MM.... why all the hate
Manic Smile
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Originally Posted by Ensign
Quote: Originally Posted by Ensign I hit Raisu with minions for the first time a couple nights ago, hit it at 20 and change with some bitterness and haven't really desired to go back and try for the masters...though I did have to slow down a bit to clean up Silver Armor deaths at one point. It's just an example of the speed a MM can keep up. I know 8(?) party teams that can't beat the mission in that time. There is no reason a MM has to hold back a team.
Quote: Originally Posted by Ensign I think the difference is from Heal Area. Before you wanted to make good use of that skill for good heals mid-battle - getting your fiends to bunch up for Heal Area while attacking was huge, and it got you a lot of healing in transit. Now that tactic really isn't neccessary, so all the interesting Heal Area positioning became obsolete in favor of BotM spam. I disagree, I keep a constant cast of BotM as I lose next to no minnions that way and that = 1 HA every 3 BotMs or so. And I don't have to be near my minnions while I BotM once they are engaged so I can reinforce a warrior in the front lines for all I want once he has aggro. BotM has only increased the freedom of the HA, and since I have two and energy is even less of a concern I can go ape shit with it.
Quote: Originally Posted by Ensign Yeah that's a thing that crushes minions at times, their perfect willingness to fire into a rock over and over again, unwilling to break aggro until their target has died. Lost some nice armies back in the day to that. You really want to know where to engage from in certain areas to avoid those problems. Not the most difficult thing in the world, but experience certainly helps. =) *cough* thirsty *cough* experience eliminates that problem for the most part, knowing where they glitch and how to draw aggro around it
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Again what of Protective Spirit? Why after all the nerfs this game has had does it still survive? Why has A.net touched everything else to stop 55 farming but the damn PS spell itself but shread VS for the MM?|
Originally Posted by Ensign
The argument that because several things are broken you cannot fix any particular broken thing is irrational.
That is not my argument. My argument is simply that A.net has shown through it's behavior in the past to have little concern in reguards to how overpowered something is in PvE unless it's breaking the game economy...farming/botting/exploits. So there were my examples of how the MM being 'retardedly overpowered' in PvE is irrelvant to why they were nerfed. Quote:
I think it's a little more complex than that. Their history is not one of ignoring PvE balance issues, but ignoring PvE balance issues that don't severely affect the game experience for a significant majority of their playerbase. If you have a trick build that solo farms they really don't care, unless, as you said, it breaks the game economy and starts to affect other players. But if the overpowered trick build you developed was something that people wanted to play in a group, then it becomes a problem. People begin to see it, start demanding it for their teams. Everyone has to start using the build if they want to just play the game, or use a certain exploitative trick when they do a mission - ala the book.
If the minion master was a solo template, I'm pretty sure it would have been largely ignored. But because it was a common template for team play, one that made the rest of the players obsolete once it got rolling, that's the sort of thing that garners attention. It affects casual players directly, because those characters were in their groups, and that's why it got addressed. Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic Smile
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The MM build must have been nerfed for PvP reasons.
I am amused by the process of logic here. You conclude that it had to have been nerfed for PvP reasons, because you assume that A.Net doesn't care about PvE. Are you really so jaded? It is downright fascinating to me that a large balance change comes into the game that directly affects the most powerful PvE archtype - alongside changes to the book trick, I might add - and the immediate and enduring reaction is that it's a PvP nerf.
I think it's a little more complex than that. Their history is not one of ignoring PvE balance issues, but ignoring PvE balance issues that don't severely affect the game experience for a significant majority of their playerbase.
It's pretty obvious where those threads about A.Net not caring about PvE come from, when everything that can possibly be attributed to PvP is. Quote:
yea, and I've bitched about what you really ment...somewhere on Guru
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Quote: Originally Posted by Ensign If you have a trick build that solo farms they really don't care, unless, as you said, it breaks the game economy and starts to affect other players. But if the overpowered trick build you developed was something that people wanted to play in a group, then it becomes a problem. People begin to see it, start demanding it for their teams. Everyone has to start using the build if they want to just play the game, or use a certain exploitative trick when they do a mission - ala the book.. You know after thinking about all the examples that come to mind, I do agree with what you say here and above. But A.net handled it very heavy handedly in reguards to VS and the overall playability(not function) of the MM. I never said MM wasn't overpowered, just no more then any of the other 10ish common builds, I never said I didn't expect a nerf but the MM now in many places isn't much fun to play and that has nothing to do with the minnion cap. If they made it less tedious and kept me engaged like the old build did I could care less about that at all.
Quote: Originally Posted by Ensign If the minion master was a solo template, I'm pretty sure it would have been largely ignored. But because it was a common template for team play, one that made the rest of the players obsolete once it got rolling, that's the sort of thing that garners attention. It affects casual players directly, because those characters were in their groups, and that's why it got addressed. In SF the rest of the party was hardly obsolete, you needed the gear trick to keep focus. Ever try SF with only 4 without a gear tank? Ever try the difference between SS and no SS in SF? The build was cheap but balanced imo. And beyond SF there isn't really a place where you 'need' a MM...in the mind of common pugs which is what this is about.
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Originally Posted by Ensign
I am amused by the process of logic here. You conclude that it had to have been nerfed for PvP reasons, because you assume that A.Net doesn't care about PvE. Are you really so jaded? It is downright fascinating to me that a large balance change comes into the game that directly affects the most powerful PvE archtype - alongside changes to the book trick, I might add - and the immediate and enduring reaction is that it's a PvP nerf.
I'm glad to provide you entertainment...but that aside, book trick effected farming, effecting entire economy and was an exploit that was widely used. It fits within my logic chain. And why did A.net wati till Factions to address the MM overpoweredness.
In SF the rest of the party was hardly obsolete, you needed the gear trick to keep focus. Ever try SF with only 4 without a gear tank? Ever try the difference between SS and no SS in SF?
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I agree with that. Losing Verata's Sacrifice, while possibly neccessary from a power standpoint, sure did make moving minions around orders of magnitude more tedious. That was likely an unforseen problem with that nerf. The minion cap makes the build a bit more tedious in its own way, by removing the neccessity of good micro.
Of course at the same time, that infrastructure is less neccessary now so you could potentially find other things to do with your time and energy while maintaining minions now. Quote: |
That 5 man team was, essentially, 4 abusive characters and a healer. The big strength of that team was that it could succeed easily even if one of the members was mind-blowingly incompetent, or dropped from the group entirely.
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Originally Posted by Manic Smile
but that aside, book trick effected farming, effecting entire economy and was an exploit that was widely used. It fits within my logic chain. And why did A.net wati till Factions to address the MM overpoweredness.
PvE exploits are victimless. Players use them to get extra loot, and the targets of those exploits are AI monsters that don't care. Victims of overpowered PvP builds are other players, who most certainly do care. Nerfing of overpowered PvP builds is generally welcomed by the community, while fixing a broken PvE build results in endless bitching and crying. The reaction and desires of the community play into what takes precedence pretty heavily, I'd think. Quote:
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