Did the New Minions make up for the MM nerf?

One of the first things I did when I got to Factions was get my hands on the new minions, those being the Golem (which I can raise at lvl 26) and the Vampiric Horrors which give you back health with their attacks. Yes, we are limited to 10 minions now, and you are only allowed one Golem but I have seen mine hit for 200+ on a single blow. I feel very powerful with a team of these on my side.

Does this make up for the nerf? Other players are stunned by the Golems the first time they see them. I also have a habit of bringing them back to Tyria and running missions with them for guildies which adds to the drama of raising the Golem. I have not taken them into Underworld/Tombs yet, but how effective are the Golems down there, and how much are they in demand?

I have been playing my MM through and I honestly don't feel nerfed too badly. I think the new minions added much needed variety into the MM of old which pretty much only ever made bone fiends... obviously we can't get completely disgusting in some maps anymore where you could raise 15-20, but come on... how unfair is it that MMs got to basically over double their party size without needing to share drops. I mean that's just ridiculous versus what any other classes can do (aside from maybe some of the 55 builds.) My Mesmer cries at night because she can't carry parties as easy as my MM...

The new Minion Master armor is pretty spiffy too - much improved from what was shown at the FPE - +10 armor while you control 3 or more was pretty crappy, but Anet changed it to +5 while you control 1 or more, another +5 with 3 or more, and yet another +5 with 5 or more minions.

How many minion masters don't roll with 5 or more minions anyhow? +15 armor is hella sweet.

So I'd give Anet a "B+" on this one... a C for nerfing me, but an A for making up for it with new cool minions and armor.

Vampiric Horrors are good, with them you don't need self heals. Also they do definit damage to any class. I like the flesh golem too.

Well I never used an MM before the Nerf. But I made one for Cantha and I have to say that I'm not having much of a problem at all. The Minions are nice (Vampiric horror helps a lot with keeping health up), the Golem is nice, and I have absolutely NO problem getting into any group. It doesn't feel like a "nerfed" class/build at all.

No they cannot make up for it as my Necromancer is stuck in Prophecies. She has not finished prophecies. She will not for sometime. If she should find something necesary to make her MM equipment, it will be useless.

It is not that I did not purchase the my copies of the game early enough for NC Soft to know what they needed to provide. It is that they simply have not done their job. ANet did not adequately watchdog them. The public sources of purchase failed to find out about what was going on. Many of us do not have our games, are frozen from having access, and cannot play these things. We paid for it and they failed at every level to do anythng to ensure we would get the product we paid for in a timely and efficient manner.

Fitz Rinley

I've had no trouble with my "new" MM. Yes, it's a bit harder. I can't be basically on auto-pilot spawning minions. However, I never had much trouble maintaining 30-40 minions so 10 is a cakewalk. I've got mixed feelings on the Vamp Horrors... they're very expensive and have a slow recharge on the spell. However, they do add some very nice damage and help with the BotM. If I'm running Vamps I usually don't bring Verata's Sacrifice.

The Golem is sweet and I've known that since FPE. I've been using him to PvE and he's great against soft targets. He routinely hits the Afflicted casters for between 70-100 dmg. That's sweet. He also can absorb an incredble amount of damage. With dark bond up and a golem I'm next to impossible to kill.

I'd say ANet has made up about 70% of what they undid with the nerf.

Err.... Wha?

I don't get it.

EDIT: Nevermind, I caught your post in another thread. Although, I don't see why you're quite so upset. It sucks not to recieve the game, true... But it will be exactly the same when you get it, and you won't lose anything while you wait (if I understand correctly)...

(Yes, yes, Fitz, you're upset about your CE. Understandable but off topic.)

The minon masters I've grouped with in Cantha didn't appear to be overly nerfed, they did an excellent job of dishing out the damage and shielding the other casters. The abundance of fresh corpses no doubt helped, and they did require significant healing once they started spamming BotM, but their minions were providing more than enough utility to justify the healing they required.

Exactly. So many people keep acting like the new summons are part of the nerf update, that they balance the nerf out and vice versa. But the nerf affects ALL necromancers, even ones who don't buy Factions and don't get access to the new skills.

