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Originally Posted by RTSFirebat
Could you explain what you mean by "Learn to Kite", because I'm lost to that expression.
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Touch Ranger Nerf Idea
Yakumo
Evil_Greven
Wow, what sad players we have here. Listen, a couple things:
*Touch rangers aren't new. I made one in August 2005.
-Touch of Agony/Vampiric Touch/Plague Touch/Offering of Blood/Troll Unguent/Storm Chaser/Strip Enchantment/Rez sig was my old build. I learned a lot playing it, both counters and strengths. This old build I stopped playing with the OOB nerf. I haven't made a Touch Ranger since, however I've seen *few* factions variations in Random Arenas (why is this being said to be super common now?)
*Touch rangers die to kiting
-With Factions, there's two Vamps, but most builds DO NOT HAVE A DEGEN COUNTER. Elementalists, Mesmers, and Rangers can kill most of these touch rangers with two skills: A degen & a snare.
Please. Learn to play. I watched Last of Master playing his new touch ranger, and it was rather amusing. However, his build could not sustain itself against onslaught by multiple targets without outside healing. And with Escape, he had no energy management, so when he fought the Guild Lord WITH Bloodlight Blades, he had to rez Bloodlight Blades after he died because of lack of energy.
Even with 16, Vampiric Touch/Bite costs 5. With no energy recovery, and only 3 ticks of energy regeneration, you DO burn through it rather quickly. Believe me, I know.
*Touch rangers aren't new. I made one in August 2005.
-Touch of Agony/Vampiric Touch/Plague Touch/Offering of Blood/Troll Unguent/Storm Chaser/Strip Enchantment/Rez sig was my old build. I learned a lot playing it, both counters and strengths. This old build I stopped playing with the OOB nerf. I haven't made a Touch Ranger since, however I've seen *few* factions variations in Random Arenas (why is this being said to be super common now?)
*Touch rangers die to kiting
-With Factions, there's two Vamps, but most builds DO NOT HAVE A DEGEN COUNTER. Elementalists, Mesmers, and Rangers can kill most of these touch rangers with two skills: A degen & a snare.
Please. Learn to play. I watched Last of Master playing his new touch ranger, and it was rather amusing. However, his build could not sustain itself against onslaught by multiple targets without outside healing. And with Escape, he had no energy management, so when he fought the Guild Lord WITH Bloodlight Blades, he had to rez Bloodlight Blades after he died because of lack of energy.
Even with 16, Vampiric Touch/Bite costs 5. With no energy recovery, and only 3 ticks of energy regeneration, you DO burn through it rather quickly. Believe me, I know.
Lordhelmos
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Originally Posted by ChildeOfMalkav
I didnt see the match so I can't comment specifically. But it there is "ganking" involved then there is a problem with the game mechanics itself if a single player was allowed to slip through defenses undetected/unchallenged as you claim.
I think you're jumping to conclusions far too easily here... |
prism2525
Lordhelmos, pls read what other ppl said, there is a very possible counter to cope with touch rangers. I hate them too and in fact I made a build especially to counter it (I use diversion, a 10/3/10 spell which sends touchers flying). Of course it has skills to help me survive other types of builds too.
The point is: Touch rangers are just a new build who are living their max period of godlike-looking the same way as IWAY did. So just take a look at the skills and put 2 and 2 together.
The point is: Touch rangers are just a new build who are living their max period of godlike-looking the same way as IWAY did. So just take a look at the skills and put 2 and 2 together.
Beat_Go_Stick
Just remove Vamp Bite. There's no real reason there should be a duplicate of it when there is a Mesmer elite that is elite because it does that very thing. Why did they create duplicate skills anyway? It seems silly and created this whole issue...
Robin_Anadri
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Originally Posted by Everybody Pwned By Touchers
Whine, whine, whine. Cry, cry, cry.
Mommy, mommy, the bad ranger touched me in my no-no place! I can't be bothered to come up with a way to defeat a FotM build! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!! |
Kite. Degen. E-denial. Diversion. Knockdown. Snare. Signet of Humility.
If you can't take the heat, stay out of the arena. Quit asking Mommy Anet to nerf two entire character classes because you don't understand that in PvP you have to be ready for whatever the other side throws at you.
