Minion Master Not So Bad Afterall... - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Canadian Bacon

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2006

Ontario, Canada

Kingdom of Tyria [KoT]

28 Apr 2006 at 00:27 - 1

I have been playing my MM necro all day, and I have decided to stop calling the update to Minion Mastery a "nerf" and just go with "update".

Here's why:

1) 10 Minion Limit is actually not sucha bad thing; your 11th minion replaces the weakest member of your previous army of 10. So, by continually casting as you would hae before the update, you constantly rejuvenate your army. You end up with 10 fit-as-a-fiddle minions instead of 20 body-blocking, space occupying, and (most importantly) dieing minions.

2) Blood of the Master now affects all of your minions, not just the ones around you. This is much more convenient.

3) Ok, even I find it hard to justify the double pounding on Verata's Sacrifice. However, I do enjoy the feature about 3 or less = instand recharge. Quite handy at times.

So, there it is, my logic, in all its glory. I have been playing by this logic all day, and I have found no problems with it. Feel free to pick this apart amongst yourselves (or defend it, that would definitely be cool too) to your heart's content. I won't heed a word of it

quickmonty

Ancient Windbreaker

Join Date: May 2005

28 Apr 2006 at 00:35 - 2

Haven't had a chance to play my MM yet today, but had thoughts along the same line.

10 minions isn't all that bad, especially if they are replaced with fresh ones.

Didn't know that they buffed BotM. Sounds good.

With the nerf (for lack of better term) on Verata's, you can still keep 3minions up between battles. If one of those happens to be that new elite, now that is sweet.

Thanks for the report

Canadian Bacon

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2006

Ontario, Canada

Kingdom of Tyria [KoT]

28 Apr 2006 at 00:39 - 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by quickmonty

Haven't had a chance to play my MM yet today, but had thoughts along the same line.

10 minions isn't all that bad, especially if they are replaced with fresh ones.

Didn't know that they buffed BotM. Sounds good.

With the nerf (for lack of better term) on Verata's, you can still keep 3minions up between battles. If one of those happens to be that new elite, now that is sweet.

Thanks for the report

Thx for the kind words

BTW has anyone posted up a thread about the enw asian gwen? I'm gona go ahead and do that.

Fargin Scotchsman

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2006

wudn't you like too know...

Noobs Of Steel

28 Apr 2006 at 00:47 - 4

with the "buff" of botm, they also added a higher hp cost. second, vs lasts for max of 15 sec, that means, unless u got echo, ect. u got 45sec of spammin botm til u get to more corpses, and unless u got self heal or monk willin to heal u, u screwd. personally, i enjoyed havin 15-20 mini tanks body lockin monsters so they cudnt get to me, plus, u didnt need a tank fo missions, and since there are many idiot tanks out there, i consider that a good thing. i despise this "update," and personally do consider it a nerf.

.killjoy

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2006

Mo/Me

28 Apr 2006 at 00:54 - 5

Yea making BoTM helps alot when if effects all of you minions not just area.

kaldak

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2006

28 Apr 2006 at 01:08 - 6

It hadnt occured to me till now, but when you have 10 minions up and highish soul reaping creating a new minion will give you back a significant amount of your energy instantly. I'd still prefer a massive army, and energy was never a great concern for me in the first place, but at least its something...

(10 fiends up; SR=10)
enemy dies: +10 energy
animate fiend: -25 energy
old fiend instantly dies: +10 energy

with horrors or bone minions you'd actually have a positive net energy.

hunter

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

28 Apr 2006 at 01:20 - 7

Quote:

Originally Posted by .killjoy

Yea making BoTM helps alot when if effects all of you minions not just area. It also makes for your monk have a less boring time in tombs since now he would be healing TWO necros instead of one all the time.

