Dual v Penetrating
Isileth
In almost all the build i look at i see dual shot being used as the main dmg dealer. In my experience penetrating does a lot more dmg. I often hit for 40-60 with penetrating where i would only hit 20-30 in total with dual. I can understand that extra damage is doubled because its 2 arrows but the higher the AL the more penetrating outshines dual to a point i would think where even with a few dmg boosts it would still win.
Schorny
if you run read the wind and a vampiric bow, dual shot is better than penetrating - because you get 14 bonus damage per arrow (9 from read the wind and 5 from vamp). that quickly sums up...
and don't forget: these 14 damage are armor neutral, which means even on a 200 armor target you'll get this 14 damage per arrow...
if you don't run read the wind or vampiric bows, penetrating might be better. and marauder also needs to be looked at - though i hadn't had time yet to calculate damage for marauders...
and don't forget: these 14 damage are armor neutral, which means even on a 200 armor target you'll get this 14 damage per arrow...
if you don't run read the wind or vampiric bows, penetrating might be better. and marauder also needs to be looked at - though i hadn't had time yet to calculate damage for marauders...
cheetum
actually RtW is up to 10 damage, 15 per arrow or 30 total armor-ignoring damage. FW (favorable winds) adds another 6 per arrow. Kindle arrows is even more then RtW (up to 25 per arrow if Wilderness attribute maxed out with sup rune, but somewhere around 20 is more reasonable). elementalist secondaries can add conjure flame for quite a bit more stacked on to the kindle.
FW(6) + kindle(20) + conjure flame(10) + vampiric bow string(5) = +82 armor ignoring damage per dual shot, +41 per quickshot [e], normal shot, or needle shot while dual is recharging. 4-5 rangers running this build and u have a pretty deadly spike team
some even prefer zealous over vamp since this is a fairly heavy energy drain especially since you really dont have many points to spare for expertise. with zealous its a bit less damage but u can deal it for a longer sustained duration.
FW(6) + kindle(20) + conjure flame(10) + vampiric bow string(5) = +82 armor ignoring damage per dual shot, +41 per quickshot [e], normal shot, or needle shot while dual is recharging. 4-5 rangers running this build and u have a pretty deadly spike team
some even prefer zealous over vamp since this is a fairly heavy energy drain especially since you really dont have many points to spare for expertise. with zealous its a bit less damage but u can deal it for a longer sustained duration.
Isileth
Yeah i can deffinately see how thats better. I would pick zealous over vampiric myself because 10dmg isnt that great compared to being able to keep constant high dmg.
Huntmaster
Yeah, thats pretty much it.
Dual = Vamp bow.
Power/Pen = Other bow.
Dual = Vamp bow.
Power/Pen = Other bow.
Nehsher TalonStrike
I still prefer adding ignite instead of kindle to my dual shots, yeah the damage is less but if the mobs are crowding you get to share some of the love, also if you mis your target he still recieves fire damage from the area of effect
cheetum
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nehsher TalonStrike
I still prefer adding ignite instead of kindle to my dual shots, yeah the damage is less but if the mobs are crowding you get to share some of the love, also if you mis your target he still recieves fire damage from the area of effect
well the heavy conjure/kindle/dualshot damage stack is mainly used in PVP spike teams where enemies dont generally bunch together and your main objective is to focus as much damage on one target as possible. for PVE ignite is good BUT unlike kindle it does not trigger the conjure flame bonus unless your weapon has a fiery bow string instead of the recommended vamp or zealous.
which brings up an interesting new skill brutal weapon. since it does not work with other enchants it cant stack with conjure flame, however a benefit of using this instead (other then that it works with ignite) is that it can be cast on someone else which means only one ritualist on your team needs to bring it. if u decide to go this route be sure others in your group know not to cast enchants on any BW rangers as it will nullify the bonus. some rangers may decide to go rit secondary for this skill as well as guided weapon in the same attribute line. it does not stack but a good alternative against those pesky foes that use those annoying block/evade stances. the damage might be less but its better then doing no damage at all
(edit: oh and guided weapon still hits if u are blinded too!)