Which is why touch ranger teams eventually aren't viable, because they are very specialized and won't hold halls or go very far in GvG. And if you lose to touchers? That means your team wasn't worthy of winning.
Grow up.
Undivine
I will be merging two threads together. Please please PLEASE use the search and the Index of Ideas before you post your suggestion.
yesitsrob
So like... I am not reading through all this thread... but based on the original post.
Touch Rangers don't need nerfing or anything changing, they are a scrub build that don't actually work against anyone decent, all they are good for is beating people in random arenas who refuse to kite
Touch Rangers don't need nerfing or anything changing, they are a scrub build that don't actually work against anyone decent, all they are good for is beating people in random arenas who refuse to kite
Evil_Greven
Lordhelmos,
Hmm, I must have seen a different match. In any case, an assassin (ex: Nox The Ninja from Black Widow) was able to do the exact same thing, and I believe he's soloed a guild lord or two. I've seen warriors kill all NPCs in bases, and even the guild lord. What's different?
Because you have irrational hatred for this build.
Hmm, I must have seen a different match. In any case, an assassin (ex: Nox The Ninja from Black Widow) was able to do the exact same thing, and I believe he's soloed a guild lord or two. I've seen warriors kill all NPCs in bases, and even the guild lord. What's different?
Because you have irrational hatred for this build.
lyra_song
I think one think i should re-mention, in case it got lost is this:
R/N do not have hex removal. Their counter to hexes would be Melandru's Resilience or Nature's renewal. One fades quickly and takes up an elite, the other can be avoided.
R/N do not have hex removal. Their counter to hexes would be Melandru's Resilience or Nature's renewal. One fades quickly and takes up an elite, the other can be avoided.
ChildeOfMalkav
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Originally Posted by Lordhelmos
It was simple. Evil waited for VoD but WaRM knew it was gonna happen. They barred EviL's guild lord in the base with spirits. The last prides toucher used escape to rush past the crowd, ran all the way across the map and killed the guild lord almost by himself before another player came in for support. To see a class charge all the way across the map with escape, (which means speed and evasion 50/75% or something like that.) and damage down the guild lord to half like within 2 minutes after the rush by himself AND barely taking any damage.
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Uhh first, how is the running straight to the Guild Lord related to Touch skills themselves? A warrior could also run straight to the GL too. Heck anyone with run skills can do that. So I dont know why you brought up the point that the guy was able to speed through to the GL.
Second, NPCs are VERY easy to kill. Again, any character built to kill NPCs can do it. Hell, I've "almost" killed the GL by myself a few times too. Most people built for it can also scout the map and kill NPCs solo too. I dont know why you think that it's such an accomplishment to do so. Go do some scrimmage to mess around killing NPCs and you'll see how easy it is.
Basically this is my long winded way of saying, PLENTY of classes/combos can do what you described the Touch Ranger was doing in that match. That in no way means that they're overpowered.
Janus_Zeal
/signed
They require little to no skill on the gamers part, I have no tolerance for builds like that. Becuase of this fact, the game is flooded with them. At least make them somehow more difficult to play, so there will be less of them.
They require little to no skill on the gamers part, I have no tolerance for builds like that. Becuase of this fact, the game is flooded with them. At least make them somehow more difficult to play, so there will be less of them.
Kijik Oni Hanryuu
/notsigned this is almost as bad as the 'sin nerf stuff, just cuz you dunno how to counter doesn't mean it should go away, besides touch rangers are easy to counter X.X trust me I know I played as one, all they had to do is have a decent monk and someone else to degen/ focus fire.. easy to counter.
Robin_Anadri
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Originally Posted by Janus_Zeal
/signed
They require little to no skill on the gamers part, I have no tolerance for builds like that. Becuase of this fact, the game is flooded with them. At least make them somehow more difficult to play, so there will be less of them. |
I love all the people saying that playing a touch ranger requires no skill. Because you hit two skills multiple times?
I guess boon/prot monks don't require skill either, after all you just hit divine boon then spam RoF and Guardian. Guess we should nerf boon prots, cause they require no skill.
Oh, and warriors. They just pick a target and run up and hit their attack skills over and over when their energy and adrenaline is rercharged, guess we've got another candidate for nerfage because there's no skill involved there.
Oh, and elementalists. They just use Glyph of Renewal/Meteor Storm over and over. Guess we ought to nerf those unskilled bastards as well.