Solberg the Exiled

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Xen of Onslaught

N/

28 Apr 2006 at 01:36 - 8

Well...I guess it's not that bad if your new minion replace the one at the lowest health. Sitll though, Verata's was still completely nerfed. I still say, just get rid of the fac that minions degen naturally and then I'd be okay with this uipdate.

unholy guardian

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Lost Haven

A/Mo

28 Apr 2006 at 02:15 - 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solberg the Exiled

Well...I guess it's not that bad if your new minion replace the one at the lowest health. Sitll though, Verata's was still completely nerfed. I still say, just get rid of the fac that minions degen naturally and then I'd be okay with this uipdate. then they would have to work like spirits and die in 90 seconds, they could just make them live a little longer though idk, i havnt done much with an mm in a while

Canadian Bacon

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2006

Ontario, Canada

Kingdom of Tyria [KoT]

28 Apr 2006 at 03:31 - 10

The minions themselves seem different to me. Before, I could never dream of 10 minions lasting as long as mine have today. I don't know if maybe their degen is a tad slower, or maybe they do more damage so bodies pop faster, or maybe I'm just imagining things.

I took a stab at the Foreign Quarter mission earlier. Unfortunately it was bugged and we couldn't finish. My point is that, as someone said before, I had absolutely no energy problems. Most times I had at least 5 up, and we basically steamrolled it until the glitch. I never ran low on energy, and I always had an army at my disposal.

Veron

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2006

Leather Rebels [LR]

28 Apr 2006 at 04:59 - 11

But correct me if I'm wrong, BotM with 10 minions is a 25% health sac. It's not really a skill you can throw around too much.

Ellena

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2005

28 Apr 2006 at 05:29 - 12

I think that ocne we get the new skils and play aroudn with the changes that we'll find thigns arent as bad as we feared. now, it'll take adaption, which takes time, but my first thought is to adapt the 55 necro build for this somehow...

Minion necros aren't targets normally ( they never attack directly and such and with the new botm ranges can stand WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY back to prevent aggro...)

I'll play aroudn with it wish I had a golem btu I'll test the basics in a lower level area to see hwo ti feels)

alpha ver of 55hp minionmancer shoudl look a bti like...

death 16
blodo 11
soulk reaping 11

blood renewal
offerign of blood (elite. yeah flesh golem si elite, btu I dotn have oen yet, so might as well take the energy...)
summon horror( for emergencys and for energy abuse as mentioned
sumon fiends (main army)
botm ( spam time...)
death nova ( might as well)
res signet
optional ( veratas... maybe...)

gear:
standard 55 fare except with max death isntead of curses). wand should be death appropriate, too obviously.

ther'es no ps,e tc.. you CAN do that if you want, btu the point here is to stay far abck and summon minions;spam botm to keep them alive. with the low energy costs fo botm and multipel eneergy tricks, you shoudl eb abel to heal yoru miniosn wodnerfully...

this is a really quick.dirty build untested, but it's intended to shwo that there's potential in the changes. the VS nerf was too much ( especially on top of th eminion limit... there was jsut no need for it the limti ascomplished it..), btu I'm stille xcited abotu the minion possabilitys.

nightrunner

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2005

San Francisco

W/Mo

28 Apr 2006 at 05:32 - 13

I'd be worried about a 55 MM - if they die, not only do you have rezzing problems like with a 55 monk, but you have the minions attacking you.

Ellena

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2005

28 Apr 2006 at 07:46 - 14

well after playigng with ti briefly it works, though elss well than I'd hoped and yeah.. only in zoens where the mobs are predictable. still, it migth be useful ocne in a while

skreet preacha

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

DDC

W/Mo

28 Apr 2006 at 12:08 - 15

yes, MMing hasnt been nerfed, but it does suck compared to how it used to be.

1. 10? 20? well, i'd sill MUCH rather raise an army of 30-40 minions with ease as i used to, than struggle to keep an army of 15-20 alive now. (read my post about the 10 thing, lol... i'll have to screenshot a pic for yall)

2. yep, thats true about BoTM, but it still sucks since the sac is tied to ur minion account, and is a big reason why u simply cant raise a larger army than 15-20, or u'll suicide with BoTM. the sole purpose of MMing has always been to raise as many strong minions as possible and keep them alive as long as possible. that core purpose has been severely "updated" in a bad way.

