Arenanet, I'm gonna give you 10 seconds to think about why you nerfed old school Natures Renewal.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
You skipped the line, think for 8 more seconds...
You nerfed NR because it removed all enchantments from everyone on the map, right? too broken?
Order of Apostacy - 25, 2, 0
For 5 seconds, enemy enchantments don't matter.
EVERY defense that good builds had against IWAY just went down the toilet because of this rediculously powerful spell.
In addition, ranger spike has become increasingly powerful (pi's 21 consecutive wins the other day was aided with OOA). We could kill a ghostly hero on an altar without worrying about what enchantments were on it, because of our 2 second elite profane that doesnt need a corpse.
My suggestion - do one or more of the following things to OOA:
Make it only trigger once per player - like Dark Fury does.
Add recharge time (20-30 seconds?)
Give it the same nerf that you gave to Order of the Vampire.
This skill is the new old school NR as it is right now
Order of Apostacy
shardfenix
Zui
/signed
Great idea for a skill, but in it's current form it's just way too powerful.
Great idea for a skill, but in it's current form it's just way too powerful.
Terra Xin
/signed
Yeah, when you think of it that way, the penalties don't outweigh the benefits. Fine tuning this spell would be nice.
Yeah, when you think of it that way, the penalties don't outweigh the benefits. Fine tuning this spell would be nice.
Duke Slytalker
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Terra Xin
/signed
Yeah, when you think of it that way, the penalties don't outweigh the benefits. Fine tuning this spell would be nice. |
shardfenix
True, but the point of elite skills is not to completely destroy EVERY other build out there.
Apostacy as it is can destroy any build, since every build uses enchantments. This skill kills aegis, bonders, seed, hands, pretty much any type of defensive spell in the game. This is NR all over again, and it needs a huge nerf, it is being way too abused right now.
Apostacy as it is can destroy any build, since every build uses enchantments. This skill kills aegis, bonders, seed, hands, pretty much any type of defensive spell in the game. This is NR all over again, and it needs a huge nerf, it is being way too abused right now.
MelechRic
Maybe make the sacrifice a lot bigger. Start it at 50% and go to 25% with max points in blood.
It should be like a nuke, but not an unlimitted nuke.
It should be like a nuke, but not an unlimitted nuke.
Navaros
They should leave it as it is.
They already wayyyy over-nerfed IWAY and the Warrior class.
No need for them to continue to over-nerf every single good skill that comes out.
Anet, stop nerfing, please.
Apostacy is fine as is.
They already wayyyy over-nerfed IWAY and the Warrior class.
No need for them to continue to over-nerf every single good skill that comes out.
Anet, stop nerfing, please.
Apostacy is fine as is.
Guardian of the Light
Well guys considering we haven't even seen this skill in action on an IWAY team I suggest we wait a moment before deciding to nerf it.
Remember its 25 energy cost, is in Curses instead of Blood and sacs health each time you remove an enchantment you sac health even at max thats 12% which doesn't take long with 4 IWAY warriors with tiger's to kill you.
In other words don't nerf something until you know its overpowered.
Remember its 25 energy cost, is in Curses instead of Blood and sacs health each time you remove an enchantment you sac health even at max thats 12% which doesn't take long with 4 IWAY warriors with tiger's to kill you.
In other words don't nerf something until you know its overpowered.
Hella Good
OK... this is ridiculous. OoA is very costly to maintain. 25 nrg and 14% life sac per chant removed... do you realize how heavy that is? Mind, you this is with 16 in Curses. And the whole IWAY thing... I hate IWAY BUT I don't think it's anyhow broken or that OoA has suddenly made it horribly broken again. People stack chants vs IWAY... going on the defense is never a good strategy.
Take out key elements of the build, go hex heavy on the warriors, don't kill the pets, have good corpse control- these are all good strategies to employ. Oh no, Aegis is gone...
