Most people have noticed rangers using necros, warriors and assassins as their secondary profession because the expertise reduces the energy costs significantly. The issue I have is with the necro 'touchers' who can spam Vampiric Touch, Vile Touch etc indefinitely. The terminology used for Expertise is: "For each rank in Expertise, the Energy cost of Traps, Preparations and Attack skills decreases by 4%". Vile Touch and Vampiric Touch are not attack skills - simply skills. It’s the same story with the R/Me blackouts. In a world where I am scrutinised for every error I make I’d like to do some scrutinising myself: can I point out that this seems to be an error too? Is anybody else surprised why this hasn't been nerfed like most other over-powered builds? The so called ‘thumper’ rangers are massively over-powered yet in the latest skill ‘balance’ update hammer attacks were improved:
• Mighty Blow: increased damage to 6..35.
• Staggering Blow: increased Weakness duration to 5..20 seconds.
Am I the only one who feels this issue should be balanced?
Expertise Issue.
makosi
JR
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Originally Posted by makosi
The so called ‘thumper’ rangers are massively over-powered
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Sweetest
oh wow your kidding right?
if you think bunny thumpers and touch rangers are over powered... maybe guild wars isnt the game for you.
if you think bunny thumpers and touch rangers are over powered... maybe guild wars isnt the game for you.
lyra_song
Blindness anyone? My good friend plays a thumper and when we run TA, she gets blinded by a flash turret and is pretty much blind most of the battle.
The thumper is threatening if left unchecked, but they arent overpowered.
The thumper is threatening if left unchecked, but they arent overpowered.
makosi
You can blind them for a matter of seconds and thats it and monks can move blindness very easily. After that they can go on their KD rampage with tiger's fury and you're gone in seconds - am i missing something? If you're going to say something like:
"oh wow your kidding right?
if you think bunny thumpers and touch rangers are over powered... maybe guild wars isnt the game for you."
Justify or don't say anything at all. Discussions go nowhere with comments like that.
"oh wow your kidding right?
if you think bunny thumpers and touch rangers are over powered... maybe guild wars isnt the game for you."
Justify or don't say anything at all. Discussions go nowhere with comments like that.
Dr Strangelove
Neither thumpers nor touch rangers are overpowerered, I have played both. Both have relatively few defensive skills, a good blindbot or effective kiting with ranged attacks will drop a thumper pretty quickly. Touch rangers have no real way to counter healing, any monk worth his sailt can easily heal over the damage caused. Despite what you might think, vamp touch isn't an effective self heal. Overall, pretty easy to kill, but still an effective build.
Mustache Mayhem
touch ranger been around long time.. it says right in your post attack skills (that includes necro touch skills)- fun builds to play with that can be shut down with just a regular ranger.. it's called interupts (concussion shot is my favorite)- don't see many around because you need high expertise but it shuts down those long necro cast times easy- a good ranger/mesmer is the counter > any necro (includes secondary necro).. they won't get a cast off with those 2-3 sec cast times- healing monk is in trouble too around a interrupt ranger
Terra Xin
Yeah I agree. It needs to be edited so it either says "skills" or be left with "attack skills" (The meaning of this is debateable) and cut off any "skills" that currently benefit from expertise.
I beat touch rangers by using pressure attacks to force them to use all of their energy. Then they just run around like headless chickens. Of course, a popular strategy is to just run, they have to touch you first.
It always seems like rangers are overpowered. Maybe it's because everyone always wants to kill the Mesmer.... *cries*
I beat touch rangers by using pressure attacks to force them to use all of their energy. Then they just run around like headless chickens. Of course, a popular strategy is to just run, they have to touch you first.
It always seems like rangers are overpowered. Maybe it's because everyone always wants to kill the Mesmer.... *cries*
Str0b0
I think it's fine the way it is. Expertise gives rangers, who have a relatively small energy pool, the ability to use a secondary profession that relies heavily on energy without being utterly worthless. I do have to say that thumpers and touchers are only problems for people who don't get the concept of conditions and interrupts though. So if someone were a complete idiot that had no idea how to time an interrupt or how to put a condition on someone and maintain it then yes I guess they would be overpowered but then again any character type is vastly overpowered when confronting an idiot. I'm not directing those comments at anyone specifically but the point holds true. Only the stupid need fear the touch and thumper ranger types.Expertise is really the only viable energy management method available for a ranger and I th ink it is fine and even justified in being applicable to all skills. I think it is just a case of a misworded description, much like epidemic which spreads, not transfers, conditions to adjacent foes. Does that make it overpowered? No it just means someone made a mistake in the description, likely a discrepency from a beta to the final product that never got fixed. ANet has long been aware of the Expertise situation. They pretty much have to be because someone always whines about it no matter which forum you go to so it is inconcievable that at some point someone somewhere that works for ANet hasn't seen this exact same topic somewhere. the fact remains that Expertise still works the way it does which leads me to the supposition that it works as it was intended and that it's just a mistype and not a bug.
