Cookie-cutter group mentality

I feel your pain however it's a simple matter to swap professions as I did, in order to get into Tomb groups. The reason why R/Mo is preferred is because no one wants a party wipe. As long as one person has rebirth you can bring the entire team back if you are careful. It's an insurance policy. I run R/Me most of the time as my little mini profile indicates, although I run my own special build on that one , which while shared here, was generally panned over so no nerfage on it thank god. When I do Tombs I just map to the desert talk to the ghost hit the make me a monk and bam I'm a monk with rebirth. I do my tomb runs then I go back and make me a mesmer and bam I'm a mesmer. You have to realize though that tombs is a lengthy run and a party wipe about half way through is disheartening. The fact of the matter is that even the best groups can suffer these set backs and frankly res signet doesn't cut it. You need a reusable ressurection.

Just get a decent guild.

The main reason cookie cutter builds are wanted is because they are easy to organize and better chance your party will work together well.

After a year of GW players have discovered what works and what doesn't. Thus the creation of the cookie cutter. Innovation can only last so long when the skill list never changes.

many of you hit on the main p;roblem with the cookie cutter builds ... everyone has to know thier role. many dont. they just read a build here or on some other forum and start advertising SS/SV LFG, without know how/when/where to use the skills

assuming they know, is dangerous at best, but yet the lie, out of necessity, cause they cant get a group otherwise

its a self fulfilling prophecy, without proper communication. yet what can be settled in a few minutes, tops, usually turns into F'n Noob flame wars and people getting booted.

the final thiung ill say on this is that the "efficiency" of any group or build is directly related to the people behind the keyboard, not the build itself. a good ranger is better than a bad MM or SS in SF anytime and etc...

becouse they chosed to , you can always try to make in your creative way but remember the people on the other side are people with a free will and if they dont want do it on creative way , you cant do nothing about that.

Another thing that bothers me is the insinuation that people who don't want to bother running unique builds through PUG's somehow "don't get" Guild Wars. I'm sorry I thought hte point of the game was to have fun? I don't think anyone will disagree with me there. Now Fun is subjective. What is fun to one person is boring or frustrating to another. It has nothing to do with skill, yet another subjective term, or creativity or intelligence. Still as was mentioned before you get multiple threads like this with no other real purpose to them other than to attempt to put down people who don't like to play the same way others do. And it isn't just popular builds or groups. It's all over the place. For some people their hot button is farming They think it is boring and that it isn't the "correct" way to play the game. Again a subjective thing. the bottom line is if people want to run tried and true builds and groups then let them. Don't knock them and don't complain about not getting into groups. Let them have fun their way and you have fun yours and let that be the point of the game like it should be. It's about entertainment plain and simple. I think the only "right " way to play the game is to play it for fun. I think the only thing to "get" about guild Wars is that it is in fact a game and is designed to amuse. Whatever that means to you then have at it. But just remember one man's meat is another's poison.

Aye the ones who just read a build somewhere and think they can use it are the worst.

At least there are some who are honest in ToA and say things like 'first time SS/SV or 55monk LF xx, will pay' etc.
First time i played as SS/SV wasn't from getting it from a thread here, it was watching the SS/SV necro i went to UW with, figuring timings etc. Course the first run or 2 i buggered up groups of 3 smites but figured it out quickly. Important thing is i went with a friend rather than instantly thinking i was pro and going for ToA randoms (i never do randoms in ToA anyway).

Whats with all the hate on R/Mo? If your not using your 2ndary you SHOULD be R/Mo to bring Rebirth or your just been a stubborn RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO.
I tried R/W w/ IWAY in tombs, worked quite well except i was normally the lurer so always ended up getting hit with Blind/Cripple.
R/Me too w/ Physical Resistance to at least survive 2 hits from the Grasps.

Now i do FoW its R/Mo for Rebirth and Judges Insight, way i see it no other profession can beat over double damage to skeletons (250 damage in 1 hit owns). Helpful when your Order necro either sucks or does nothing.

