possible new fee structure? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Uzul

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Arctic Tundra

Pints N Quarts [PsQs]

02 May 2006 at 16:17 - 1

so, a few days ago i had to re-accept the license agreement on my 2nd account and i figured i would read up on the recent changes that were made...
what i found is this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by End User License Agreement

NC Interactive reserves the right to alter the fees payable for new Chapters or introduce alternative fee structures for the Service. Any alteration to the purchase price will be posted on the Web Site at least 30 days prior to such alteration taking effect. If you do not agree to any such alteration, you should not purchase the new Chapter and/or you should terminate your Account prior to the date on which the alteration takes effect, otherwise the revised amount will automatically be debited to your Account.

and although i don't speak "legal-mumbojumbo" it got me and a few guildmates worried... basically it is a legal loophole to introduce whatever fee-system they like.
gaile stated we wouldn't have to pay a monthly for now: but it would be very possible with this. all they need to do is post about it 30 days before they want to start billing. bind them with 1 year of free play, then drag them into the subscription? please tell me i am just overly scared...

parts of it may refer to the purchase of character slots - but where does it end? buying more storage space or a lag-free connection?
i am usually not the person to point at anet and ask for clearance: but it would be nice to have a statement on the possibility of monthly fees in the upcoming chapters. will the new fee structure just apply to features like additional character slots or will anet start a fee system for the "service" of playing on your servers???

honestly, i am flat out clueless; i sent in a report but i don't think they will reveil any vicious plans (if they exist): so i post it here again to point this loophole out to everyone who is enjoying a great game without monthly subscription fee (like i do). the future might be holding some grim surprises for us...

~Uzul~

Sekkira

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2005

Canberra, AU

02 May 2006 at 16:20 - 2

Dude, this is just to pay fees for the chapters. IE, Purchasing them.

Mr_T_bot

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2006

02 May 2006 at 16:21 - 3

This game hasn't proven itself to be worth a monthly fee.

No, Sekkira, they can chage the fee structure to whatever they like, ie pay per month.

makosi

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

"Pre-nerf" is incorrect. It's pre-buff.

Requirement Begins With R [notQ]

Me/

02 May 2006 at 16:39 - 4

it won't happen though. If people's lives were destroyed by by the AoE nerf that anet decided on, then monthly fees could possibly kill them.

ubrikkean

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

E/

02 May 2006 at 16:42 - 5

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_T_bot

This game hasn't proven itself to be worth a monthly fee.

No, Sekkira, they can chage the fee structure to whatever they like, ie pay per month.

but obviously not without changing the EULA

Phrozenflame

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2005

02 May 2006 at 16:43 - 6

this is something really...that...we need someone official to answer it...

Ctb

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

W/

02 May 2006 at 16:44 - 7

Erm, Sekkira:

Quote:

...right to alter the fees payable for new Chapters or introduce alternative fee structures for the Service...

You don't need to speek legal gibberish to know that this means "we can do whatever we want with our pricing".

As with most legalese, it doesn't mean anything, of course. They provide the service so they can set whatever pricing they want. They probably just don't want to create any kind of impression of a contract where certain fees are agreed upon between them and the end user. Better to make it explicitly set in stone that they set the price than have some yahoo sueing them over some ridiculous legal technicality down the road because chapter 83 is $55 instead of $50.

Does it mean they can do whatever they want with the pricing? Yes.

Should this surprise you since it's their product? No.

Does it foreshadow any nasty surprises in the near future? Exceptionally unlikely.

Trin Storm

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2006

Balthazar's Fury

R/Me

02 May 2006 at 16:45 - 8

I bet that was in the first one too. It legeal protections for them to make changes necessary in the business. It does not mean they will, it just means they gave themselves the option. Covering all the bases.

pigdestroyer

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

Los Chavos Del [ocho]

W/

02 May 2006 at 16:45 - 9

I can only imagine the number of threads and rants this would lead to...

SylverDragon

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2006

Cheshire, UK

02 May 2006 at 16:57 - 10

This has been brought up before, and I think you'll find that that part of the license agreement was much the same before.

