The root of all evil (true reason for Factions hate)

This may come as a revelation to some of you, but I believe I've pinpointed the one true reason everyone's been wailing on Factions. Don't read the below unless you want your world to be blown away and your perception of Anet to be shattered.

Ready? Here goes.

They're trying to convince us Factions is as long as Prophecies. It's not.

One of the main advertising points of Factions is that it is supposedly a stand-alone game. This, at least in theory, means that it should provide as many hours of gameplay as Prophecies has. But where Prophecies stretched out its storyline and made simply completing the game a feat in and of itself, Factions shifts the emphasis from PvE to PvP in order to maintain at least a semblance of "equal gameplay opportunity" when compared to Prophecies.

Don't believe me? Here are my arguments.

1) If you ask the average Factions player when the Factions "pre-Searing" ends, your most likely answer will be "When you're off the training island and on the mainland." This, however, is a false assumption. Factions "pre-Searing" ends when you reach Seitung Harbor.

Think about it. You need to pick a secondary profession before getting to the Harbor. The path to the Harbor is the last place you encounter enemies under level 10 (a psychological barrier more than anything else, but still). You can also learn new skills and get significantly better armor at the Harbor, and though both armor crafters and a skill trainer are available in Ran Musu Gardens, they tend to get overlooked as you're still adventuring in the same general area as before getting to that outpost. So already Factions is pushing players through the game at a much faster pace than Prophecies. Why?

2) The map of Cantha, even without any precise comparison, gives the impression that it is the same size as the map of Tyria. But this impression is only a self-deception induced by the fact that you can't overlap the two maps to compare their size in-game. But if you visit the Maps section on this very site, you'll see the map of Tyria clocks in at an impressive 7131KB, while Cantha lags far behind at 2565KB. The PvE missions necessary for the "Protector" title too betray the real Cantha: where a Tyrian needed to complete 25 to finish the game, a Canthan is only required to do 13.

So where does the extra gameplay come from? Where are the distances that a player in Prophecies needs to cover on the way from one mission to the next? They're hidden in the nastiest places - the places your character has already traveled and now needs to walk (not map!) back over in order to complete the "Primary Quests" that advance him through the storyline. There are few worse insults than forcing a videogame player to redo something without sufficient reason, and while fighting again on the same Bloodstone you've freed from Ether Seals in the previous mission is justifiable - the stakes are high, and the "backtracking" subtle enough to slip - covering the same long, tedious, enemy-ridden path only to get to an NPC who will send you to cover more of the same long, tedious and enemy-ridden path you've already walked over is enough to make a gamer's blood boil.

And what is the ultimate goal of all this rushed advancement and convoluted trudging through the identical cityscapes that make it impossible to determine where you're going? What is the payoff for the countless hours spent just to inch closer through the storyline?

3) Persistent warfare. The true emphasis of Factions is on this part of gameplay. Because no matter how long and convoluted the primary quests, neither the small map nor the short storyline can contain players for long. When they emerge victorious from the last mission - some sooner, some later - they will need to direct their attention elsewhere and once again be convinced that there are still hours of gameplay ahead of them, gameplay that in Prophecies happened to be PvE-related.

Instead, players are directed to alliance battles, which incidentally fall in the realm of PvP gameplay. But the chance of advancement in persistent warfare games is always limited, if not by the capabilities of the game (the line can only shift so far) then by the players on the other side. In effect, persistent warfare allows advancing without advancing and packs, once again, more content into the same (map) space - as seems to be the theme in Factions. This does nothing to actually lengthen the game, and only provides the illusion that Factions has as long a "play life" as Prophecies.

But those are facts. And now a moment for my opinion.

In my opinion, Factions does not deserve the title "Guild Wars." Already I've seen waning interest in GvG combat as alliance battles and faction farming take center stage. Many strong guilds have made themselves stronger through alliances, trying to reap what benefits they can out of the persistent warfare system, and that has effectively taken them out of what in Prophecies was the main arena of PvP combat. Where Prophecies was "Guild Wars" because it made an emphasis on the activity that gave it the title, Factions can't share the same clame. Instead, Factions should only be called "Alliance Wars" as that is the focus of the game.

