NCsoft Support response to AFKers and bots in new random PvP missions

Kalki

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Summoners of Forgotten Gods

W/Mo

14 May 2006 at 11:21 - 1
Anyone who has played the Fort Aspenwood or Jade Quarry missions has probably encountered a player, that went AFK during the round, ruined the round for other players, yet still got faction rewards at the end. I came across such a cheater yesterday, and decided to report that person. Here is my report, and the replies from NCsoft customer support.

My initial report:
05/13/2006 07:11 AM
Quote:
At approximately 7:50 AM EST on Saturday May 13th, I started a round in the new Fort Aspenwood mission for the game Guild Wars Factions, and there was a person named "(name left out due to forum rules)", who joined and didn't move his character from the time the round started to its conclusion. I think it's fair to assume that this person is afk, and farming faction through botting. This not only ruins the mission, but it can ruin the ecomony and whole new faction system. I sincerely hope this person is banned, and this game flaw is fixed. I can provide screenshots or more information if needed. Thank you in advance.
Standard NC Soft auto-reponse:
05/13/2006 07:21 AM
Quote:
Hello ----,

Thanks for getting in touch with the Guild Wars Support Team regarding a potential rules violation.

We will use the information you have provided to investigate whether a violation of the rules has occurred. Please note, however, that we are unable to reimburse you for any items or gold lost as the result of a transaction with another player. Also, all information related to the discovery and disciplining of an account will only be discussed between the violator and customer support. If we do find that a rule or rules were broken, you will not hear of any rulings related to the incident and the account(s) involved.

We appreciate your support of Guild Wars and your interest in keeping the game world pleasant for all players.

Regards,
The Guild Wars Support Team
Here's a response I've never seen before in my previous reports, which seems to suggest, they won't do anything about this behavior. I've italicised the disturbing part of this reply.
05/13/2006 05:36 PM
Quote:
Hello ----,

Thanks for getting in touch with us regarding to your issue with a player in this cooperative mission.

In Guild Wars we all wish that every player will always play fair and with honor. Sadly, on occasion, a player will act in a less-than-honest manner, perhaps being very annoying and making decisions that affect us negatively. Unfortunately, such acts are matters over which we have no control and about which we cannot take corrective measures. We cannot force players to act a certain way simply because they may annoy us.

However, if we find that a player has violated the Terms of Service or Rules of Conduct (http://www.guildwars.com/legal/) we will take the necessary and appropriate actions against that player. If account actions are required; disclosure of this information will only be conveyed to the offending party; we are not at liberty to discuss account related issues with anyone but the account holder due to our privacy policy.

If you have additional questions please let us know.

Regards,
The Guild Wars Support Team
My final reply:
Quote:
I appreciate your honesty in this, and I'm assuming that your last reply means that clicking "Enter Mission" or having a bot enter the mission for you, and deliberately going afk (probably sitting on a beach while they farm faction in game)is not a punishable offense. While I'm disappointed in your stance I'll admit that this flaw lies more on the shoulders of the developers, then the people exploiting it. I can promise you, that if this problem isn't fixed either by the developers or by admins handing out bans, the Fort Aspenwood and Jade Quarry missions will be unplayable in the near future, and you will have many angry customers.
So what do you all think? Am I over-reacting or does that second reply from Support suggest they won't do anything about this, and we'll just have to wait from a fix from the developers?

Hockster

Hockster

Banned

Join Date: Jul 2005

14 May 2006 at 11:28 - 2
What do you expect them to do? Monitor every second of every group?

TB_

TB_

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

14 May 2006 at 11:29 - 3
Do not use NCSoft support, they do nothing. *They have no connection to AN at all* and will do nothing but help on misc windows or NC soft account issues.

The support issue is huge, we have no-where legit to place bugs, exploit information, gold sellers or other EULA violators and such. They keep saying post it on a local fan forum, yeah... thats professional.

Kalki

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Summoners of Forgotten Gods

W/Mo

14 May 2006 at 11:32 - 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockster
What do you expect them to do? Monitor every second of every group?
I expect Support to have an appropriate stance on game-breaking behavior, and when such behavior is reported the offenders are punished. I also expect the developers to implement a fix to make this very difficult for people to exploit. Is that too much to ask?

generik

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

14 May 2006 at 11:34 - 5
Well if you lose you only gain a puny amount of faction, running is so much more efficient if you are after good bang for your time.

