Best defense stance (or not stance, that is the question) ?

Themis

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2005

LcB

Mo/Me

21 May 2006 at 00:18 - 1

You all know Mesmers are among the top priority targets, especially in TA, GvG, HA. Moreover, i respect my Monks (being often a Monk myself

), i don't like being their main healing target...

We have a few stances for defending ourselves, though : Distortion, Mantras of various shapes and colors... But with the new skills, and especially with the new professions since Factions, perhaps there're better solutions ?

i've seen a few Assassin stances (in the Shadow Arts line) :

Dark escape (cost 5, rech 30) : Stance. For 5-13 seconds, you move 25% faster and take half damage. Dark Escape ends if you successfully hit with an attack.

Viper's defense (cost 5, rech 10) : Stance. For 30 seconds, the next time you are struck you are teleported to a nearby random location. The foe who struck you is Poisoned for 5-17 seconds.

Shadow of haste (cost 10, rech 30) : Stance. For 5-17 seconds you move 25% faster than normal. When Shadow of Haste ends, you return to the location where you activated Shadow of Haste.

They're (obviously) not perfect, there're (certainly) other solutions. Any opinions ?

Hella Good

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2005

None, free and clear

21 May 2006 at 00:50 - 2

I believe Dark Escape is quickly becoming a favorite for Mesmers in GvG. Check out a few high ranked games, if there is a Me/A he will probably be carring Dark Escape. I don't like the random teleportation one- it's like playing with dice, it might send you directly into the jaws of the shark, which is never a good place to be (unless you are a Cleaner fish but that's a whole different story). Shadow of Haste is... well, you need to know very well where you want to be and what you want to be doing when it starts and when it ends. You can use this to run in and Blackout a Monk. I still think Dark Escape is probably the best one.

fatboyslimerr

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

U.K

Intensive Care Unit [ICU]

Me/A

21 May 2006 at 08:42 - 3

Yeh, I've seen Dark Escape used nicely by top ranked guildies. Their Me/A suddenly starts to take major warrior damage or ele damage, and since its not important that mesmers use their staff damage, dark escape is a perfect way to make you last longer since you take half damage and you can almost out run a warrior (lasts longer than sprint). I dunno if you need to invest majorily into shadow arts to make it work good and I dunno if it triggers if you cast a spell. Does that count as attacking ??, I don't think it does but if anyone knows ??

Non assassin wise, distortion is great at 14 domination (so you only lose 1 energy). If your Me/Mo (I have some prot points) guardian is a good option and doesn't make you lose energy but it is an enchantment and can be easily removed.

Armor of mist is another idea but you have to invest to deep into water magic to make it worth while, so I don't consider it.

To be honest I don't use stances as a mesmer. I try to spam spirit of failure plus reckless haste (thanks for build hella) and thats like 70% chance to miss and when they do you gain energy.

Just some ideas

sno

Look into the Eye.

Join Date: Oct 2005

Detroit, Mi

Oh No Not These Guys [uhoh]

Mo/

21 May 2006 at 09:09 - 4

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatboyslimerr

and I dunno if it triggers if you cast a spell. Does that count as attacking?

No, it doesn't count as attacking.

Quote: Non assassin wise, distortion is great at 14 domination (so you only lose 1 energy). Illusion, not domination.

Quote: If your Me/Mo (I have some prot points) guardian is a good option and doesn't make you lose energy but it is an enchantment and can be easily removed. guardian requires too many points in prot to be effective, distortion is way better, always.

Quote:

Armor of mist is another idea but you have to invest to deep into water magic to make it worth while, so I don't consider it. dark escape > armor of mist

Quote:

To be honest I don't use stances as a mesmer. I try to spam spirit of failure plus reckless haste (thanks for build hella) and thats like 70% chance to miss and when they do you gain energy. that's only useful if you're going to be an anti-melee mesmer. If you're going for monk-shutdown, or any sort of caster hate (ie. interupts) you don't have time to sit there and shut down the warriors. The idea behind distortion (or dark escape) is that you can quickly defend yourself if necessary, to avoid death

Imo, if you can afford all the points into illusion, go with distortion for sure. Otherwise dark escape is a very viable option, provided you don't need to use your secondary for anything else.

fatboyslimerr

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

U.K

Intensive Care Unit [ICU]

Me/A

21 May 2006 at 10:30 - 5

Sorry I meant illusion not domination.
I use spirit of failure as my main energy gain in combo with my teams hex spammer so it isn't easily removed. I consider it a cast and forget about it spell. As in I can cast it on a couple of warriors (5 second recharge with MoR) then get down to some anti monking. Refreshing every 30-40 seconds or something. And since power leak is pretty much the best e-denial skill ever I only need to use it + shame then I can mvoe onto some anti warrioring using spirit of failure then return to that monk.

I agree distortion is way better than armor of mist, that was just an idea.
But for domination mesmer (with a few points in protection prayers) guardian is my only option really. I'll work out attributes to boost it later but its better than nothing.

