Sentinel's PvP build, need feedback

Ruhern

Ruhern

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2006

Darkstone Azure

W/N

Okay so what do you think of this build, please let me know what you think and tell me any flaws you see (meaning things that this build will have a tough time with).

Warrior/Monk

Armor:
All Sentinel's with Knight's Boots or Gloves (depending on your visual preference)

Weapon (primary):
Axe or Sword
3/-1 vampiric mod
+1 Axe/Sword (20% chance)
15% more damage while enchanted

Weapon (secondary):
Axe or Sword, no Vampiric Mod, but anything else you want

Shields:
Strength shield with +45 health -2 received damage while enchanted
Strength shield with +60 health -3 received damage while hexed
Or whatever else you want

Runes:
Superior Axe/Sword
Superior Absorption
Superior Strength
Superior Vigor

Attributes:
Strength 9+1+3 = 13
Axe/Sword 11+3 = 14
Healing 8
Smiting 8

Skills:
Battle Rage (Strength)
Standing Slash (Swordsmanship, Factions)
Sun and Moon Slash (Swordsmanship, Factions)
Galrath Slash (Swordsmanship)
Factions Galrath Slash equivalent (forgot the name)
Mending (Healing, +3 health regen)
Strength of Honor (Smiting, +6 damage)
Ressurection Sigent

The idea of the build is pretty straight forward. Cast Mending, Cast Strength of Honor, get Battle Rage going and go nuts with the adrenaline skills. You've got 13% armor penetration from you Strength being at 13, constant healing from Mending + Vampiric. 9 extra damage from Strength of Honor and Vampiric. And you've got 100 armor. Sure you get dinged VS degen, but what warrior build doesn't?

Then there is the Axe version where you use 4 axe adrenaline skills. I haven't done it yet but plan to as soon as I can. With Factions, there are now two versions of Penetrating blow, which means 33% armor penetration. I'd use those two, Dismember for the Deep Wound, and Executioner's Strike for the good Damage. I think the Axe version will work out better due to the Deep Wound skill. I doin't like using Sever/Gash with sword because it limits the damage "spike" from having 4 good damaging skills down to two (once you cause bleeding and deep wound those two skills become useless against the same target).

I also tried incorporating Sigent of Strength (at 13 Strength: Your Next 14 attacks do +5 damage) for a total of +14 damage per attack but it caused problems with Battle Rage.

Let me know what you think, thanks!

Excal

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2006

Scotland

Ozone Guild [OzGw]

Mo/E

Do not bring mending in pvp, ever.

JR

JR

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Excal
Do not bring mending in pvp, ever. QFT.

And if you are going to put strength up to 13, for the love of god at least use some decent strength skills to justify it. Bull's Strike, Endure Pain... etc. Battle Rage is fairly bad.

Ruhern

Ruhern

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2006

Darkstone Azure

W/N

Excal:
Please expand. Why not bring Mending into PvP? I never quite understood this one.

Of course I play mostly RA, but my question still stands.


JR-:
If I have -2 energy regen from enchantments I can't bring in skills that require energy.

And what's wrong with Battle Rage? Move 25% faster, it's like a constant Sprint, plus gain adrenaline faster: you can use those adrenaline skills twice as many times. It just takes 4 hits to start the madness.

Katari

Katari

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Upstate

Me/

Mending is a bad heal on a character that doesn't need to devote atribute points to healing anyway. It is a waste of energy, atribute points, and the skill slot that it ocupies. A warrior should be able to get away with healing sig as a heal in PvP, if that.

You have no Deep Wound, why? It looks like you're confusing DPS with spiking.

Personaly I don't why you'd use Sentinal's armor anyway. If you insist on using Battle Rage, you could use Legionare's and then not be 'forced' into using a +str helm, which is good because +str helms suck.

16 Sword
? Str
? Tactics

Sever
Gash
Final Thrust
*something*
Bull's Charge
Frenzy
Healing Signet
Res Sig

That should work better if you plan on killing targets in PvP.