I'm not gonna call people who play cookie cutter builds childish, just those that act as though the only classes in this game are:

Tank
OMFGhealer
MM
SS
Bonder
Nuker (OMG Fier!!!)
B/P Rangar!!!

And completely ignore any other class, and in fact TELL them they should delete their characters. (I get it once a week, and in fact was asked if I would sell my fellblade to a class that deserved it.)

And as to knowing your role, that is the most ridiculous thing ever. If you can play your class, with few exceptions you don't even need to know where the fsck you're going, you'll live to tell about it tomorrow. I play ranger as my main. I understand how ranger works. I can and will actively tank, contribute to party heals, act as a second hexer, interrupt, deal conditions, and damage single or multiple foes. I do runs from time to time. I blow through missions for lower levels. I understand my role. Oftentimes it's to be a puller or a caller, or to otherwise assist the team. Sometimes it's to sub for another class we lost or couldn't get. Occasionally it's to do something out of the way, such as a full hexer. I can do all of those things and enemies die, we get loot and the map progresses. I just didn't do it your way.

Oftentimes, I can take FEWER than your cookie cutter build (with the right people, who as above KNOW their class) and do what you do in the same amount of time.

B/P? How about my guild leader and I spamming empathy and epidemic? He herds them with distortion and I barrage afterwards. Hmmm, think we took 5. We made it almost all the way through before some people had to go and we had to call it. We didn't wipe. Only had one monk. No MM. We progressed more than fast enough for me.

Do I think I'm more special? No. Do I think I'm smarter than the people shouting know your role and play my definition of what works? You had better believe it.

Agreed.

I've already said that wasn't my motivation for starting the thread, and I know my motivation better than you do. So stop throwing out this red herring, please. I agree that some posts have put down people who run cookie-cutter builds, but I haven't, and it wasn't my motivation for starting the thread. My motivation was to bitch about how much time I spent on the weekend trying to get into groups rather than actually playing the game. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's the time it takes to get into groups that's the problem, and it can happen even when you have a cookie-cutter build, but the "wrong" cookie-cutter build. My characters eventually get into a group, but it takes too long to do so. Forming groups should be facilitated in some way, as has been mentioned many times before.

because they work usually

Felinette I know you haven't really knocked on anyone but the others did. I don't mean to insinuate that you are solely to blame or that you started this thread with that intention however it got hi jacked in the beginning for that sole purpose. I tell you what though. If you like any time you want to run with me and my guild just add me to your F list. I run cookie cutter characters for PUG's just for ease of organization but my guild welcomes unique builds and groups. In fact we encourage it. The only thing is we don't share our builds or our groupings with anyone else. If you can respect that then you are more than welcome to run with us any time we are on. We have pretty dedicated players and we are all pretty active, although finals are happening right now for a lot of poeple which has cut our activity down some.

Also whoever mentioned epidemic...good on you. Very underrated skill. My primary build for my ranger utilizes epidemic heavily and he can destroy groups with ease so long as he has a tank capable of holding aggro.

Anybody of like mind may also add me, my guild has some very interesting sights in PvE, very neat stuff.

You get enough of it, you just have to vent. When you can't get in a PUG because of your class, and you want to advance your character, you get frustrated.

I still think Guild Wars is operating under Jim Crow. But, that's playes' fault and not ANet. They provided very well balanced classes, it's up to us to put them to use.

there are many guilds that have the ability to think outside the box ... its only those times that guild mates are in low supply for a particular run that things get tricky, lol

but anyone that wants to try more unique builds, say so in the chat and see whos listening, or hit up some of the guilds mentioned here.. mine included

Yeah, I agree that some took the opportunity to put down those who run cookie-cutter builds, which is too bad. Some of my builds are cookie-cutter. Even those characters sometimes have a problem getting into a group because it's not easy to figure out who's looking (especially now that henchies are included in the group count--I'll often invite myself to a group, only to find out it's a player with a few henchies, and people have self-invited themselves to my group when it's me, Alesia, Reyna, and Stefan). I really do think that GW could do with a better system. A friend plays another online game and has been raving about how easy it is to form groups because the game provides a good system for forming and finding groups. He says it never takes more than ten minutes to get a group together.

