[A/W] Shadow of Bonetti

Siren

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

26 Apr 2006 at 04:44 - 1

Haven't done any builds in a while, which kind of sucks, but I had an idea for one during a theatre rehearsal earlier tonight and wanted to see what you guys think.

Quote:

Critical Strikes: 13 (10+3)
Dagger Mastery: 11 (10+1)
Shadow Arts: 13 (11+2)
Tactics: 1

- Unsuspecting Strike (Critical Strikes)
Lead Attack. If this attack hits, you strike for +1...25 damage. If your target was above 90% Health you deal an additional 10...34 damage.
Energy:10 Cast:0 Recharge:4

- Golden Phoenix Strike (Dagger Mastery)
Off-Hand Attack. If you have no enchantments on you, this skill fails. If it hits, Golden Phoenix Strike deals +10...26 damage.
Energy:5 Cast:0 Recharge:8

- Critical Strike (Critical Strikes)
Must follow an off-hand attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +27 damage and results in a critical hit.
Energy:5 Cast:0 Recharge:12

- Critical Eye (Critical Strikes)
Skill. For 10...30 seconds you have an additional 1...6% chance to land a critical hit when attacking. You gain 1 Energy whenever you score a critical hit.
Energy:5 Cast:0 Recharge:30

- Shadow Form [Elite] (Shadow Arts)
Elite Enchantment Spell. For 5...17 seconds, all hostile Spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss. When Shadow form ends, lose all but 5...41 Health.
Energy:5 Cast:1 Recharge:60

- Shadow Refuge (Shadow Arts)
Enchantment Spell. For 4 seconds, you take half damage. When Shadow Refuge ends, you are healed for 30...102.
Energy:5 Cast:1 Recharge:8

- Shroud of Distress (Shadow Arts)
Enchantment Spell. for 30 seconds, if you are below 50% Health, you have a 15...63% chance to evade attacks
Energy:10 Cast:1 Recharge:45

