Some suggestions for Rangers

Rangers have long been my favorite class in many different games, so naturally when I started playing GW, my first and favorite character is a ranger.

Forgive me if some of these ideas have been posted elsewhere, I haven't read every post in the forums. In the course of my playing, I've come to find a few things about the ranger class that need a little work.

Firstly, pets: there is a debate about how useful pets are, I'm not here to discuss that, but what can be done with them. I've found a pet to be a valuable ally in many situations, and extra baggage in others. There are a few simple things to be done that could streamline gameplay with pets

For instance, when your party dies and is resurrected by the nearest academy monk, your dead pet remains laying on the battlefield. The only way to regain it is to go back to the same location and use comfort animal, or leave the area completely, either way, you have to do a lot of fighting while missing the use of your beast skills, which are useless without the pet, just in order to get those skills back. The pet needs to be revived when the rest of the party is.

Also, in order to take a pet with you, it is almost mandatory to fill two skill slots before even adding any special pet attacks - charm animal and comfort animal. One fourth of your skill bar is automatically gone if you choose to use a pet, which if you are using any other class of skills, greatly limits your options. I would recommend combining the two skills into one, let the charm animal skill work as a pet heal/res skill when you already have a trained pet.

Next topic? Bows. Rangers have one weapon. Period. I don't want to hear the argument "but there are all different kinds of bows" - with the exception of some variation in speed and range they are the same weapon. I know all swords swing at the same rate. What's different about a ranger's weapon and a sword or axe or fire spells or blood magic is this: all other classes' weapons/spells/attacks each depend on one attribute. Sometimes, they may be affected by a second attribute, but putting points into swords will in no way improve your hammer knockdowns. Points in earth magic are not going to supplement your air spells. However, in order for a ranger to be a truly effective archer, he/she must put points into three separate attributes: marksmanship, expertise, and wilderness survival. Why? because there are arrow attacks which depend on each of these attributes. In order to be the best shot or have the most arrow tricks, marksmanship is not enough, and in a game where effective characters usually only have their points spread out into 3 attributes, your character becomes seriously limited and any secondary class attributes or beastmaster skills must be discarded for the true archer.

The answer to this is simple: Traps. Rangers are supposed to be very skilled with traps, they are supposed to be one of the main options a ranger has to use in combat. I've known a handful of players who have been extremely successful with traps, making characters who use nothing but traps. But traps depend on Wilderness Survival, as do some arrow attacks. That's right, one attribute affects two completely different sets of skills!!! The arrow attacks in Wilderness Survival need to be moved to marksmanship, and Wilderness Survival needs to be solely a trap-oriented attribute (ok, Troll Ungent can staty there too, that makes sense).

My point is that whereas other classes have one attribute for a set of skills, and only one set of skills for an attribute, Ranger has 3 attributes that affect one skills set, and two skill sets dependant on one attribute. The Ranger skills and attributes are so intertwined, that it makes for very few options. You must be either an archer or a beastmaster, not some combination of both, unlike say a warrior, who could be both a swordsman and a tactician, or a monk, who could choose to heal and protect or heal and smite, or smite and protect for that matter. With a ranger, the decision is made for you. If you will be a good archer, you must forgo any useful level of ability in a secondary class. To sacrifice points in any of the 3 attributes is to be mediocre at your primary set of skills.

These are my experiences with the game, please let me know what you think, am I way off base or right on target? For any rangers out there, do you think these suggestions would enhance your game and give you more options, or would this unbalance the whole system? I'd love to hear what others have to say on this.

Rangers rely on bows and energy based bow skills, yet, like the OP said, we have to invest in at least 2 attributes just for that type of attack to be useful (Marksmanship and expertise if you wish to use your arrow skills regularly).

Not to mention the arrow/ranger attack skills that fall into the two other attributes...
Tigers Fury - BM (which many can argue is ONLY in the BM attribute because of it's name, which is a ridiculous reason to have it there)
Poison Arrow - WS
Melandru's Arrows - WS
Kindle Arrows - WS
Incendiary Arrows - WS
Ignite Arrows - WS
Apply Poison - WS

As far as energy... sigh. Yes, we have expertise, but there go 12, almost 13, attribute points if you want a sizable reduction in costs on skills. And this ONLY affects ranger skills AFAIK. So that 25 energy elemental skill you're sporting will still run you 25 energy. It's not like a higher starting energy pool would give us an advantage over monks or any other class (we still have 1 pip less than Ele/Mes/Mo/Ne).