3. i guess, lol, but when do you have less than 3 minions? like .5 percent of ur time? i mean, u gonna raise much more than 3 with or without the instant recharge, so its kinda pointless to me. :-P

Evilsod

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2006

England

Lievs Death Squad [LDS]

28 Apr 2006 at 12:50 - 16

I still find the awesome RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up with the MM armour and VS change amusing. What was it? 1 of them gives you a bonus with 3 or more minions, 1 instantly recharges with less than 4. So basically the MM armour is possibly the single worst armour in the game now the ele armours been given a little boost.

I like the guild wars Lore things, Veratis been a powerful MM now has his name attached to the worst MM skills i have ever seen.

Emik

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

Belgium

[FaRM] Farm For The Win

N/

28 Apr 2006 at 13:04 - 17

I'm sorry to say to all peeps that think that MM'ing hasn't been nerfed.

Having and maintaining over 30 minions was what seperated the elite MM's from the noobs that tried to copy it.
With how they done it now everyone can become a MM and even sucky ones will have a go at it and get credit for a task they couldn't fullfill at first.
I've been in several missions, quests where i was the MM and had an army of +30.
Others tried it and barely had 5 at a time.
Again... the counter measures (coz apparently this is the reason why they nerfed it) are so damn easy. Kill the MM and they go berserk.

Still not convinced.
MM'ing imo still is nerfed.

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

28 Apr 2006 at 14:26 - 18

Well 10 minions is nothing compared to what the good MM's had, but 10's better then 5

VS is nerfed, but BotM affects all minions, so now you just need a monk that'll heal you alot.

Cirian

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

European Union

The Amazon Basin

28 Apr 2006 at 16:35 - 19

So, anyone else tried Aura of the Lich, Blood Renewal and DARK AURA with the spammable sac / minion heals? Ooh, I think I'm in love

The bone minions are energy management at only 15 energy to create 2 - with 11 Soul Reaping, you'll get 22 energy back when they both die - and I've been using Death Nova and Taste of Death more with them too. On top of being an aura bomber + minion master in one

More experimenting to do!

bobrath

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Texas

Scouts of Tyria

28 Apr 2006 at 17:04 - 20

no!!!! they nerfed MMs!!!! you just can't be succesful as a necro anymore with the death line.

capblueberry

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

Lexington, SC

Grenths Mercenaries[DEAD]

28 Apr 2006 at 17:42 - 21

with 16 DM u can still only control up to 10 minions anyways...so management is a bit easier

Fred Kiwi

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

[cola]

28 Apr 2006 at 17:58 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emik

Again... the counter measures (coz apparently this is the reason why they nerfed it) are so damn easy. Kill the MM and they go berserk. wait...so they nerfed it because it was too easy to counter?

k

Masochistic Maniac

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2005

California, USA

KAAW

Mo/W

28 Apr 2006 at 18:04 - 23

Deleted my beloved MM...Nerfage = Rage Deletage

On the otherhand it allowed me to make another char, so I'm happy in one respect, furious in another.

Former Ruling

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Oct 2005

Cedartown, Georgia

R/

28 Apr 2006 at 18:28 - 24

Sac really isnt a huge nerf...

All the smart MMs I know had already swithed to N/E and were renewing the Sac anyway.

With that in mind, you only have a few secs of it being down, even with its recharge.

The renewing of the old minions is a good counter to their limit, giving it a positive side.

Minus Sign

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

Mo/N

28 Apr 2006 at 19:04 - 25

Has anyone done this with more than 1 MM? Is this a group nerf, or single player. I can see a few advantages to duo MMs now, but only because they've stripped a soloers power.

VS is a huge nerf, and an overnerf imo. Even with glyphs you can't keep it up more than 2/3rd the time now. Thats bad and translating into an expensive skill for only 3 minions. They should have made it 5 minions if they were going to completely redesign the skill...which they have. 3 minions isn't enough in upper tier PvE to be worth holding onto during a dry spell; not with life sac too.