Gigamaster89

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2006

W/E

Mending's healing pips is so small it really doesn't make a difference unless your running away. With all the health degen and spikes, 3 or so more regen is...not too great.

I use Battles Rage sometimes for farming but that fact that when it ends, you lose all adrenaline and you can't use any non-attack spell while it's on isn't too beneficial.

Anyway, the name of the skill your thinking of is Silverwing Slash.

wangburger

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

W/

I usually do a build quite similar to thisin RA except I use an axe. Legionaries (sp?) armor is your best bet because you should always be in a stance with battle rage on.

Falcon213

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruhern
With Factions, there are now two versions of Penetrating blow, which means 33% armor penetration. Armor penetration from PB and Strength don't stack. It's 20% flat.

I can't think of any time in pvp where you would ever want more than 9 strength. 9 means you can use victo's/tanzit's and have 12 sec sprint/15 sec rush. Armor penetration doesn't do enough to warrant any more points.

glountz

glountz

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/Mo

Use this build with the following equipment to have fun in RA with sentinel armor.
Warrior/Necro

Equipment
Sentinel Armor except for boots: Use Knight boots.
Zealous axe of defense (+1 energy on hit/-1 energy regen, +5 armor, +15% damage when in stance)
Shield (AL 16, +45Hp, -2 Damage reduction when in stance)
Sup absorption rune.
Sup vigor rune.

Attributes
12+3 Axe
9+1+3 Strenght
9+1 Tactics

Skills
Rez signet
Plague touch
Healing signet
Frenzy
Rush
"Watch Yourself"
Power Attack
Eviscerate [E]

Warrior basics apply:
Use frenzy only to spike or against static opponents. Don't use healing signet under frenzy. Renew Watch yourself only when needed or to protect a nearby teammate. Trigger the Deep Wound of Eviscerate with Power attack, which you should spam. Be in Rush state always to meet your equipment requirements.
Use plague touch only to get rid of problematic conditions (Blind/Cripple). Fight degen with Healing signet.

Have fun with your 141 armor/-7Damage reduction.
A max fireball shouldn't deal to you more than 30 damage.

Nightwish

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2005

Giving up hp (sup rune) for higher armor worth it?

glountz

glountz

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightwish
Giving up hp (sup rune) for higher armor worth it? Yes.
In the build I gave, you have still 101 armor/-7 when casting Healing signet. The +45Hp from the shield helps too (you have 425 HP when in stance, not so bad).
Big deal with Sentinel armor is too laugh at elementalists' faces.
However in real PvP you don't need this armor, just to focus on damage.

In PVE, Sentinel armor is the ultimate farming armor, IMO.

Ruhern

Ruhern

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2006

Darkstone Azure

W/N

Okay, so the main point is damage right...

The way I see it, my build still does more damage than the builds presented to me. With Battle Rage, adrenaline gain is increased, making my 4 adrenaline damage skills more spammable, not to mention I'm running 25% faster all the time.

holden

holden

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

[NICE]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruhern
Okay, so the main point is damage right...

The way I see it, my build still does more damage than the builds presented to me. With Battle Rage, adrenaline gain is increased, making my 4 adrenaline damage skills more spammable, not to mention I'm running 25% faster all the time.
your build won't do more damage than glountz's.

mending is a selfish skill for pvp. drop if for something that will help the team and trust that your monk will heal you.
if you want to hang out in random arena and don't care about team play then just drop it for a skill that's good. the heal you get from it isn't worth the energy lost.

battlerage isn't a bad skill. but if you have to give up your elite spot you want more than what it gives. for example, eviscerate is fantastic because it's adrenal and does crazy damage that often will finish your target. battlerage is a speed buff but sprint works great at low strength. gaining double adrenaline is also nice but if you don't have eviscerate to use with all that adrenaline it's like pizza without cheese.

you have 8 in smite just for +6 damage. put that towards your weapon and get it to 16.

i think the armor is cool too but if you're gonna put an attribute that high you need to work your build around it. if you drop the inefficient mending you'll have the energy to use strength based skills.