Gee, what's Ward vs Melee and Ward vs Foes? It gets me angry to see people complain about a build when they do NOTHING to counter it... 
Again, I do not play IWAY, I do not like IWAY, but I do not feel IWAY, and esp. OoA is anyhow broken.
I mean seriously, with Factions chants can be easily removed through so many skills. There is nothing wrong with a Necro being pro in this. In fact Necros were right from the start supposed to be the anti-Monk class but they never really were. Now Boon Prot actually requires some skill to pull. Big deal, get over it!
EDIT: Forgot to mention OoA is a double edged sword. Yes, it does remove proto chants and bonds but it also removes OTHER ORDER SPELLS WITH NO SAC. OoA can remove OoA, OoP, OoV- do you realize how damaging this can be vs a build that counts on those orders to significantly boost their damage? (IWAY, Ranger spike)
Take out key elements of the build, go hex heavy on the warriors, don't kill the pets, have good corpse control- these are all good strategies to employ. Oh no, Aegis is gone...
Gee, what's Ward vs Melee and Ward vs Foes? It gets me angry to see people complain about a build when they do NOTHING to counter it... Again, I do not play IWAY, I do not like IWAY, but I do not feel IWAY, and esp. OoA is anyhow broken. I mean seriously, with Factions chants can be easily removed through so many skills. There is nothing wrong with a Necro being pro in this. In fact Necros were right from the start supposed to be the anti-Monk class but they never really were. Now Boon Prot actually requires some skill to pull. Big deal, get over it!
EDIT: Forgot to mention OoA is a double edged sword. Yes, it does remove proto chants and bonds but it also removes OTHER ORDER SPELLS WITH NO SAC. OoA can remove OoA, OoP, OoV- do you realize how damaging this can be vs a build that counts on those orders to significantly boost their damage? (IWAY, Ranger spike)
MoldyRiceFrenzy
yep very true
/sign
/sign
Rion
IWAY is fine anyway. If your team is set up well you shouldn't have a problem with it.
OoA costs 25 energy to cast. For 5 seconds! For a Necromancer!
Hella Good pretty much said all I have to say.
Drop the god damn nerf stick.
OoA costs 25 energy to cast. For 5 seconds! For a Necromancer!
Hella Good pretty much said all I have to say.
Drop the god damn nerf stick.
natus
/notsigned
the skill itself may seem to powerful, but as someone said above, it's a dual edged sword, it cancels the effect of other orders and nec enchants, it pretty much kills the necro if too many enchants are removed.
but but but, if your enchants don't work, there's always rit spirits...ok maybe not because they would not fit into your build or they would be killed..
the skill itself may seem to powerful, but as someone said above, it's a dual edged sword, it cancels the effect of other orders and nec enchants, it pretty much kills the necro if too many enchants are removed.
but but but, if your enchants don't work, there's always rit spirits...ok maybe not because they would not fit into your build or they would be killed..
Zui
Umm, it doens't negate any other necromancer enchantments except Order of the Vampire(on allies). Which is also an elite skill, and is also totaly negated by ANY other necromancer enchantments.
The point about it removing Order of Pain is totaly false, unless of course the poster was refering to Order of Pain being removed on foes. And of course it removing enchantments on foes is the exact reason this is skill is extremely powerful.
The point about it removing Order of Pain is totaly false, unless of course the poster was refering to Order of Pain being removed on foes. And of course it removing enchantments on foes is the exact reason this is skill is extremely powerful.
art_
nerf plz.
Vaga
It doesn't need nerfing...
Casting it one time, takes 50% of an average necromancers energy, and then 12% of their health per hit.
If your build relys completely on enchantments then it is probably a gimmick like Blood spike anyway.
It's good that you can't just put 20 enchanments on the ghostly and make him invincable.
Casting it one time, takes 50% of an average necromancers energy, and then 12% of their health per hit.
If your build relys completely on enchantments then it is probably a gimmick like Blood spike anyway.