which brings up an interesting new skill brutal weapon. since it does not work with other enchants it cant stack with conjure flame, however a benefit of using this instead (other then that it works with ignite) is that it can be cast on someone else which means only one ritualist on your team needs to bring it. if u decide to go this route be sure others in your group know not to cast enchants on any BW rangers as it will nullify the bonus. some rangers may decide to go rit secondary for this skill as well as guided weapon in the same attribute line. it does not stack but a good alternative against those pesky foes that use those annoying block/evade stances. the damage might be less but its better then doing no damage at all
(edit: oh and guided weapon still hits if u are blinded too!)
Nehsher TalonStrike
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheetum
well the heavy conjure/kindle/dualshot damage stack is mainly used in PVP spike teams where enemies dont generally bunch together and your main objective is to focus as much damage on one target as possible. for PVE ignite is good BUT unlike kindle it does not trigger the conjure flame bonus unless your weapon has a fiery bow string instead of the recommended vamp or zealous.
ok i did not know that but as i said before you miss they burn,so instead of no damage they still get some fire dmg...not sure if it works with evade I must check it out.
ok i did not know that but as i said before you miss they burn,so instead of no damage they still get some fire dmg...not sure if it works with evade I must check it out.
kagunster
lots of people are runnig seeking aroows now in pvp, so the sundering usually works better there
Iskrah
Quote:
Originally Posted by kagunster
lots of people are runnig seeking aroows now in pvp, so the sundering usually works better there
I doubt "lots of people" do that. Haven't seen any for the matter. Maybe you do?
K.Ichigo
Maybe people who HAVE the skill do? Most people haven't bothered to acquire Seeking Arrows yet.
And is the fire damage from Kindle/Conjure really armour-ignoring?
And is the fire damage from Kindle/Conjure really armour-ignoring?
Shadow-Hunter
It isent possible to run Conjure along with a Vamp bow, as Conjure needs an Fiery weap for example.. ? or does the Kindle arrows make the Conjure trigger?
~Shadow
~Shadow
Orange Milk
So your saying, when the battle starts spend awhile ( 8 to 10 secs) casting 3 0r 4 spirits and prepartations, while eating away at your energy, so your 7 sec reset dual shot can acctully do some damage. get 2 duals off before the preps are gone, then recast all those and go again, in the meantime, mind you, make sure you never get interupted while dropping 3 or 4 spirits and preps, and be sure sure to take no damage so u will survive long enough to get of enough dual shot arrows.
OR
Get a Horn or Shadow bow (10% armor pen) ad a 20/20 string and fire away with Penitrating Attack and Sundering attack. they reset fastenough that just about every shot u fire is loaded up with 30% to 50% armor pen and you have plenty of energy as well with your expertise set right.
Gee what should I choose, Tons of preps and interuptions or simple point and click of 2 skills?
OR
Get a Horn or Shadow bow (10% armor pen) ad a 20/20 string and fire away with Penitrating Attack and Sundering attack. they reset fastenough that just about every shot u fire is loaded up with 30% to 50% armor pen and you have plenty of energy as well with your expertise set right.
Gee what should I choose, Tons of preps and interuptions or simple point and click of 2 skills?
SnipiousMax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow-Hunter
It isent possible to run Conjure along with a Vamp bow, as Conjure needs an Fiery weap for example.. ? or does the Kindle arrows make the Conjure trigger?
~Shadow Kindle makes your damage type fire.
~Shadow Kindle makes your damage type fire.
Cecil The Magician
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange Milk
So your saying, when the battle starts spend awhile ( 8 to 10 secs) casting 3 0r 4 spirits and prepartations, while eating away at your energy, so your 7 sec reset dual shot can acctully do some damage. get 2 duals off before the preps are gone, then recast all those and go again, in the meantime, mind you, make sure you never get interupted while dropping 3 or 4 spirits and preps, and be sure sure to take no damage so u will survive long enough to get of enough dual shot arrows.