Hunter Sharparrow
Although it does affect skills outside the description, I think it's fine. The ranger only gets three energy regen and doesn't get as much energy as other magic users unless you get druid's armor. However the skills (although most are 5 and 10 energy) can range up to 15 and higher so they need the energy reduction.
jules
Trappers are a good counter against touch rangers, so is kiting and usage of snares. Thumpers can be negated as easily as any other melee class with blind and hexes.
Huntmaster
@OP.
Please, answer this; if thumpers and touch rangers are so horribly overpowered, why do i only see them once a month?
I honestly think the last time i came across a touch ranger was in 12v12 in the FPE, and then it was "pindown, poison, beat to death."
As for thumpers, theres a reason there aren't too many builds that utilize them. Everyonce in a while you'll see one in a GvG, thats cool. I've played a few thumper teams in HoH, and have never lost.
Expertise really helps where it counts most. Ranger skills.
Please, answer this; if thumpers and touch rangers are so horribly overpowered, why do i only see them once a month?
I honestly think the last time i came across a touch ranger was in 12v12 in the FPE, and then it was "pindown, poison, beat to death."
As for thumpers, theres a reason there aren't too many builds that utilize them. Everyonce in a while you'll see one in a GvG, thats cool. I've played a few thumper teams in HoH, and have never lost.
Expertise really helps where it counts most. Ranger skills.
Valerria
Here's a PROPER touch ranger build:
Vamp Touch, Vamp Bite, Throw Dirt, Whirling Defense, OoB, Plague Touch, Life Siphon
The biggest weakness of this build is e-denial mesmer, and even then if you're 1on1 such a target you'll likely come out on top with the aid of OoB. With 2 defensive expertise skills you simply shrug off melee and rangers. Life Siphon the runners and go to another target, or chase after him until he has to stop to heal. When there're monks hopefully you won't be the ONLY one doing damage. Very few builds can SOLO a well-build defensive monk AND survive against all other builds so well.
Vamp Touch, Vamp Bite, Throw Dirt, Whirling Defense, OoB, Plague Touch, Life Siphon
The biggest weakness of this build is e-denial mesmer, and even then if you're 1on1 such a target you'll likely come out on top with the aid of OoB. With 2 defensive expertise skills you simply shrug off melee and rangers. Life Siphon the runners and go to another target, or chase after him until he has to stop to heal. When there're monks hopefully you won't be the ONLY one doing damage. Very few builds can SOLO a well-build defensive monk AND survive against all other builds so well.
Evilsod
Touch rangers can be incredibly annoying though. Had an E-surger on me in PvP and couldn't do a damn thing except occasionally cast RoF to counter the odd Touch. Would've still done more damage if they were a warrior though...
unienaule
Part of the reason rangers may seem to be overpowered is that in a normal balanced team, Monks, Mesmers, and maybe Necros are higher priority targets, so the ranger doesn't get messed up as much.
makosi
Just to clarify, Rangers themselves aren't overpowered - its the builds that would be previously unforseen that seem to be overpowered. Did anybody expect rangers with hammers when the game started? 
Eviance
I agree that thumpers hurt - being a ranger and getting taken down by one of the first thumpers months ago (4mths ago I think) it was just unnerving! But as people said there are ways to get rid of them or hender them, so over powered I would say not really. I tried a thumper build but it just wasnt my thing - my Ranger hates any weapon but bows =P
Count to Potato
A good balances game where no one wins would be right for u
anyway the thumpers are easy to beat, blackout, blind, blurred vision?
anyway the thumpers are easy to beat, blackout, blind, blurred vision?
Ensign
Why is a ranger with a hammer any more dangerous than a warrior with a hammer?
Peace,
-CxE
Peace,
-CxE
Shadowspawn X
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Originally Posted by makosi
Am I the only one who feels this issue should be balanced? |
MelechRic
Hehe... I used to play a touch ranger in RA just for kicks. It was fun, but there are so many ways to die that it's really not a viable build.