It's good that you can't just put 20 enchanments on the ghostly and make him invincable.
Bahumhat
Yes, it seems powerful, but it doesnt. If you are not running a FC curses mes, or a curses nec. It will take huge amounts of your health away. 25% per enchantment is alot. So its either risk dieing, or still saccing alotta health.
I vote for it not to be changed.
I vote for it not to be changed.
Manda Panda
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Navaros
They already wayyyy over-nerfed IWAY and the Warrior class.
|
Are you serious? Every skill update they buff the crap out of warriors. There have been nerfs, but compared to the buffs they're almost negligible.
Aera
25 is nothing for a necro, it has soulreaping remember? They have spirits remember? They have pets remember? Everytime one of those spirits or pets die he gains another 9 or 10 energy, so the 25 energy is NOTHING.
Now, how about changing the spell like this:
Order of Apostacy:
For 5 seconds, whenever any party member hits a foe with physical attack, he removes an enchantment that way. When Order of Apostacy ends, you lose 15% max health for every enchantment removed that way.
That way, he won't be able to get healed by the other necro in the meanwhile, he just gets all the damage at once. Thoughts? Comments?
Now, how about changing the spell like this:
Order of Apostacy:
For 5 seconds, whenever any party member hits a foe with physical attack, he removes an enchantment that way. When Order of Apostacy ends, you lose 15% max health for every enchantment removed that way.
That way, he won't be able to get healed by the other necro in the meanwhile, he just gets all the damage at once. Thoughts? Comments?
Cirian
25 energy is only "nothing" if bodies are dropping like flies. This is a seriously high maintainance spell. The maintainance looks prohibitive, but it does look ideal for spiking where 5s is enough.
Evilsod
Ok so it costs 25 energy... How often does it take for Ranger Spike to kill a target? Erm... 3/4 of a second between Dual Shot and Punishing Shot.
So you regen about 7-10 energy between spikes and of course, gain energy from SOUL REAPING! 25 energy means nothing when the target drops dead after having no protection at all leaving you with a net loss of 5-10 energy.
That spell just seems so overpowered its utterly stupid.
/signed
So you regen about 7-10 energy between spikes and of course, gain energy from SOUL REAPING! 25 energy means nothing when the target drops dead after having no protection at all leaving you with a net loss of 5-10 energy.
That spell just seems so overpowered its utterly stupid.
/signed
A User Name
/not signed
Ok if you are casting this spell you are basically forcing your monk to heal you cause otherwise that necro is going to die. In ranger spikes case remeber not all spikes are successful meaning you arent going to get any benfit from soul reaping in most spikes. So with a 25 energy cost that prevents it really from being spammable and without healing say goodbye to that necro. Also the 2 second cast time sorta says "Hey look im casting OoA we gonna spike you." or "Hey look you can interupt me," because with the 25 energy cost you arent really gonna cast it unless you area planning a spike or simply removing enchants. Either way you can see what gonna happen and prepare for it. Honestly most builds should have interupts cause a 2 sec cast time is pretty big, if the casting time was shorter than 2 secs i agree it should be nerfed but seeing as it is not.... The spell is not overpowered.
Aera your idea would basically cause the necro to die everytime he casts it. This would cause it to go on the trash pile of skills most likely, since the result is a dead necro. Also if it became that i dont believe it would be an elite anymore just my opinion. But good suggestion even though i think it is unnecessary nerf.
Ok if you are casting this spell you are basically forcing your monk to heal you cause otherwise that necro is going to die. In ranger spikes case remeber not all spikes are successful meaning you arent going to get any benfit from soul reaping in most spikes. So with a 25 energy cost that prevents it really from being spammable and without healing say goodbye to that necro. Also the 2 second cast time sorta says "Hey look im casting OoA we gonna spike you." or "Hey look you can interupt me," because with the 25 energy cost you arent really gonna cast it unless you area planning a spike or simply removing enchants. Either way you can see what gonna happen and prepare for it. Honestly most builds should have interupts cause a 2 sec cast time is pretty big, if the casting time was shorter than 2 secs i agree it should be nerfed but seeing as it is not.... The spell is not overpowered.