OR
Get a Horn or Shadow bow (10% armor pen) ad a 20/20 string and fire away with Penitrating Attack and Sundering attack. they reset fastenough that just about every shot u fire is loaded up with 30% to 50% armor pen and you have plenty of energy as well with your expertise set right.
Gee what should I choose, Tons of preps and interuptions or simple point and click of 2 skills? Simplicity is great is it not?
I prefer using something like this now that there is a duplicate Penetrating Attack. This means also that another prep, like Apply Poison can be used in place of Kindle or Read The Wind, for degen pressure.
OR
Get a Horn or Shadow bow (10% armor pen) ad a 20/20 string and fire away with Penitrating Attack and Sundering attack. they reset fastenough that just about every shot u fire is loaded up with 30% to 50% armor pen and you have plenty of energy as well with your expertise set right.
Gee what should I choose, Tons of preps and interuptions or simple point and click of 2 skills? Simplicity is great is it not?
I prefer using something like this now that there is a duplicate Penetrating Attack. This means also that another prep, like Apply Poison can be used in place of Kindle or Read The Wind, for degen pressure.
Yakumo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange Milk
Get a Horn or Shadow bow (10% armor pen) ad a 20/20 string and fire away with Penitrating Attack and Sundering attack. they reset fastenough that just about every shot u fire is loaded up with 30% to 50% armor pen and you have plenty of energy as well with your expertise set right.
Read on guildwiki that armor penetration on hornbows do not stack with Penetrating Attack. As both are base armor penetration, only the highest is used.
A Sundering string gives bonus armor penetration (+20% AP) and this will stack with either the hornbow or Penetrating Attack.
With that in mind, a 20/20 Sundering hornbow should give:
10% - 30% AP with a normal shot (10% AP from hornbow used).
20% - 40% AP with Penetrating Attack (10% AP from hornbow ignored as it's the lowest base AP).
A Sundering string gives bonus armor penetration (+20% AP) and this will stack with either the hornbow or Penetrating Attack.
With that in mind, a 20/20 Sundering hornbow should give:
10% - 30% AP with a normal shot (10% AP from hornbow used).
20% - 40% AP with Penetrating Attack (10% AP from hornbow ignored as it's the lowest base AP).
Orange Milk
Say what u will, but I ve never done 174 dmg to a Afflicted warrior with that Dual Shot on steriods idea there. but I have with The Sundering Shadow Bow and penitrating attack. (sure I got him in the back, but hey, his back was to me)
Also If u really wanna spend half the battle casting stuff, just go R/Mo and cast Judges Insight on yourself and sunder away.
Also If u really wanna spend half the battle casting stuff, just go R/Mo and cast Judges Insight on yourself and sunder away.
Iskrah
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange Milk
Say what u will, but I ve never done 174 dmg to a Afflicted warrior with that Dual Shot on steriods idea there. but I have with The Sundering Shadow Bow and penitrating attack. (sure I got him in the back, but hey, his back was to me)
Also If u really wanna spend half the battle casting stuff, just go R/Mo and cast Judges Insight on yourself and sunder away. Actually Judge's Insight doesn't last very long (I think it's 14 seconds with 8 in Smite, 16.66 seconds with 20% enchant, which is alright but my point is that it's no different).
Got a screenshot for that 174 dmg with JI, Sundering string and penetrating attack all at the same time on that mob? Which happens once every 5 times you have a critical (which itself happens every 5 times at best)? I haven't made the math, seems like a pretty big number that should be calculated, but I'm just saying it's not enough of a proof for your build to be the best.
Basically you're saying that the best setting is the one-hit wonder, not taking into consideration odds of the statistical "anomaly", peak. But I'd say that most people would take consistency over one-hit wonders. That's why your setting is neither the most efficient or the best energy-wise (certainly not). It's good enough to be of some use in PvE, it's not random, but we're discussing why people are stacking up different options to make their damage optimum.
By the way, I haven't read anywhere neither have I experienced that hitting someone in the back was helping in GW. By I'll assume you were kidding.