Yes, there are things about Factions that I love, like the chance to reenter mission areas and explore them without restarting the mission. Yes, there are things about Factions that I hate, like the Primary Quests. But the accumulation of the little things that to me remove Factions so far from "Guild Wars" forces me to reject the fact that this product, which is only mechanically tied to its predecessor, deserves to be put on the same level.

Instead of the "user friendly" vibe of Guild Wars what I'm getting from Factions is the "faster, grindmaster" feeling, and that deeply concerns me.

Those gates blocking us from exploring are damned annoying.

I'm hearing this a lot lately. I keep typing things like "stand-alone game" into dictionaries and encyclopedias, but hear no mention of something like "a game as long as Guild Wars: Prophecies".

EDIT: I do agree though that they pushed the idea that Factions was as long as Prophecies, just packed in a greater density.

Fact: Cantha is smaller than Tyria.
Fact: Theres fewer missions in Cantha
Fact: Theres lots of fedex type delivery quests that trek over the same maps
Fact: Reaching level 20 is much much faster because the game gives so much XP.
Fact: Some people LOVE the grind.

Game length is as short as a you want it to be. Rush it and its quick. Take your time and its slow.

Oh and if you dont see any "guild wars" in factions, then Why are the Am Fah and the Jade brotherhood fighting? Why are you killing Crimson Skulls? Why are individual quilds within each faction fighting for control?

as lyra said if you rush it, its fast. This is true because when Prophecies came out not as many people were as excited and quick to beat the came so fast. When factions came out there were many more fans that wanted to beat the game fast. This is why it seemed so short. It was also shorter to, but you cant make it equally as long as the first.

In the original threadmakers post he mae many right things and included wrong things, such as the name of the game.

Can't dispute your facts, but do have to respond to your points.

"Game length" is both subjective and objective. If there was no Prophecies we would only be able to speak of subjective game length - how long it takes the player to complete the game when compared to other players. But Prophecies does exist, and we're forced to contend with objective game length - how long it takes the player to complete the game when compared to other games. If you're equating "game length" to "storyline length," Factions is indeed smaller.

And my point isn't that Factions does not have "guild wars." My point is that Factions does not have "Guild Wars." Prophecies didn't have rival guilds fighting each other - the closest we ever had were the White Mantle - but it was still "Guild Wars" because GvG took center stage. In Factions, despite the presence of NPC guilds, main emphasis is on alliances and alliance warfare. That's my point - the deviation from "Guild Wars" to "Alliance Wars" which, in my opinion, does not give Factions the right to share a title with Prophecies.

for some reason, i don't think the two maps (tyria and cantha) are drawn on the same scale. if that's true, then we really cannot compare the two continents at all.

also, keep in mind that the area of the ghetto is deceptively large. on the world map, it only shows one level. in reality, there are often 2 levels. in some places, there are as many as SIX levels. so yes, the map will look smaller, but it is in fact quite large. if you spread the total explorable land of the ghetto on a flat surface, it's probably larger than the rest of the continent.

if you are going to compare factions (a stand alone game) with Prophecies you may as well compare it to the game length of Medal of Honor, Doom 3, Age of Empires, and so on and so forth. Not every game ever created is going to be just as long or short as another, so dont let it make you lose sleep at night. Just deal with it and move on, it is another game not as long as another. People werent dissapointed when Medal of Honor Frontline wasnt as long as Medal of Honor Allied Assault now were they.

Actually I like factions better than prophecies. So when you claim that I hate factions, does that mean that I just really hate everything else?

Wait, so walking for 40 minutes through the same empty landscape with possibly one or two quests is worlds better than having a smaller map filled with 20 quests? Sure, all that space might be absolutely beautiful, but how many scenic screenshots or perfect picnic locations do you really need anyways?