Minion masters are no-skill classes too I guess, all they ever do is use animate spells and then spam BotM. Guess we have to nerf them too.
I could go on, but I won't. You either get the point, or you're too caught up in your inflated ego and hurt pride at your precious UberTank getting pwned by a mere.... ranger! Oh noes!!!
Janus_Zeal
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Originally Posted by Robin
I could go on, but I won't. You either get the point, or you're too caught up in your inflated ego and hurt pride at your precious UberTank getting pwned by a mere.... ranger! Oh noes!!!
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When I get owned by full teams of warriors or full teams of boon protect monks, then I'll stop and say "okay, maybe I was wrong". Until then, I'll still feel the same way I do about touch rangers.
By the way, did I somehow insult you by saying that touch rangers require no skill?
Gargle Blaster
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Originally Posted by Kijik Oni Hanryuu
/notsigned this is almost as bad as the 'sin nerf stuff, just cuz you dunno how to counter doesn't mean it should go away, besides touch rangers are easy to counter X.X trust me I know I played as one, all they had to do is have a decent monk and someone else to degen/ focus fire.. easy to counter.
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please read the first post - i know how to counter touch rangers - the problem is that they are not balanced.
Lordhelmos
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Originally Posted by ChildeOfMalkav
Sorry, I cut down your quote because it was a bit long...but I read all of it. Basically what you've said is that Touch Rangers should be nerfed because one guy ran all the way across to the Guild Lord untouched and "almost" kill him by himself?
Uhh first, how is the running straight to the Guild Lord related to Touch skills themselves? A warrior could also run straight to the GL too. Heck anyone with run skills can do that. So I dont know why you brought up the point that the guy was able to speed through to the GL. Second, NPCs are VERY easy to kill. Again, any character built to kill NPCs can do it. Hell, I've "almost" killed the GL by myself a few times too. Most people built for it can also scout the map and kill NPCs solo too. I dont know why you think that it's such an accomplishment to do so. Go do some scrimmage to mess around killing NPCs and you'll see how easy it is. Basically this is my long winded way of saying, PLENTY of classes/combos can do what you described the Touch Ranger was doing in that match. That in no way means that they're overpowered. |
Zui
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| However because of these builds being overly abused just players that want to score an easy wins the entire overall level of fun in PvP just isnt there anymore IMO. This is just an opinion, maybe an explanation to my recent posts. Arguement Closed, im not going to comment any more on this subject. |
generik
Blah blah blah...
Yadda yadda yadda...
There is no such thing as imbalance in this game.
Even if there is an ele skill that spikes for 1000 dmg with no cast time, no recharge, and no energy cost, it is STILL not an imbalance.
Because guess what?
The same option is available to YOU too. Don't want to "exploit" it?
Well I am sure that's what all losers say.
Yadda yadda yadda...
There is no such thing as imbalance in this game.
Even if there is an ele skill that spikes for 1000 dmg with no cast time, no recharge, and no energy cost, it is STILL not an imbalance.
Because guess what?
The same option is available to YOU too. Don't want to "exploit" it?
Well I am sure that's what all losers say.
RTSFirebat
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Originally Posted by generik
Blah blah blah...
Yadda yadda yadda... There is no such thing as imbalance in this game. Even if there is an ele skill that spikes for 1000 dmg with no cast time, no recharge, and no energy cost, it is STILL not an imbalance. Because guess what? The same option is available to YOU too. Don't want to "exploit" it? Well I am sure that's what all losers say. |
Dr Strangelove
Something that can make swiss cheese of a warrior isn't overpowered, it's balanced. Or did you think your warrior was the only one allowed to do ridiculous DPS? Warrior routinely hit my monk for well over 65 damage, I fail to see a problem here.
I usually just ignore touchies. Their damage is healed away easily enough, and since they lack interrupts they're really not that big a threat. As the battle goes on, they will run out of energy and not spam quite so much, leaving me able to push them over the edge.
I usually just ignore touchies. Their damage is healed away easily enough, and since they lack interrupts they're really not that big a threat. As the battle goes on, they will run out of energy and not spam quite so much, leaving me able to push them over the edge.
vaxmor
touch rangers are not overpowered.
