pleasure of the community, of course.


Commentary:
Do you know why the "Assasin" is one of the new professions in Chapter 2?

A year ago, since Guild Wars: Chapter 1 's release, people have been screaming for an "Assasin" or "Rogue" profession. Those who have been browsing GWG for the whole year would know.

Every now and then, someone would suggest that "Assasins" or "Rogue" be made as a viable profession in Guild Wars. Then, the rest of the community would bash it to the ground, because the "Assasin" simply has been mentioned far too many times already.

So, what did ANET do about this?
They decided to go on and make an "Assasin".


Therefore, my conclusion is, if an idea has a lot of support, is accepted by a lot of people. ANET would probably take it into consideration.


Shameless advertisement:
The concept class that I am currently working on: Defiler
Any form of feedback, is much appreciated.
Thank you.
Cheers.

Guidelines for posting CCs would help, I may post some, but I'm iffy about doing so without community consultation as to what should go in and what shouldn't.

I don't think a strict guild line is needed. Just tell them to go look at other's more ogranized layout of their CC should be good enough. However, should put up a list of what to keep in mind...such as
-should be different enough from the current proff or proffesion combos.
-give it some "Nitch", something unique to that class.
-Details is good. Paint your audience a picture (with words)
-Use X, 2N, or Numbers should be good enough
-Try to keep it blance. Think not only how it could kill, but how to kill it. (right Ken?)
-Consider some possiblity when combo with other proff.

-Enjoy it.

lol...

After all, the monsters have professions too...

What the hell? It wasn't ment to be signed... Its just common curtesy.

Game Suggestions and Ideas
Have the next big idea for a profession, in-game event, skill or want to see something changed? Post your ideas here.


theres the description of this area on guru, go complain somewhere else.

Something to consider... while it is fun to dream and make a whole intricate skillset and everything, I doubt ANet would adopt it for one good reason. Legality.

Mind you I'm only speculating here, but I've seen this come up in several other games and have heard the reply from the developers that they do not want to copy someone's idea too closely or else they risk some potential legal issues. Even if you fully endorse them taking and using their idea, they won't go with it.

Obviously they wouldn't mind taking general ideas with a vague theme and all. That's something they can work with.

Just keep in mind that something like this may be a concern of theirs.

Of course, why the hell would they adopt the concept classes verbatim on this forum? They suck!

Bumped because I've been noticing a lot of posts lacking quality lately...