Before I start, english isnt my primary, so sorry for that.
I dont know if I'm wrong or not, but Im confused about the Elite Second Wind.
It said: You gain 1 Energy for each point of Energy lost due to Exhaustion. This spell causes Exhaustion.
Does it remove an Exhaust if you suffer a double Exhaustion? I mean, remove the half of your double Exhaustion?
Second Wind?
Francis Demeules
The Great Al
I'm not really sure, but this seems like a terrible skill if it doesnt.
Think about it - if you don't have a lot of exhaustion, you wouldnt use the spell.
If you DO have a lot of exhaustion, if it doesnt remove the current exhaustion, then we would hardly be able to gain any energy back, and we would be even more exhausted.
Think about it - if you don't have a lot of exhaustion, you wouldnt use the spell.
If you DO have a lot of exhaustion, if it doesnt remove the current exhaustion, then we would hardly be able to gain any energy back, and we would be even more exhausted.
Francis Demeules
I want to know that because I havent Capped yet and want to think about a Build around it if it removes the Exhaust.
LoyalSoldier
It gives you one point of energy for every current point of exhaustion. Say you max energy was lowered by 35 points. That means you will recieve 35 points of energy. It doesn't remove any exhaustion.
Frankly I think Ether Prod is a better use of an energy elite. Though this one isn't too bad for non-Elementalist players.
BTW you English is good. I wouldn't have guessed if you didn't say anything.
Frankly I think Ether Prod is a better use of an energy elite. Though this one isn't too bad for non-Elementalist players.
BTW you English is good. I wouldn't have guessed if you didn't say anything.
The Great Al
but what if you don't have the room for 35 points of energy?
LoyalSoldier
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Al
but what if you don't have the room for 35 points of energy?
Then you are at the max you can recieve.
Francis Demeules
I capped to test it.
It doesnt remove the exhaustion. So that means it used another way on what I think. Generally, It will be most used with non-exhaustion spells and use Second Wind for gaining energy in exchange of the Exhaust.
It doesnt remove the exhaustion. So that means it used another way on what I think. Generally, It will be most used with non-exhaustion spells and use Second Wind for gaining energy in exchange of the Exhaust.
Shred Dread
I've used this spell when I've had meteor and meteor shower being used. I wouldn't say it's great, but I also don't think it's quite as terrible as it sounds. For example, I just used meteor and then spammed immolate and fireball. I then cast second wind and got some exhaustion--but the energy I got made up for it. One thing that I think some of you are forgetting is that the exhaustion from casting second wind itslef helps you to gain energy.
Too bad this is an elite...then I could use it with glyph of energy
Too bad this is an elite...then I could use it with glyph of energy
Francis Crawford
I think it's just terrible when compared with other elementalist energy elites.
It's going to cause more exhaustion AND give you less energy than Ether Prodigy does, for instance.
It's going to cause more exhaustion AND give you less energy than Ether Prodigy does, for instance.
Phades
The exhaustion it causes is a good thing for the energy gain in the short term. It is a bad thing for staying power in the long term. Ideally, an elementalist would want to use the +15e -1 pip of regeneration wand and focus combination and run with roughly 50e of exhaustion constantly, thus gaining 58-59 energy each casting.
However, should the elementalist require to use a different exhaustion causing spell while attempting this balancing act, it is very easy to lose all efficiency what so ever from this skill. It is a long cast time, which makes it prime for interupt skills, but the recharge is forgiving. Even with all the drawbacks ether prodigy has, it is the more friendly to use as the duration of prodigy will ease the bite from the exhaustion it causes.
However, should the elementalist require to use a different exhaustion causing spell while attempting this balancing act, it is very easy to lose all efficiency what so ever from this skill. It is a long cast time, which makes it prime for interupt skills, but the recharge is forgiving. Even with all the drawbacks ether prodigy has, it is the more friendly to use as the duration of prodigy will ease the bite from the exhaustion it causes.
Ensign
Second Wind could outdo Ether Prodigy, at least in theory, with enough Energy Storage - however it is incredibly unwieldly, even moreso after the cast time nerf that cranked it up to two seconds. Before that nerf I thought it was potentially interesting in a build with other exhaustion skills - albeit inferior to Prodigy. The two second cast time just killed it though. Prodigy does have some drawbacks, but they're rather managable when you consider how convenient the energy from Ether Prodigy ends up being. It's pretty close to being better than Second Wind unconditionally.
Peace,
-CxE
Peace,
-CxE
Francis Crawford
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phades
Ideally, an elementalist would want to use the +15e -1 pip of regeneration wand and focus combination and run with roughly 50e of exhaustion constantly, thus gaining 58-59 energy each casting.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand that arithmetic. If you have 50 exhaustion, how does Second Wind give you 58-59 energy? It would seem to only give 45.
And you could only use it twice a minute without bring your exhaustion to self-defeating levels.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand that arithmetic. If you have 50 exhaustion, how does Second Wind give you 58-59 energy? It would seem to only give 45.
And you could only use it twice a minute without bring your exhaustion to self-defeating levels.
Xasew
http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=40706
Xapti here says after testing it, that it actually gives quite a lot of energy. If you master using it, it might be worth it because it's not linked to any attribute.
Xapti here says after testing it, that it actually gives quite a lot of energy. If you master using it, it might be worth it because it's not linked to any attribute.