Its fine - learn2play.
hint1: kite
hint2: snares
hint3: degen
Its fine - learn2play.
hint1: kite
hint2: snares
hint3: degen
Janus_Zeal
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Originally Posted by LordHelmos
I'm going to recall my arguement on this due to the fact that I'm really just upset with seeing so many people use the same build rather than having the build be unfair. As you know theres no nerf for stupid people with no imagination or creativity to come up with something different.
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Evilsod
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Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster
wha? it takes 3 people to takeout one touch ranger -that is balanced how?
please read the first post - i know how to counter touch rangers - the problem is that they are not balanced. |
It takes 500 Anticaster Mesmers to kill a Warrior, lets nerf the Warrior! It takes 1 Anticaster Mesmer to kill a Caster, nerf the Mesmer! Overpowered!
It takes 1 Cry of Fustration to destroy a spike, nerf it! It takes 1 Shields Up to destroy a Ranger Spike, nerf it!
You see where i'm going with this?
Rusty Deth
Yeah they are a joke...and so is this complaint...
So Touch Rangers are the build of the month and someone wants it nerfed. Boo Hoo Hoo.
I see no reason why Anet should nerf something just cause people haven;t learned the awesome power of interrupting and think this game is all about damage.
wanna kill a Touch Ranger, Echo Diversion and Bite and Touch are gone. Don't have Diversion? Then what are you doing playing PvP.
So Touch Rangers are the build of the month and someone wants it nerfed. Boo Hoo Hoo.
I see no reason why Anet should nerf something just cause people haven;t learned the awesome power of interrupting and think this game is all about damage.
wanna kill a Touch Ranger, Echo Diversion and Bite and Touch are gone. Don't have Diversion? Then what are you doing playing PvP.
Gargle Blaster
PLEASE WILL YOU PEOPLE READ THE FIRST POST AND RESPOND TO IT AND THE IDEAS IN IT!!! I AM NOT TRYING TO KILL THE BUILD --- all i want is blind to work on them. its more of a ele / mesmer buff than a touchranger nerf.Evilsod, yes i know how to counter a touch ranger... i was not saying that it takes 3 people -the post i was responding to said that... please dont take me out of context.
Dravyn
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| yes...make it so necromancers are at the complete mercy of backfire. |
Its funny to hear all the people defending Touch Rangers. Learn to kite..stupidest response yet. Learn to be quiet, how about that.
Wild blow...good idea..if a warrior could afford to bring it..but 99% of the time we can't. Take a long hard look at what a warrior needs to bring to battle just to be able to do dmg to monks and everybody else..while we're at it, Touch Rangers can dish the pain like no other and heal themselves while dedicating only two skill slots to damage and healing! Yea, that's balance..
No Touch Rangers in GvG or Ally battles..wake up? Yes there are..and they're doing quite well.
Warriors especially are cannon fodder for these guys, I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of the complaints come from warriors, and maybe assassins, because there's very little warriors can do to survive Touch Rangers without dedicated monk healing.
However, wild blow not withstanding, I figured out a Warrior/Necro build that can beat Touch Rangers and I'm having a blast with it because of the freaking huge numbers of Touch Rangers in RA/TA these days. I don't win everytime, because no matter what the naysayers spam in these threads, Touch Rangers are dangerous, they are overpowered, and they are imbalanced. But I win more than I lose now, 1 on 1 with a touch ranger..when there's only one...when..
/Signed..RA is ruined, TA is ruined, and I understand that the elite among us disdain such simple pursuits, but those of us that don't do GvG every day would like some pvp balance in the quick fight arenas. There's nothing left but Touch Rangers. No thanks
lyra_song
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Originally Posted by Dravyn
So? Warriors are at the mercy of everything...
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Dravyn
Sure..against a soft target with no defensive buffs that's ignoring you so you can spam frenzy...
Warriors are only as good as their healer. You can be the most damaging force on the field, subject to not being crippled, blinded, weakened, degen stacked touched to death or reactive trigger damaged. Last I checked, blind didn't keep my ele from dishing the pain, cripple didn't keep my necro from bringing people down, etc and so on. Warriors have to plan carefully and in order to be the most damaging force on the field they pretty much have to sacrifice any and all defense, unlike any other class in the game. Don't get me wrong, I love my warrior..but its too easy to shut us down. We are far more dependant on having a monk than any other class in the game.