- Resurrection Signet
~~~

I had originally planned to use Bonetti's Defense in this build, for when Shadow Form ends and I'm left with a sliver of health left, but I couldn't really fit it in while still having my other three attributes functioning properly. But I do love the name of the build, even though there's no Bonetti in it, so the name will probably stay. I'm weird like that, eh?

Also, I've wanted to incorporate Shadow Form into a build for a while now, too, but it's always seemed really bizarre...because it's such a funky skill, I guess. It has some potential, I think, just it's difficult to build for.

I should mention that I'm not entirely feeling using so much Shadow Arts there. I'm toying with the idea of consolidating the contigency skills (Shadow Refuge and Shroud of Distress), but then again, they work really well for when Shadow Form ends and I'm left with 40-something health, lol.

Gear is the usual, I think. +energy armor. Zealous Daggers of Enchanting. Or Vamp, if my energy holds up. Don't see why it wouldn't, considering I only have two 10E skills, and all the rest are 5E.

I didn't really have a goal in mind with this build, either. I mainly just made it for Shadow Form, heh, but I suppose it could be a damage-dealer...a damage-dealer that can't be damaged very easily could be devastating as hell, and it's certainly possible to swap-in Twisting Fangs for Critical Strike for a Deep Wound infliction, and since I'm running on mostly low-cost skills in the first place, it would probably do well, energy-wise. Mantis Sting-->Jungle Strike-->Twisting Fangs might be nice.

Thoughts?

suiraCLAW

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

26 Apr 2006 at 13:19 - 2

My opinion: pump your dagger mastery attribute up and try fitting a anti evade/block.

About the elite: shadow form = countdown till defeat, there are probably some better elite's

BTW: critical strike is 10 energy.

SparhawkJC

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

The Amazon Basin

R/Me

26 Apr 2006 at 16:09 - 3

I agree with suiraCLAW, try to pump your DM up, c'mon anything less than 12 dm and you're not doing max dmg with your daggers. I would take all those points in Shadow Arts and place them in tactics. This way you can replace Shadow Form, Shadow Refuge, and Shroud of Distress with something along the lines of Gladiator's Defense, Heal Sig, and Bonneti's Defense.
If you're going with the Leaping Mantis Sting+Jungle Strike+Twisting Fangs combo I highly recommend the Victory Is Mine! for your heal and energy regain. This would allow you to 2 extra skill slots to put Bonneti's and Wild Blow(only costs 1 energy with Critical Strikes at 8, zealous daggers, and critical eye).
In my opinion Shadow Form is one of the most useless assassin elites in the game, bested only by Seeping Wound and Flashing Blades.

fallot

I'm the king

Join Date: Nov 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew: Grand Phallus and Chairman Pro Tempore

26 Apr 2006 at 16:35 - 4

How do you envision using Shadow Form ? What kind of situations would you consider using this in ? How do you plan to deal with the loss of health at the end of the duration ?

Edit: Also, did you factor in the 60 second recharge on Shadow Form while making this build ?

Siren

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

26 Apr 2006 at 18:39 - 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by fallot
How do you envision using Shadow Form? What kind of situations would you consider using this in?

When I find myself under heavy fire. It probably could be used in a guild lord assassination, as well.

Quote: How do you plan to deal with the loss of health at the end of the duration? Shadow Refuge, Shroud of Distress. Tactics stances, maybe, and I had also considered going with some Illusion magic if I changed to Mes secondary. Illusion of Weakness, get a heal from an ally to cover it, then go into Shadow Form. If Shadow Form's ending effect counts as damage, then IoW will cover it right back up.

If I'm not using Mes secondary, Shadow Form-->Shadow Refuge (when Shadow Form ends)-->Shroud of Distress

I may swap out Shroud of Distress for Return. We'll see how it turns out.

Quote:

Edit: Also, did you factor in the 60 second recharge on Shadow Form while making this build? The recharge is one thing that needs to change with Shadow Form. 60 seconds isn't viable at all. But I really can't be bothered about the recharge, anyway, because I wouldn't want to be using Shadow Form a lot in the first place. Given the nature of the skill, the longer recharge is actually beneficial...it cuts down on the number of times a player will use it in a match. Having your health dropped down to 45 every 65 seconds isn't terribly horrible, though I think a 45-second recharge would go a long way in making the skill more appealing.

Also regarding the recharge, I strongly believe that Assassin weapons should have skill recharge mods, if only 10% chances. Most Warriors can use off-hands if they want to. Casters can easily get a 40/20 set-up.

I know I'd like to see Vamp Daggers of Enchanting with a 10% chance of improving skill recharge, or 20% chance of improving Shadow Arts recharge. I don't think HamWars really need it, because most of their attack skills are Adre-based, anyway, so they don't have recharge times, but Assassins and Rangers should definitely get recharge mods on their two-handed weapons...it just makes sense...at least to me.

Sparhawk, the problem with bringing stuff like Glad's Defense and Bonetti's is that Assassins need to use their skills. Yeah, we can auto-attack and do some damage just fine, but we're losing a lot of effectiveness then. I can see bringing Bonetti's in case a Warrior starts to beat on you, but Assassins have some nice evasion/block skills of their own.