We have no +energy mods for our bows. I'd love grips that did UP TO +10 energy.

And believe me, I'd love to wear something other than my druid gear.

Since rangers have very few secondary skills in use (usually) they can carry a staff with +10 to energy on switch to ease the energy cost.

Which is immensely useful when I need that energy for my arrow skills.

Let's not forget Distracting Shot and Point Blank Shot which are Expertise based skills! Regardless of energy use, it takes a full 3 attributes to take advantage of arrow attacks.

we need more types of weapons too, ie. crossbows, throwing knives and stars, regular knives and daggers, and we also need more stealth abilities (hey a ranger relys on stealth dont he)

I'm all for my ranger having access to more weapons, but you're talking about making it into a ninja. I don't want to be a ninja.

You're suggestions could be implemented, and I totally agree with toastgodsupreme that tigers fury does not belong in the beast master skills. Also, it would be neat to see weapons such as throwing knives implemented into it, or maybe javelins. just somethign different that are still ranged attacks.

Long ago I stopped carrying 'Comfort Animal'. Two slots for a pet is just too expensive. I consider my pet a valuable asset, and protect it as much as I can, it's just very rare that my pet gets killed. I find it incongruous that a pet can be healed by a third party, but not ressurected. I also originally thought it was not proper that your pet auto-resurrects when you go through a gate, but now I think it goes along with the general "no hash death penalties" philosphy of the game.

I do think that Rangers are somewhat penalized using a 2-handed weapon. I would like to see grips and such that increase energy. I also think that a Ranger should be able to have Bracer or Buckler type sheilds, just like real archers had, that are worn on the arm.

I fully agree that rangers do some help in this game. but......
we cannot make the ranger class uber to this rest like is being talked about here.

It is all about what you want to be and from what i can see in this post you are wanting the ranger to be everything at once, that will never happen.

BEAST MASTER
Best build for this would be a R/W and carry a sword/axe & shield or a hammer.
Fight side by side with your pet, dont send him off in battle by himself,
plus then you dont have to put att. points into marks or wilderness.


INTERUPTER
Best build for this would be a R/Me and use half moon/short bow also limit your Mesmer skills that your going to use to one att.
Att. points would go Marks (only need 8-9 for this build) wilderness, expertise what ever you have left over would go into your mesmer att. that you choose.


CONDITIONER
Best build for this would also be a R/Me and use half moon/short bow also limit your Mesmer skills that your going to use to one att.
Att. points would go in Marks (only need 8-9 for this build) high wilderness, expertise what ever you have left over would go into your mesmer att. that you choose.


TRAPPER
Best build for this is R/Mo use some type of staff or wand with off hand item that gives you energy. b/c as a trapper only you are only support.
Att.points would go into high wilderness, expertise and what monk att you choose.


ARCHER
Best build for this is Ranger only with bow that has good mods
Att. points would go in high marksmanship,wilderness,expertise.
plus as a ranger only you have plenty of stance or other means to help you evade attacks.


Now i am not saying that a-net is perfet in the way they built the ranger we do need some help, and some quivers bucklers,hoods,or bows that had different req like expertise or wilderness with energy boost would be very very nice.

Just remeber that when you chose the ranger class as primary you have chosen the hardest class to play in this game.

beast masters dont work well in pvp... never seen a good one at least =)

I don't agree with much of this. I think pets are fine how they are gameplay-wise, but the AI snags need to go. Try a 15BM/12Marks/9Expertise build with ferocious strike, you might like it. You can make a good ranger without wilderness survival, just like you can make a good warrior without tactics or a good necro without blood magic. Tiger's Fury is fine where it is. You could always use frenzy instead. I haven't seen a reasonable suggestion for an extra ranger weapon yet, in this thread at least.

There are some problems with pet resurrection. If my pet dies in a GvG match, it resurrects at the 2 minute mark back at base, possibly before I can res it with comfort animal. On most guild halls, I have to run back and get it; Warrior's/Wizard's/Hunter's isles have those gates it can't get out of. The fix: Only res the pet in this way if its owner is being ressed too. In PvE, ressing the pet with the rest of the party after a wipeout would be nice.

