Somebody had to make this thread. Dual smite making a comeback = good, but that skill is overpowered. Or am I a pussy?
Dicuss.
P.S. If you do not know what the skill does, take a look. =P
P.P.S. I forgot to make a poll. Wow I rock at the internets.
Should Air Of Enchantment be nerfed? [PvP]
xRustyx
Rebelde
You need to learn to kite. And stop playing tombs
xRustyx
No one likes you. OHSHI
Tap Tap
Dual Smite was nerfed before, so I would assume that ArenaNet viewed it as overpowered.
Right now, it's worse then it was originally, and yes Air of Enchantment has way too low of recast to be considered balanced.
I support xRustyx :thumbsup:
Right now, it's worse then it was originally, and yes Air of Enchantment has way too low of recast to be considered balanced.
I support xRustyx :thumbsup:
KodiakArrest
I'm down with this petition.
Shortyafter
I've run this in Tombs myself and played against [Bus] who also ran it. I have concluded that the 3 monk backline easily owns this build provided the team is spread out. In order for it to work the warriors need to coordinate adren spikes, and possibly the timing of the Balth's Auras. The pressure damage is just crap, and since it requries coordation it's not like it's free and easy wins. In GvG it's a different story. The pressure overwhelms the standard 2 boon prot backline. So, is the solution to nerf the skill, or to adjust your own build? If it becomes a FotM (as it seems to be), just run a 3 monk backline, gg. Don't cry to A-Net just because you can't adapt.
Rebelde
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Originally Posted by Shortyafter
Don't cry to A-Net just because you can't adapt.
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If he is smiting off a warrior, snare the warrior and diversion his RoF or Draw (Or whatever smiters use these days). Or just Sig of Humility his Air of enchant, or just blackout the smiter (Every team has at least 1 blackout. Blackout RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing owns.) Or, just split, and if they have 2 smiters and split on you aswell, just kite your ass off while blacking out the monk and Diversioning the ele.
I can see the dual smiters killing builds who don't have skills like that, but last time I seen a top tier guild play without those skills was vOR, and Bloodspike is RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing nub.
The Fox
Nerf nerf! Yeah! 
wow wasn't that fun! j/k Why don't you give pvp some time to make counters before whinning about any of the new skills. After all, it's only been a few days.
wow wasn't that fun! j/k Why don't you give pvp some time to make counters before whinning about any of the new skills. After all, it's only been a few days.
xRustyx
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Originally Posted by The Fox
whinning
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Tap Tap
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Originally Posted by Shortyafter
I've run this in Tombs myself and played against [Bus] who also ran it. I have concluded that the 3 monk backline easily owns this build provided the team is spread out. In order for it to work the warriors need to coordinate adren spikes, and possibly the timing of the Balth's Auras. The pressure damage is just crap, and since it requries coordation it's not like it's free and easy wins. In GvG it's a different story. The pressure overwhelms the standard 2 boon prot backline. So, is the solution to nerf the skill, or to adjust your own build? If it becomes a FotM (as it seems to be), just run a 3 monk backline, gg. Don't cry to A-Net just because you can't adapt.
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Sounds like overpowered to me.
Shortyafter
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Originally Posted by Tap Tap
"Adapting" a build (more then one player) over the fact that one skill inherently empowers a half dozen others?
Sounds like overpowered to me. |
Tap Tap
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Originally Posted by Rebelde
QFT.
If he is smiting off a warrior, snare the warrior and diversion his RoF or Draw (Or whatever smiters use these days). Or just Sig of Humility his Air of enchant, or just blackout the smiter (Every team has at least 1 blackout. Blackout RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing owns.) |
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Originally Posted by rebelde
Or, just split, and if they have 2 smiters and split on you aswell, just kite your ass off while blacking out the monk and Diversioning the ele.
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Originally Posted by rebelde
I can see the dual smiters killing builds who don't have skills like that, but last time I seen a top tier guild play without those skills was vOR, and Bloodspike is RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing nub.
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Nice use of language also. I see the engine is not only gored, but red.
Tap Tap
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Originally Posted by Shortyafter
Okay, I guess adapting to the meta is pretty silly.
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Adapting to a current trend of the metagame is not silly.