First of all you have to be able to get to your target in order to touch them. A kiting monk or other caster will really make your work for your damage. Also, since not moving = not damaging (aside from things like Vamp Gazing) if you're slowed/crippled then you're subject to being hexed/damaged to death without being able to touch back some health to yourself.
As for bunny thumpers... people already answered it... blind em. Slow/cripple if possible, but that works on warriors too.
First of all you have to be able to get to your target in order to touch them. A kiting monk or other caster will really make your work for your damage. Also, since not moving = not damaging (aside from things like Vamp Gazing) if you're slowed/crippled then you're subject to being hexed/damaged to death without being able to touch back some health to yourself.
As for bunny thumpers... people already answered it... blind em. Slow/cripple if possible, but that works on warriors too.
Str0b0
wait till you see the build I'm cooking up. I guarantee you it gets a lot of ranger hate dumpedon it, but to me that means I did something right. If people whine about it then it's working.
gabrial heart
I've always thought rangers were overpowered. Just having non-cancelable ranged attacks alone makes ranger a tough lot and i have always thought that they shouldn't get expertise bonuses on any of the secondary profession skills/spells or whatnot.
For a really long time, monks have had very little, if any, e management worth a crap, so how about making divine favor lower e costs by 4% eh? It's funny that they can't even take advantage of most of the ritualist e managment skills, channeling is a joke, hex eater is ridiculously long recharge time and also a touch signet (gah)... Oob cost too much to get very little in return... We'll i'm still going only with 5 e cost spells till i cap the 2 best e managment elites for the monk ever. If it wasn't for Woh, breeze (of course rangers can get troll which can be maxed without a sup! @ a 5e cost), or infuse, monks would be the most useless proffession in the game at thsi point.
When the most successful pvp teams MUST have half a team of monks, something is REALLY unbalanced :P
For a really long time, monks have had very little, if any, e management worth a crap, so how about making divine favor lower e costs by 4% eh? It's funny that they can't even take advantage of most of the ritualist e managment skills, channeling is a joke, hex eater is ridiculously long recharge time and also a touch signet (gah)... Oob cost too much to get very little in return... We'll i'm still going only with 5 e cost spells till i cap the 2 best e managment elites for the monk ever. If it wasn't for Woh, breeze (of course rangers can get troll which can be maxed without a sup! @ a 5e cost), or infuse, monks would be the most useless proffession in the game at thsi point.
When the most successful pvp teams MUST have half a team of monks, something is REALLY unbalanced :P
makosi
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Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X
It already is balanced. Rangers have been the most hated and nerfed class in this game since day one sometimes for good reason (spirit spam) and sometimes not. Expertise is not broken nor overpowered. It is working as designed and has been for over a year. Dont try to start a ranger hate thread, just because you had a bad day in RA.
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Former Ruling
Maybe not ingame, but in the factions manual, Expertise "Shrinks the cost of non-spell skills". It doesnt make refernece to any TYPE of skill, just to say that they cant be spells. Which is how it acts in the game.
Touch Rangers are neat for dmg, but they cant take a hit well...under fire they'll drop pretty fast.
Touch Rangers are neat for dmg, but they cant take a hit well...under fire they'll drop pretty fast.
jules
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Originally Posted by gabrial heart
For a really long time, monks have had very little, if any, e management worth a crap, so how about making divine favor lower e costs by 4% eh? It's funny that they can't even take advantage of most of the ritualist e managment skills, channeling is a joke, hex eater is ridiculously long recharge time and also a touch signet (gah)... Oob cost too much to get very little in return... We'll i'm still going only with 5 e cost spells till i cap the 2 best e managment elites for the monk ever. If it wasn't for Woh, breeze (of course rangers can get troll which can be maxed without a sup! @ a 5e cost), or infuse, monks would be the most useless proffession in the game at thsi point.
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1. Channeling is godly in HA. Try it.
2. OoB has the highest raw energy output for any of the skills the last time I checked. It only costs 5 energy.
3. Try Mantra of Recall and Energy Drain.
4. Monks have Healing Seed, Divine Boon, Contemplation of Purity, Spellbreaker.. need I name any more? Even without WoH (and breeze?!) monks would still be very useful.
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Originally Posted by Ensign
Why is a ranger with a hammer any more dangerous than a warrior with a hammer?
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Haggard
Tried Tiger Sword today in RA and met several touch rangers, didn't feel like any of them were too much of a challenge.
K.Ichigo
I still believe that Touch Rangers need Escape and Dodge.
makosi
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Originally Posted by K.Ichigo
I still believe that Touch Rangers need Escape and Dodge.
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