I'm with RFox. When rangers try to be the "jack of all trades" like everyone says they are, they're not great at anything. Just like every other class, a ranger should find his niche and stick with it.

Rangers are great at energy denial :-P

I don't see any underpowered/overpowered elements in this post at a quick glance which is good. The main concern seems to be that rangers are different than every other class. But...so what? Yes they have the best primary attribute in the game, yes practically every ranger setup needs 13-14 and a superior expertise rune. There are many many ways to make a ranger even still. They're different, not a big deal. And also, bow rangers don't need wilderness survival at all, look at this sample:

10+1+3 expertise
11+1 marksmanship
3+1 BM
Secondary prof attribute line

Tigers Fury
Barrage {E}
Distracting Shot
Debilitating Shot
Some type of enchant buff
Dual Shot
-
-

yes, you can make a "good" ranger without wilderness survival, but you can't make the "best" archer without it, wheras a warrior can be the "best" swordsman without axes, and a monk can be the "best" healer without smiting. Every other class has the ability to specialize in a specific area, the ranger's skills are spread thin and intertwined.

Why is Tiger's Fury fine where it is? Give me one logical reason why a bow attack should be linked to control over animal?

I'll agree with you on one thing, the ranger doesn't need any other weapons, the bow is fine. Save throwing knives for thieves, crossbows for those who can't aim straight. What ranger's need is improvement on what they've got: traps. They're supposed to be an important part of the class, but there are no low level trap skills, and the traps' attribute affects everything else as well. I don't want new stuff for rangers, I just want to clean up what we're supposed to have.

A ranger is a hunter, and while that does mean he relys on stealth to get close to his target, I think adding those skills would complicate this game beyond its intentions. If you really wanted stealth in the game, I think the best way would be to add another profession, such as a thief, and if you really wanted a stealth ranger, take it for your secondary.

Now that that's out of the way, can we stick to the original topic? This isn't about what new things can be added to rangers, but about what is right or wrong with the current distribution of skills vs attributes in the current ranger setup. Thanks

Yes and no. Tiger's Fury is a stance very similar to lightning reflexes and it would make a lot more sense to tie it to expertise, thus, boosting your attack speed would force you to make a tradeoff between those two skills' properties. The only reason I see it's placed in BM is for balancing, given that it's such an excellent skill (in other words: who would use lightning reflexes if both were expertise?). Who knows, given the popularity of Apply Poision, we probably see this one soon in BM also. How about Apply Poision Frogs

I agree that there should be shields for rangers.
Maybe they can be worn on your back. So you're at least saver from enemies that strike from behind.

They do NOT only effect ranger skills. They effect any skill that is listed as a SKILL such as vampiric touch. It also effects warrior shout and weapon attacks. And yes a higher energy pool WOULD give us an advantage because...
Try using a zealous bow string. Combine this with barrage or dual shot or even tigers fury. You shouldn't have many energy problems now.
Then go the whole nine yards and bring marksmens wager. Rangers have to manage their energy just like any other class. With expertise it it a fairly easy thing to do.
You should have been on last night
http://www.geocities.com/thomasuwoo/proof.gif

I don't see how rangers are disadvantaged with their current set of skills at all. For starters they only have 4 differnt atributes to choose from. It gives you the ability to spread your skill points around and be a very versatile and effective character. I don't see why everybody seems to think they need 12-16 points in an atribute to be effective with it.

For an effective ranger with little to no wilderness survival try using Barrage as it removes the need for preperations or Practiced stance combined read the wind.
Some of your best attacks such as dual and deabilitating shot aren't even linked to any atributes.

Tigers Fury is on the beast mastery atribute for a very good reason. It's very powerful. Combined with expertise it can be used over and over. There are many other great and useful skills on the beast master side as well that do not involve pets. Edge of extinction is an amazinly powerful and deadly spirt. Energising winds is another good example.
And tigers fury i not a bow attack it's a stance. It increases attack speed with ANY weapon. Not just bows.

But can you make the "Best" Warrior without stregth? Can you make the "Best" Healer without Devine favor? Refer to above about specalising with a ranger.