Notice it says

If you do not agree to any such alteration, you should not purchase the new Chapter and/or you should terminate your Account prior to the date on which the alteration takes effect otherwise the revised amount will automatically be debited to your Account.

This seems to be an NC interactive license agreement, and it's referring to an NCsoft master account, which I believe is how all NCsoft's pay-to-play games are paid for. I suspect that this license is based on the license used across all NCsoft's games.

I'd agree that it covers them, but I don't believe it's anything for GW players to worry about.

Uzul

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Arctic Tundra

Pints N Quarts [PsQs]

02 May 2006 at 16:57 - 11

i am in contact with the PR-section and should have offical words on this soon.
remember: we are just discussing the possibility NOT the intent of anet to introduce further fees to their product.
personally i hope they needed this to introduce the ability to purchase of character slots or other things like that...

@sekkira: it definately means more than just the price for new chapters. it means they can charge for any service they provide: including the connection to the servers itself.
@trin storm: it was not in the first one - i would remember a passage like that. ( i am one of the few people that actually read the RoC and EULA.)

rancidgoat

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2006

[XoO] [AX]

N/Me

02 May 2006 at 16:59 - 12

i agree it would kill A-Net. one reason i play this game i because there is no monthly fee. i refuse to pay to play a game that i already paid $50 and now with Factions over $100 for and i know im not alone in this. but if i was going to pay to play a game it wouldnt be GW i would have to choose WoW, the gameplay is more in depth and imo it is a more challenging game and they have the framework for a pay to play already hammered out.

in other words A-Net, if this is what you are thinking.. think twice because as tempting as it may seem it will mean the death of you.

Huntmaster

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2006

I is not canadien

Guillotine Tactics [GanK]

R/

02 May 2006 at 17:00 - 13

If they started charging a monthly fee, they'd lose 3/4s of their players.

Tien ak

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2006

Crystal Indignation

R/W

02 May 2006 at 17:05 - 14

Well It's very unlikely Arena net is going to put monthly fee's to guild wars why? beacuse that's their main goal for there to be no monthly fee listen to the interviews of the Guild wars team they allways point out there are no monthly fee's.

Viruzzz

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

02 May 2006 at 17:10 - 15

just out of curiosity, did anyone bother checking the EULA of other MMO games? this seems like a standard thing tp åut in there..

besides, they haven't got your credit card number or anything, so they can't charge you just ilke that

Uzul

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Arctic Tundra

Pints N Quarts [PsQs]

02 May 2006 at 17:10 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by SylverDragon

This has been brought up before, and I think you'll find that that part of the license agreement was much the same before.

Notice it says

If you do not agree to any such alteration, you should not purchase the new Chapter and/or you should terminate your Account prior to the date on which the alteration takes effect otherwise the revised amount will automatically be debited to your Account.

This seems to be an NC interactive license agreement, and it's referring to an NCsoft master account, which I believe is how all NCsoft's pay-to-play games are paid for. I suspect that this lisence is based on the license used across all NCsoft's games.

I'd agree that it covers them, but I don't believe it's anything for GW players to worry about.

the lines i quoted are part of the gw-eula (gw.com, not ncsoft.com): but yes they speak about ncsoft(!) reserving the right to [etc]

i am not really worried: just curious why there is a legal term in the EULA that wasn't there before (i am really sure it wasn't there a few months ago when i last checked) - and additionally: why is there a term regarding fees that will be applied to your account when you don't terminate it?
i have a master account at ncsoft so i can buy gw-keys without hassle... but that is a one-time-payment. yes they sell other keys as well - for example CoH/CoV where a monthly fee is applied.
probably this this little part about terminating the account to prevent billing is a standard-phrase that ncsoft uses for all their game's eulas?

i like to believe that - but i am having a hard time doing so until i heard it from an official source.

Mercury Angel

Avatar of Gwen

Join Date: Apr 2005

Wandering my own road.

02 May 2006 at 17:19 - 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huntmaster

If they started charging a monthly fee, they'd lose 3/4s of their players.

And the rest would say, 'Suck it up. It's not even a day's work.' , or, 'Good riddance.', 'Good, the kiddies will be gone', or, 'Get a job.', as per the standard way these things turn out on MMORPGs.