You seem a bit monomaniac about Armor Penetration. I'm 99% sure you were using 10/10 sundering strings before.
Also If u really wanna spend half the battle casting stuff, just go R/Mo and cast Judges Insight on yourself and sunder away. Actually Judge's Insight doesn't last very long (I think it's 14 seconds with 8 in Smite, 16.66 seconds with 20% enchant, which is alright but my point is that it's no different).
Got a screenshot for that 174 dmg with JI, Sundering string and penetrating attack all at the same time on that mob? Which happens once every 5 times you have a critical (which itself happens every 5 times at best)? I haven't made the math, seems like a pretty big number that should be calculated, but I'm just saying it's not enough of a proof for your build to be the best.
Basically you're saying that the best setting is the one-hit wonder, not taking into consideration odds of the statistical "anomaly", peak. But I'd say that most people would take consistency over one-hit wonders. That's why your setting is neither the most efficient or the best energy-wise (certainly not). It's good enough to be of some use in PvE, it's not random, but we're discussing why people are stacking up different options to make their damage optimum.
By the way, I haven't read anywhere neither have I experienced that hitting someone in the back was helping in GW. By I'll assume you were kidding.
You seem a bit monomaniac about Armor Penetration. I'm 99% sure you were using 10/10 sundering strings before.
mighty xxl
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheetum
actually RtW is up to 10 damage, 15 per arrow or 30 total armor-ignoring damage. FW (favorable winds) adds another 6 per arrow. Kindle arrows is even more then RtW (up to 25 per arrow if Wilderness attribute maxed out with sup rune, but somewhere around 20 is more reasonable). elementalist secondaries can add conjure flame for quite a bit more stacked on to the kindle.
FW(6) + kindle(20) + conjure flame(10) + vampiric bow string(5) = +82 armor ignoring damage per dual shot, +41 per quickshot [e], normal shot, or needle shot while dual is recharging. 4-5 rangers running this build and u have a pretty deadly spike team
some even prefer zealous over vamp since this is a fairly heavy energy drain especially since you really dont have many points to spare for expertise. with zealous its a bit less damage but u can deal it for a longer sustained duration. That make me laugh so hard
+82 armor ignoring damage lol
Reason: Kindle and Conjure do fire damage. Higher armor means less damage. Try that combo on a ranger and u shall see that u will not get +82 dmg armor ignoring. Not to mention if u find one with drakescale armor
FW(6) + kindle(20) + conjure flame(10) + vampiric bow string(5) = +82 armor ignoring damage per dual shot, +41 per quickshot [e], normal shot, or needle shot while dual is recharging. 4-5 rangers running this build and u have a pretty deadly spike team
some even prefer zealous over vamp since this is a fairly heavy energy drain especially since you really dont have many points to spare for expertise. with zealous its a bit less damage but u can deal it for a longer sustained duration. That make me laugh so hard
+82 armor ignoring damage lol
Reason: Kindle and Conjure do fire damage. Higher armor means less damage. Try that combo on a ranger and u shall see that u will not get +82 dmg armor ignoring. Not to mention if u find one with drakescale armor
SnipiousMax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iskrah
By the way, I haven't read anywhere neither have I experienced that hitting someone in the back was helping in GW. By I'll assume you were kidding.
Hitting in the back scores a critical hit. That's why you don't turn tail and run from Eviscerate Spikers.
Things like Elevation also affect damage....but its kinda fickle and hard to test and come up with a definate amount....
Hitting in the back scores a critical hit. That's why you don't turn tail and run from Eviscerate Spikers.
Things like Elevation also affect damage....but its kinda fickle and hard to test and come up with a definate amount....
Iskrah
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
Hitting in the back scores a critical hit. That's why you don't turn tail and run from Eviscerate Spikers.