Excal

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2006

Scotland

Ozone Guild [OzGw]

Mo/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruhern
Excal:

Please expand. Why not bring Mending into PvP? I never quite understood this one.
Quote: Originally Posted by Katari
Mending is a bad heal on a character that doesn't need to devote atribute points to healing anyway. It is a waste of energy, atribute points, and the skill slot that it ocupies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by holden

mending is a selfish skill for pvp. drop if for something that will help the team and trust that your monk will heal you.
if you want to hang out in random arena and don't care about team play then just drop it for a skill that's good. the heal you get from it isn't worth the energy lost. Ty for saving me from typing this

Ruhern

Ruhern

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2006

Darkstone Azure

W/N

Like I said, I play mostly RA. If I played TA or anything else where I knew there'd be monks it'd be a different story I suppose. However, I did drop the attribute points from healing and put them into Tactics using Healing Signet (however using this skill ends Battle Rage, hindering the whole idea of the build very much). I even messed around with no Smiting, maxed out Swords and put the rest into Tactics using 5 different attack skills.

I must say though, that glountz's build does NOT do more damage than my build. Power Attack, Eviscerate, and Frenzy do not meet the damage output of 4 or 5 attack skills with Battle Rage. If you don't believe me, try it out for yourself.

And one thing I was wondering, if I'm supposed to depend on the monk and not bring my own monk heal skills, why would I bring healing sig? Double standards, all of you! Shame! If Mending is not enough, I'll bring Mending and Live Vicariously.

Katari

Katari

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Upstate

Me/

Well, I don't have any idea why glontz put power attack on that build...

Attributes
12+1+3 Axe
6+1 Strenght
11+1 Tactics

Skills
Rez signet
Plague touch
Healing signet
Frenzy
Sprint
"Watch Yourself"
Exe Strike
Eviscerate [E]

That's a bit better, you should swap out 'WY!" for another attack skill if you plan to use this build outside of RA. Altough I am honestly not a fan of playing warriors in RA as it is.

Edit, eh, I don't even use "WY!" in RA for that matter...

glountz

glountz

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katari
Well, I don't have any idea why glontz put power attack on that build...
Because Exec costs 7 AD. Spamming Rush and WY seriously alter your AD gain. Power attack does +27 damage (thanks to your high strenght) every 4 seconds.
Because of the "AD sucking" by rush and watch yourself, you will spam Exec a lot less often.
Try both, you'll see.
Evisc is too powerful to get rid of it.

However, by looking your build, I must say that 13 Strenght is a prerequisite to wear the sentinel armor - with a helmet +1 strenght and not +1 Weapon (so you have to build a gimmick build around that value). You have only 7. Hmm, maybe you missed the point of this thread?
Whatever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruhern
I must say though, that glountz's build does NOT do more damage than my build. Power Attack, Eviscerate, and Frenzy do not meet the damage output of 4 or 5 attack skills with Battle Rage. If you don't believe me, try it out for yourself. I must admit I agree completely with you. Your build has more DPS, no matter what I can say.
But it is completely unflexible. You have nothing to get rid of all those nasty conds you'll get in RA/TA. You have no efficient self healing, no monk mean your death. You have no Deep wound plus IAS to spike, so your sipke capabilities a pretty much limited even if your overall DPS are greater.
I you wanted to focus on damage, my point is: don't use sentinel armor! The only reason to use it is for the defense it provides (so I build a rather defensive build who still could kill effectively).
Boost your weapon mastery to 16 (14 is too low), wear Dragons and Battle Rage if you want.
But Battle rage stuck you with attack skills, meaning no flexibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruhern
And one thing I was wondering, if I'm supposed to depend on the monk and not bring my own monk heal skills, why would I bring healing sig? Double standards, all of you! Shame! If Mending is not enough, I'll bring Mending and Live Vicariously. Healing signet is energy free and can fight heavy damage load if you know how to play. Your mending can't fight the damage you'll take if you're targeted.