Regarding ViM...nah. lol. I don't want to create a ViM Assassin, for a few reasons.

One, I'm not inflicting enough conditions to get the heals and energy return where they'd need to be.

Two, there are already ViMA builds.

Three, I just don't want to use my Elite slot for it.

Oh, and CLAW, care to link me to where Critical Strike is listed as 10E?

fallot

I'm the king

Join Date: Nov 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew: Grand Phallus and Chairman Pro Tempore

26 Apr 2006 at 19:58 - 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
Oh, and CLAW, care to link me to where Critical Strike is listed as 10E? I assume you are using GuildWiki, which has the outdated skill descriptions. Here is one place where the descriptions are recent:

Frozen Soil Guild Wars Resources

GWonline.net also has updated skill descriptions.

Edit: No you arent, otherwise Critical Strike wouldnt have been +27 damage, or maybe someone updated the wiki with the damage but not the energy cost. Its 10e.

lightblade

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

The Etereal Guard

Me/Mo

27 Apr 2006 at 00:56 - 7

Arg...shadow form is too risky!

Chilblains => instant death

Rion

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2005

Blashyrkh

27 Apr 2006 at 08:12 - 8

Yeah, since every team has someone carrying Chilblains...

LaserLight

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

La La Land

[NOVA]

A/

27 Apr 2006 at 20:18 - 9

Pay no mind, Rion. Should see the MM Nerf thread. Apparently every single group of enemies in existence happens to have a Judge's Insight Barrager and a Verata's Aura waiting around just to spite, or in this case Smite, the poor, helpless MM.

Any build comes out, and it's lousy because builds designed specifically to counter that build are possible. It's called the Rule of Perfect Counter, and it assumes that no matter what your build is, you will, inevitably and frequently, engage the perfect anti-your-build build in battle and thus prove the worthlessness of your build.

The only exceptions to the Rule of Perfect Counter are, of course, the mainline, heavily-abused builds that nobody would want to include counters for, since they're...you know...mainline and heavily-abused and everywhere. No, it's much more efficient to bring Perfect Counters to esoteric, rarely-seen builds because those are the ones that do the most damage.

[massivesarcasm]

Have I gotten through to at least one young idiot out there? Please? I'm sick of this Rule of Perfect Counter crap! IT DOESN'T HAPPEN!!!

Metanoia

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2006

28 Apr 2006 at 10:39 - 10

Shadow Form scares me, to be honest. Once you've cast it you're dooming yourself to a huge self-inflicted spike. If anyone sees you cast it they're going to call it for sure and baby sit you with a mini-spike the second it wears off.

Besides, you're also missing any movement abilities. Without shadow step-skills or speed buffs you're going to have a very hard time getting close enough to do anything. You aren't going to be able to split off and kill NPCs because you'll be so slow you'll just get taken down by their flagger. In the main melee you'll basically be a slow naked weak Warrior as you lack the defence, the deep wound, the IAS buff and the speed buff.

IMO mobility is the Assassin's greatest asset. You mentioned that Shadow Form could be useful for assassinating Guild Lords. Why don't you create the rest of the skill set around that theme? An NPC-killer. It'll have to be able to beat most enemies 1 on 1 (flaggers) and have the mobility to escape ganks while still being able to make short work of NPCs.

Yukito Kunisaki

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2005

Chicago, IL

W/N

28 Apr 2006 at 15:04 - 11

With Shadow Form on himself, how you gonna stop him from getting near you? Kite? Well, yeah I suppose so, but you're not gonna slow him down

They are right though, you need something. If you're gambling on Mantis Strike, that's fine. It's good to have a speed OR a snare skill, not really if you have both...

I say replace Shroud of Distress with Bonetti's Defense, if you activate it with the new Shadow Refuge just beforehand, you'll get all of your energy back if you're mobbed, but in pvp, where warriors are the only melee, you may have little use for it.

Siren

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

28 Apr 2006 at 17:17 - 12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metanoia
Shadow Form scares me, to be honest. Once you've cast it you're dooming yourself to a huge self-inflicted spike. If anyone sees you cast it they're going to call it for sure and baby sit you with a mini-spike the second it wears off.

The trick is using is intelligently, and using cover.

Quote:
Besides, you're also missing any movement abilities. Without shadow step-skills or speed buffs you're going to have a very hard time getting close enough to do anything. You aren't going to be able to split off and kill NPCs because you'll be so slow you'll just get taken down by their flagger. Quote: Originally Posted by Siren previously in the thread I may swap out Shroud of Distress for Return. We'll see how it turns out. I'll be able to get out just fine if I bring Return. With the recent changes to Shadow Refuge, I may very well remove Shadow Refuge, too. I'm not fond of the skill at all anymore.

And taken down by their flagger? Are you serious? I'm not scared of an Ele or a Ranger, mate. And I've never had any trouble at all getting into a base and killing NPCs without a speedbuff, if I were so inclined to kill NPCs.

Regarding speed buffs...I've never had a problem with not bringing speed buffs before.