Adapting to a current trend of the metagame because of one skill is. We'll still adapt, but I can't remember one skill ever having so much power over a single build. Of course I could be wrong, so if you know of one, point it out.
Take Air of Enchantment out of that build. Does it still work? Yes, but probably no where near as well as it is now. I'm sure the initial smite onslaught would be painful, but that monk's energy supply could run out real fast, leaving them dead in the water (the smiting monk). You take away Air of Enchantment, that smiter gets hung out to try, considering that its his energy management, and also an elite skill. He can continue to smite as long as he has energy, however from what I observed last night, it would have to be with natural regen.
If everyone decided Diversion was the coolest skill in the world to run, of course we'd adapt to it. However, Diversion doesn't make other skills powerful by itself. If you were to shut down that one skill, that would leave seven other skills on that players bar to use. He's still in the game with seven skills. No Air of Enchantment leads to a much different build I'd imagine to be able to smite.
Lastly,
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Originally Posted by tap tap
Dual Smite was nerfed before, so I would assume that ArenaNet viewed it as overpowered.
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Shortyafter
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Originally Posted by Tap Tap
You miss the point.
Adapting to a current trend of the metagame is not silly. Adapting to a current trend of the metagame because of one skill is. We'll still adapt, but I can't remember one skill ever having so much power over a single build. Of course I could be wrong, so if you know of one, point it out. Take Air of Enchantment out of that build. Does it still work? Yes, but probably no where near as well as it is now. I'm sure the initial smite onslaught would be painful, but that monk's energy supply could run out real fast, leaving them dead in the water (the smiting monk). You take away Air of Enchantment, that smiter gets hung out to try, considering that its his energy management, and also an elite skill. He can continue to smite as long as he has energy, however from what I observed last night, it would have to be with natural regen. If everyone decided Diversion was the coolest skill in the world to run, of course we'd adapt to it. However, Diversion doesn't make other skills powerful by itself. If you were to shut down that one skill, that would leave seven other skills on that players bar to use. He's still in the game with seven skills. No Air of Enchantment leads to a much different build I'd imagine to be able to smite. |
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| Creative people have made it come back with a nasty vengence. That's pretty ingenious to be honest, but I consider this version of smite more powerful then the original. If the original was overpowered (and nerfed), why would the newer, more powerful version not be? |
Pharalon
The problem with Air of Enchant is that it allows you to do substantial damage, keep your smite target clean and protted, ad provides excellent energy management for boon prots all in one package. The raw power of the skill is staggering. I really wouldn't be worried about how it performs in tombs, because nobody really cares about that. The build shines most strongly in a 4 man split in GvG. You've got 1 Boon Prot firing off big 2e heals, meaning they're not tied down with secondary energy management anymore and can operate at almost top efficiency at 0 energy. You've got a smiter, keeping a warrior/assassin clean of conditions and almost immune to damage, taking a lot of pressure off the boon prot, while doing more pressure damage than 1 monk can deal with. It's going to wipe any existing 4 man split with relative ease, and even if it can't defeat them, with 2 monks with 2 copies of Air of Enchantment (if that's even necessary), it's incredibly hard to punch through that defense.
The skill really needs a longer recharge, probably in the order of 15-20 seconds. Once you can no longer maintain it on multiple people, and once enchantment removal becomes a meaningful counter, the skill will be somewhere close to being balanced.
The skill really needs a longer recharge, probably in the order of 15-20 seconds. Once you can no longer maintain it on multiple people, and once enchantment removal becomes a meaningful counter, the skill will be somewhere close to being balanced.
xRustyx
Excellent points made people. Need I say more?
Synthetic
I think it is a bit early to be calling for nerfs. I think that this just needs some time to figure out the best counter and then it will fall to the wayside. The skill was just introduced and people have come up with a great use for it. If this is too difficult to counter ANet will beat it with the nerf stick and most likely create another useless elite. I think this just requires some time.
Phoenix Arrows
Let me get this straight. Just because people beat you with Air of Enchantment, you need a nerf for it? And did anyone say that you couldn't use it?
If Air of Enchantment is such a pain for your teams, try actually USING it so that both teams are overpowered to the same level. Just because the other team chose to use the "overpowered" skill doesn't mean you can't use it.
I say keep it the way it is. There was no rule saying other people couldn't use it. It's just that they don't. I don't think it is fair that just because some people have found a use for a build around it that it should be nerfed.