And have you bothered reading the quests? The pure humor and satire in quite a few of them enhance my gaming experience *much* more than 10 more minutes of walking through yet more meaningless mob-ridden landscapes.

When did the definition of "stand-alone" become conflated with "same as Prophecies?" For that matter, when did the definition of a "long" enjoyment of the game become conflated with "big map size?" You might not like going through the same path twice, but I don't like having big spaces that I don't have a desire of going to, much less back to.

Factions does stand alone simply for the reason that you can play it from beginning to end, and can still feel like you've gotten your money's worth. And before anyone starts arguing about that, again, tell me how much it costs you to go to 5-6 movies. Then tell me how long those movies are combined, and go in game and type /age. Sure, that's not an entirely fair comparison, but I feel if you have more than 50 hours (and most people I know have 200), then you've gotten your money's worth.

Hold on a second. You're saying Factions is a standalone game, but what does that make Prophecies - which existed without Factions for a year? Why isn't it fair to compare the two if they are both released by the same company, in the same game world, and with the same target audience? Why is it so strange that people would compare one to the other when trying to determine if Factions lives up to their expectations which are based on Prophecies?

I know nothing about Medal of Honor, or what happened when its sequel was released. What I do know is what I can see by browsing this very forum - people are disappointed with Factions. By extrapolating from my own experience and searching for points of contradiction, I'm hoping to find out why.

Where did I claim that you specifically hate Factions? I don't know you well enough to say something like that, and since you're saying you love it I'm in no position to contradict you. I'm just trying to figure out why the people who do express their dislike for Factions are so disappointed. Even my own opinion about Factions isn't firmly embedded in either camp, though I have been leaning towards discontent.

Comparing the length of CH1 to CH2 is like comparing the length of HL1 to HL2. I haven't finished HL1 (mostly because something eventually spanks me enough that I give up for a while, it gets deleted and I have to start over again at some point), however, I did finish HL2 in approximately 15 hours, does this make it a short or a long game? Does this make it shorter or longer than HL1? What about the games of old (Wizardry 1 - 8, Ultima 1-9) where you could import your characters from the previous game or start a new character if you want, expansion or stand-alone? Just because you don't like the game doesn't mean you have to continually rant about it, lots of us are quite happy with it. Sure some things need a bit of adjustment, adjustments will come, I have found ANet to be a lot more responsive in that area than most other companies. Factions lives up to my expectations, a game that expands upon the original with a great deal of new content.

Oh yes. I did very much love the Celestial Ministry and their feeble attempt to feed Homeless Canthans with mirrors. But I did very much hate the fact that in order to complete said quest - which was arguably easier than others I picked up in the very same area - I had to zone out of the huge area I've painstakingly cleared and ran all over for the 3 hours beforehand, and that I then had to do nearly the same thing when completing the quest and coming back to receive the reward.

It's the backtracking that gets me the most, the need to effectively fight my way through the same exact area I've just cleared/traveled/mapped over. At least in Tyria, where more quests were tied to towns and outposts - possibly because more towns and outposts were available on the larger map - I could complete quests without zoning or at least without clearing the same zone twice.

I'm speaking from personal experience here. I am a PvE person, mainly. The more I played Prophecies, the more I enjoyed it. The longer the storyline was, the more I played. Even when the storyline was over, I kept playing, going out with the henchies and looking at the amazing scenery. I walked from Camp Rankor to Beacon's Perch just because I wanted to see what was in between. That's how I got my Tyrian Grandmaster Cartographer title.

I can't imagine myself doing the same thing in Cantha. The city is a labyrinth that leaves me with an aftertaste. The missions seem - for the lack of a better term - "jerky," and the storyline awkward. The first mainland mission and its double "Deus Ex Machina" grates on my nerves every time I have to take a guildie through it (thankfully, most parties skip the ending animation).

Factions is being sold at exactly the same price as Prophecies. Why should my definition of how much my gameplay my money can get me change, if I'm buying - for the same price, from the same company - a sequel to the game I greatly enjoyed?