Quote: In the main melee you'll basically be a slow naked weak Warrior as you lack the defence, the deep wound, the IAS buff and the speed buff. Assassins are "glass cannons" anyway, so I'll still have limited defenses regardless. Plus, had Shadow Refuge not been changed, that would have provided some nice damage mitigation/defense right there. And Shadow Form provides a neat defense.

Regarding the Deep Wound:

Quote: Originally Posted by Siren in his very first post
Mantis Sting-->Jungle Strike-->Twisting Fangs might be nice. Regarding IAS, because you never need it when you play them correctly. lol

Quote:

You mentioned that Shadow Form could be useful for assassinating Guild Lords. Why don't you create the rest of the skill set around that theme? An NPC-killer. It'll have to be able to beat most enemies 1 on 1 (flaggers) If I want to create an NPC-killer, I'm bringing Fangs of Melandru with Death's Charge. Guild lord assassination was one of the options for Shadow of Bonetti.

Quote:

and have the mobility to escape ganks while still being able to make short work of NPCs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren previously in the thread
I may swap out Shroud of Distress for Return. We'll see how it turns out.

Metanoia

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2006

28 Apr 2006 at 20:26 - 13

Okay...

"The trick is using is intelligently, and using cover."
If by "cover" you mean your team and a lot of distance between you and the enemy, then yes. I agree. If you mean hiding behind obsticals, then I don't think that would fall under most people's definition of "intelligent use". As I'm sure you're aware, there are numerous non-projectile ranged DD abilities out there.

"I'll be able to get out just fine if I bring Return. With the recent changes to Shadow Refuge, I may very well remove Shadow Refuge, too. I'm not fond of the skill at all anymore."
Yes, that IS a shadow step skill. But if you read the rest of what I said you'll see I wasn't talking about escape. With nothing but your un-buffed movement rate to get into melee range, you'll be lucky to land a single hit on anything but a Warrior. Nevermind getting someone to stand still for 3-4 seconds once you reach them to unleashe your combo.

"And taken down by their flagger? Are you serious? I'm not scared of an Ele or a Ranger, mate. And I've never had any trouble at all getting into a base and killing NPCs without a speedbuff, if I were so inclined to kill NPCs."
Scared or not, it doesn't change the fact they'll just snare, kite and kill you with ease in a one on one situation. -If you were NPC hunting, for example.

"Regarding speed buffs...I've never had a problem with not bringing speed buffs before."
Then I'll assume you've never played a melee character before. Have a quick poke around the Gladiator Arena section of this forum if you don't believe how important speedbuffs/mobility are to a melee character.

"...[the rest]..."
I'm sorry, I should have been more specific.

-You aren't going to be able to spike, your combo will be sluggish without IAS. Your deep wound relies on 3 slow attacks(no IAS) hitting a stationary target(no speedbuff to chase kiters) and is easily disrupted by numerous abilities such as Guardian/Aegis/WaM etc. This is ignoring the fact that you're going to have to get into melee range in the first place and that they'll see you coming a mile away.

-You aren't going to be able to provide any real DPS towards your team's total output. You don't have the stamina of a Warrior to bounce around the enemy back lines. Even if you did, your DPS will be SEVERELY reduced because of the fact you can't chase kiting characters anyway.

As for escaping ganks while going Rambo on NPCs... Unless you're planning to have a Monk baby sit you just outside of Return's casting range, how is it going to help when the enemy easily outmaneuvers and traps you? Or does Return now have Heal Party-type range?

Hmm, that was very negative...

Siren

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

28 Apr 2006 at 22:27 - 14

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metanoia
If by "cover" you mean your team and a lot of distance between you and the enemy, then yes. I agree. If you mean hiding behind obsticals, then I don't think that would fall under most people's definition of "intelligent use". As I'm sure you're aware, there are numerous non-projectile ranged DD abilities out there.

Obsidian Flame what? Yeah, I know about all of the non-line-of-sight spells out there. And when I can get around that stuff just fine presently, adapting that strategy to use Shadow Form won't be an issue, despite your efforts here to conclude otherwise.

Quote:
Yes, that IS a shadow step skill. But if you read the rest of what I said you'll see I wasn't talking about escape. With nothing but your un-buffed movement rate to get into melee range, you'll be lucky to land a single hit on anything but a Warrior. Nevermind getting someone to stand still for 3-4 seconds once you reach them to unleashe your combo.

Then I'll assume you've never played a melee character before. Have a quick poke around the Gladiator Arena section of this forum if you don't believe how important speedbuffs/mobility are to a melee character.

Who says my target needs to stand still? All of your talk about needing speed-boosts and such...is entirely moot, because you obviously haven't read up on Assassin skills. My very first post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren Mantis Sting-->Jungle Strike-->Twisting Fangs

Mantis Sting. Check it out before telling me I'm going to have issues with Kiting. My target wants to run? Let them.

And either way, I'll have more than enough opportunity to get in range...because I play intelligently.

Quote:
Scared or not, it doesn't change the fact they'll just snare, kite and kill you with ease in a one on one situation. -If you were NPC hunting, for example.