/not-signed
If Air of Enchantment is such a pain for your teams, try actually USING it so that both teams are overpowered to the same level. Just because the other team chose to use the "overpowered" skill doesn't mean you can't use it.
I say keep it the way it is. There was no rule saying other people couldn't use it. It's just that they don't. I don't think it is fair that just because some people have found a use for a build around it that it should be nerfed.
/not-signed
BahamutKaiser
This just brings me back to Monks being overpowered in general, it is sad that a monk can bring more effective and powerful DoT spells to a battle then an Elementist, expecially since the monk is primarily heal and protect, with only a fraction of attacking skills, yet elementist has 4 attributes full of attack skills which don't bring nearly as much power to the table.
25 energy allows a monk to cast DoT armor ignoring damage on a mobile target for 10 seconds, yet an elementist spend just as much for Searing Heat or Maelstorm which is easily evaded since it is immobile, and easily misplaced because of long cast times, allowing enemies to evade the damage and effects easily, aside from the fact that they do less damage. Maelstorm cost exhaustion as well, so bringing up the added interrupt doesn't change the status quo.
I realize that all classes should have some offesnive power, but it is profoundly broken when the support/defensive class has more effective offensive techniques then the offensive class, which also has very limited defensive/support capabilities. If monk can DoT more effectively then Elementist, then Elementist should either be improved in damage, or given some Healing over Time Location spells, like a large Healing Spring, or medium Location regen.
It is a slap in the face when people argue about whether or not the defensive classes attack skills are overpowered, Elementist should be the one facing damage scrutiny
25 energy allows a monk to cast DoT armor ignoring damage on a mobile target for 10 seconds, yet an elementist spend just as much for Searing Heat or Maelstorm which is easily evaded since it is immobile, and easily misplaced because of long cast times, allowing enemies to evade the damage and effects easily, aside from the fact that they do less damage. Maelstorm cost exhaustion as well, so bringing up the added interrupt doesn't change the status quo.
I realize that all classes should have some offesnive power, but it is profoundly broken when the support/defensive class has more effective offensive techniques then the offensive class, which also has very limited defensive/support capabilities. If monk can DoT more effectively then Elementist, then Elementist should either be improved in damage, or given some Healing over Time Location spells, like a large Healing Spring, or medium Location regen.
It is a slap in the face when people argue about whether or not the defensive classes attack skills are overpowered, Elementist should be the one facing damage scrutiny
Valerria
It's powerful but hardly over-powered, and definitely NOT over-used yet. Nothing gets nerfed if it's not commonly encountered.
xRustyx
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Originally Posted by Phoenix Arrows
Let me get this straight. Just because people beat you with Air of Enchantment, you need a nerf for it? And did anyone say that you couldn't use it?
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Originally Posted by Phoenix Arrows
If Air of Enchantment is such a pain for your teams, try actually USING it so that both teams are overpowered to the same level. Just because the other team chose to use the "overpowered" skill doesn't mean you can't use it.
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Originally Posted by Phoenix Arrows
/not-signed
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Sekkira
Okay I know I'm missing something. Air of Enchantment reduces an enchantment by 5 energy, Bally's Aura costs 25 energy, now 20 energy, but it cost 5 energy to bring it down to 20 energy.
Zatara
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Originally Posted by Sekkira
Okay I know I'm missing something. Air of Enchantment reduces an enchantment by 5 energy, Bally's Aura costs 25 energy, now 20 energy, but it cost 5 energy to bring it down to 20 energy.
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Sekkira
Ah now I get it, you confused me entirely Zatara before. I didn't realise it was the actual smite that made it overpowered but the zero energy cost you could use with boon prot skills as well as smiting skills while this is up.
Yes it's overpowered. It doesn't mean it's unbeatable, but just because you can beat something doesn't mean it's balanced.
Yes it's overpowered. It doesn't mean it's unbeatable, but just because you can beat something doesn't mean it's balanced.
Linkie
It saddens me to see that people have not changed much since the spirit spam days. "If you can't beat it, use it yourself" is hardly an argument against a skill being overpowered. Besides, it only encourages to what the real problem with these kind of skills, and that is that it creates an extremely static gameplay, almost comperable to PvE. Now, admittedably tombs was very static already, but this skill will definately not improve the environment.