What are you talking about Fitz?

And I agree that minions were overpowered. They were hit a little too hard imo ie Verata's sacrifice. But the reduction of minions is something that can be lived with.

I believe the MM nerf was primarily for the 12v12 alliance battles.

In those battles, minion masters became invincible, unreachable and able to control the pace of battle.

i always found the best use for minions was to blow them up anyway=P

I lol'd...

If they were nerfed for that, PvP'ers should stop whining. It's so easy to beat them its not even funny. Seriously, just look at some Fire/Smite skills to kill them. Easier: Barrage + Judge's Insight (hits for 100+ damage/ minion)
Even easier: Verata's Aura or just kill the MM (was a bit hard due to Vampirics though)

Actually, the only reason MM were nerfed is because of Vampiric Horrors. If ANet only nerfed that skill, MM would pretty much be the same and not really overpowered, not even in PvE (only a few areas where a MM was good).

Anyway, I found a build for my MM, but I honestly don't like it. It were the numbers that did the trick for me, and probably for many others. Anyway, i'm now running a N/Me SS build that gains an extra 3 EN per second thanks to the nerf. gg ANet, I have yet to get my energy below 10 in Cantha. Great balancing.

I doubt it. They could have limited the number of vhorrors within the skill, the way they limited golem to 1, rather than limiting ALL minions to 10. That really would be a kick in the balls to the prophecies-only owners that were told over and over that they don't need to buy the new chapter to remain competitive.

Yes, I lose the time of opportunity for which I paid. I lose my faith in ANet having the capacity to do the job.

I can comprehend how with body blocking a traditional Prophecies based MM who has 10-20 minions and body blocking on a field could be unreachable by everyone except that Raner with the Poisonous Longbow +15^50 using Conflagration, Read the Wind, and Poison Arrow. Maybe an assassin who can just teleport inside and knife the MM in the back.

When I got Prophecies, it described the Necromancer as someone to raise undead hordes. Ten doth not a horde make. The concept in the sales pitch is gone. Caveat Emptor - they are full of empty words.


Fitz

Well, its a game with support so expect things that "work" to get nerfed

Yes the golem and the vampiric horrors definately make up for it. I'm experimenting with a N/Rit with minions and spirits right now to see how that works out. So far so good.

MMs still dominate 12 vs 12 because:

1- People are noobs and mostly go for single target spike
2- People don't realise the power of the MM till they are being dominated at midfield and losing 5 bases in 15 sec
3- People don't know of what skills can actually counter MMs.

In a 12 vs 12 battle, should there be 2 MMs on one side, the battle is pretty much decided. Even if one dies, quick signet rez + veratas aura would soon fix things. So to all MMs, don't complain, at least PVP wise.

Yes the MM is less effective in PVP, but as long as the 12 vs 12 battles stay like they are, a log of PUGs will be rolled by the MMs

/agreed with hunter

Ten for vampire horrors,yes. Just like the 1 ogre.


I mainly tried my hand at being a MM for the number of horrors and fiends I could have..

I have mixed feelings about this.
I have never played an MM but I have seen on many occasions how crazy they get.
IMO, this change is here to stay and so you guys should stop complaining about it.
As for Prophecies players, deal with it. If you don't have Factions and aren't planning to buy it, what do you expect? Of course you're not going to get the new skills, that's your own fault for not buying it.

The new minions are not "make-ups" for the nerf. The nerf was implemented to balance the game on several levels. The new minions are "rewards" you could say for those who support ANet and GW and bought Factions. This is the same for every other class that is receiving new skills(which all are).

So final thoughts, if you're that upset about a balance change, quit the game.
ANet already has your 50 dollars.

Just because you can't highlight the MM and get to them by hitting space does not mean they are unobtainable. Go around the minions and then slaughter them.

Also, I do recall, actually no. I am reading right now on the original box: Game experience may change during online play.

Agreed.

And you reached this conclusion after 3 days of the FPE? Don't most new powerful builds sweep the PvP maps for a month or so until people learn to fight it?

They pre-emptively nerfed us without giving the community time to adapt.

And 15 doth a horde make? I haven't seen much more than that in regular gameplay.