Yes, because NPCs pose so great a threat, and the other team will surely send one or two of their own characters away from the front of the battle. lol.

Quote: I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. How about you actually quote me, instead? You know, be more specific? "The rest" is vague. Be specific.

Quote:

-You aren't going to be able to spike, your combo will be sluggish without IAS. Your deep wound relies on 3 slow attacks(no IAS) hitting a stationary target(no speedbuff to chase kiters) and is easily disrupted by numerous abilities such as Guardian/Aegis/WaM etc. This is ignoring the fact that you're going to have to get into melee range in the first place and that they'll see you coming a mile away. Play Assassin. When you tell me I won't be able to spike...it's obvious you haven't played Assassin. lol. My attacks will be slow...it's obvious you haven't played Assassin. My combo will be sluggish with IAS...it's obvious you haven't played Assassin.

Quote:

-You aren't going to be able to provide any real DPS towards your team's total output. Play Assassin.

Quote:

Even if you did, your DPS will be SEVERELY reduced because of the fact you can't chase kiting characters anyway. Play Assassin. Mantis Sting. Read about it.

Quote:

As for escaping ganks while going Rambo on NPCs... Unless you're planning to have a Monk baby sit you just outside of Return's casting range, how is it going to help when the enemy easily outmaneuvers and traps you? Or does Return now have Heal Party-type range? Well now, using Return will entirely depend on what I'm doing, now won't it? If I'm going out alone, I'm bringing Recall. If I'm staying within aggro range of my team, I'm bringing Return. You don't have the point you think you do. lol

Metanoia

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2006

29 Apr 2006 at 00:45 - 15

Sigh...

"Obsidian Flame what? Yeah, I know about all of the non-line-of-sight spells out there. And when I can get around that stuff just fine presently, adapting that strategy to use Shadow Form won't be an issue, despite your efforts here to conclude otherwise."
Exactly what is this "strategy" that renders you immune to non-projectile ranged DDs without being out of their casting range entirely?

"Who says my target needs to stand still? All of your talk about needing speed-boosts and such...is entirely moot, because you obviously haven't read up on Assassin skills. My very first post: Mantis Sting-->Jungle Strike-->Twisting Fangs.
Mantis Sting. Check it out before telling me I'm going to have issues with Kiting. My target wants to run? Let them.

And either way, I'll have more than enough opportunity to get in range...because I play intelligently."

Oh, my mistake. Your melee-ranged moving-foe hit-dependant cripple solves all your mobility problems. Maybe you should stop using the term "I play intelligently" and replace it with "I play RA" when you talk about things that aren't possible against competent players.

"Yes, because NPCs pose so great a threat, and the other team will surely send one or two of their own characters away from the front of the battle. lol."
Tell that to anyone who's ever played against WM in GvG.

"How about you actually quote me, instead? You know, be more specific? "The rest" is vague. Be specific."
Apologies, again. Let's pretend I'm speaking extra slow and loud from now on. "The rest" of your post was directed at something I'd said, I reiterated and expanded on that to be more specific in my reasoning.

"Play Assassin. When you tell me I won't be able to spike...it's obvious you haven't played Assassin. lol. My attacks will be slow...it's obvious you haven't played Assassin. My combo will be sluggish with IAS...it's obvious you haven't played Assassin."
When all else fails, cover you ears (or eyes?) and shout(type?) "lalalala". Your combo will be sluggish. If Flashbots can catch Eviscerate-Exicutioner's + IAS which takes aproximately 1.3 seconds from the beginning of Eviscerate's swing, how hard do you think it'll be to catch your 3.5 second "spike"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metanoia
You aren't going to be able to provide any real DPS towards your team's total output.

"Play Assassin."
Lalalala. This one is just common sense. Unless you can stay out in the think of things and keep attacking, you're not going to be able to come close to a Warrior's pressure damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metanoia Even if you did, your DPS will be SEVERELY reduced because of the fact you can't chase kiting characters anyway.

"Play Assassin. Mantis Sting. Read about it."
Lalalala. I know what it does, thanks. Maybe you should consider the many reasons why Warriors don't rely solely on cripple.

"Well now, using Return will entirely depend on what I'm doing, now won't it? If I'm going out alone, I'm bringing Recall. If I'm staying within aggro range of my team, I'm bringing Return. You don't have the point you think you do. lol"

Aha, progress!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metanoia
IMO mobility is the Assassin's greatest asset. You mentioned that Shadow Form could be useful for assassinating Guild Lords. Why don't you create the rest of the skill set around that theme? An NPC-killer. It'll have to be able to beat most enemies 1 on 1 (flaggers) and have the mobility to escape ganks while still being able to make short work of NPCs. To which you replied...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren
I may swap out Shroud of Distress for Return. We'll see how it turns out. The fact Return is unsuitable for the job was my point.

Edit: Meh, you didn't make this topic for people's opinions, thoughts or advice. This was a "look at my leet build" thread. I'm through here, feel free to post "Lalalala" some more though.