And if you've only got so much time to play, you can't spend half an hour sitting on your behind looking for a group. Even when starting your own group, that can happen.

Anyway, I'm off to play now. See if I can get into a group. LOL.

Part of the issue with GW is how ANet has structured the game. You're given only a limited skillbar, limited attribute points to spend, a limited party size, and relatively long missions that can fail unless certain aspects of the mission aren't accounted for, or certain exploits (gear/book trick, for example) aren't used to make it easier. As players explore the metagame more, and discover more skills as effective parts of the game, ANet creates even harder and harder areas to explore. ANet also expends a lot of effort nerfing (rebalancing) certain exploited skills, which makes the overall game more challenging. As the game gets more difficult (Tombs as the latest example), more and more "cookie cutter" builds are required.

Think about it - when playing around in the first areas of the game past presearing, party sizes were small, and as long as you had a monk and perhaps a warrior, it didn't really matter what other professions were in the party. As you progress in the game, party sizes get bigger, but more clearly defined roles come into play because once you reach the party limit of 8 slots - the game doesn't stop getting harder so something has to make up for it.

I do agree that some people when making a party can be pretty anal about things, to even quibble over skillbar selections and party composition. And I'm not just talking about a standard 2 warrior, 2 monk, 1 ele and one necro, but actually specifying skillbar selections (a battery necro, a bonder, an echo fire nuker, a stance tank) but that's their perogative. As I said before, you don't have to partake if you don't agree with it.

My post earlier was not intended as an insult, Strobo, it was merely a very broad generalization, so if you were offended by my remarks, I apologize.

Now, we have come to a very important part of this thread: What makes guild wars fun? As strobo said, one man's meat is another mans poison and this could not be truer in a game like guild wars, where the player base varies wildly in terms of age, ethnic background and gender. Not one of the over 1,000,000 people in the GW world have fun in exactly the same way. Now some players, like felinette and myself, simply dont enjoy cookie cutter pugs, not only because they can be such a hassle to form, but because there is absolutely no scope for variety outside of a given role. Take the MM. Now, MM necro is IMMENSE fun to play, as theres nothing more satisfying than rolling over a massive mob with the ease of buttering a slice of bread. But, if you want to be a cookie cutter MM, there is no option other than N/Mo, because, of course, heal area is the only way to heal minions. Of course, N/R doesnt work because theres no such thing as healing spring, is there? jk
But even this gets boring after a little while, at least, for me and a lot of other people.

Now, accuse me of bragging all you want, but I'm proud to not fit into that category. I feel proud every time I'm out with my elementalist and someone says 'noob ele, delete that piece of [email protected] and make an SS' or 'why arent you nuking noob?' or 'eles warriors is the worst class ever, ur lying that u can farm with it, noob!' I get that sort of comment all the time. I even get flamed by my fellow eles for having geomancer armour as opposed to pyro or aero. What do you make of that? That is what the people Serafita mentions think of the rest of the GW populace. You, I and the vast majority of people on this forum are different. Even those that have leapt to the defence of the cookie cutter builds are different, because you argue your points validly enough.

It is these people that this thread was originally about. Note that the thread was about the mentality of such groups and in no way criticised the validity of such builds. They are the most effective, whether I or anyone else likes it or not, but no-one is obliged to play them. These people play them, plus they enjoy doing it. But whos to say they wouldnt enjoy playing guild wars even more if they opened their eyes for a change? But why do they refuse to alter their groups even slightly, I wonder? People fear change, thats why. By allowing an element they cannot understand into the group, they put the roles of the whole group in question. what does a booktrick team do when they have no stance tank? They fall apart, thats what. I've seen it happen on one fow run - the tank leaves and suddenly, there is a mass exodus of all the generic classes, leaving the people who created the team to clean up after them. Let me tell you that FoW is technically possible with 3 people who dont fit any specific build if theyve got their minds set to it - a bloodspiker, nuker and smitespiker is a perfectly valid team to go at fissure and it was the most fun I ever had down there. of course, we couldnt engage the big groups at all, but we chipped our way around the edges quite nicely. Okay, brag over, you know what I'm getting at - the durability of a cookie cutter group is much lower than the durability of a bunch of loonies - the cc's are a fragile group - if one goes down, they are likely to panic and/or fall apart. If someone drops from your average party of loonies, they will lament the loss and move on, at reduced efectiveness, but still solid, nonetheless. Anyway, I've rambled long enough, time for me to go do something else... (dunno what cause am stuck at work all night after missing me last train... )