Excal

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2006

Scotland

Ozone Guild [OzGw]

Mo/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruhern
Like I said, I play mostly RA. If I played TA or anything else where I knew there'd be monks it'd be a different story I suppose. However, I did drop the attribute points from healing and put them into Tactics using Healing Signet (however using this skill ends Battle Rage, hindering the whole idea of the build very much). I even messed around with no Smiting, maxed out Swords and put the rest into Tactics using 5 different attack skills.

I must say though, that glountz's build does NOT do more damage than my build. Power Attack, Eviscerate, and Frenzy do not meet the damage output of 4 or 5 attack skills with Battle Rage. If you don't believe me, try it out for yourself.

And one thing I was wondering, if I'm supposed to depend on the monk and not bring my own monk heal skills, why would I bring healing sig? Double standards, all of you! Shame! If Mending is not enough, I'll bring Mending and Live Vicariously. Healing Signet is a good self heal if used correctly, mending is not.

Frenzy is a sufficent adrenaline gainer and it adds extra pressure to the enemy, ditch Battle Rage and take the new sword elite Dragon Slash or even quivering blade which is nice and spammable provided it doesnt get blocked, and try to fit in Contemplation Of Purity its a decent self heal which has the potential to remove all your hexes and conditions and give you a 3/4 second heal provided you have enough enchantments on you, which could be useful in GvG/HA

Ruhern

Ruhern

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2006

Darkstone Azure

W/N

Good points. I guess this is more of a gimmick build for RA. It works pretty well there for the most part. It's difficult to balance warrior defenses (removal of hexes/conditions) while still maintaining good offense. Bring too many defenses and you are near worthless in the offense. Bring only a little defense and it's never enough. Maybe I'll just have to start bringing Purge Signet along with me.

Though Contemplation of Purity won't work very well as a heal, since it's a Divine Favor skill (Monk Primary attribute).

Beat_Go_Stick

Beat_Go_Stick

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by glountz
Use this build with the following equipment to have fun in RA with sentinel armor.
Warrior/Necro

Equipment
Sentinel Armor except for boots: Use Knight boots.
Zealous axe of defense (+1 energy on hit/-1 energy regen, +5 armor, +15% damage when in stance)
Shield (AL 16, +45Hp, -2 Damage reduction when in stance)
Sup absorption rune.
Sup vigor rune.

Attributes
12+3 Axe
9+1+3 Strenght
9+1 Tactics

Skills
Rez signet
Plague touch
Healing signet
Frenzy
Rush
"Watch Yourself"
Power Attack
Eviscerate [E] Imo, the extra point of Tactics really isn't worth it. I would go:
12+1+3 Axe
10+3 Strength
8+1 Tactics

Healing Signet still heals for 110, I think, "WY!" still lasts plenty long enough when you need it, and the extra point of Axe will do some good

Otherwise I would change nothing

Heh, I really need to pick up a 15k set of this stuff for my W/Mo

Katari

Katari

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Upstate

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by glountz
However, by looking your build, I must say that 13 Strenght is a prerequisite to wear the sentinel armor - with a helmet +1 strenght and not +1 Weapon (so you have to build a gimmick build around that value). You have only 7. Hmm, maybe you missed the point of this thread?
Whatever.

...

I you wanted to focus on damage, my point is: don't use sentinel armor! The only reason to use it is for the defense it provides (so I build a rather defensive build who still could kill effectively).
Boost your weapon mastery to 16 (14 is too low), wear Dragons and Battle Rage if you want.
But Battle rage stuck you with attack skills, meaning no flexibility. That was exactly the idea, and hey, you seem to have missed the point by just as much.

Sentinal's armor requires either a gimmic build, or one that lacks a self-heal, or a build designed for some place besides RA, and really, outside of RA(debatable) and PvE, a warrior shouldn't focus that much on defense. Besides, do you actually find that it is elemental and attack damage that kills your warriors in RA most of the time? I sure don't.