Kalki

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Summoners of Forgotten Gods

W/Mo

14 May 2006 at 11:39 - 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by generik
Well if you lose you only gain a puny amount of faction, running is so much more efficient if you are after good bang for your time.
I completely agree. The new missions are great and very fun to play. I know a lot of dishonorable gamers wouldn't mind waking up after a nights sleep with 10k faction (equivelant to about 30 platinum right now) with a bot that would be incredibly easy to set up. For anyone not understanding how easy this is all you need to do is position your mouse on the screen and have a program (or pecking bird if you've seen that Simpsons )auto-click your mouse.

Vanquisher

Site Contributor

Join Date: Mar 2005

Herts, UK

One Hitter Quitters [QQ]

14 May 2006 at 11:44 - 7
It's like griefing in any form of PvP, running when your entire team is dead, so as to annoy the people you're fighting against. Or ruining a mission for your group in PvM. It's going to happen, and you can't get banned for it because it's not breaking the rules. Really, you should learn to accept that a lot of people are idiots, and get over it.

Kalki

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Summoners of Forgotten Gods

W/Mo

14 May 2006 at 11:47 - 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanquisher
It's like griefing in any form of PvP, running when your entire team is dead, so as to annoy the people you're fighting against. Or ruining a mission for your group in PvM. It's going to happen, and you can't get banned for it because it's not breaking the rules. Really, you should learn to accept that a lot of people are idiots, and get over it.
The key difference being that someone running in a PvP match is at their computer actually playing the game.

I don't know how I could make this any more clear how faulty this all is. Did everyone drink their coffee this morning?

generik

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

14 May 2006 at 12:17 - 9
Well I don't see how they can enforce it, these games do take quite a while to setup since so often you just get that no opposing party message... very often I just go off to do something else only to come back and find that it is already over

Fossa

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2005

14 May 2006 at 12:23 - 10
It's probably hard to stop, however they could change the reward system. As it is now the losing side gets 200-400 faction and the winners 600 faction. Make the rewards for winning 750 and for losing 100-200 faction. That would make slow down faction farming bots at least.

Fitz Rinley

Fitz Rinley

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

The Rusty Rose

W/Mo

14 May 2006 at 13:44 - 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanquisher
It's like griefing in any form of PvP, running when your entire team is dead, so as to annoy the people you're fighting against. Or ruining a mission for your group in PvM. It's going to happen, and you can't get banned for it because it's not breaking the rules. Really, you should learn to accept that a lot of people are idiots, and get over it.
This isn't about idiots. It is about a lack of honor and the horrendously bad manner in which Factions is set up. The entire faction concept is wrong. The creatinon of faction taxes and selling to the highest bidder is wrong. The elimination of access except thru permission by other players is wrong. The attempted destruction of personal autonomy in game by trying to coerce people to destroy their guilds and logos and join a mega-faction farming corps is wrong. These bots/AFK positions will become the standard way of playing Factions with the reapers of the benefits excluding ALL players that do not farm for them. With the gold and faction they receive in ALL chapters already made and those as yet unmade they will control all Guild Wars play and eliminate the fan base.

Power does not corrupt, it attracts the corruptible. Guild Wars has merely created a system to attract the corruptible to an evil life faster. The result of the new system is to teach players all persons they encounter are merely marks to be used in any manner for personal gain (power/wealth). It is in every principle anathema to light side capitalism.

Fitz

WasAGuest

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

14 May 2006 at 14:35 - 12
When info on these missions was released (and before Factions even came out) I had mentioned that unless greater rewards were given to the PvE crowd for those repeatable quests, there would be some putz that would simply enter the mission and sit there to farm faction.
Unfortunatly, people like the above mentioned give us PvEers a bad name as whiners and cheaters.
There's really no way to stop this as it's "free" faction for them. But it would be possible to curb the behavior slightly.

Reduce rewards for the losing side or make the rewards for the repeatable quests twice that amount the losing side gets. This would make mooching the missions less inviting too them. Doing this of course, makes those missions less appealing to those who are likely to lose or feel they may lose and thus fewer people would consider them... at least in my way of thinking.

Edit: or allow teams to choose people before entering the missions.