Have you ever played any of the Metroid games? Do you realise how much backtracking is done in them? Do you know most can be completed in under an hour? Did you know it is one of the most popular games series?

I'm going with what the other guy said. There's so much hate on factions because the people who love it aren't bothering with these forums, they're playing it. This makes all the hate posts look like the opinion of the entire community. This very same thing happened on the forums when Prophecies first came out and it will happen when Ch3 comes out. And people like you will make posts like this about Ch3 being crap because of all the hate and finding 'reason' to it.

I prefer that Factions is short and sweet as opposed to Prophecies long and drawn out.

I know about as much Metroid as I do Medal of Honor, and the comparison would only be valid if we were discussing the first game in the Metroid series versus the second. We could start comparing Metroid and Guild Wars, but I doubt there would be much ground for it, and it would take us off the topic.

If you're claiming the boards are skewed, how do you suggest we provide feedback that reflects the true feelings of the entire Guild Wars community? For that matter, how can any of us speak about what the opinion of the community is unless we witness it? When someone speaks about personal disappointment with Factions, they are dismissed as "venting their anger." When someone speaks about collective disappointment with Factions, they are dismissed as "unable to represent the community." The point is that there are dissatisfied members of the Guild Wars community out there - as we see from the forums - and that we can only assume there are equally silent supporters and detractors of Factions that remain outside the visible scope of the forums.

Also remember for most people there is no high level content. It is restricted to high end PvP people and whoever the holding houses opt to let in.

I agree with everything the op said and very well written may I add.

I love Faction as much as Prophecy, which both games I enjoy immensely.

I don't mind the change in style of the quests which involves backtracking.

It's different so I like it.

A game is as long as you want it to be. To me, this time round playing Faction, I have been taking my time to do most quests available to me instead of trying to rush off and getting Ascended in Prophecy.

I guess the OP is stating the fact of what he believes, but I think it'll be better to critise the points which *may* possibility be influenced and changed.

Map size.. maybe they will add a SF similar place in the future.

After having new characters in both it took me about 2 days longer to complete Prophecies as it did Factions, just the 1st time i made a prophecies character i wondered what the hell a skillbar was for, adjusting to an assasin was mainly done during the beta events thus when the game was release i knew what i was doing and i had a general grasp of mechanics of the game from previous chapters.

The fact the 1st part is so fast i imagine is there way of trying to maximise content for the lvl20 characters on the mainland through an accelerated pre - those post Seitung missions arent easy though (expecially in a party of all assasins) and definateley require teamwork which i actually quite enjoyed as the whole guild was there.

Sorry the if ur not GvG you dont deserve GW name got to me, my guild doesnt GvG at the moment, does that mean im not really a guildwars player? some guild are only PvE im sure the people who have guilds that do both like the mix of content rather than pure one way or the other.

Board opinion polls are always going to be scewed as only those people passionate enough about a game will bother to post, and its much easier to get upset over something than people posting wow have u seen the scenery in Ponmei valley that must have taken them bloody ages, thus ull tend to get posts with something people dont like more often expecially when something changes.

and remember - if theres going to be a new update/version/whatever in 6 months why would they make it as huge, though i doubt many people will say im not buying chapter 3 because im still doing chapter 2 there will be some and ANets buisiness model collapses if people dont buy the new chapters. And if people dont buy and server costs are still rolling in......

This point was made due to the complaint about backtracking. If backtracking was so horrid, why is Metroid so good?

And it's being claimed that the complaints on this forum represent the community as a whole. Of course people are going to be disappointed, it doesn't mean the game is a failure, it just means that you can't please everyone.