Distracting shot is still usefull with 0 exertise. it's not about dmg but the fact that it interupts ANYTHING (Including the ghostly hero's claim resource)
Point Blank shot I find is something I've only ever used with one ranger of mine... And he had a grand total of 3 marksmenship and 0 wilderness survival. I only brough point blank shot for PvE where I needed to do some dmg. In PvP I stick to my role of warrior shouting, spirts, and disruptions.


They can be through use of the skill revive animal.

I do not. Rangers have the best armour in the game seccond only to the warriors armour. And theirs has much greater Elemental resistance. If you really want a sheild play as a Ranger/Warrior


That pretty much covers everything so far. If anyone would genuanly belives the rangers are underpowered and need a boost give me a good reason.

im all for more weapons too, hell i dont mind being converted to a Ninja, ninjas rule, i dont like Crossbows tho, Throwing Knives would be a very nice idea to have, and i agree some more stealth abilities are needed, but im an Interupter so i dont mind if they are not put in.

As an intrupter i think that knives would be useful because

a. they would travel faster (i think) which is useful for an interupter
and
b. they would probably cost less energy to use.

give rangers ninja stars and nunchuks olol

Thomas hit the nail on the head about TF. Yes, it's a matter of balance. Don't you think rangers would be a tad bit overpowered if they could all get a side order of 11 second TF with their McExpertise 14?

Thomas, I feel like you're just trying to find ways to argue. None the less, I will respond.


In this game, there are a total of 18 SKILLS between ALL classes. The majority of these skills cost 5 energy and are in the warrior line. There are a total of 5 SKILLS that cost more than 5 energy. 2 are Ranger, 2 are Necro, 1 is Warrior. Expertise does not give the HUGE advantage you are trying to say it does when speaking about a ranger's secondary.

So now we're sacrificing a pip of regen for the possibilty that that group of Trolls will stay together so that your barrage will remain effective in energy regen. This is also assuming I'm willing to give up my Sundering or Elemental that could possibly do much more damage per shot for me.

I find it easier on my Elementalist or Necro honestly. I'm currently sporting 11 in expertise and still find myself running low. If I was a necro and had 11 in Soul Reaping, I'd probably be a lot better off at the end of many battles energy-wise.

Do not go an tell me "Well go make a necro and stfu then". I have two thank you.


And to counter the power of it, it disables all non attack skills for the duration. I think that's a great balance in itself. I and many others will still argue that it's placement is retarded because it's seemingly there only by the fact that it's named Tiger's Fury.

If it was called "Hunter's Fury" where do you think it would've gone? And wtf do beast masters need increased attack speed on themselves for? They should be focusing on pet attacks primarily. Personal attack speed is moot (at least from what I know of beast masters).




Thomas, to me, it sounds like you're saying Rangers are PERFECT as is. Rangers aren't the only class with problems either. ANet did their best and came out with a pretty good setup for all the classes. A higher starting energy pool (even 5) and bow grips that allowed a + on energy would be a VAST improvement. You sacrifice your health mod or your def mod for energy on your bow.

Quickerning Zepher
Actualy that's a bit mean so I'll elaberate a bit too.
On the bow string. AS long as you are getting off ONE attack every 2 secconds you aren't losing energy. Using barrage or dual shot easily makes this possible, especialy when combined with Tigers fury, Lightning reflexes, flury, I will avenge you, beserker stance etc. When not attacking swich to a differnt bow.
One the necro soul reaping. Maybe you would have an easier time managing your energy but that assums that you've lived while everyone else is dead. I'm not dissing necros but in tearms of armour the rangers is vastly superiour. I do think comparing the class with the seccond highest armour in the game to the spell casters in tearms of spell power is a bit odd.
Actually it diables the skills for 5 seconds. It's duration can can be up to 7 secconds longer then that. And all of your bow atatcks are fine. You just can't use a preparation for 5 secconds. Maybe you could use your prepartions BEFORE tigers fury?
Because maybe they are a primary/secondary warrior and like fight with their pet? Why should they only effect pets? Because it SAYS Beast Mastery? So it must have something to do with your pet? I always thought of tigers fury as getting to know your inner beast
A VAST UNBALANCING improvement. We are powerful enough as is. They may not be perfectly balanced but damn man they are as close as any other class out there. Name another class that is balanced better then the ranger.

u kill a charr. its skin fall off. how did its hide fall to the ground?
you want to make Rangers better? give them a unique skill
Skinning.
other classes when they try to skin, will ruin the hide, or have 5% chance.
Rangers with their wilderness survival, know how to skin the hide from the flesh.

a bear dies, u need a ranger to skin it for its pelt!

arrows
hard to see. give them a glowing arrow tip!