But I digress.

It can happen; It's a distinct possibility.
Whatever Gaile may say, it's been shown that her word is not set in stone. She has been shown to be somewhat unreliable due to the simple fact that she has no control over what goes on with the game.
There's no way to say definitively that we won't be told by her that "There will never be a monthly fee", when suddenly we get one, and she says, "Oops. I misunderstood/was not told that it would happen."

Not to bash Gaile. To reiterate, she doesn't make the decisions.

But as for now, I highly doubt there're plans to introduce a fee structure.
We've gone for over a year without a new chapter, and now we're going to expect new chapters every half year. Revenues shouldn't sink low enough to really warrant it for some time.

But this is all just speculation.

We all know, or should know, that Anet has the right to delete our accounts and cut off our access to their servers at any time, and yet we trust them not to treat us so. And I, personally, trust them to be faithful in these matters as well.

jules

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2005

Xen of Sigils [XoO]

02 May 2006 at 17:25 - 18

Arenanet has made statements on more than one occasion that they will never ever be monthly fees. Unless there is some sort of financial collapse, or the rights to the game get sold, I expect that this will continue to be the way the game runs. After all, the lack of monthly fees is what drew a lot of us to this game. I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that I would stop playing GW if a monthly fee was introduced.

Anyway, I really should read those EULAs before clicking the Accept button.

zerohaste

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

02 May 2006 at 17:37 - 19

One of the entire reasons why GWs was so successful in the first place was because it didn't have a monthly fee. It's why the game got so much attention at first. I highly doubt they will ever turn around and suddenly charge a monthly fee to play it. Alternative charges, yes (character slots), but a monthly fee? Highly unlikely. Not only would there be a huge backlash, they would lose a lot of attention on their game and customers.

eudas

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2006

Tx, USA

The Infinite Monkeys [TYPE]

W/

02 May 2006 at 17:38 - 20

To follow up from Mercury's comments:

Gaile is a mouthpiece. She's a "Community Manager". Her job is to smoothe ruffled feathers, to give the impression of a listening company, and to reiterate PR flak repeatedly in a way that the community will eventually accept. She's not there to make promises, to guarantee accuracy in what she says, or to serve as a go-between/feedback device from the customers to the developers.

She is there to soothe the worried minds of the guild wars children, and lull them back to sleep so that the money machine keeps pumping, because she is part of that machine.

eudas

Mandy Memory

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

USA

Xen of Sigils [XoO]

W/

02 May 2006 at 18:19 - 21

How exactly would they bill your account? Thats a standard NCsoft eula, prolly required in every game they are part of. Anet has no way to bill you, as they have no number to use to do it.

(besides, thats always been there...since they added the eula)

Forsythe

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2006

In a pup tent near your house.

[DOJL]

02 May 2006 at 18:22 - 22

No monthly fees was the #1 selling point for me. If that goes, so do I.

Pompeyfan

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

Isle of Wight

DVDF

R/

02 May 2006 at 18:35 - 23

A monthly fee would kill GW as there's not enough content to justify it - I've gone through the game a few times with different characters and replayed some areas loads of times BUT if there'd been a monthly fee I'd have ditched GW last September after finishing it with my 1st character.

To justify a monthly fee there'd need to be enough new content and progression to keep a single character going, as it stands thats not the case and not everyone likes the PvP side.

Vel Satis

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2005

No guild as yet

02 May 2006 at 18:37 - 24

Quote:

If you do not agree to any such alteration, you should not purchase the new Chapter and/or you should terminate your Account prior to the date on which the alteration takes effect otherwise the revised amount will automatically be debited to your Account.

Could it be that for future chapters you'll need an NCSoft account which, rather than have a monthly fee, will just take the cash for the newly released chapter from your CC or bank account and automatically give you access to it?

(On a side note, this might solve some of their distribution problems

)

Hockster

Banned

Join Date: Jul 2005

02 May 2006 at 18:38 - 25

This is included to cover the Asian versions which are typically pay to play as many play only in internet cafes.