You know, on the lower number of missions:

One thing that disappointed me in Prophecies was the lack of questing at the end. By the time you reached the Southern Shiverpeaks, it seemed that, apart from the 15 attribute quest and the later updates (Sorrow's Furnace and the Titan Quests), no-one wanted you to do anything that isn't missions any more. Without those updates, most of the Southern Shiverpeaks was basically there as a place to put elite skill bosses. Meanwhile, the later areas of Factions - Echovald Forest and the Jade Sea - remain loaded with quests, and the rest of the map in general maintains a quest density as high as Ascalon in Prophecies. So yes, there are fed-ex and annoying 'travel the same ground over and over again' quests (which I found annoying too, but which there were also plenty of in Prophecies as well - remember the Duke's Daughter and Althea's Ashes quests, or, even worse, Blood and Smoke (especially if you didn't know about the trick of killing the centaur first)?) but overall I think the greater number of quests does go some way to mitigate the smaller number of missions.

As another item of note: The faster rate of levelling was a deliberate move by ANet in order to increase the proportion of high-end content, with lack of high-end content being one of the points of complaint in Prophecies. Consider, if Factions had the same pacing as Prophecies, we'd be complaining about how little of the new storyline was actually challenging for our Tyrian characters (I'm a little apprehensive of taking my Factions characters through Prophecies in order to acquire the Prophecies elites myself). Unfortunately, there's always going to be a point where the content has to stop and you're left with repeating the highest-difficulty areas - in Prophecies, this is the new Tombs, Sorrow's Furnace, and, if you have favour, the Fissure and the Underworld, while in Factions it's going for a higher score in the Challenge missions and, if you're lucky enough to have access, the elite missions. (And remember that two of the areas mentioned for Prophecies - and, furthermore, the two with unrestricted access - were after the original release, so we may get similar post-release goodies for Factions.)

Ultimately, they have to stop somewhere and release the product. I suspect that if ANet can maintain their intended schedule of a chapter every six months, by this time next year all but the most hardcore players are going to find themselves swamped with things to do between new content and redoing old content with new characters.

Do you realize Metroid doesn't claim to be an RPG?

Did you not understand my subtle point?

Good Points

Hi Shyft lol

From my view, this topic is just another split from,

PvPer's view
vs
PvEer's view

Nothing more.

Anet had promise they will work both way, each at a time. One time focus on PvE, another time focus on PvP.

I am hoping chapter 3 would have a good merge of the two though.

Do you not see a very significant amount of difference between the backtracking in Metroid games that takes seconds to minutes, and the backtracking in Guild Wars that takes tens of minutes?

Missed it completely, because the two are unrelated.

Metroid backtracking: New powers often open new routes you can take (Or in some cases, same old routes but completely invulnerable, ie speed boost), and you can simply ignore the enemies the majority of the time if you don't feel like killing them.

GuildWars backtracking: You have to kill everything in your path, because you need to get your party through to the quest, then back to the goal, every time. New routes never become available.

Plus there's the fact that metroid never forced you to clear an area, do something, then reload the zone and clear it a second time just to do something else. That would have been annoying...but it's okay for Factions to do it?

Oh good god, you're right!

RPG'S TAKE A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF TIME TO COMPLETE! MY WORLD IS FOREVER CHANGED BY THIS REVELATION!

Don't you just hate clearing every nook and cranny of a zone? I know I do. I can't stand random monster encounters either, sometimes I take two steps after a battle and end up in another one. God it's so repetetive, I hate RPG's.

So because you can't prove that they're actually the same thing (Which is what your point requires), you choose to resort to sarcasm and gross overstatements. And double post. Use the edit button and copy a new quote in, maybe?

Ah forum discussions, how I love them...

Indeed. I can't prove they're the same thing because ZOMG WTF THEY AREN'T. LOOKS LIKE YOU MISSED MY POINT ENTIRELY.

You don't have to clear the entire area each time you backtrack, in fact, considering your skill should be slightly more adjusted than the previous time, it should be easier to go in and kill the things in your way and avoid the enemies you don't have to fight. Are the similarities becoming clearer now?

Lets get to the real point though, why is Metroid so popular? Obviously not because of the backtracking, because that's so goddamn horrid and infuriating to make you quit the game

Oh that's right, it's FUN. Never would have thought of that, I know I wouldn't.

You have to re-clear bits you cleared before, and there's no reason you wouldn't have the skills before that you do after. Besides that, no one skill in GW will ever have the impact on getting around that some of the upgrades did in Metroid. They're still completely dissimilar.