I've had people leave in the middle of missions and regroup when I told them I'd be right back after I finished saying a 2 minute Hebrew prayer honoring the Sabbath... apparently one of the wammo's convinced the group that I was bad luck XD. A-net really needs a better reporting system.

Fair enough man. I just have this thing about making broad generalizations. It's easy to do and I'm guilty of it myself. I think we all are at some point. I can take an apology though and I appreciate you being big enough to make that step. Usually people just ignore me LoL :P

Is it me or am I the only one who is noticing people advertisizing B/P ranger for FoW? Does that build even work? I'm usually soloing spiders or forest so I never bother to check but.. jesus.

I miss the days after launch - there weren't too many builds per se that were tried and true for PvE and it was a bit easier to get a group for everyone. Or maybe I'm just nostalgic. I just remember doing RoF before the 'newb wave' (as I call it - the progression of below average players to end-game missions) hit RoF... I think we had like 3 rangers (I was one), 2 monks, 1 warrior, and like 2 elementalists. Oh well.

I really hope Factions pulls something with its mobs to disrupt the cookie cutter skills... :]

I hope Factions mixes it up a bit but honestly there are some builds and groups builds that are just so darned effective it's hard to throw a wrench in the works. I can certainly see the same B/P group working in FoW and even UW to a lesser degree since it relies on multiple avenues of attack and basically using the MM as a force multiplier, turning your group of 8 into a group of 16 or more. I mean the FoW and UW enemies are nasty to be sure but a 16 member party is pretty overwhelming based simply on damage. The thing that makes or breaks B/P groups in my opinion is the quality of the rangers dedicated to interrupting. You usually have the spirit holders then your puller and then the interrupters. If your interrupters stay on point and deny the enemy their spell casting a B/P group can decimate just about anything. Honestly I see the B/P group as a pretty universal group. The only exception is in areas where there are lots of enemies that do not leave exploitable corpses. Then the MM is forced to rely on dead pets and dead party members to build their armies.

That just made me think of something, wouldn't it be kind of cool if 2 teams of 8 could partner up with eachother for the purpose of clearing places out? I mean, not really for the loot of course, but just as a way to experiment a little more or something? Ah, maybe not, I don't know.

little off topic, sorry.

Yes, B/P works incredibly well.

We had it figured out before Tombs, or SF actually, we just don't say anything.

We rangers know all, but since you never let us in groups, heh...

Actually, I'll make a point in the favor of the cookie cutter groups. There are a lot of wildcat builds that do nothing. Really. Mesmers and rangers both got bad names from people who completely sideways fscked their chosen profession. I understand and accept that. There will be people out there old enough to remember some of the more miserable ones (I've seen it-it was bad) and they will have a sour taste. That said, one of those two classes played well can replace anything. They are the most versatile, but that also makes them more difficult. Not to detract from any other class, because (and this is important) anything played WELL is HARD. Even cookie cutters. Wa/Mo played properly is NOT dumbfire asleep at the wheel. Ask my little brother. He's turned it into a literal art form. Of invincibility. Echo Nuker? Try managing energy without your brain on. Heal? Major multitasking and actually giving a care.

We all play the game we wanna play. We all bring the pain. We just want to have more chances to do it with humans instead of those cookie cutter henches.

Oh, and Sidra, Orion said you were a n00blet. I'd hurt him for that. Stupid uppity henches...

The only thing I never understood about the B/P group is the use of orders over SS, particularly after the Orders nerf. I mean Orders works and works well, don't get me wrong I just thing SS would be a better choice as far as sheer damage output.