Aera your idea would basically cause the necro to die everytime he casts it. This would cause it to go on the trash pile of skills most likely, since the result is a dead necro. Also if it became that i dont believe it would be an elite anymore just my opinion. But good suggestion even though i think it is unnecessary nerf.
Aera
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by A User Name
/not signed
Aera your idea would basically cause the necro to die everytime he casts it. This would cause it to go on the trash pile of skills most likely, since the result is a dead necro. Also if it became that i dont believe it would be an elite anymore just my opinion. But good suggestion even though i think it is unnecessary nerf. |
DC_Ross_Dark
totaly agree. Anet you bloody well nerf iway ok, but then you damn well bring this and make them worse than before. GG ANET. You piss me off so much sometimes.
This skill in only ever useful for IWAY and is totaly overpowered, fix it now.
/signed
This skill in only ever useful for IWAY and is totaly overpowered, fix it now.
/signed
BahamutKaiser
I haven't experienced this hex before, so I can't say much, but I will say that there are other forms of defense, primarily wards, and there are hex blocking skills too.
I would have to say that certain enchantments, expecially self casting ones, which are intregal parts of using a class should be turned into skill buffs which cannot be removed, like attunements, or at least make them stances and bump the effectiveness up, that way enchantment removal doesn't pawn everything, it should only be a good monk counter, classes like elementist already have more then enough counters. But good enchantment removal is best faced with quick destruction, healing skills instead of enchantments, and use of wards.
It would also help if they made some skills with the opposite effect, to preserve enchantments and protect them from being removed. A ranger spirit which causes all enchantments to last longer and makes them unremovable would be good, it is a strong effect, but it works both ways, and can be wiped out. It would also be great if they made a Ward of Enchantment preservation, which protects all allies in its effect from any form of enchantment stripping.
I would have to say that certain enchantments, expecially self casting ones, which are intregal parts of using a class should be turned into skill buffs which cannot be removed, like attunements, or at least make them stances and bump the effectiveness up, that way enchantment removal doesn't pawn everything, it should only be a good monk counter, classes like elementist already have more then enough counters. But good enchantment removal is best faced with quick destruction, healing skills instead of enchantments, and use of wards.
It would also help if they made some skills with the opposite effect, to preserve enchantments and protect them from being removed. A ranger spirit which causes all enchantments to last longer and makes them unremovable would be good, it is a strong effect, but it works both ways, and can be wiped out. It would also be great if they made a Ward of Enchantment preservation, which protects all allies in its effect from any form of enchantment stripping.
Warskull
*sigh*
If you don't PvP you really shouldn't comment on PvP balance. From some of these comments (Soul Reaping? Seriously?) it is clear people have never even tried using the skill. This skill is 25 energy, 2s cast time, and if it removes monk enchantments it will put the necro on death's doorstep very easily (even at very high levels of curses.) This skill has massive drawbacks and is fairly easy to counter.
If you don't PvP you really shouldn't comment on PvP balance. From some of these comments (Soul Reaping? Seriously?) it is clear people have never even tried using the skill. This skill is 25 energy, 2s cast time, and if it removes monk enchantments it will put the necro on death's doorstep very easily (even at very high levels of curses.) This skill has massive drawbacks and is fairly easy to counter.
Evilsod
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Warskull
*sigh*
If you don't PvP you really shouldn't comment on PvP balance. From some of these comments (Soul Reaping? Seriously?) it is clear people have never even tried using the skill. This skill is 25 energy, 2s cast time, and if it removes monk enchantments it will put the necro on death's doorstep very easily (even at very high levels of curses.) This skill has massive drawbacks and is fairly easy to counter. |
This skill extends slightly further than PvP, its overpowered wherever you go. Not only does the necro have Chilblains, a very effective and annoying untargated enchant removal, they now have the power to utterly devastate your enchantments in seconds. If the necro casting it knows what the hell he's doing, he can quite easily cast it and remain in the land of the living. Countering an untargetted mass enchant removal that is cast on every single 1 of the enemy team seems slightly far fetched if you ask me...