And sure, there are counters for it out there, like there are counters for most things. The problem is creating counters that doesn't completely gimp your build against everything else, and that are efficient enough against these builds to make you chose this over simply running this build yourself (again, creating a very static environment).
And sure, there are counters for it out there, like there are counters for most things. The problem is creating counters that doesn't completely gimp your build against everything else, and that are efficient enough against these builds to make you chose this over simply running this build yourself (again, creating a very static environment).
scars of insanity
have yall seen the new mesmer skills? some look like it really screw this build.
for example
Arcane Languor- 10 energy 2 second cast 15 second recharge
For 1...4 seconds, all spells cast by target cause exausion.
i have seen this build in observer mode and they are Spamming skills with Air of enchantment. Place this baby on a monk spammin and he will either stop spamming or keep spamming. if he keeps spamming thats gonna be at least 4 spells cast by the monk. i believe exausion in 10 energy so he will be sitting on 40 energy exaustion. 15 seconds later pick a new target to screw with.
then with this mabye team up with a Ranger with this spirit.
Equinox
Spells cast within its range that causes exhaustion cause double the exhaustion instead. This spirit dies after 30-126 seconds.
this is just a thought tho i have no idea if these would actualy work against it.
personaly i think nerfing a skill because of one build is rediculous. but it does seem a little overpowered mabye lengthen recharge to 15 or 20.
for example
Arcane Languor- 10 energy 2 second cast 15 second recharge
For 1...4 seconds, all spells cast by target cause exausion.
i have seen this build in observer mode and they are Spamming skills with Air of enchantment. Place this baby on a monk spammin and he will either stop spamming or keep spamming. if he keeps spamming thats gonna be at least 4 spells cast by the monk. i believe exausion in 10 energy so he will be sitting on 40 energy exaustion. 15 seconds later pick a new target to screw with.
then with this mabye team up with a Ranger with this spirit.
Equinox
Spells cast within its range that causes exhaustion cause double the exhaustion instead. This spirit dies after 30-126 seconds.
this is just a thought tho i have no idea if these would actualy work against it.
personaly i think nerfing a skill because of one build is rediculous. but it does seem a little overpowered mabye lengthen recharge to 15 or 20.
Ascension
Smiting is not overpowered at it's current state. In fact, the very original counter - IWAY - can still easily defeat it. Saying this, some of the counters to IWAY are stomped by the newer smiting builds. It still, however, can be edged out by a good teams (I.e. KITE!).
The build itself is just very well designed. It takes advantage of your hesitation in a beautiful way.
The build itself is just very well designed. It takes advantage of your hesitation in a beautiful way.
BahamutKaiser
Elementist should own IWAY, but somehow it doesn't, so people are turning to the Healing job, Monk.......
Does someone have a big red flag that says "BROKEN" for me to wave?, The "healing" job is being used for AoE Group attack counters, the job can heal and protect teammates, it shouldn't be able to mount an offense AT THE SAME TIME!, Why the Hell can't people see this?
Does someone have a big red flag that says "BROKEN" for me to wave?, The "healing" job is being used for AoE Group attack counters, the job can heal and protect teammates, it shouldn't be able to mount an offense AT THE SAME TIME!, Why the Hell can't people see this?
Sekkira
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Originally Posted by scars of insanity
have yall seen the new mesmer skills? some look like it really screw this build.
for example Arcane Languor- 10 energy 2 second cast 15 second recharge For 1...4 seconds, all spells cast by target cause exausion. i have seen this build in observer mode and they are Spamming skills with Air of enchantment. Place this baby on a monk spammin and he will either stop spamming or keep spamming. if he keeps spamming thats gonna be at least 4 spells cast by the monk. i believe exausion in 10 energy so he will be sitting on 40 energy exaustion. 15 seconds later pick a new target to screw with. then with this mabye team up with a Ranger with this spirit. Equinox Spells cast within its range that causes exhaustion cause double the exhaustion instead. This spirit dies after 30-126 seconds. this is just a thought tho i have no idea if these would actualy work against it. personaly i think nerfing a skill because of one build is rediculous. but it does seem a little overpowered mabye lengthen recharge to 15 or 20. |
Xasew
Dang, I made a build using Air of Enchantment with Smiting a week or so ago, but I didn't think it would be bringing Dual Smite back...