Well lets see full barrage = 6 arrows. You should be able to get 3 (possibly 4 with tigers) of them off in the 5 seconds order is on you. So:

6 arrows * +17 damage each * 3 uses * 6 rangers = 756 damage.

If you're lucky max SS will effect maybe 5 enemies at once. Providing they don't spread out or the hexed one dies, you'd be lucky to break 500 damage. Even with echo'ing it I think you'd be hard pressed to break 500 damage. Just my opinion. I could be wrong, I don't necro. I just read the skill description of SS and based on the average amount of enemies that remained grouped close enough for SS to be effective... thats what I came up with.

Phaern, don't forget most of us barrage with Elswyths, a 5/1 vampiric.

Well I do run an SS and if you use a standard echoing build with AtB and just hit every enemy in the group, entirely possible with the recharge time on SS, those 5 enemies are now applying 41 damage to themselves and everyone else every time they attack. I figured it up at one point with a group of 6 and over the duration of the spell you end up dishing out like 3985 damage per monster infected. Now that is an optimistic estimate because the initial infected monster will die sooner. Still the damage output is insane. The one thing I can see that would be a problem is I've noticed that the groups in Tombs tend to stay spread out because they are tanked on a braod front. I've done tombs with SS and been highly effective at it but that was with an MM and a W/E damage sponge to draw the enemies in close and a monk providing cover enchants. Now that I think about it though just because of the broad tanking front I can see why Orders over SS.

Yeah I know but he specified why orders over SS. You'd get the +5 vamp bonus regardless of which is used, if you are using a vampiric bow.

What? Ima go duke it out with that lil' ingrate right now! I'll take him on any day... snap his staff over his... oh wait. off topic.



What I have to wonder, is why so many people make the stupid mistake of publicizing their revolutionary new builds instead of leaking it out slowly to just friends (like Seraf here has), thus ruining the build forever and usually getting it nerfed XD. I really don't see the point in things like that, because all it does is chop off the right side of people's brains (art side) and leave them sitting there just pressing the buttons that someone else told them to as they "beat the game omfg lol i roxzor with my *small letters* not */small letters* original leet *insert random build that everyone loves that can easily be outclassed* here" types of things. My only problem with cookie cutters, besides the fact that they strip the idea of flexibility and thinking-on-the-run type skills, is that they teach newbies that you MUST do this and HAVE to buy that armor in order to succeed. It takes the fun out of the game and the COM out of COMRPG when stuff like that happens. I'm just happy that my original guild kicked all of the people who began to not do anything but sit in the arenas yelling "IWAY LFG" or "R-SPIKE LFG LOL" all day. That was fun.

</end paragraph of reading hell>

I think it's less braggadocio and more just trying to educate folks.

Although I tend to support a party-find feature, it makes me worry that it will be even more difficult to find a group if you're not running a cookie cutter build (hi, all you Mesmers out there!). No one would ever have to settle for a non-FotM player again.

A "tried and tested build" played by a poor player still results in a poor player. The build isn't really going to change that much. Throwing Spiteful Spirit on the same baddie 4 times in 30 seconds (if it's possible) is not going to be anywhere near as effective as someone who knows to spread the damage.

A cookie cutter build is an accident waiting to happen when someone doesn't understand what it is about the build that works. My Mesmer was LFG at ToA the other day when she got picked up by a 55 Monk and an SS Necro. At first, I didn't understand why they invited me or what they wanted from me. They said, "do whatever." They took me in there, we stood way back while the SS aggroed, and then bam, he was down like a daisy.

He took me in there because he'd heard that a Mesmer can "help out," but what he didn't know (I realized it the moment he went down) was that the point was so the Mesmer could block any enchantment stripping. A quick note of that beforehand would have changed everything -- but he didn't understand why it worked, he'd only been told to bring a Mesmer. (Needless to say, we couldn't rez his 55hp butt )

Likewise, I don't know how many times I've acquiesced to groups demanding I go SS with Spinal Shivers, and then getting into battle and finding out that I have to flip over to an Icy bow so that at least ONE person in the party will be causing cold damage (the only time Shivers has any value worth the energy to cast it).