On the topic of strength, unless you are using a rather large amount of strength skills, there is just no reason to boost strength that high. None. Battle Rage, and Bull's Strike might justify a 10-11 str after runes, but that is about it. Bringing a sup str rune to RA is a downright bad idea.

If you really want to weaken your adrenal spike, Swift Chop might be more effective than power attack, since it doesn't require as much of an investment in strength. On that note, I like Exe Strike because it actually helps kill stuff. Having more than two attack skills also helps to kill stuff.

If Rush drains too much adrenaline, then use Sprint.

Yukito Kunisaki

Yukito Kunisaki

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2005

Chicago, IL

W/N

If you're going to use Battle Rage, you're going to need a weapon with no great attack elites...

What's this King Arthur? Yeah, THE SWORD!!!

"I like swords..."

Even in Factions, the sword elite simply doesn't do the raw utility or damage compared to Eviscerate or Devastating Hammer. If I were to make a Sword Elite usable, it'd be:

Disembowel: 8a. If it hits, you deal +40 dmg @ 16 swords and the enemy starts bleeding for 30s. Double the damage if their hp is ABOVE 50%...

At least they could use it with a weapon specific effect... Gash and Final Thrust afterward for the win...

But for now, a sword with Battle Rage can look like this:

Sever Artery, Gash, Galrath Slash, Final Thrust, Battle Rage {E}, IWAY

[hey, there's your IAS with your increased adrenaline input and nasty damage skills, have fun!]

glountz

glountz

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katari
That was exactly the idea, and hey, you seem to have missed the point by just as much.
Yeah, but the OP wanted to use sentinel armor in this thread, so you're basically stuck with the 13 Strenght if you want to propose a build around this idea or there is no reason to wear Sentinel.


However in serious PvP I wouldn't either wear this armor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat_Go_Stick
<Snip> less tactics more weapon mastery Yes but the sentinel's helmet provides you with +1 Strenght. If you use a weapon mastery helmet you're finally wearing only 3 pieces of sentinel's armor on 5, loosing a significant part of sentinel's protection. But it's a choice.

Zui

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

The Benecia Renovatio [RenO]

Mo/

To answer the OPs question about Mending:

Mending is going to require you to divert points from somthing, on a Warrior that's usualy going to be out of Strength, Tactics, or a weapon mastery. Making your overall damage or support capabilities alittle bit more limited.

Mending also causes your energy to regenerate at 1/2 the rate, with 1 pip you'll gain 1 energy every 3 seconds. So you're screwed on any energy skills, such as sprint(if you're using this over rush), bulls strike, frenzy, only being able to use them at 1/2 the rate of not having mending would allow. If you're using a second enchantment, you're now totaly screwed on energy. You can use a zealous mod if you're just running mending, but what if your target is kiting, especialy under a movement speed buff, or has a block/evade stance or enchant on? Your effect from zealous is recuded, and you're in the same mess with energy.

Essentialy, there are a wide array of enchantment removal skills or skills that revolve enchantments that will severely hurt you, or help your opponent. Monks or Mesmers can run drain enchant, and many mesmers do. Allowing them to get energy, make you waste time/energy, then use the energy they gained to inflict a world of hurt on you or your allies, or heal their own allies. Another, shatter enchantment, nasty stuff. 106 damage at 16 domination magic. Ouch. Strip Enchant is one for necros, they can strip it off you and be healed for 126 points at 16 blood magic. There are others, but for RA theese are fairly common, for TA/HA/GvG you'll see drain enchantment and shatter enchantment more than you'll ever see strip enchantment. The point here is who's a better target than that whammo that has mending up 24/7?

So, now let's talk about the world of good Mending does you, aside from the negative aspects of screwing your energy, wasting your attribute points, and possibly helping your foes.

At 8 healing prayers you get 3 pips of regen from Mending. One pip of health regen is 2 points of health ganed per second. Meaning you gain an entire 6 points of health per second. That's 360 health per minute, at the cost of 20 energy per minute of energy regeneration, and 10 energy, not a horrible trade off? Let's take the monk spell heal other at the same amount of healing prayers(8), for the same energy cost it takes for a minute of mending you can heal someone else for 336 points. Wow, mendnig really is good! Think again.