Siren

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

29 Apr 2006 at 05:03 - 16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metanoia
Sigh...

Precisely. Keep going. I'm having a blast. Obviously you aren't.

Quote:
Exactly what is this "strategy" that renders you immune to non-projectile ranged DDs without being out of their casting range entirely?

Um, it's called exploiting the other team's mistakes? Not a difficult concept, you know. Exploiting limits of attention spans is a wonderful thing. I do it as much as I can. More of the PvP game in GW is mind-games. You figure out your foes, you've won the match, because then you can exploit the weaknesses you see. Build weakness doesn't matter at all when you know how to hit them where they really can't defend against it.

Quote:
Oh, my mistake. Your melee-ranged moving-foe hit-dependant cripple solves all your mobility problems. Maybe you should stop using the term "I play intelligently" and replace it with "I play RA" when you talk about things that aren't possible against competent players.

Oh noes! RA!!1!!11 I'm so worried about someone accusing me of doing RA, when my experience using such strategies is HA and GvG from just a few days ago! Your entire rebuttal just got thrown back in your face! What are you gonna do now? Accuse me of hunting n00b players in HA? Tell me the only way I can win in HA is if I pick on stupid players? Please, I certainly would love you to try.

Quote:
Tell that to anyone who's ever played against WM in GvG.

Oh, yes, WM will surely come in here and trounce my exact build, and I'm going to be so stupid as to go and knock out NPCs by myself when my guild is facing WM. lol. You have no point here, do you?

Quote:
Apologies, again. Let's pretend I'm speaking extra slow and loud from now on. "The rest" of your post was directed at something I'd said, I reiterated and expanded on that to be more specific in my reasoning. Extra slow? How kind of you! Really, I think you're swell! You jam some misguided sarcasm in your post when it's entirely unnecessary! Go you!

Dude. Since you wanted to be specific, you should be specific. Go ahead and be sarcastic in the reply. Be my guest. You'll just continue to look like a total douchebag.

Quote: When all else fails, cover you ears (or eyes?) and shout(type?) "lalalala". Your combo will be sluggish. If Flashbots can catch Eviscerate-Exicutioner's + IAS which takes aproximately 1.3 seconds from the beginning of Eviscerate's swing, how hard do you think it'll be to catch your 3.5 second "spike"? Wait a minute...do you honestly believe that Warrior strategies and timing apply to Assassin?

Quote: Lalalala. This one is just common sense. Unless you can stay out in the think of things and keep attacking, you're not going to be able to come close to a Warrior's pressure damage. If you honestly believe that, I'll look forward to dropping you just as fast (if not faster) than a Warrior can, with me using a variety of different heavy-hitting Assassin builds.

Quote:

I know what it does, thanks. Maybe you should consider the many reasons why Warriors don't rely solely on cripple. That's because most Warriors aren't Assassins, mate. They need to rely on Adrenaline build-up to do anything. I Cripple my target, and within the next 4 seconds, they're dead. Warriors need those 4 seconds to build Adre usually. Assassins don't. Warriors don't rely solely on Cripple because they really can't kill in a few seconds, unless they're fully Adrenalined before that point. Assassins are always fully Adrenalined, as it were.

Quote:

Aha, progress! Not really, because I was talking about using Return long before you ever came into the thread, and Recall was merely an incidental aside...an afterthought, if you will. OMG I'm so seeing your side of things! You're making dramatic revelations! You're not saying anything truly insightful. Plus, I'd only be using Recall if I were going to kill meaningless little Archers...something that I never said I was looking to do with this build.

Quote:

To which you replied... Yeah, I replied by quoting something I had said long before you entered this thread. lol

Quote:

The fact Return is unsuitable for the job was my point. The job being what? Your shortsighted and myopic idea that this build was designed for solely killing NPCs? Let's get one thing straight here. Nowhere have I ever said or implied I would be using this build to kill meaningless little Archers in GvG. I had mentioned Guild Lord assassinations. That was it. You were the one who launched into this "NPC GANK" thought process. So do me a favor and either get with the program or just take your lame attempts at playing spin-doctor and shove them.

Quote:

Edit: Meh, you didn't make this topic for people's opinions, thoughts or advice. This was a "look at my leet build" thread. I'm through here, feel free to post "Lalalala" some more though. No, I was looking for meaningful criticism, not some short-sighted little twerp's myopic and asinine opinion...especially when that little twerp obviously hasn't played Assassin enough to offer meaningful criticism, because had he had the necessary experience, he wouldn't be talking out of his ass, telling me how I won't be able to do damage with this build, when any experienced Assassin player knows that virtually any Assassin build can be absolutely deadly when played correctly.

Go ahead and try to spin my responses as "lalalalala." I'm not the one coming in here and talking out of my ass, and ignoring the fundamentals of the Assassin profession. You're treating Assassins like a Warrior. That's where your entire rebuttals are coming from, and you're using it as a basis to ignore what I'm saying, even when what I'm saying comes from experience playing Assassin.