2nd weapon
short sword. almost impossible to melee some 1 with a bow.

bow
any 1 whose shot an arrow knows that you hold the bow vertically not horizontally.

Dual shot? 10 energy for only a 50% increase in damage? Sorry, this one's only worth it if combined with something like ignite or kindle. Which then brings us back to the problem of needing wilderness survival to make an archery skill worthwhile.



So the only reason its linked to that attribute is because its powerful? That doesn't make any sense. That just tells me that the game designers weren't imaginitive enough to come up with an animal related powerful skill to fill that role.
You're right, it's not an 'attack' per se, I'm just thinking of it in terms of an actual archer, where you put your feet has as much to do with the shot as how you aim or hold the bow, so allow me to clarify:

Speaking as an archer, no amount of knowledge of animals or control over them is going to do one thing for my stance when shooting, period.


Your missing the point completely, i'm not talking about being the best at a profession, but at being able to specialize in a single ability, swords, healing, frie spells, etc. Your argument holds so far as expertise functions the same as strength or divine favor, but why wilderness survival? Why a minimum of 3 attributes instead of 2?

Please! No more "ninja posts"!!! No more posts about new abilities, or new weapons, please stick to the topic! Yes, ninjas are cool, but that's not what a ranger is! So either grow up or go start your own thread about ninja rangers!

Quoted for truth.

It Can be combined with a zealous bow string, Read the Wind, Preditory Season, Barbs, and Many other Non wilderness survival skills. And with expertise of 12 (Which many bow based abilities are linked to) it drops to a 5 energy cost. Look just try using Practiced Stance, Read the wind, favorable winds, distracting shot, dual shot, pin down, Penertrating attack and res sig. Bring a sundering bow, a vampiric bow and a zelouse bow. There you go. An archer that SPECALISES in bows and expertise. 2 atributes only. Now tell me what's wrong with it and i'm sure you'll begin to realise why I'm arguing with you.

It's called game balance you twit. In case you haven't noticed differnt skills are link to differnt atributes so that you have to creativly spend your skill points depending on what skills you bring along. And tigers fury doesn't need too many beast mastery points to be effective anyway so stop complaining about it needing to be in the marksmenship tree when it effects ANY sort of attack (Wands and Swords etc.)

See above and going into a primal rage won't help? You can speed up your bow attacks with flurry, frenzy and beserkers stance. They aren't linked to marksmanship. Hell they're not even linked to the ranger tree.
See the first quote.

Keep throwing this stuff at me blackbird. You haven't made a single point yet that i haven't been able to offer a solution to without needing to alter the games current mechanics.

You know what is funny is that people are complaining about rangers needing to use wilderness survival. Think about it, if you saw a ranger not be able to survive in the wild that's really high level and experienced would be hilarious.
Having skills in wilderness should almost be a requirement.

I have a ranger myself and I have found that trap rangers have an advantage over the other classes. You ever goto UW as a group of Necros? Wars? Ele? Monks? or ME? lol no. One of the best group setups is alot of trap rangers and a few W/mo to tank and 1 Monk. I mean with enough trap rangers running Healing Spring the monk might get bored. The funny thing is when you bring a necro who uses frozen soil or something like that. However healing spring is not always a sure thing, which is why you will always need a monk.

The only thing that sucks as a trap ranger is interupt, but mantra of concetration, i think thats the one helps alot or just blind them then trap lol. Hell i even like to hide behind the Tank and trap.

If anything I think Monk is the #1 unbalanced class yet everyone needs one because no one likes to play one enough. Sure some one will say I love being a monk and what not. I have really been wondering why they didn't allow the Monk to be a fighter class as well. However it is like the number one secondary class for a fighter lol. But i'm also jaded as an avid AD&D player. So I think they should have named he monks Clerics.

I will say I have only really been into my ranger and really only researched that class the most. So this is just my opinion I am sure there is probably for flame for every opinion, everyone has. The above has just been my experience. I do think that every class can be incredibly versatile and do not forget, the skills we have not will not be the only skills ever.