Seconded. Cookie cutter builds are former uncommon builds that people perfected. It takes awhile to really develop an effective build combo, but that's part of the magic of doing it. When I'm on top of my game and timing it right, I'm running a necro Poisoner that could dance circles around many of the SSes out there. It's uncommon, but definitely not substandard. I've played Battery necros before there were Battery necros, played SSes before there were SSes -- didn't invent them, don't get me wrong (it's not a brag ). But experimenting is one of the most exciting parts of this game.

Unless you're still playing in Prophecies.

Heh, I went to FoW recently using BiP (the elite form of Ritual), and one Warrior who didn't know what BiP was went snake and ragequit over the fact that I didn't bring Ritual.

Blood can be extremely effective in FoW (although BiP or BR and the knowledge of how to use them is vital for this). A few months back, as an experiment, I went down there in a 3-Necro team (my N/Me and 2 N/Mo). We cleared out more of the place than I have ever done with an 8-man PuG. I was running Blood on that occasion (BiP, Well of Blood for the baddies that did leave corpses, some Mes interrupts and Energy Tap), one was MM + Prot. (Heal Area + BotM = one potent army) and one was Curses (an early build of SS also using Chilblains / Plague Sending). Our toughest opponents were the skeles (can't Well or MM on skeles). We had to have a hierarchy thing going to share corpses.

Or the insinuation that people who don't play cookie cutter builds are n00bz and "don't get" Guild Wars.

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying, and yes, the point is to have fun. If CCing is fun, go for it. But maybe if you get bored someday, experimenting sometime down the road will invigorate the game for you.

Excellent point, and very true.

Trolling = telling the truth?

While the post you quoted might be hypocritical, that doesn't make it any less accurate.

I have alot of qaums with people running cookie cutter builds ("TANK, HEALER, NUKER ONLY!"), but asking for particular group members to carry certain skills isn't cookie cutter at all, and it certainly isn't overly demanding.

If your build doesn't work, it doesn't work. You shouldn't be expecting people to take your echo Heal Area Mo/Me.

I'de have to say that expecting people to take you as you are, to cash in your "OMG TOLERANCE PLX" card is pretty "Cookie Cutter"

Cookie cutter builds are crap.
Any good player knows that to be successful (at least in pvp) you need to be original.
I make my own builds, that work (in hoh, and against top guilds) and when skills get nerfed, mine dont even get touched, or if they do, they just get powered up cause they're underused.

Beast mastery for example... It's like having a bunch of eviscerates with extra bonuses, except that pet attacks do MORE than eviscerate. My god people, LOL.

I'll leave it at that.

IMO if you wish to experiment.. you have a guild right? get your guild together and you all can " test your uber leet ranger/nec "ORDERS" skills"

Ive no issue with people trying stuff out and coming up with new combos...

I do however dont want to join a pug of your " good Ideas" and carry you through a mission because your build doesnt work worth a dang...

a PUG consists of a simple concept.. hence the name PICK UP GROUP... we are not there to test things with you.. we are there to achieve an end result in the quickest method possible.. thats done with "cookie-cutter builds" because simply enough they work very effectively....

Im not interested in testing the effectivness of your w/e caster.....

involve your guild in your " testing" and dont bring it into a pug..

people in a pug want a set defined list of skills and secondaries on their team because it works very well and much quicker than other BS>...

a great example is TOPK.... there is a reason for all the /mo secondaries your R/me domination ranger may be a cool idea but it isnt what the team requires...

your n/r using healing spring and tryin to do orders is a nice concept but it dont do orders half as constant and efficient as a n/mo whos got healing and can not only heal themselves but back up the monk..

simplicity works...

And here I thought my echo mending build was so pro..

If you need a monk for a certain quest or mission and they just slapped something together and forgot RoF or another important skill, then okay. But thats a whole lot different than making a person run a very specific build because thats the only way you think it can be done.

Of course, I've been using my monk a lot more recently, because I don't forsee this happening..everyone needs a monk after all.
If someone were to say I had to run a healing only build or something, well that just wouldn't be acceptable. Okay, I just don't have the healing skills necessary..and that was all off topic. >.<

Your religion doesn't belong in guild wars, and I can see how the player may have taken offense to a comment that could have contradicted his own personal beliefs.