Things like Elevation also affect damage....but its kinda fickle and hard to test and come up with a definate amount.... I knew about elevation but thank you for the information on hitting in the back. I'll learn a new thing every day here
Things like Elevation also affect damage....but its kinda fickle and hard to test and come up with a definate amount.... I knew about elevation but thank you for the information on hitting in the back. I'll learn a new thing every day here
zeno
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange Milk
Say what u will, but I ve never done 174 dmg to a Afflicted warrior with that Dual Shot on steriods idea there. but I have with The Sundering Shadow Bow and penitrating attack. (sure I got him in the back, but hey, his back was to me)
Also If u really wanna spend half the battle casting stuff, just go R/Mo and cast Judges Insight on yourself and sunder away. What level was the afflicted? And what was its armor(if it dropped)?
imo, basing one shot dmg with pve mobs is not a very good idea. It's easy to say that I have done 230+ dmg with dual shot against pve mobs in core campaign areas, because I have. Instead, go test your theory against the armored dummy in Isle of the Nameless.
I did a little test of my own:
First Round:
My main target was the 60AL wood dummy, since that's caster armor, and they're usually what rangers should target in pvp. Using the combo you described, I used RtW, then Penetrating Attack with a 20/19 Sundering Shadow Bow. Marksmanship 16 of course. On a regular hit, I did about 80-90 dmg per Penetrating Attack.
Second Round:
Main target was the 60AL wood dummy again. I reallocated some points from marks+expertise and pumped Fire Mastery to 10. Then, using a Vampric +5/-1 Shadow Bow, I used Conjure Flame -> Kindle Arrows -> Dual Shot. Guess how much dmg I did on a normal shot?
( 30(base dmg) + 18(Kindle) + 10(Conjure) + 5(Vamp) ) * 2 = ~125 dmg
Notice I didn't use spirits at all, and it's not difficult to keep Conjure + Kindle up at all times. With that kind of damage, I can take out a caster with 4 dual shots. Of course in a real situation a caster wouldn't stand there and take 4 dual shots. However, with a spike ranger, the combo is usually Dual -> Quick/Punishing -> Savage. Which means not only does Duel Shot get the +dmg benefits, but the following 2 shots as well. Not to mention, since the spike comes from many sources of small damage, anti-spike protective spirit won't do jack. Furthermore, if you're in spiked-oriented 8v8 team, you'll likely have a order necro on the team, and dual-shot quickly escalates up to amazing damage.
Believe what you want about how base AP stacks, it's your own loss and I'm in no mood to argue. Dual Shot is quite superior in terms of dealing damage, otherwise everyone wouldn't be using it in their builds. If you can't get your dual shot to outdmg your PA, then it's your own fault for not using it correctly.
Also If u really wanna spend half the battle casting stuff, just go R/Mo and cast Judges Insight on yourself and sunder away. What level was the afflicted? And what was its armor(if it dropped)?
imo, basing one shot dmg with pve mobs is not a very good idea. It's easy to say that I have done 230+ dmg with dual shot against pve mobs in core campaign areas, because I have. Instead, go test your theory against the armored dummy in Isle of the Nameless.
I did a little test of my own:
First Round:
My main target was the 60AL wood dummy, since that's caster armor, and they're usually what rangers should target in pvp. Using the combo you described, I used RtW, then Penetrating Attack with a 20/19 Sundering Shadow Bow. Marksmanship 16 of course. On a regular hit, I did about 80-90 dmg per Penetrating Attack.
Second Round:
Main target was the 60AL wood dummy again. I reallocated some points from marks+expertise and pumped Fire Mastery to 10. Then, using a Vampric +5/-1 Shadow Bow, I used Conjure Flame -> Kindle Arrows -> Dual Shot. Guess how much dmg I did on a normal shot?
( 30(base dmg) + 18(Kindle) + 10(Conjure) + 5(Vamp) ) * 2 = ~125 dmg
Notice I didn't use spirits at all, and it's not difficult to keep Conjure + Kindle up at all times. With that kind of damage, I can take out a caster with 4 dual shots. Of course in a real situation a caster wouldn't stand there and take 4 dual shots. However, with a spike ranger, the combo is usually Dual -> Quick/Punishing -> Savage. Which means not only does Duel Shot get the +dmg benefits, but the following 2 shots as well. Not to mention, since the spike comes from many sources of small damage, anti-spike protective spirit won't do jack. Furthermore, if you're in spiked-oriented 8v8 team, you'll likely have a order necro on the team, and dual-shot quickly escalates up to amazing damage.