So yeh, as sno said, dark escape is pretty much the best since mesmers don't need to attack to do their job, so you can keep up only taking half damage which will piss warriors right off, and hopefully mean they won't target you anymore. Plus its a speed buff so u can run away and even by secondary flag runner in GvGs.

Terra Xin

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Mar 2006

New Zealand

Me/R

21 May 2006 at 11:22 - 6

I'm trying to anticipate the likelihood of what element a person is most likely to be in pvp... I've narrowed it down to lightning and fire... mantras

I'm so happy they doubled the energy gain to 2... oh wo...

Greater conflagration + mantra of flame is good... but you have to be a ranger or ranger secondary.... like.... pfft.

SkyeFerina

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

Bath, UK

Heroic Order

Me/E

21 May 2006 at 11:45 - 7

I play Domination mesmers in PvP, and use /E secondary so I basically have to rely on the monk in PvP which I hate. Anyone reckon they should put some sort of defensive skill into the Domination line? Trying to think how it would keep in the "spirit" of Domination magic... are any of the Mantras worth taking in peoples experience?

Themis

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2005

LcB

Mo/Me

21 May 2006 at 11:51 - 8

As i stated in another thread, GC+Mantra of flame is very good indeed (except that experienced W will switch to a non-elementary weapon... anyway).
You should have GC casted by a R primary at beginning of battle, and battlefield needs to be rather small (not good on GvG, for instance). Works fine in HA.

I've even seen GC along with Winter : this allows Mantra to be triggered on almost all types of damage. But once more, experienced opponents will consider these spirits as top priority targets... leaving you without any defense.

fatboyslimerr

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

U.K

Intensive Care Unit [ICU]

Me/A

21 May 2006 at 11:51 - 9

They should make a skill similar to venegence (smiting prayers), kinda like empathy as well so whenever you get attacked that person takes the same amount of damage they hit you for. Could be called mirror and could be an elite. Or some kind of enchantment, whenever you are attacked in melee, you block that attack and lose 2 energy or something similar to distortion but your guarenteed to block and so lose more energy.

The Great Conflagation + Mantra of Flame would work but in GvG the GC spirit would be noticed and killled quickly. The only mantras used are resolve (for trappers) and persistance (for illusion degen hexers)

Hella Good

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2005

None, free and clear

21 May 2006 at 15:51 - 10

I think SV/AV (whatever you wanna call it these days) is a great War disabler. Yea, if they are smart, they switch targets, but seriously majority of Wars just keep banging on you. I think I'm gonna play around with Dark Escape, I find the Assassin protection skills very interesting and definitely less demanding on the nrg than Distortion is.

fatboyslimerr

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

U.K

Intensive Care Unit [ICU]

Me/A

21 May 2006 at 15:54 - 11

Whats SV/AV ?? I'm useless with remembering initials and abbreviations.

Hella Good

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2005

None, free and clear

21 May 2006 at 19:26 - 12

Sympathetic/Ancestral Visage.

fatboyslimerr

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

U.K

Intensive Care Unit [ICU]

Me/A

21 May 2006 at 22:06 - 13

I've seen top mesmers using aura of displacement to simply retreat miles away when they are getting bashed a lot. Thats one option and wouldn't require any points in assassin since its general spell. Could be great for flag running, possibly. Its just something a bit different. One second warrior is bashing away at a mesmer, then next his targets disappeared into thin air, true mesmer style. Great stuff

Eaimirth Etaivella

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Seekers of the Apocalypse

21 May 2006 at 23:21 - 14

I have given serious consideration to A.parry; although elite is completely disables a warrior/ranger/whatever might be bashing on you.

0% chance for ranger interrupts this way; which is nice.

fatboyslimerr

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

U.K

Intensive Care Unit [ICU]

Me/A

22 May 2006 at 11:43 - 15

gwonline.net doesn't make entirely sure what A.Parry does. Does it cost 1 adrenaline to use and you block the next attack used against you and gain 4 adrenaline (with no recharge time) so it can be spammed with no worry about energy ? Basically self sustaining block skill ? I reckon you don't even need that much tactics for it too work well so it probably is a good option. Might give it a try

Eaimirth Etaivella

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Seekers of the Apocalypse

22 May 2006 at 13:38 - 16

Too bad it doesn't charge itself; but your attack speed is close enough to the warriors with a +10% speed attacking wand; so you can spam it indefinatly due to its 1 sec recharge.

With 9/10 tactics many more options open
Bonneti's defence
Reposite spam

fatboyslimerr

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

U.K

Intensive Care Unit [ICU]

Me/A

22 May 2006 at 13:42 - 17

I wouldn't want to use too many other warrior skills, and thus lose affectiveness as a mesmer. I'm thinking of a. parry as a one off, great defense skill. You can just wand attack for a bit, since it only costs 1 adrenaline, while its recharging, then use it.

But if it doesn't recharge itself it becomes slightly less spamable. I wouldn't use this on my GvG mesmer, this would be a HA build special I think. MoR is too good not to use in GvGs.