As far as i see it, Area's suggestion sounds quite fair. You basically remove an entire teams enchants for the next 5 seconds, you pay the price.
You basically eliminate the use of a prot/boon prot with that 1 spell, RoF (removed before it reverses?) Prot Spirit, Guardian, Aegis, Shield of Deflection/Regen, etc. Perhaps we should beg Anet to give Eles a Blinding Flash on steroids, blinds all opponents for x seconds... its the same thing.
[Edit: Please refrain from personal attacks, thank you.
-Mercury Angel]
A User Name
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Aera
Only in IWAY it does, in like, a rangerspike, where you all have the same target, the target doesn't have more than 5 enchantments on him ( come on, who has 5 enchantments on them 24/7? ) so it shouldn't kill the necro every time, just when you play the IWAY "build" where everyone is hacking and slashing into anything moving.
|
ghezbora
Seriously people... put down the nerf stick. At least try to think of counters before crying nerf...
-- sick a mesmer/ranger on that necro
-- ward v foes, ward v melee
-- kite
I happen to know these work against IWAY teams using OoA.
-- sick a mesmer/ranger on that necro
-- ward v foes, ward v melee
-- kite
I happen to know these work against IWAY teams using OoA.
MCS
Am I the only one wondering why people are talking about using this for spiking? Oh sh*t you get to remove enchantments make yourself useless for everything aside from casting this spell AND you get to kill yourself?!
Sign me up!
Or instead you could just cast any other enchantment removal on your target before you spike.
Maybe no one told you guys but IWAY sucks... It was nerfed for GvG where they could split not for tombs, if you lose to IWAY you don't know what you're doing.
Sign me up!
Or instead you could just cast any other enchantment removal on your target before you spike.
Maybe no one told you guys but IWAY sucks... It was nerfed for GvG where they could split not for tombs, if you lose to IWAY you don't know what you're doing.
anonymous
Enchantments arent the uber skills of invicibility, and anything that removes them as easily as you put them up shouldn't be nerfed just because of that.
Natures was nerfed because it removed enchants without it having a downside
Natures was nerfed because it removed enchants without it having a downside
Yanman.be
signet of humility , scourge sacrifice, stances, blind, GG
Fred Kiwi
wards
Mandy Memory
I must say, its a lot easier to get IWAY to halls with this skill. Overpowered? no. Good? yes.
MCS
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mandy Memory
I must say, its a lot easier to get IWAY to halls with this skill. Overpowered? no. Good? yes.
|
kaya
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by shardfenix
pi's 21 consecutive wins the other day
|
PI is 1773
haha! that's all there is to it.
/neutral
Kariston The Swift
The only trouble I had against Iway with OoA is when fighting on the altar in halls. They ripped off our seeds and spellbreaker and interrupted him forever. Other than that its not really much of a problem.
Aera
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mandy Memory
I must say, its a lot easier to get IWAY to halls with this skill. Overpowered? no. Good? yes.
|
shardfenix
You don't seem to understand why Apostacy is broken. Let me detail it a little bit more.
1: No recharge. As long as you have a monk, you can keep Apostacy up for as long as you want, for the whole match.
2: It kills every non-ritualist defensive skill IN THE GAME. No single skill should obliterate monks, mesmers, necros, assassins, and eles.
3: It is near impossible to get rid of. Apostacy applies to the party, which means in order to kill a necromancer with OoA, you have to run through an entire group, plus half your compass, to get to him.
4: It doesn't end after 1 enchant removal. You can spam it for complete enchantment removal on basically any target you want to.