Believe what you want about how base AP stacks, it's your own loss and I'm in no mood to argue. Dual Shot is quite superior in terms of dealing damage, otherwise everyone wouldn't be using it in their builds. If you can't get your dual shot to outdmg your PA, then it's your own fault for not using it correctly.
Orange Milk
First off, you missed the point some. See my previous post about having to datnd around awile casting and getting iterupted BEFORE u evn get to fire a Daul shot.
Second, I use a 14^50 20/20 customized shadow bow, it will do 35% more dmg than the bow u tested.
third, im fireing a penitrating/sundering shot every three secs, you will fire a Daul every 7.
Go back do ur math figure out "How fast Damage will escalate" while u stand around for 7 secs and then stop to relaod preps and spirits and what not while I'm fireing away with my 2 skills every 3 tops.
Also I have alot more room in my skill bar for waht ever I want since I dont need to carry 3 skills to pump up my Daul shot skills, yes suck up 4 spots for skill. I'll use 2 to compliment my bow
Also, nope never had a 10/10
Second, I use a 14^50 20/20 customized shadow bow, it will do 35% more dmg than the bow u tested.
third, im fireing a penitrating/sundering shot every three secs, you will fire a Daul every 7.
Go back do ur math figure out "How fast Damage will escalate" while u stand around for 7 secs and then stop to relaod preps and spirits and what not while I'm fireing away with my 2 skills every 3 tops.
Also I have alot more room in my skill bar for waht ever I want since I dont need to carry 3 skills to pump up my Daul shot skills, yes suck up 4 spots for skill. I'll use 2 to compliment my bow
Also, nope never had a 10/10
zeno
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange Milk
Quote: Originally Posted by Orange Milk Second, I use a 14^50 20/20 customized shadow bow, it will do 35% more dmg than the bow u tested. I am using a 15^50 customized shadow bow, something that should be obvious. Why don't you head over to Isle of the Nameless and explain to the wooden dummy how you consistantly normal-hit for ~125hp with your bow that does "35% more dmg"?
Quote: Originally Posted by Orange Milk third, im fireing a penitrating/sundering shot every three secs, you will fire a Daul every 7. looks like you don't understand the concept of spiking, go read my post again. Or learn what spiking means through other means.
Quote: Originally Posted by Orange Milk
Go back do ur math figure out "How fast Damage will escalate" while u stand around for 7 secs and then stop to relaod preps and spirits and what not while I'm fireing away with my 2 skills every 3 tops.
I went back to my math, and it still works out. And no I don't stand around. What kind of idiot fires off one shot and then stop to renew the enchants/preparations that are already up? After I pull off my spike combo, guess what else I can do as a ranger? Snare, interrupt, poison, run, ect. And when the team needs it again, I can dish out 125 dmg + 2 interrupts in under 1 second. As for reload preps and spirits, read first part of this post.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Orange Milk
Also I have alot more room in my skill bar for waht ever I want since I dont need to carry 3 skills to pump up my Daul shot skills, yes suck up 4 spots for skill. I'll use 2 to compliment my bow
I don't know how you came up 3 skills to pump Duel Shot. I clearly stated Conjure Flame + Kindle Arrows. Don't know about you, but I've been able to count to 2 since I was 2 years old. Assuming that you mistyped and meant to say "2 skills to pump up duel shot", that's not a big sacrifice for specialization at all. I can drop those 2 and "add whatever I want", but then I'd be a jack of all trades, master of none. As of right now, I am as good as a ranger can be at spiking, and very effective at interrupting + kiting. As such, I am a valuable addition to my team. With your 2 bow skill, what can you do better than other specialized rangers while depending on that myriad array of 6 skills that doesn't work with your weapon? Quote:
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