~~~

To everyone, when I post a build--or when anyone posts a build--let's make an effort to have relevant and insightful responses/critiques to the build, shall we? I can only count a small handful of people in the Assassin forum who should be allowed to post build critiques, and that's pretty damn pathetic, if you ask me.

chumsy

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

29 Apr 2006 at 07:23 - 17

Not to be butting in, but maybe the purpose of shadow form was to let you get out of a fight at the last second rather than get into one.

I'm also wondering if Shadowform protects you from EoE dmg - did anyone test it?

MysticPain

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2006

29 Apr 2006 at 07:28 - 18

Shadow form has been interesting me lately, thinking up special ideas for it. Comboed with a (very) well timed Shadow Refuge, it's a grace period ending in a 6 regen from low health. More if you're timed with monks who are breezing you when they see you're using this skill. Ctrl+click would help them, obviously.

But let's look at some potentially deeper meaning. Shadow Form could be used in conjunction with Shadow Step, so that if you do it correctly, you will warp back just a moment before form runs out. You charge in, invulnerable, and then are warped back to safety for a quick heal and you're back in the fight. The use is limited, but experimentation could take it far, I think.

Poison Ivy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

Toronto

Hopping

Mo/A

29 Apr 2006 at 07:33 - 19

^If your running, EoE shouldn't be that much of a problem.

chumsy

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

29 Apr 2006 at 07:36 - 20

Uh I said EoE (Edge of Extinction), not AoE (Area of Effect) - unless you really weren't mistaken, but I don't see how you could run from a EoE bomb.

Metanoia

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2006

29 Apr 2006 at 13:47 - 21

"Um, it's called exploiting the other team's mistakes? Not a difficult concept, you know. Exploiting limits of attention spans is a wonderful thing. I do it as much as I can. More of the PvP game in GW is mind-games. You figure out your foes, you've won the match, because then you can exploit the weaknesses you see. Build weakness doesn't matter at all when you know how to hit them where they really can't defend against it."

"Oh noes! RA!!1!!11 I'm so worried about someone accusing me of doing RA, when my experience using such strategies is HA and GvG from just a few days ago! Your entire rebuttal just got thrown back in your face! What are you gonna do now? Accuse me of hunting n00b players in HA? Tell me the only way I can win in HA is if I pick on stupid players? Please, I certainly would love you to try."

Heh, so "playing intelligently" did mean "playing bad players". Your "strategy" to avoid being spiked by non-projectile ranged DDs at the end of Shadow Form without moving out of their range is... Hope they're not paying attention? What happens when you're playing people who know what they're doing? They'll call Shadow Form upon sight and then come back to you in 12 or so seconds to finish you after your self-inflicted spike.

Given all your HA/GvG experience I would have expected you to make use of the rest of your team by pointing out that thanks to the 3 second flashing icon warning you'll be able to get your monk to perform a near-perfect infuse on you.

"Oh, yes, WM will surely come in here and trounce my exact build, and I'm going to be so stupid as to go and knock out NPCs by myself when my guild is facing WM. lol. You have no point here, do you?"
Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Yes, because NPCs pose so great a threat, and the other team will surely send one or two of their own characters away from the front of the battle. lol.

You have seen WM play GvG, right? They're incredibly aggressive when it comes to NPC-killing and they dominate at VoD because of it. So, yes. NPCs do pose so great a threat.

"Wait a minute...do you honestly believe that Warrior strategies and timing apply to Assassin?"
What does this have to do with what I said? I never labled them "Warrior strategies", it's just a simple number crunching. A Warrior can deliver 184 + 2 attacks worth of damage in 1.3 seconds. Your Assassin build does aproximately 180 + 4 attacks worth of damage in just under 4 seconds. 130 + 2 attacks worth of that comes from Twisting Fangs, the last attack in your combo. There's more than enough time to cast Blinding Flash on you or Guardian on your target (heck, most Monks pre-cast that when they see melee characters running in to spike).