Take one of the best builds in the game, and remove the enchantments from them, and run it in HA/GvG. You will lose EVERY match.
This skill in infuriatingly broken to hell. Please give it a gigantic nerf.
A-net nerfed NR because it removed enchantments from everyone. Apostacy has no recharge and removes enchantments from ENEMIES ONLY.
Side note: psychic distraction goes through mantra of resolve and glyph of concentration.
1: No recharge. As long as you have a monk, you can keep Apostacy up for as long as you want, for the whole match.
2: It kills every non-ritualist defensive skill IN THE GAME. No single skill should obliterate monks, mesmers, necros, assassins, and eles.
3: It is near impossible to get rid of. Apostacy applies to the party, which means in order to kill a necromancer with OoA, you have to run through an entire group, plus half your compass, to get to him.
4: It doesn't end after 1 enchant removal. You can spam it for complete enchantment removal on basically any target you want to.
Take one of the best builds in the game, and remove the enchantments from them, and run it in HA/GvG. You will lose EVERY match.
This skill in infuriatingly broken to hell. Please give it a gigantic nerf.
A-net nerfed NR because it removed enchantments from everyone. Apostacy has no recharge and removes enchantments from ENEMIES ONLY.
Side note: psychic distraction goes through mantra of resolve and glyph of concentration.
shardfenix
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Warskull
This skill is 25 energy, 2s cast time, and if it removes monk enchantments it will put the necro on death's doorstep very easily (even at very high levels of curses.) This skill has massive drawbacks and is fairly easy to counter.
|
OoA is near impossible to stop because the necromancer with it can stand a map and a half away from the battle and spam it.
One resurrection signet is a small price to pay to remove ALL enchantments on ALL of your targets.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by anonymous
Enchantments arent the uber skills of invicibility, and anything that removes them as easily as you put them up shouldn't be nerfed just because of that.
Natures was nerfed because it removed enchants without it having a downside |
"Lose 1 res sig and remove all enchantments from target party."
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Yanman.be
signet of humility , scourge sacrifice, stances, blind, GG
|
Now tell me, how do you run through an iway/smite group to spike down a necro, then lose your ghost because you have no enchantments?
BigTru
Wow. You've got to be kidding me. Whine, whine,moan is all I hear.
First off, Order of Apostacy hasn't even seen much use, and there's good reasons why, too.
First off, 25 Energy is a lot to anyone. Don't fool yourself. The life sac from this skill is nothing to scoff off either; at 12 blood magic, if 4 monk enchantments are removed, that's 40 percent of the necromancers health gone, and that's additional energy going into this spell because someone somewhere is going to heal it up.
Second, your party members have to HIT while under it's 5 SECOND effect. What does that mean? That mean's it's hardly a reliable way of "removing every enchantment instantly" as you seem to be inferring that it does. Guardian/Shield of Deflection and other similiar skills are all effective counters that can screw this skill's five second duration over.
To even compare this skill to the old NR is moronic and blind-sighted.
There's another effective-yet-balanced counter to some enchantments (though not all). Boo-hoo, cry some more.
First off, Order of Apostacy hasn't even seen much use, and there's good reasons why, too.
First off, 25 Energy is a lot to anyone. Don't fool yourself. The life sac from this skill is nothing to scoff off either; at 12 blood magic, if 4 monk enchantments are removed, that's 40 percent of the necromancers health gone, and that's additional energy going into this spell because someone somewhere is going to heal it up.
Second, your party members have to HIT while under it's 5 SECOND effect. What does that mean? That mean's it's hardly a reliable way of "removing every enchantment instantly" as you seem to be inferring that it does. Guardian/Shield of Deflection and other similiar skills are all effective counters that can screw this skill's five second duration over.
To even compare this skill to the old NR is moronic and blind-sighted.
There's another effective-yet-balanced counter to some enchantments (though not all). Boo-hoo, cry some more.