Healing spells like Heal Other, or any healing for that matter is useful because it is healing on demand, you heal someone when they need healing, not while they're taking no damage, or slowly overtime in combat, not to mention they can be retargeted to anyone except in this case the healer, without having to use additional energy to recast mending and cancel the other one. Slowly overtime is maybe good for miniscule pressure damage, sure. You find alot of that type of damage in PvE, and amazingly mending is good in most areas in PvE.

In PvP you'll see the tencandy lean towards damage compression, not damage over time. Sure there's damage over time, and pressure from that, but that's not all it is, every once in awhile you're going to have a huge burst of damage from that other warrior with his adrenal skills fully charged, or that elementalist that's chaining some nasty air spells. If you're going to take lethal damage in 3 seconds due to damage compression what does mending do? It heals you for a whopping 18 health.

The point is ditch the maintained enchantments, run more support skills, maybe healing signet, maybe more damage skills. The difference you'll make with those will almost always be more than the difference you make with mending(over time, or in a short amount of time). Plus when dropping mending, you usualy are not constrained to being a W/Mo, you can do W/E, and W/N.

If you're really worried about dying due to damage compression or pressure, endure pain is an acceptable skill for PvP, more health for a short burst, and it ending won't drop you below 0(just down to 1 at the lowest). The best thing about it is, it's strength based, and that's better than healing. It'll help your sprint/rush, and your damage. There are other options of course, depends on your playstyle. But even going from w/mo with mendnig to a tiger's fury axe warrior is a huge improvment(but please don't do that).

Hope I got everything in there... Probably missed somthing, but hey it's 5 am... Time to get some sleep.

AtomicMew

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

I used to play a rage bonder in TA with my guild. It goes like this:

<attack skills>
battle rage
life bond
succor (or b. spirit)
res sig

Notes:
-Bond, succor the monk.
-Enchant removal isn't a problem, since the monk will cover it up with boon.
-B. spirit might be a good alternative to succor nowadays with all the assassins about.
-Your team needs to take hex removal on a non-monk, since CoP is now not an option.

This build is actually fairly common, and with sentinel's, it's even better. However, it's definitely NOT an RA build since it requires a ton of build coordination to work.

Have fun!

holden

holden

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

[NICE]

Mo/

[QUOTE=Ruhern]I must say though, that glountz's build does NOT do more damage than my build. Power Attack, Eviscerate, and Frenzy do not meet the damage output of 4 or 5 attack skills with Battle Rage. If you don't believe me, try it out for yourself./QUOTE]

i'm sorry i was thinking more along the lines of you having no way to remove weakness or blind. if you can't hit you can't build adrenaline and you're sunk.

Ruhern

Ruhern

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2006

Darkstone Azure

W/N

Thanks for all the info Zui. Okay so I've pretty much ditched the Mending thing. I can see where you guys are coming from now, and I tested it out and Healing Sig is much better. Check out my NEW idea though... (still using Sentinel's of course).

Armor
Duelist Helm
Knight's Boots
Sentinel's everything else

Runes
+3 Sword
+3 Strength
+1 Tactics
Superior Absorption
Superior Vigor

Weapon Mod
Zealous

Attributes
Strength 10 + 3 = 13
Swords 12 + 1 + 3 = 16
Tactics 8 + 1 = 9

Skills
Hundred Blades (E) (8 second recharge)
Seeking Blade (4 second recharge)
Sun and Moon Slash (8 adrenaline, attacks twice)
Final Thrust (10 adrenaline)
Sprint
Frenzy
Healing Signet
Ressurection Signet

Seeking Blade can't be blocked, if evaded causes target to bleed and take damage. Sun and Moon Slash, strikes twice, one can't be evaded, the other can't be blocked, also helps gain energy and adrenaline (enough to use Final Thrust right after). Hundred Blades helps with zealous too. What do you think?