Eaimirth Etaivella

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Seekers of the Apocalypse

22 May 2006 at 14:16 - 18

You know my take on MoR ^_~;
Yet this is imo a broken skill...disables a war; and its over
1 skill; useless warrior...broken

SkyeFerina

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

Bath, UK

Heroic Order

Me/E

22 May 2006 at 15:52 - 19

I'm sure it doesn't work like this in practice but Shadow of Haste has potential as a great kiting skill, I'm going to try it just for fun.

See the dumb warrior lumbering after you, SoH and leg it. He uses Sprint to stay with you, so kite him away to a forgotten corner of the battlefield...then pop-up behind him, wave, and carry on with what you were doing. Said warrior resolves his anger on a nearby inanimate object, and dejectedly trudges back, dragging his axe behind him.

Eaimirth Etaivella

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Seekers of the Apocalypse

22 May 2006 at 15:57 - 20

Unless they see you use it; wait at the point where you used it; then adren spike your face ='(

However recall works for that purpose as well; except without the adren spiking part.

Hella Good

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2005

None, free and clear

22 May 2006 at 16:02 - 21

Yeh, I used to kill Assas in randoms like that. Just wait patiently at the location they used it at and have breakfast rdy when they come back.

Eaimirth Etaivella

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Seekers of the Apocalypse

22 May 2006 at 16:35 - 22

Be sure to set the table =p
(with traps of course; precasting aoe etc.)

SkyeFerina

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

Bath, UK

Heroic Order

Me/E

22 May 2006 at 17:53 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkyeFerina

I'm sure it doesn't work like this in practice I realise it has a glaring weakness as you've described. It just provided me with an amusing daydream being that I'm at work and can't play! I reckon it would still be fun for a significant numer of warriors...do they really have enough savvy to wait where you cast it?

As an aside, does anyone have any experience using water magic for defence? I'm Me/E Domination and use GoR as my elite at the moment, but am sorely in need of something to keep the W's off my case. Every skill not in Dom weakens the build, but I'm going to see how I go with one defensive skill.

I was thinking along the lines of Ice Prison...with a few points in Water Magic it gives 10s of slowdown for 10 energy, recharge 30. If a warrior was particularly persistent then double cast, he'd hopefully be very bored by that point. Negation when struck by fire is huge drawback....from Illusion line Imagined Burden is 15 energy and Ethereal is just too slow to cast; Distortion is very energy intensive at low levels and also doesn't solve the problem of putting some distance between you and your nemesis.

Sorry it's a bit off topic, I can make a new post if needed.

fatboyslimerr

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

U.K

Intensive Care Unit [ICU]

Me/A

22 May 2006 at 18:38 - 24

SkyeFerina, several options.

In GvG when I play domination mesmer I don't take any healing or defense but when I'm getting bashed by a warrior (we use TS) I tell my mesmer buddy to wack -10 degen on him + images of remorse. Muhahaha. I also like blackout to piss off warriors soo much they leave you alone.

In HA or some other PvP, I'm seriously considering auspicious parry at the moment. Its quite spammable only requiring one adrenaline and 1 second recharge and will block the next attack used against you.

As water ele, I'd boost water attri and use armor of mist and shard storm or something, to make you run faster (+ armor) and make them run slower, so you can get away.

Another option for GvG, is that your team has a crippling shot ranger. (Using TS) when your gettin' bashed by warriors, tell your ranger and he can cripple them allowing you to get away. Crippling and running away is the best anti warrior (other than blinding or hexing) and it usually pisses them off so they'll target someone else.

Bit off topic - mehh not really. Who says a mesmer needs stances anyway if they're well supported. For HA stances are probably more recommended though.

Eaimirth Etaivella

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Seekers of the Apocalypse

22 May 2006 at 20:29 - 25

If you are going to use water magic; make sure you have duel attunments to back it up.
Blinding mist is the best answer to a warrior without slowing him down (due to its hex status instead of condition) while staying in the water magic line.
Armor of the mists is a powerful skill; but I would give armor of frost another look.
The important thing to keep in mind is that you don't have to dodge "all" of the warrior's attacks; only the ones that hurt like hell (evisricate; etc.). 9 out of 10 times; he is going to have an adren spike ready. Cry of frustration the "evil" attack then disable him (mists whatever) if he catches you off guard (via poping out of no where). If you see him running towards you; A. make sure he never gets there, or B. make sure he can't accomplish his goal when he gets there.

Personally I like option A; as you are not in "panic mode" if he is cured of hexs/conditions and in your face with an adren spike.

fatboyslimerr

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

U.K

Intensive Care Unit [ICU]

Me/A

22 May 2006 at 21:56 - 26

I just prefer to spam blackout till he or she gets bored of not having any adrenaline

They think they're finally got enough adrenaline for eviscerate/executioners combo e.g. death on a stick so they run upto you for the finishing blows but oh dear whats that you blacked them out first and they've lost all adrenaline awwwwwww, what a sad story. Muhahahahahahaha.

Its not actually that good warrior management but its great fun

Eaimirth Etaivella

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Seekers of the Apocalypse

23 May 2006 at 00:54 - 27

True that is.
Doubt they will make the same mistake twice though.