Warriors are only as good as their healer. You can be the most damaging force on the field, subject to not being crippled, blinded, weakened, degen stacked touched to death or reactive trigger damaged. Last I checked, blind didn't keep my ele from dishing the pain, cripple didn't keep my necro from bringing people down, etc and so on. Warriors have to plan carefully and in order to be the most damaging force on the field they pretty much have to sacrifice any and all defense, unlike any other class in the game. Don't get me wrong, I love my warrior..but its too easy to shut us down. We are far more dependant on having a monk than any other class in the game.
JR
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Originally Posted by Dravyn
We are far more dependant on having a monk than any other class in the game.
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And Warriors have no more hate than any other class, it is just more justified to bring Warrior hate as it is likely to be more usefull in mitigating damage.
Evilsod
Dravyn, you've never heard of Dazed have you? If they don't carry Mend Ailment or CoP that condition can bring Boon Prots down, never mind making an Ele, Mesmer or Necro useless.
Are you trying to say that by spamming Vampiric Touch/Bite (yes the duplicate skill thing is unbalanced) and causing damage then using the rest of your build to keep yourself alive should be nerfed? If you divert 1 single skill thats half there build gone, if you divert Executioners Strike, big deal? You can work round it.
Its quite amusing how Warriors primarily are the ones whinging that because they can be taken down by an Touch Ranger they should instantly get the nerf bat. Can't you take a bit of competition?
Its just ironic that possibly the best character to counter them is a Mesmer. Hell anything with a snare can... If you kill the rest of his team then all go to work on him you must suck if you can't kill him surely!
It seems Warriors just don't like been taken down as fast as any other 'soft' target. And whats wrong with carrying Wild Blow? You say that you can quite easily lose vs 1, yet you don't bring the skill thats most threatening to one? You could always go W/Me and start the fight with Wild Blow and Blackout
Are you trying to say that by spamming Vampiric Touch/Bite (yes the duplicate skill thing is unbalanced) and causing damage then using the rest of your build to keep yourself alive should be nerfed? If you divert 1 single skill thats half there build gone, if you divert Executioners Strike, big deal? You can work round it.
Its quite amusing how Warriors primarily are the ones whinging that because they can be taken down by an Touch Ranger they should instantly get the nerf bat. Can't you take a bit of competition?
Its just ironic that possibly the best character to counter them is a Mesmer. Hell anything with a snare can... If you kill the rest of his team then all go to work on him you must suck if you can't kill him surely!
It seems Warriors just don't like been taken down as fast as any other 'soft' target. And whats wrong with carrying Wild Blow? You say that you can quite easily lose vs 1, yet you don't bring the skill thats most threatening to one? You could always go W/Me and start the fight with Wild Blow and Blackout
Criminally Sane
The fact that this is still going simply shows that some of you are as terrible at reading as you are at playing the game. The only thing I see that needs nerfing is the rampant stupidity that plagues these boards. Any time there's a build that comes up that beats someone because they don't know how to kite or work as a team, "nerf plx" is the first thing they say. Look, the build has its counters, just like any other. It's about as overpowered as a healing hands wammo. <.< You bring counters to IWAY to HA, so bring them to RA for touch rangers.
In my opinion, IWAY didn't really need a nerf, since the same counters that could beat it prenerf still apply today. All you need is teamwork and to not suck at the game. It weeded out the bad teams from HA, like touch rangers do from RA now. Bleh... I'm just going to sit here and laugh because another build gets nerfed due to people not knowing how to play.
In my opinion, IWAY didn't really need a nerf, since the same counters that could beat it prenerf still apply today. All you need is teamwork and to not suck at the game. It weeded out the bad teams from HA, like touch rangers do from RA now. Bleh... I'm just going to sit here and laugh because another build gets nerfed due to people not knowing how to play.
Siddious
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Originally Posted by Criminally Sane
The fact that this is still going simply shows that some of you are as terrible at reading as you are at playing the game. The only thing I see that needs nerfing is the rampant stupidity that plagues these boards. Any time there's a build that comes up that beats someone because they don't know how to kite or work as a team, "nerf plx" is the first thing they say. Look, the build has its counters, just like any other. It's about as overpowered as a healing hands wammo. <.< You bring counters to IWAY to HA, so bring them to RA for touch rangers.