All around best Ranger build

Pure Ranger

Expertise 12+1
Marksmanship 11+1
Wilderness Survival 11+1

1. Choking Gas
2. Pin Down
3. Debilitating Shot
4. Quickening Zephyr
5. Melandru's Arrows
6. Poison Arrow
7. Power Shot
8. Distracting Shot

1) Spellcaster-type: Pin a spellcaster down while using Choking Gas. Use Melandru's Arrows and Poison Arrow once the spellcaster is out of energy. It'll do 10 damage per second using both Melandru's Arrows and Poison Arrow and 32 damage every now then with Power Shot. If they try to use a signet use Distracting Shot.

2) Warrior-type: Same method, but only two shots are needed.

You've got two elites there champ. There's good builds, and then there's wishful thinking. I don't suppose you've tried choking gas without an attack speed boost either? Not terribly reliable, especially against monks.

I would like to see "camouflage" as a skill. Surely this is a natural talent that Rangers would have. It just seems to me a Ranger would have this skill available, thats what Rangers do, even more so than archery or pet taming.

dont use those skills and you wont be, but screw that, i reckon a whole new ninja/rogue/assassin class

As a longbow archer I'll argue this. I fire my bow in what is called a "canted" position; I angle the bow to shoot. This is more common in traditionally longbow archery as modern archers use sights which cannot be used in canted positions, but canting a bow does several things: It improves visiblilty, it transfers lateral errors to vertical errors (which is what the longbowman is used to working with) and reduces the chance of the arrow slipping off the arrow shelf. If you look at these points you'll see that a canted bow position is thus most useful when you need to be aware of surroundings and there is a risk of the arrow falling off the shelf, thus in any combat scenario pretty much. The correction of the vertical error rather than a horrizontal error is probably more training than anything else, but again, given that humans present targets vertically it makes some sense that if you were to drift off target you'd rather it be a vertical drift than a horizontal drift when firing on a human.

THAT makes sense about canted. i admit, i'm only an amateur bowman.

D'oh... good point, I wasn't thinking about that until now. I'll use Favorable Winds for that then instead.

And why would I used choking gas with a speed boost when I have the guy snared? He can't get away and he can't use any spells to remove it. The majority of players use spells rather than signets to remove conditions.

Because it has a very short duartion. One of the better things about choking gas is that it inturpes spellcasting to a small area. The more speed, the more interupts, the more effective. You have around 12 secconds, make the most of it.

So now that you can't make a cohesive argument you're resorting to name calling? Real mature. The fact is, you still haven't given any reason beyond the name for it to be linked.



Going into any kind of rage is just going to really screw up your aim, that kind of stuff may work when swinging a sword or other heavy object, but archery requires focus and concentration.


And you haven't made a single solution, just ignored the argument.

Agreed. Anyone who has ever shot a style of bow from a few hundred years ago can tell you that you almost always have to shoot it canted, otherwise the arrow has a nasty habit of falling off

Ok, I'm not going to quote others here, because there are too many. People, when you are posting on a thread, read the original post, and stay on topic!

For reference, things that should be in this thread:

Comments about the comparison between the ranger skill distribution vs the skill distribution of other classes, and appropriateness of those skills and their related attributes.

Comments about suggestions for improvements to the ranger's pet skills or comments about the resurrection situation of pets.

What should not be in this thread:

No suggestions for new ranger weapons

No suggestions for new ranger skills

No suggestions for ranger builds, take them to the build forum (unless the build is being used to illustrate or demonstrate a point related to the original topic, then by all means, please share)

No suggestions for new ranger pets

And absolutely, positively, no ninjas!

Can I make it any more clear? These are fine topics for discussion, but please take them to a different thread, or start your own on the topic of your choice. A thread is opened for discussing a specific topic and sharing ideas on that topic. If someone is discussing baseball, you don't suddenly interject with quantum string theory! The same thing applies here, it's just common courtesy to stick with the topic, if you don't want to talk about it, please go somewhere else. Thank you.

My suggestion would be to take away all forms of snares (Have traps cause opponents to be knockdown or interrupt them, but no snares.), take away their ability to heal in any form, and allow him to them "kite."