"If you honestly believe that, I'll look forward to dropping you just as fast (if not faster) than a Warrior can, with me using a variety of different heavy-hitting Assassin builds."
Perhaps, but not with this build I'll bet. Also, you seem to be confusing pressure damage with spike damage.

"That's because most Warriors aren't Assassins, mate. They need to rely on Adrenaline build-up to do anything. I Cripple my target, and within the next 4 seconds, they're dead. Warriors need those 4 seconds to build Adre usually. Assassins don't. Warriors don't rely solely on Cripple because they really can't kill in a few seconds, unless they're fully Adrenalined before that point. Assassins are always fully Adrenalined, as it were."
And Assassins aren't Warriors, either. Warriors build up adrenaline while applying pressure damage by bouncing around the enemy's back line. You can't count the time taken to gain adrenaline as part of the spike. Besides, your build isn't "always fully adrenalined" because the only real damage in your combo (30+DW+2 attacks) has a 15 second cooldown. If anything you'll "spike" less often than a Warrior and deal less pressure damage between the spikes. I've already given reasons why the "spike" itself is ineffective.

"Yeah, I replied by quoting something I had said long before you entered this thread. lol"
Check again, I quoted you quoting yourself.

"The job being what? Your shortsighted and myopic idea that this build was designed for solely killing NPCs? Let's get one thing straight here. Nowhere have I ever said or implied I would be using this build to kill meaningless little Archers in GvG. I had mentioned Guild Lord assassinations. That was it. You were the one who launched into this "NPC GANK" thought process. So do me a favor and either get with the program or just take your lame attempts at playing spin-doctor and shove them."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metanoia

Besides, you're also missing any movement abilities. Without shadow step-skills or speed buffs you're going to have a very hard time getting close enough to do anything. You aren't going to be able to split off and kill NPCs because you'll be so slow you'll just get taken down by their flagger. In the main melee you'll basically be a slow naked weak Warrior as you lack the defence, the deep wound, the IAS buff and the speed buff.

IMO mobility is the Assassin's greatest asset. You mentioned that Shadow Form could be useful for assassinating Guild Lords. Why don't you create the rest of the skill set around that theme? An NPC-killer. It'll have to be able to beat most enemies 1 on 1 (flaggers) and have the mobility to escape ganks while still being able to make short work of NPCs. As you can see, I never said this build was designed to kill NPCs. I said it wouldn't be able to kill NPCs OR contribute much in the main melee. Then I merely suggested that perhaps you could make better use of Shadow Form in a soloist-type build.

"No, I was looking for meaningful criticism, not some short-sighted little twerp's myopic and asinine opinion...especially when that little twerp obviously hasn't played Assassin enough to offer meaningful criticism, because had he had the necessary experience, he wouldn't be talking out of his ass, telling me how I won't be able to do damage with this build, when any experienced Assassin player knows that virtually any Assassin build can be absolutely deadly when played correctly."
You weren't looking for meaningful criticism, you were looking for a pat on the back. Besides, I did give meaningful criticism. I've explained why this build will come out sub-par when it comes to damage-dealing. I recognised that you were trying to use a seemingly underpowered elite and I respected that and suggested another application of it in a build.

"Go ahead and try to spin my responses as "lalalalala." I'm not the one coming in here and talking out of my ass, and ignoring the fundamentals of the Assassin profession. You're treating Assassins like a Warrior. That's where your entire rebuttals are coming from, and you're using it as a basis to ignore what I'm saying, even when what I'm saying comes from experience playing Assassin."
I'm treating this Assassin like a Warrior for a very good reason. You're trying to use it like a Warrior. I'm not ignoring what you're saying, I'm actually giving reasons and evidence as to why I disagree.

I have to ask, exactly how long have you been playing Assassin in high-end GvG?

@MysticPain, You might want to test Illusion of Weakness with Shadow Form if you can spare the secondary. Shadow Form should prevent IoW being stripped. You could also try using Arcane Echo with it... Just a thought.

fallot

I'm the king

Join Date: Nov 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew: Grand Phallus and Chairman Pro Tempore

04 May 2006 at 10:22 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Yes, because NPCs pose so great a threat, and the other team will surely send one or two of their own characters away from the front of the battle. lol. Play much GvG ?