In my opinion, IWAY didn't really need a nerf, since the same counters that could beat it prenerf still apply today. All you need is teamwork and to not suck at the game. It weeded out the bad teams from HA, like touch rangers do from RA now. Bleh... I'm just going to sit here and laugh because another build gets nerfed due to people not knowing how to play. |
Guitary Boy
Touch rangers are very annoying i know, but a half decent mesmer, e.g myself( or so i like to think ) can end a touch ranger in the space of 12 seconds...diversion ftw, so can a smite monk with scourge sacrifice, scourge sacrifice + awaken the blood on offering of blood will nearly kill you. Same goes with e surge mesmers. I agree they should be nerfed...make vampiric bite and vampiric touch spells....or attacks or somthing, if they make them spells, normal users would not be effected in the slightest, if anything benefited, and touchrangers are ended.
) can end a touch ranger in the space of 12 seconds...diversion ftw, so can a smite monk with scourge sacrifice, scourge sacrifice + awaken the blood on offering of blood will nearly kill you. Same goes with e surge mesmers. I agree they should be nerfed...make vampiric bite and vampiric touch spells....or attacks or somthing, if they make them spells, normal users would not be effected in the slightest, if anything benefited, and touchrangers are ended.
Gneppe
1 good counter:
Run Away FFS.. so easy.. OhH noEs he used Storm Chaser or other speed buff.( The attacks does like 60 dmg each..) RUN AWAY kill him.. I pwned 1 as a MONK.. (lol i was smiter he thought i was healer..) Touch!! SMITE!!!!!!! broken fingers dead Ranger
Run Away FFS.. so easy.. OhH noEs he used Storm Chaser or other speed buff.( The attacks does like 60 dmg each..) RUN AWAY kill him.. I pwned 1 as a MONK.. (lol i was smiter he thought i was healer..) Touch!! SMITE!!!!!!! broken fingers dead Ranger
milias
/Notsigned
Touch rangers are fine the way they are.
Touch rangers are fine the way they are.
Retribution
I bet most of the cries for extreme nerf are paladins who didn't get saved by their mending or healing hands, and had their sever artery and gash reversed on them.
ChildeOfMalkav
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Originally Posted by generik
Blah blah blah...
Yadda yadda yadda... There is no such thing as imbalance in this game. Even if there is an ele skill that spikes for 1000 dmg with no cast time, no recharge, and no energy cost, it is STILL not an imbalance. Because guess what? The same option is available to YOU too. Don't want to "exploit" it? Well I am sure that's what all losers say. |
It never ceases to amaze me how much you complain about things and then uses such ridiculous and idiotic arguments to back it up. And manage to sound like an asshat too...
Terra Xin
/notsigned
though, there are no counters to life stealing, only life sacrificing. Someone wanna dig up that scourage sacrifice skill^^.
though, there are no counters to life stealing, only life sacrificing. Someone wanna dig up that scourage sacrifice skill^^.
Minus Sign
Necro: SS+degen curses
Monk: kite+self heal
Ranger: snare+whatever you want
Warrior: Knockdown+…need I say more?
Mesmer: Degen+Edenial (and yes, skill interrupts do work if you’re quick) or if you're feeling particualrly nasty, Diversion and Blackout
Ritualist: CHANNELING
Assassin: Chain+teleport
Elementalist: Kite within AoE spell radius (Meteor, hint hint) or spike the little monkey.
There you go. A counter for every proffession. Now, what was the problem?
Oh yes, I remember. Should Vamp skills be attack skills. I don't see why not. Some R/Ns change to A/Ns for the Critical hits.
Monk: kite+self heal
Ranger: snare+whatever you want
Warrior: Knockdown+…need I say more?
Mesmer: Degen+Edenial (and yes, skill interrupts do work if you’re quick) or if you're feeling particualrly nasty, Diversion and Blackout
Ritualist: CHANNELING
Assassin: Chain+teleport
Elementalist: Kite within AoE spell radius (Meteor, hint hint) or spike the little monkey.
There you go. A counter for every proffession. Now, what was the problem?
Oh yes, I remember. Should Vamp skills be attack skills. I don't see why not. Some R/Ns change to A/Ns for the Critical hits.