By the way, if you haven't the confidence that ANet can perform up to standard, why are you still here?

Then you haven't ever grouped with some of the real "artists."

Well maybe i was exaggerating a little, but the Minion Masters were VERY VERY powerful. I agree that this was all too powerful of a nerf. I actually was looking forward to making a proper anti-MM team build, other than smite barrage, or another MM doing a verata tug-of-war.

Looking at most of the post where positive comments were made about the golem and Vamp minons making up for the nerf, please remember that these are faction exclusive skills meaning GWP only MMs are getting the short end of the stick forcing them to buy Factions just to enjoy MMing.

Not trolling here, merely pointing out the facts for a more objective view even though i understand this is off topic from the main title.

Waiting for 12v12, I had customized a Halfmoon. req8, 15^50, Vamp 5-1, Enchant 20%... EXACTLY for the purpose of owning Minion Masters with Barrage + Judge's Insight.
Please guys, let me play a bit with it and don't forget to bring your MM in 12v12.

No the two new minnion types did not make up for the nerf. Vampiric minnionis are underpowered for the casting cost of 25 and Flesh Golem is useful but an elite forcing you to remove OoB if you have not already for other reasons. VS is utterly useless at a recharge of 60 seconds and the 10 minnion cap makes a MM mearly useful instead of nessisary, where bodies are anyway. Honestly though my biggest gripe is with VS. I'm fine with having one Golem and 9 Fiends if only VS was still the same. As it is I'd rather not use it at all.

BotM seems kinda useless to me now as well if you play /mo though I'm looking hard at /Rt so I don't know but anyway you can now have two HA and with OoB out due to the Golem you can put all the points from blood into healing and get around a 130 HA beating the best BotM at 127 with a +1 to death item. I like the change to the minnions spell.

I want to start a petition to revert VS...it wasn't over powered especially with a 10 minnion cap in place...and boost BotM some as well.

My current skill set:

Golem
Fiend
HA
BotM
Karie's Healing Circle = HA
Dark Bond
Infuse Condition
Rebirth

Imho there was no such thing as an overpowered MM prenerf. MM had limited use only. Ever tried it in ring of fire or UW ?
Overpowered is something that would completely rule the game.
The old MM simply was a fun build to play. Anet took that fun away, gj.

Let me ask this: are warriors overpowered because they can solo part of FoW ?
Are rangers overpowered because a barrage team can clear ToPK in less than 50 minutes ?

There you have the next 2 nerfs. Cyclone axe and barrage.
If this trend continues, instead of killing monsters, we will all be hugging trees after the umpteenth nerf due april 2007.
Sim Tyria (Cantha). Way to go.

Actually, I dont see it as a nerf, sure, the limit may be a bit to low, but at least I'm having a lot more fun. Its more chalacing now, you need more team work and you have a more felxible build.
Get a bunch of Vamp horrors and they'll not only fuel you health, but also your BotM, I don't need to be /Mo for Heal Area anymore either.
More options + more challaging = more fun.

And for everyone with 30 ore more horrors + fiends, how many could pull that off when doing something else then low area farming, oro runs or the Zaishen training area?

There's an update I didn't really recognize! Don't play your MM for a week and what happens? Your nicely tweaked build for 30+ Minions no longer works.

* No longer is it possible to maintain that many Minions as they are capped at 10.
* No longer is it possible to keep Verata's Sacrifice up constantly (with help of Glyph of Renewal)

On the other hand, Blood of the Master now reaches all your minions, but at what cost? 25% sacrificed for only 10 Minions? How are you supposed to keep them alive and not die yourself?

And as others pointed out already: the question is not if the new Minions make up for this change, but if you are still able to run an effective MM with Prophecies only skills

Well, at last a "skill update" hit me like so many other updates before hit the other professions as well. I'll play with that a bit when I got some chars through Factions, but I still don't see the reasoning behind these massive changes. Minions are dumb, it is so easy to mass-kill them. So don't complain about how overpowered MMs were. They are no more overpowered than an IWAY Team ever was - and these never were.