SpeedyKQ

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

E/Me

02 May 2006 at 19:36 - 26

Eventually, in the hopefully distant future, when three new generations of MMO's have come and gone, it will become unprofitable to keep developing new Guild Wars expansions, and they'll be making very little money selling new copies of existing Guild Wars games.

At that point, there will still be servers to maintain, even though no new money will be coming in. Then they'll have to choose between shutting down the servers altogether or switching to a monthy fee structure.

This point in the future will come. We can only hope it is a LONG ways off.

Ctb

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

W/

02 May 2006 at 19:51 - 27

Decay is not inevitable, nor is the eventual death of the no service fee system. Even if one (erroneously) assumes that the game must eventually decay both in its ability to pull new players and technology, there's no reason they could not feed the network with additional income from other projects. One would hope that Anet has plans further down the road that do not revolve entirely on the expansion of Guild Wars. Eggs and baskets and all that.

Note, after all, that if the game itself decays, the userbase will too, cutting support costs, and if you're no longer actively developing extensions to it, your primary expense becomes maintaining the network. With the drop in costs from the ended development/marketing cycle and the diminished userbase, that one cost would likely be negligible.

Count to Potato

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

Imagination Land

I Swear She Was Eighteen [Gwen]

W/

02 May 2006 at 19:56 - 28

GW without monthly fee = over 1,000,000 players, Guild wars with monthly fee = about 200,000 players

Clear and Simple more people buy the game withoiut monthly fee.

strcpy

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

One of Many [ONE]

02 May 2006 at 20:13 - 29

For those that say it was never in there before, may I present this. I'll quote the section:

"(1)5. CHAPTER PURCHASE
Our fees and billing procedures are published in the registration section of the Web Site, which are incorporated herein by this reference. All fees are stated in U.S. Dollars. YOUR CHAPTER PURCHASE IS PAYABLE IN ADVANCE AND IS NOT REFUNDABLE IN WHOLE OR IN PART FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, INTERRUPTION OR UNAVAILABILITY OF SERVICE (SEE ALSO SECTION 10 BELOW). (2)We will automatically charge your credit card for applicable new Chapter purchases, plus any applicable taxes we are required to collect, where you authorize us to do so. All new Chapter purchases are payable in advance. YOU ARE FULLY LIABLE FOR ALL CHARGES TO YOUR ACCOUNT. (3)By paying by credit card, you represent to NC Interactive that you are the authorized user of the credit card used to pay the new Chapter purchase. You agree to promptly notify NC Interactive of any changes to your credit card account number, its expiration date and/or your billing address, and you agree to promptly notify NC Interactive if your credit card expires or is cancelled for any reason. NC Interactive reserves the right to alter the fees payable for new Chapters or introduce alternative fee structures for the Service. Any alteration to the purchase price will be posted on the Web Site at least 30 days prior to such alteration taking effect. If you do not agree to any such alteration, you should not purchase the new Chapter and/or you should terminate your Account prior to the date on which the alteration takes effect, otherwise the revised amount will automatically be debited to your Account." (bolding done by me)

Note the date and adding a pre-order key (4-4-2005, pre-order for prophecies). Also note that one could easily cut and paste all the posts from each and not know which is from where. We haven't gotten monthly fees yet. You can also search and find the exact same argument in the last update that changed the EULA. It also gets brough up on other boards from time to time when someone decides to read the EULA.

So, if you didn't see it I rather suspect that you haven't read that EULA as well as you thought.

Terra Xin

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Mar 2006

New Zealand

Me/R

02 May 2006 at 20:14 - 30

Well, Factions blew me away. If they do have subscriptions in the future, they'd have to out-do WoW by a lightyear - and that's just to cover their reputation on NOT having subscription fees. (Ref: Readbox)

lol, Relying on Anet to be faithful to us and not charging monthlies is just someone venting air. They don't have control over that, the GW population does. As long as 'we' keep buying the game, Anet will have money, and they wont come back to haunt us^^.

Fitz Rinley

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

The Rusty Rose

W/Mo

02 May 2006 at 20:26 - 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tien ak

Well It's very unlikely Arena net is going to put monthly fee's to guild wars why? beacuse that's their main goal for there to be no monthly fee listen to the interviews of the Guild wars team they allways point out there are no monthly fee's.