Dual Smite was the only FotM I liked/played, so I'm actually happy if it really is back(I'm not able to play atm). But overpowered... I don't think that. Sure Balth's Aura is a bit more powerful, but Diversion/Enchantment removal is still in the game. Actually there's so much new enchantment removal, that I don't see Smite becoming a huge problem.
*edit*
But if it does, then it should be nerfed accordingly.
Dual Smite was the only FotM I liked/played, so I'm actually happy if it really is back(I'm not able to play atm). But overpowered... I don't think that. Sure Balth's Aura is a bit more powerful, but Diversion/Enchantment removal is still in the game. Actually there's so much new enchantment removal, that I don't see Smite becoming a huge problem.
*edit*
But if it does, then it should be nerfed accordingly.
JR
Whoever thinks Air of Enchantment even COMPARES to what Ether Renewal was like back in the Dual Smite days is either on crack, or has a terrible memory.
However, I do agree that Air of Enchantment does probably need tweaking. I'll experiment later.
However, I do agree that Air of Enchantment does probably need tweaking. I'll experiment later.
wren e
I am sure that there are other skills more powerful than air of enchantment with the new faction skills, but people are still learning them. I do not think that this new incarnation of duel smite needs to be nerfed considering that you can get the same effect from using divine spirit and glyph of renewal. Also, you need to remember that balthazars aura does not do as much damage as it once did and recharges slower, and zealous fire does less damage as well. On top of that, I can remember when people where smiting of themsleves using shouts, which you can not do anymore. All that air of enchantment has done is bring back a FOTM that had been nerfed and made it a viable, but not overpowered, choice. Plus, it is my opinion that the more choices and different builds that you are likely to see, add to the fun of PvP, versus playing against the same build time after time. Before calling for nerfs, give the state of the metagame time to try out new combinations and incorperate all the new skills and doubles that we have a chance to try in new ways.
UltimaXtreme
its not overpowered, strip zealots fire -.- not that hard
Thom
I see this two ways: First, I saw the Air of Enchantment and immediately fell in love. I capped it as soon as I could and use it for my boon/proter now. If they find a way to keep this skill in tact I would be very happy. The amount of my happiness could indicate the need for it to be nerfed.
There are several enchantment removal options, but if you are playing the guild correctly zealots should always be double/triple covered. Remove is not a reasonable option outside of profane. Energy drain is not feasible, because if played correctly the booners are sitting at about zero energy. Proper kiting goes a long way, but an oppent with half a brain with have this covered. If things get really bad just bring mantra of fire.
If you are interested in fame farming, this is your best option since IWAY got nerfed. For the doubters out there, for a single target you can cast RoF, Guardian, AoEnch and Veil INDEFINITELY for 2 energy a cast. Prot spirit costs 5, switching targets costs 5. This is the equivalent to something like 20+ free energy every 10 seconds if you don't need to switch targets. AoEnch triggers boon so at the very minimum you heal a target every 5 seconds for 2 energy while your bar recharges. The opponent has two reasonable strategies: consistantly switch targets or attack the boon/protter. This makes holding ridiculous: your standard boon/prot can single handedly keep a hero alive almost indefinitely without a fancy holding build. To put it in the immortal words of the Zashian's: "gg".
Sure the build can be beaten and countered, but this beautiful skill has take what was already on on the most insanely successful builds in game and made it substancially better. Smite was nerfed enough last time around that players may be able to substancially adopt, but Air of Enchantment is to date my favorite elite to come out of factions across all classes.
There are several enchantment removal options, but if you are playing the guild correctly zealots should always be double/triple covered. Remove is not a reasonable option outside of profane. Energy drain is not feasible, because if played correctly the booners are sitting at about zero energy. Proper kiting goes a long way, but an oppent with half a brain with have this covered. If things get really bad just bring mantra of fire.
If you are interested in fame farming, this is your best option since IWAY got nerfed. For the doubters out there, for a single target you can cast RoF, Guardian, AoEnch and Veil INDEFINITELY for 2 energy a cast. Prot spirit costs 5, switching targets costs 5. This is the equivalent to something like 20+ free energy every 10 seconds if you don't need to switch targets. AoEnch triggers boon so at the very minimum you heal a target every 5 seconds for 2 energy while your bar recharges. The opponent has two reasonable strategies: consistantly switch targets or attack the boon/protter. This makes holding ridiculous: your standard boon/prot can single handedly keep a hero alive almost indefinitely without a fancy holding build. To put it in the immortal words of the Zashian's: "gg".