Phades

Phades

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

14 May 2006 at 17:21 - 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockster
What do you expect them to do? Monitor every second of every group?
Disconnect people who idle.

Eet GnomeSmasher

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2005

In my head

14 May 2006 at 17:49 - 14
What they need to do is to make reporting people a lot easier. As in making it ingame instead of the craphole system where you have to go through the website and filling out a form.

It should be a system where if enough different people report the same account/person, then that account will be investigated. That way it ensures that people arent wrongly accused and that repeat offenders will be punished and that it won't wasted NCSoft's time investigating every non repeat offender incident.

Yes, there really isnt anything you can do so a thicker skin is needed but those saying to just "suck it up" are adding to the problem too. With that attitude nothing would ever get fixed.

Fyre Brand

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

Shadowlight Order [SoR]

14 May 2006 at 18:13 - 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by TB_
Do not use NCSoft support, they do nothing. *They have no connection to AN at all* and will do nothing but help on misc windows or NC soft account issues.

The support issue is huge, we have no-where legit to place bugs, exploit information, gold sellers or other EULA violators and such. They keep saying post it on a local fan forum, yeah... thats professional.
That's not true at all. NCSoft support is the support department for all of their games. They have a total connection With Arena Net. NCI owns ANet. Arena Net is just the subsidiary company of NC Interactive that develops Guild Wars.

OP ~ At best they will mark this on the players account record. If this player recieves enough independent reports of abusive or disruptive behaviour they will probably recieve a temp ban and eventually a permanent ban.

The problem is with support and the fact that they answer all the game issues. They obviously don't play the games or have very good communication with the game development companies/teams. So in any given report you never know if you're going to get someone who know when to wield the ban stick and when to just record the situation. This is an irritation that people who play many of their games face (eg: Lineage, Lin 2, Guild Wars, etc.).

Warskull

Site Contributor

Join Date: Jul 2005

[out]

14 May 2006 at 18:39 - 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phades
Disconnect people who idle.
This is a pretty good solution, either that or just give nothing to a player who doesn't contribute a minimum amount.

Mercury Angel

Mercury Angel

Avatar of Gwen

Join Date: Apr 2005

Wandering my own road.

14 May 2006 at 18:43 - 17
The AFK bot problem is rampant in any competitive location where there is an appropriate reward of some kind, and I can especially see why they'd wish to do it in the competitive faction missions.

But it's also a problem in the arenas. If you go in for a good part of a day, you almost certainly WILL see 1-2 people per day in the arena again, and again, and again, who go AFK. They rely on their teams to either win, or to lose but kill a few enemies anyway, to max out their faction for the day.

I would hope that it's not all that hard to see that a player simply clicks the 'enter mission' button again, and again, and again, throughout the day and nothing else for many consecutive hours after being reported, unless the logs don't give very detailed information at all.

But the AFK-bot problem is truly a downer no matter where you're trying to play.

Mandy Memory

Mandy Memory

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

USA

Xen of Sigils [XoO]

W/

14 May 2006 at 19:10 - 18
They should have to be active within X seconds before a faction gain to actually gain the faction. Of course then the bots will move every X seconds...

Parson Brown

Parson Brown

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

In ur base...

The one true [Hope]

E/

14 May 2006 at 19:49 - 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fossa
It's probably hard to stop, however they could change the reward system. As it is now the losing side gets 200-400 faction and the winners 600 faction.

I've never seen this range. Every time I've done Aspenwood (still haven't been able to start a mission in Jade: No people) Winners always got 600 and losers always got 400.

Now I've never gone AFK, and I always monk to the best of my ability, but I admit I hardly care if my team wins or loses. I'd rather have 200 extra faction than not have it, but whatever.

Fossa

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2005

14 May 2006 at 20:05 - 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parson Brown
I've never seen this range. Every time I've done Aspenwood (still haven't been able to start a mission in Jade: No people) Winners always got 600 and losers always got 400.

Now I've never gone AFK, and I always monk to the best of my ability, but I admit I hardly care if my team wins or loses. I'd rather have 200 extra faction than not have it, but whatever.
I'm not really sure if it's time or enemies killed that counts for faction points, but you get max 400 when you lose, minimum might be even lower than 200. Lower the points for the loser side and there will be less faction bots.