That ws the main goal of NetZero also. They eventually failed to do it. Advertizing income wasn't sufficient to keep them up and expanding. They had to go to a minimal pay system.

Fitz

Uzul

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Arctic Tundra

Pints N Quarts [PsQs]

02 May 2006 at 20:28 - 32

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

For those that say it was never in there before, may I present this. I'll quote the section:
[...]

thanks for the update - glad i could learn something.
the reasons i posted this was because i know some people who really got worried about this: thanks for all the constructive and explanatory replies that will help me put their mind at ease just like mine is.

i did some research and the part quoted in my OP is part of every ncsoft eula that goes with their online games: and like posted recently, in a lot of asian countries they offer gw for a fee - so this is something that is very important to those account holders who pay a monthly.

i am sorry if i caused uproar, but community boards are there to take care of things like this: and gwg has been a trustworthy companion for me since beta.

thanks all, imo ready to be closed since all relevant information is present.

supertramp

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

In....... oh g2g

The Black Hand Gang

E/N

02 May 2006 at 22:04 - 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Count to Potato

GW without monthly fee = over 1,000,000 players, Guild wars with monthly fee = about 200,000 players

Clear and Simple more people buy the game withoiut monthly fee.

More like 10 people with the fee.

zerohaste

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

02 May 2006 at 22:24 - 34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

That ws the main goal of NetZero also. They eventually failed to do it. Advertizing income wasn't sufficient to keep them up and expanding. They had to go to a minimal pay system.

Fitz

Two completely different things. Netzero didn't charge for the software, Anet does. Now, if Guild Wars was completely free, as in, you could just download it instead of paying $50 for the software, then you would have a point.

Cash

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Bound By Wild Desire [Wild]

02 May 2006 at 22:55 - 35

no monthly fee was the reason i started playing GW. i dont think id stick around if one was added simply because some weeks i play 4 or 5 hours a day for 4 or 5 days. other weeks, i dont even log on. my own inconsistancy in playing would keep me from spending money on something i may not play enough to justify whats spent.

back to the legal bit tho- ANET does have pretty much carte blanche. they *could* institute a fee at any time they wanted, EULA or no. im no lawyer, but most EULAs have more holes than swiss cheese. however, i dont think they will. my guess is theyll pump out chapters as fast as they can, hook us with stuff like more character slots (which is fine because thats a players CHOICE), and more storage space (my guess for the next "$10 for ....). many players will pay, keeping the subscription high, and keeping us away from a monthly fee.

CK0

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2006

02 May 2006 at 23:00 - 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by supertramp

More like 10 people with the fee.

And those 10 will be the game devs, Frog, and GG.

Navaros

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2005

Mo/Me

02 May 2006 at 23:05 - 37

Anet made a Poll on IGN several months ago, asking if people would pay a monthly fee for Guild Wars and thankfully the vast majority of voters voted against the idea.

Then, some Anet employee(s) posted in regards to the Poll something like: "There will never be monthly fees to play Guild Wars."

Red

Rawr!

Join Date: Mar 2006

Kentucky, USA

Team Love [kiSu]

Mo/

02 May 2006 at 23:19 - 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

it won't happen though. If people's lives were destroyed by by the AoE nerf that anet decided on, then monthly fees could possibly kill them.

.... makosi, your wit thrills me in literary ways I never thought possible. ^_^

Mandy Memory

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

USA

Xen of Sigils [XoO]

W/

02 May 2006 at 23:23 - 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

This is included to cover the Asian versions which are typically pay to play as many play only in internet cafes.

Good point, I forgot that the Asian nations have the option of buying the game, or paying per hour played. This could just be there to cover that.

sinisters chaos

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

ATLANTA

No Clue [emt]

W/R

02 May 2006 at 23:29 - 40

i saw someone say that the no monthly fee was one of there selling quotes but so was "MERGE ACCOUTNS AND GET 100% ACCESS TO BOTH WORLDS" didnt happened as planned now did it

Also, GW would go out of business cuz i kno me and most other players would rather play another P2P game, and not GW, becuz the game isnt good enuf to P2P and thats the truth for many people. xD