Sure the build can be beaten and countered, but this beautiful skill has take what was already on on the most insanely successful builds in game and made it substancially better. Smite was nerfed enough last time around that players may be able to substancially adopt, but Air of Enchantment is to date my favorite elite to come out of factions across all classes.
Pete1975
/notsigned
Take out the smiters and the build has very little damage, there are many ways to counter this. There is quite alot of prot in this build so I imagine it makes using iway builds a little difficult, shame........
Ranger spike should be nerfed, iway should be nerfed, that rit spke thingy should be nerfed, blood spike should be nerfed, the build the team was running last night should be nerfed as they beat me, so basically when we enter a match in HA we have to stand there seeing who has the most "wand power" I think you can see where I am going here
Take out the smiters and the build has very little damage, there are many ways to counter this. There is quite alot of prot in this build so I imagine it makes using iway builds a little difficult, shame........
Ranger spike should be nerfed, iway should be nerfed, that rit spke thingy should be nerfed, blood spike should be nerfed, the build the team was running last night should be nerfed as they beat me, so basically when we enter a match in HA we have to stand there seeing who has the most "wand power" I think you can see where I am going here
MCS
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| its not overpowered, strip zealots fire -.- not that hard |
pah01
Well when you can wipe out every second team you meet in less than two minutes with one smiter two thumpers and a shock warrior something has got to be overpowered or at least very strong of the three I just mentioned.
Its a lot of fun tho
Sam
Its a lot of fun tho
Sam
jummeth
And the next thread is shouting at how OoA is over powered.
Please just give some people some time to discover counters before shout NERF!
You got skills like shadow shroud which will totally shutdown the standard boon prot with air of enchant or not.
That exhaustion skill, backfire are all potent since the monk is usually spamming this in quick sucession.
Please just give some people some time to discover counters before shout NERF!
You got skills like shadow shroud which will totally shutdown the standard boon prot with air of enchant or not.
That exhaustion skill, backfire are all potent since the monk is usually spamming this in quick sucession.
Kyune
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Originally Posted by UltimaXtreme
its not overpowered, strip zealots fire -.- not that hard
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I admit they're not particularly pretty but potentially one of them could do the job but as long as the meta-game remains set in pre-factions mentality as far as what should and shouldn't be a good skill to bring people are just trying to get by with as little effort as possible.
Kinda reminds me of all the fuss that went on over old-style tombs heal balls, haha.
Karmaniac
Even though the OP seems to have been banned (there's still justice in the world after all) I'd still like to express my point.
OMG!!!!111 I'm gonna stock up on wands before they get nerfed and make $$$
Anyways, I'd dare say that air of enchantment is indeed bit imba. It's the ultimate energy management for prot monks and if OoB was overpowered (it wasn't) then I'm at loss. This is not overpowered? Altho I admit I have no firsthand experience on how much energy you save using it but if it exceeds OoB or MoR by far a rebalance is definitely in order. Can't call for nerf on a gut feeling alone.
Finally what was said about eles: stop spouting nonsense. You have superior energy reserves and skills that can be spammed to the extent it's nauseating. The hell you need more buffs!
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Originally Posted by Pete1975
Ranger spike should be nerfed, iway should be nerfed, that rit spke thingy should be nerfed, blood spike should be nerfed, the build the team was running last night should be nerfed as they beat me, so basically when we enter a match in HA we have to stand there seeing who has the most "wand power" I think you can see where I am going here
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Anyways, I'd dare say that air of enchantment is indeed bit imba. It's the ultimate energy management for prot monks and if OoB was overpowered (it wasn't) then I'm at loss. This is not overpowered? Altho I admit I have no firsthand experience on how much energy you save using it but if it exceeds OoB or MoR by far a rebalance is definitely in order. Can't call for nerf on a gut feeling alone.
Finally what was said about eles: stop spouting nonsense. You have superior energy reserves and skills that can be spammed to the extent it's nauseating. The hell you need more buffs!