Tainek

Tainek

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

[Rage]

14 May 2006 at 21:19 - 21
When ive been winning missions i've always got in the range of 740-790, and loosing 290-450, so theres probably some varaibles in there ( i use life a lot, healing 4-20/30 (NPC/Minions) people, so that would possibly explain why i get more than most

Evilsod

Evilsod

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2006

England

Lievs Death Squad [LDS]

14 May 2006 at 22:13 - 22
Surely if anything the faction received is based on the score your team has. You can't exactly rank it on kills, damage or health lost... otherwise you'd get 10000 faction just sprinting straight into the Base Defender for 10 minutes.

lightblade

lightblade

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

The Etereal Guard

Me/Mo

14 May 2006 at 22:31 - 23
do NOT complain unless you can offer a solution!!

jummeth

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

London

Diary of a Madman [SiKK]

14 May 2006 at 22:51 - 24
The reason ANet doesn't have an in-game report, like MANY games don't is that if they implimented it. The number of reports will skyrocket. And 99% of them are petty things like "He said he was a Heal Monk but was a smite" (ok too sarcastic, but you get the point.)

The reason NC/AN use the website is it gets rid of all but the most anal-retentive people and all but the most serious rule-breaking.


I'd that the AFK think can't really be resolved. There are always arguments, even if AN implimented a GM system, you can argue that you accidentally alt-tabbed or pressed the start menu button on your keyboard, and therefore unable to move. Since AN won't even punish rage quiters from 12v12 (where there are many ideas of detection and even fair punishment system suggested) I don't think that they will touch this issue.

guppy

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Mo/Me

14 May 2006 at 22:55 - 25
It's simply a game design flaw.. they can't fix it without hurting honest players. Nothing much can be done.

aspectacle

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2006

14 May 2006 at 23:30 - 26
I think if you notice that someone is repeatedly afk in matches (particularly in fort/quarry where is particularly obvious) report them even if you get those pointless discouraging canned support emails. If they get enough reports I hope that they use the ban stick.

They have to do something about it or they'll be hosting 8v8 afk bot matches where the Kurzick always win!

Demesis

Demesis

Banned

Join Date: May 2006

15 May 2006 at 00:18 - 27
But then again, if Anet doesn't want to act against it, I might as well join them and go AFK on these factions pvp missions. Saves me a hell of a lot of time. Plus, I don't have to worry about being a jerk, because 99% of people playing Guild Wars are already jerks anyway.

Oh wait, since Anet also doesn't want to do anything about the bots which are painfully obviously seen in Elona Reach.... I think I want to download a botting program as well.

If Anet doesn't want to do anything against those cheters then it's fine with me, because it gives me an excuse to become one of them.

Fossa

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2005

15 May 2006 at 00:24 - 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tainek
When ive been winning missions i've always got in the range of 740-790, and loosing 290-450, so theres probably some varaibles in there ( i use life a lot, healing 4-20/30 (NPC/Minions) people, so that would possibly explain why i get more than most
Interesting. I just harass people and turtles with my ranger (interupt, poison, blind etc.). I never got anything but 600 for winning.

Jormund

Jormund

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2005

Michigan

15 May 2006 at 00:30 - 29
Don't give up over NCSoft's crappy reply, this is something that people have gotten suspended and lost a character over. There was a thread a looong time ago at TGH where someone made a complaint thread because they lost their character (albiet only level 8) because they were reported for macroing and entering random arena for ~8 hours to gain levels (since this predated the Faction system, it was only good for experience). So yeah, something can get done .

generik

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

15 May 2006 at 02:58 - 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jormund
Don't give up over NCSoft's crappy reply, this is something that people have gotten suspended and lost a character over. There was a thread a looong time ago at TGH where someone made a complaint thread because they lost their character (albiet only level 8) because they were reported for macroing and entering random arena for ~8 hours to gain levels (since this predated the Faction system, it was only good for experience). So yeah, something can get done .
Snitch Wars.. the new Guild Wars

Fyre Brand

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

Shadowlight Order [SoR]

15 May 2006 at 03:45 - 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightblade
do NOT complain unless you can offer a solution!!
It's perfectly valid to bring up a problem and have a community develop a solution from discussion. Don't post if all you're going to do is flame and troll. You have nothing to offer.