That is why "brb" will, in every case, suffice just as well.

To contribute to the topic, a very silly topic, to say the least, I'm pretty sure it's an open-and-shut-case. People use cookie-cutter builds because they're unfamiliar with how the game operates.

You can sit there and cry about me making assumptions about what type of player, or person, any of you may be. That's fine. The fact is, people don't use cookie-cutter builds for more than two reasons:

1. They are trying the cookie-cutter build for themselves to see if it is as effective as the general population seems to believe it is, or

2. They do not know how to formulate their own build, so they use a template someone else (likely, someONES) created because it is easier than doing some homework and coming up with a skillset of your own.

Do not knock me for telling you what type of player you are for using cookie-cutter builds. There is no defending uniformity in a video game that, as a cover on the damned box suggests, allows a plethora of different builds to choose from, and an especially higher amount than the aforementioned cookie-cutter builds labeled above.

Someone answer this for me:

Why should I have to run into the same touch-ranger build in Random Arenas every 2 rounds? Whether it's successful or not becomes rather irrelvant if EVERYONE is using it, no? How can it be fun to "succeed" at what has already been done before?

I don't even understand the concept of cookie-cutting in pvp. When a player using a cookie-cutter build wins, does he type up an email to the creator, thanking him for his victory? He certainly can't be taking credit for himself, because going online to find a build that thousands of other players are using is hardly a display of "skill".

As for bitching about not getting into groups, tough luck. We cannot change the close-mindedness of other players. We can, however, change the close-mindedness of ourselves, in using builds that we spend 10 minutes coming up with on our own to make Guild Wars a much more diverse game than it is. And that can't be too difficult, since half of the game are one primary/secondary combination of a possible 30. I think you all know which one I'm talking about.

Again fun is subjective. It's not something that you can quantify. Just because you don't think it is fun doesn't mean someone else doesn't. Like I said I don't care what the hell group or build I'm in or using so long as I'm killing things and getting drops. that's fun for me. It doesn't matter to me how I accomplish it. whether it is with a standard group or with a group of unique builds, whether I use a unique build of my own or whether I use a build that someone else posted.

Whether you mean to or not when you say things like that it comes off as a sort of holier than thou attitude. " I play original builds so I R better than you and I have more fun than you and I play the game more correctly than you." All bollux and all subjective. You can't say things like that with any validity to your claims whatsoever because fun and skill are not objective things. When you come up with a hard and fast scale on which to measure fun and skill let me know. Until then You are just as closed minded as the other players you spoke of.

Also Sister of Mercy I fully support experimentation in the game. Like I said I run some flat out bizarre builds, mostly solo or with guildies since it just takes too long to explain to a PUG how I'm going to function in the group and how I can benefit them by doing so. Guildies already know. The ones I build for Solo use are just to skip the PUG factor flat out. I use a really neat poison\barrage ranger that absolutely demolishes groups and makes tanks that much more effective. I've got a Warrior\Ele that can out tank a stance tank any day of the week. I use a necro mesmer mass degen build that actually makes CP worthwhile in the endgame despite what people think about it and he can solo without being a 55 just because mobs never get close enough to him to hit him before they drop dead of degen. I'm all about it. All I'm saying is there is no "right" way to play and ther is no "more fun" way to play the game and it's silly that some people want to put on airs just because they do things differently.

My views on this subject:

First, so people dont get confused as much, I want to make clear my definition of "noob".

A new player is simply someone new to the game - they can range anywhere from "expert gamer" to "noob". They simply dont have knowledge of all in the game.
A noob is someone that, although they have played through the game, know what things do, remain at their playing ability of when they first joined the game. They cannot and/or will not learn to play, or play skillfuly.
The vast majority of pugs are full of noobs, because the skilled players only play with their friends and guilds, as they dont want to deal with the noobs.