BotM; I'm not crying over. I think that change was a long time coming anyway.

10 minions...the GW I grow'd up in is done gone away...

cheetum

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

28 Apr 2006 at 19:45 - 26

im guessing using minions as grenades (death nova) and health packs (taste of death) is now going to be a lot more popular.

BanaXX

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

28 Apr 2006 at 19:48 - 27

the biggest nerf IMO is not verata's sacredfice. But is the maximum amount of minions that could be made.

Yukito Kunisaki

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2005

Chicago, IL

W/N

28 Apr 2006 at 19:54 - 28

1 Flesh Golem
4 Bone Fiends
5 Bone Horrors

Now you can use ritualist to make them hold MORE HP!!!???

Uh, yeah, nerf... right...

Your brains have been nerfed...

As a bomber Minion user, this is just fine for me

Reve2uk

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2005

W/N

28 Apr 2006 at 20:15 - 29

MM has been nerfed, the main reason was to use your whole build to have an army....... and 10 isn't an army, 10 minons will desappear very fast, if one foe turn on you with dark bond on a minon will be taking 75% of your dmg and agasit a strong oppents you would already have to sac hp so u will be low and u minons will be losing hp and without a large number of them to dmg the foe fast they will just get killed one buy one ---

think i will have to go minon bomber now ;'( hated that build but only thing left......

y have minon master army then nerf the amount u can have... i don't care about the sac stuff can work around that its just the number, without a good number of minons there is no point being a minon mastrer

Emik

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

Belgium

[FaRM] Farm For The Win

N/

28 Apr 2006 at 21:28 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred Kiwi

wait...so they nerfed it because it was too easy to counter?

k Seems to me you can't even read properly so best keep your ideas to yourself

byteme!

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

On Earth

W/P

29 Apr 2006 at 01:33 - 31

The "nerfing of MM's HAD TO HAPPEN NO MATTER WHAT. With the release of factions you have 2 new skills. One that raises a potential lvl 28 golem and another skill that raises minions that heal you whenever they deal dmg. If you had 20-30 minions fighting and healing you that would be what we call, "OVER POWERED". You would never die. Your army would be ridiculously strong. I'm surprised no one ever mentioned this point. 10 minion's is a very nice number in my opinion considering the new skills provided in Factions.

Serra Knightfang

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

Tenn

Me/Mo

29 Apr 2006 at 01:47 - 32

You guys ren't even thinking about Vamp horrors!!!
9 lvl 18 Vamp horrors and 1 lvl 26 Golem + spamming BotM (due to all the hp you gain from the vamp horrors) is GG.

I actually like the idea of the 55 build. You could put 9 into healing and run mending and HB just like the Imonk. BotM sac would be 13hp and you would gain 20hp per second from regen! You could even throw prot spirit on your bar for emergencies.

Minus Sign

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

Mo/N

30 Apr 2006 at 22:43 - 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serra Knightfang

You guys ren't even thinking about Vamp horrors!!!
9 lvl 18 Vamp horrors and 1 lvl 26 Golem + spamming BotM (due to all the hp you gain from the vamp horrors) is GG. I've considered it, and dropped the issue in the same breath. This all seems like an attempt by Anet, not to balance the game--as is the proported use of skill balance--but to promote a new line of minions.

If the reason for this Minion change is solely to increase the usefulness of the latest skill, then its backward thinking. This is blatant shredage of a build, and it wasn't even an exploitive build. They did more damage to the MMs than they ever did to the 55 bot monkeys.

If their intention was to control VH summons, then the VH minion should have recieved a nerf, not the every single MM build out there before it.

Personally, after reading your post, this makes me think even more that this is an attempt by Anet to get everyone to buy Factions now. (would that I could; I live in the boonies)

Over and over Anet said there would be advantages to owning both sets and upgrading your account as the game continues. They never mentioned nerfing builds and skills to do this. This update is out of the realm of "advantage" and flirting closely with "duress". I think thats what gotten most people upset about it.