I never had a single frustration with backtracking in Metroid. Fighting the same enemies was somewhat entertaining, something Factions is lacking (Fighting the same enemies in Factions is boring as almost nothing else...) You can't say "Metroid had backtracking, therefore GW backtracking doesn't suck" and expect it to work, because as I explained the effect in each game is completely different and you've said nothing to demonstrate otherwise.

And Factions isn't, it's relying on Prophecies' popularity to carry it through. What's your point?

This is the part I ask you why you're playing. It's not fun? Noone's forcing you to play, noone's forcing you to buy each chapter. If you lost out, cry more. Many people have spent money on games that they later realised sucked. ArenaNet can't please everyone and you're one of them.

Now, why does my having fun or not make it okay to require heavy backtracking to complete quests, sometimes having to reload a zone to get a second quest? (And thus doubling the backtracking time, as you have to clear the paths you need again...) Fun of the entire game or not is irrelevent, the point you were arguing was that backtracking was good...right?

If you don't think it's good -- just that it doesn't make the game not fun -- then you have nothing. The original point wasn't that it was the entire flaw of Factions, just that it was a flaw Factions had.

Factions beats Prophecies in terms of Level 20 content, hands down. Prophecies has four Crystal Desert missions (not including the doppleganger fight, which takes only a minute and half a brain), three southern Shiverpeak missions, three Fire Island missions, a handful of Sorrow's Furnace quests, and Tomb of the Primeval Kings. In Factions, pretty much all the content after Shing Jea is meant for level 20 toons. The sheer number of Level 20 quests all over Cantha beats the five or six (or more, I think) that you get down in SF.

I don't agree that Factions stiffed us at all. It offers content that even tripped-out Tyrians can enjoy immediately. A tripped-out Canthan, meanwhile, has to finish six missions before he reaches an area with some challenge (assuming he doesn't get run to Sanctum Cay). After the missions are done, the Canthan basically has SF and Tombs to do. Back on Cantha, meanwhile, someone who finished all the missions has three Challenge missions plus a large amount of quests that can be found in several towns.

I remember reading somewhere that ArenaNet planned to focus their future content on stuff that Ascended (read: level 20) players would enjoy. Because really, how long do we intend to stay at level 10, 11, 12, etc?

Actually, I seem remember the issue of HL2 being too short of a game (especilly when compared to the first one) coming up in many professional reviews of that game.

Professional game reviewers judge games based on general hours of gameplay <i>all the time</i>, I don't know why everyone keeps acting like it's too abstract and subjective a concept to be a valid criticism.

I like Factions. Factions is different from Prophecies, if it was made same format with prophecies, that's boring - some more running and excessive farming, just different terrain and mobs.

I never said it was fun or good. Before you go on assuming more things, I didn't say it was boring or bad either. It is a part of the game, typical RPG style thing. Make a quest that can't be narrowed down to "Go from place a (maybe with item x) to place b", or "go to place a to kill monster b" and you'll be a winner.

Would you rather the quests be just strolling through Cantha without any enemies in the way? Because I think that would just be over the top with excitement. There's only so much fun you can pack into a game before it gets too much.

A chapter every 6 months will be the end of this game. I remember when Magic the gathering came out, and they released a theme deck 1 time a year. Then it became multiple times a year. As time went on, people lost interest with the constant change. Change is good, but in moderation. Prophecies was out a year, thats long enough. Seems to me, factions was made short to set us up for the 6 month plan. I dont want to blow $50 every 6 months, on a game that takes me 20 hours to beat. $50 for a game that takes days upon days, ok, but something like that doesnt come out every 6 months. This game is quickly leaning towards WOW and EQ. 30000 expansions, oh sorry stand alone games, in a few years. Too much change isnt a good thing. And how on earth are you all comparing Metroid to GW? Metroid is legendary, GW doesnt deserve that title yet. Thats like comparing Cal Ripken to Derrick Jeter.