A good solution that has been brought up before is for group/party leaders to be able to kick team members while in the instance. This would be good for PvP and PvE. We've all had members who are jerks and try and ruin the goal or just not do anything to ride on the coat tails of the group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by generik
Snitch Wars.. the new Guild Wars
And your point is?

Dbeck002

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

15 May 2006 at 03:56 - 32
Solution:

As soon as mission starts, a timer starts for every character and resets everytime the character moves or casts a spell.


If the timer does not reset in 3 minutes then the player is sent disconnected.


I agree, freeloaders make this game aggrivating.

But then again it is our responsibility not to let them in our team in the first place.

generik

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

15 May 2006 at 03:57 - 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyre Brand
And your point is?
You know precisely what my point is. I don't have to spell it out too clearly for you. I'd hate this game to turn into something where people would just launch complaints trying to get other players banned.. whether or not it is justly deserved.

And guess what? If that does come to pass support won't be able to validate claims as vigourously as they do now, and I really don't see anet hiring more people to handle the extra workload for something so non essential.

People freeload, get over it. Worse things happen in life.

Stabber

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Plane of Oblivion

Sigilum Sanguis [keep]

Me/W

15 May 2006 at 05:03 - 34
Solution: remove faction rewards for the losing side entirely.

Mr_T_bot

Mr_T_bot

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2006

15 May 2006 at 05:13 - 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabber
Solution: remove faction rewards for the losing side entirely.
Then no one will bother to finish out the game when they start losing significantly.

Argen

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2005

Shadow Nation [SN]

15 May 2006 at 05:20 - 36
Actually, hate to toss this one out there, but its not against the EULA to AFK during a match... it is against the EULA to use a bot though. So, it will be interesting to see if this one can get sorted out.

I really do have to say that this one isn't quite as important as the Elona Reach problem currently...

Eet GnomeSmasher

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2005

In my head

15 May 2006 at 05:39 - 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by generik
You know precisely what my point is. I don't have to spell it out too clearly for you. I'd hate this game to turn into something where people would just launch complaints trying to get other players banned.. whether or not it is justly deserved.

And guess what? If that does come to pass support won't be able to validate claims as vigourously as they do now, and I really don't see anet hiring more people to handle the extra workload for something so non essential.

People freeload, get over it. Worse things happen in life.
That's just stupid. If you really think ANET will ban someone who has been repeatedly reported by the same couple of people then you're a moron. You ever think they'd investigate it first? And if enough people are launching complaints against a single individual, wouldnt you think something was up with the reported individual? They only ban people after an investigation. And they probably only investigate after multiple reports from multiple people.

I can't believe you're really that idiotic to think that ANET wouldnt have thought of a safeguard against report abuse. That's like saying we shouldnt have jails because someone might accuse someone falsely so we should just let crime run rampant.

Duly Thankful

Academy Page

Join Date: Aug 2005

15 May 2006 at 08:53 - 38
Why not require that all players at the end of a match have to go to a NPC to collect their reward within a certain time limit? If anyone is AFK they won't go and will not collect anything. As soon as you collect your reward you leave the match. If you do not collect it within 60 seconds you leave the match with nothing.

Kaguya

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

Moon

Mo/

15 May 2006 at 08:57 - 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duly Thankful
Why not require that all players at the end of a match have to go to a NPC to collect their reward within a certain time limit? If anyone is AFK they won't go and will not collect anything. As soon as you collect your reward you leave the match. If you do not collect it within 60 seconds you leave the match with nothing.
That would work, and it's not much work for the 'honest people' to click on an NPC to receive their reward.

Kalki

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Summoners of Forgotten Gods

W/Mo

15 May 2006 at 09:11 - 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duly Thankful
Why not require that all players at the end of a match have to go to a NPC to collect their reward within a certain time limit? If anyone is AFK they won't go and will not collect anything. As soon as you collect your reward you leave the match. If you do not collect it within 60 seconds you leave the match with nothing.
Brilliant idea! It's both simple to implement and effective. Now let's hope Anet puts the fix in fast before these excellent missions get ruined, and legit players lose interest in them.

Before I read your idea I was going to suggest using a system that kinda worked in WoW, which is simply boot anyone flagged as afk while in a PvP Battleground. That was exploited too, because people would just hold down a move key and run into walls to keep from being flagged as afk.