The only challenge is that MM isn't as effective as it once was. As far as playing MM itself it has actually become as bad as playing bonder in a gear party...I can read forums and get 1.2k Kurzick faction with my MM at the same time...meh.

Vamps are way to expensive and the health compesation isn't worth beans to a /mo or /rt...it would be useful for those doubling up on VS but now VS is useless so what's the point of playing anything but /mo or /rt. I mean really casting VS twice still leaves 40 seconds of no VS up and hence leaving little reason to use VS at all, doubled up or otherwise.

The BotM Vamp minnion combo is nice in theory but in competitive play not all that usefull...Flesh Golem + 9 Fiends are much more effective...remember now you need to pack as much power into those 10 slots. Vamp minnions would have been great under the old MM system even as far as making /mez or /ele a nice option...A.net needs to think about that 10 minnion limit...maybe raise it to 20 or at least fix VS.

I've had 30+ minnions going in Thirsty River with 2 crappy henchmen...once the MM gets' going...3-4 minnions getting to +30 is easy if you can manage the skills correctly and there in lied the skill...which we no longer need...gj A.net.

Btw that training area rocked...more like 80+ minnions and one catapult..

you could do what /ele have always done and depend on your monks...or just switch to /mo.


/mo just became >>>> /ele or /mez...at least obviously now

I disagree, but that's just my opinion.
I never leveled up as easy as with my MM (which still works). I've seen good MMs rush through crowded areas (before and after the patch) like a hot knife through warm butter, and all the group could do was trying to keep up... Without the MM, speed slowed down considerately...

MM doesn't work anywhere, but which build does?
I like the limit - more free corpses make room for other uses or a second MM.

I don't have a clue what you are trying to say.

i played an MM quite often before the nerf, i haven't had time to play outside of the preview cause my copy of factions hasn't shipped yet. but i was never able to rush through crowded areas, even with bloodstained boots, faster cast on death magic spells, faster recharge, i still found myself lacking behind to res mission from all the corpses, while allmost everyone else would just rush in, and rush out while i was still making minions

I dont think the nerf was bad on the Cantha side. I do think that it is bad for Tyrian MMs who dont have the new spells. I dont think the MM change was made for 12 vs 12 either. I think it was made for the excess of BP groups. I ve added Wells where there is a large group of bodies also. Wells seem to be most useful running Vis Square and such.

Verata's sacrifice was a great skill before they screwed it up however I'm looking at some of the ritualist restores and I'm thinking that a few of the spirits coupled with BotM would more than make up for the loss of veratas usefulness. Vampiric horrors are kind of disappointing but if you maintain them well then you get a lot more mileage for your energy cost and that translates to nice minions. If you can get a good group of these things up you can spam BotM almost endlessly as long as things keep dieing. I recomend spirits for the fodder for soul reaping as well because they give bonuses when they die. The best ones are the ones that reduce damage by taking a portion of it themselves. They are usually low cost and fast cooldown and you can put two of them up at once to make your minions tank better their death will give nice energy while you just sit back and regen and spam BotM. Bloodsong also helps mitigate the life loss caused by spamming BotM in this way. I'm finding the ritualist to be a very handy secondary but a not so great primary. Flesh Golem is well worth the elite slot. These things can do some god awful damage and when coupled with the protection spirits like Union and Shelter they are practically unstoppable. I've also eterined that the N/Rit MM type is definately best in protracted battles where the strategic placement of spirits can allow you to dominate a more or less stationary battlefield. I can definately see this build type used in alliance missions where you have to defend control points. One of these guys with a good eye for where to place his spirits and that can maintain his minions would be almost unassailable.Flesh Golem, Vampiric horrors, Dissonance, Bloodsong, Shadowsong, BotM, Shelter and union would be my choice just off the top of my head. Basically you could escort him to a control point, wait for an attack let him get mions up and just leave him there. Dissonance shuts down casters with an eerie ease. Shadowsong stops warriors and rangers dead and with your minions and bloodsong up you should hardly take any significant damage.

So while spending a few hours casting Rit spirits, to save your minions, your minions all die because
1. You can't do shit to keep them alive anymore
2. 10 minions max, so losing 5 per battle is quite a big loss.