The only builds noobs can play effectivly are the "cookie-cutter" ones. I dont go into sorrows furnace often but when I do, the vast majority of players I see using the 5-man farming build believe the build is difficult to play, and because they can do it, they are skilled players. I have personaly played all but the tank for that build (for my own reasons, I will NEVER play a tank anymore). I have been board to tears while doing so. My most recent trip in, I was the healer, and I could have made do the entire trip with a fixed 75 energy - never refilling.
Noobs lack the incentive to come up with their own builds, and lack the ability to play anything but the easiest of builds. Therefore, the abundance of the cookie-cutters.

Build does not equal skill. A person can play a build well, and another person can play like they just found the build on a forum post. People can run IWAY with skill and even take and hold the Hall of Heroes, and then there are those that don't make it past the second map.

As someone was saying before, skill is subjective. I don't call a Rank 3+ balanced pug running a unique build that dies to the Zaishen more skilled than an unranked IWAY that can atleast beat the first few teams they fight.

Are soldiers who use certain military tactics less "skilled" in combat becuase they didn't develope those tactics?

I've seen some very skilled players playing some very terrible builds. I have seen some very unskilled players playing some really good builds. The unskilled players, they seldom win and hardly ever by their own merits.

Pressing keys 1-8 on your keyboard are not the difficult aspect of this game. Strategizing, coming up with which skills are assigned to keys 1-8, is what makes the game a challenge. Fitting 8 skills into your build while competing against another player (individually or as a team, depending on the circumstance, how many players are still alive, etc.) is the challenge each player must face when designing his "build" that will challenge other players' "builds".

Guild Wars is a simple game. Str0b0 can copy and paste the words "subjective" and "objective" as many times as he likes, but it does not change the fact that when everybody uses one set of 8 skills, the game loses originality. It isn't up for dispute. The same builds facing each other over and over again do not make for a "fun" game, unless you get your fun via counter intuitive goals rivaling that of doing what you hate for a living.

One person can say he's having fun playing the same build against an identical build. While he very well may be having fun, it was not the developers' intention for 5 or 6 cookie-cutter builds to dominate the PvP experience. How can I speak for the devs? Simple. They told me how to play this game before I installed it onto my PC. They gave me as many hints as possible until I got the drift of things.

Guild Wars is a game featuring hundreds of skills for each profession. If it was designed to be the same build always facing another build, A-Net would not have given us hundreds of skills to choose from.

Mix up your builds, please. Using the same build over and over again defeats the purpose of playing a competitive game, because it is no competition to pit your touch ranger against an opponents touch ranger, cast identical spells, and pray your team has the better monk. That is not a competitive atmosphere. That is not strategy. That is hoping you draw your name (monk) out of a hat and get lucky every once in awhile.

It fascinates me that people actually defend cookie-cutter builds. What is there to defend? Is variety a bad thing, now? Perhaps all characters should look the same, one gender, one class, all performing the same actions with exactly the same statistics. It seems like this is what the fans of the cookie-cutter movement would like to see more of: repetition.

While we're at it, let's all wear the same armor, too. All players earn the same drops, wield the same weapons, and fight the same monsters. Over. And over. And over again.

If those who enjoy this trend of cookie-cutter builds would like to see some variety in the game, maybe you can start by switching up your skill bar once every milennium. Although I'm incredibly impressed that a majority of you have the know-how to google "TUCH RANGAR SPIKE!!one", maybe it's time for a break.

ExDeity. You have never ran an infuse monk before. Come back after you do that for about 2 hours, then tell me that playing the game is about hitting number keys 1-8. Then tell me skill has anything to do with your build.

The funny thing about cookie cutter builds in pvp is that if two exact teams fight each other the more skilled one wins. Which is what Skill>Grind is all about.

Efficiency and safety is why people use cookie cutter builds in PVE. They don't want to have to form a group with a tanking ele, because there are like 5 stance tanking warriors LFG. If I really wanted to complete a mission I would probably try to take reasonable measures to make sure the people I brought with me were going to be the most effective choices for what they were doing.

That said, running a different build can be fun because it gives you that "I'm so special" feeling. Unfortunately it leaves room for people to look Ralph Wiggum special.