Phades
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis Crawford
And you could only use it twice a minute without bring your exhaustion to self-defeating levels.
If you are asking about limits on quantity returned due to exhaustion capping, then thats different. The point of having both wand/foci combination, would be to push the potential energy maximum over 110. Then you use the skill as if you were using ether signet. In other words only using it when you have exactly 5 energy to spend.
The argument for using ether prodigy over second wind could be observed through heal party spam. With ether prodigy you are getting 3.33e per second. Including aftercast times its roughly a 5e defecit per casting of heal party throughout the duration of the ether prodgy enchantment. By contrast, second wind could provide enough energy for 4 casts of heal party, but would need to break to recast second wind every 11s, creating a diminishing return each cycle as only 13 of the 30 seconds needed for the exhaustion to wear off have expired before renewing the energy pool. For comparison purposes, if the remaining 17s of dead time were included, the elementalist with second wind would be able to squeeze out 1 more heal party.
If there was a way to fix exhaustion, the difference between the two skills would be if you needed more energy now, or more energy over time and if you could risk a 2s cast time. Unfortunatly, even if there was a way to fix exhaustion you would be trading 2 skill positions for 1 eliete opposed to 1 skill position and healing the damage with heal party and serving another purpose other than self management.
Quote:
Francis Crawford
OK. I think you're telling me that the energy return kicks in AFTER the exhaustion is caused. But even if I understand that correctly, I still have problems with the number in the example.
You hypothesized 50 exhaustion before casting. Thus, after casting exhaustion is in the high 50s. For that to be the gross return, you'd need energy up to 116 or so. The only way to do that is by blowing two pips of regen, so the true adjusted return is probably closer to 55, or 50 after you figure casting cost.
OK. I guess I see how that can be a little more than Ether Prodigy.
And if I'm wrong about where the exhaustion is counted, you just should have said one has to start at 60ish exhaustion, not 50.
Hmm. I'm seeing your point. Thanks.
You hypothesized 50 exhaustion before casting. Thus, after casting exhaustion is in the high 50s. For that to be the gross return, you'd need energy up to 116 or so. The only way to do that is by blowing two pips of regen, so the true adjusted return is probably closer to 55, or 50 after you figure casting cost.
OK. I guess I see how that can be a little more than Ether Prodigy.
And if I'm wrong about where the exhaustion is counted, you just should have said one has to start at 60ish exhaustion, not 50.
Hmm. I'm seeing your point. Thanks.
Phades
You are effectivly sacrificing normal energy regen for artificial regen through second wind using a method like i described. The sad truth is, it becomes pointless that you gave up those 2 pips of regen, due to the exhaustion capping out the amount of energy you can recover through the use of the skill. In essence, you could get away with having only 1 pip of regeneration while using second wind heavily, because you are completly limited by the time it takes for the exhaustion to wear off for optimal use of the skill.
At any point in time where you wanted "normal" energy regeneration, you could just use second wind to cap out your energy pool and foci swap back to the normal set, to allow time for the exhaustion to wear off. Of course you would only have about 15-20e of a working energy pool following the swap depending on your energy storage skill level. Essemtially, it just follows a similar logic to what warriors faced when using gale before it was changed, if they had a off hand focus item in their equipment sets.
At any point in time where you wanted "normal" energy regeneration, you could just use second wind to cap out your energy pool and foci swap back to the normal set, to allow time for the exhaustion to wear off. Of course you would only have about 15-20e of a working energy pool following the swap depending on your energy storage skill level. Essemtially, it just follows a similar logic to what warriors faced when using gale before it was changed, if they had a off hand focus item in their equipment sets.
Death by Apple
Well ive been testing out a water flagger for gvg while the ladder is locked and I havent had any energy problems yet. Closest I came to an energy problem was at the very end where I had only 20 energy left but that was from over casting and there guild lord was well below half health.
If you want to see it in action watch a (sai) game there flagger has got the hang of it. I must say this is one of the best e-managment skills for ele's.
If you want to see it in action watch a (sai) game there flagger has got the hang of it. I must say this is one of the best e-managment skills for ele's.
Francis Demeules
Even if SW isnt on what I thought at the begining, it has a good use.
Phades
Quote:
Originally Posted by Death by Apple
If you want to see it in action watch a (sai) game there flagger has got the hang of it. I must say this is one of the best e-managment skills for ele's.
Considering its one of the only really usable energy managment skills, that is not saying much unfortunatly. You get prodigy, second wind, glyph of energy, then energy boon in roughly that order. The rest are too conditional and in two instances require a gimmic devoting over half the build to make it work at a acceptable level.
Ensign
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phades
That can net you a little bit of energy with focus swapping - swap away your -pip stuff as soon as your Second Wind finishes to avoid losing the pip all the time - but in doing so you have to run a naturally higher exhaustion that keeps you from getting much use out of your baseline pips, and you 'lock yourself in a hole' from having to bottom out those foci to break even, so to speak. It's a nice effect for digging yourself out of a pip hole, but I would not base my strategy upon sitting on -pip foci.
Quote: Originally Posted by Francis Crawford OK. I guess I see how that can be a little more than Ether Prodigy. The energy you get out of it is comparable to what you get out of Prodigy. The advantage it would have is that it's much more front loaded, as you can rock up a bunch of exhaustion quickly to get more energy than what you get at sustainable levels. Prodigy on the other hand is much more reliable, as it smooths out your energy returns. It also doesn't *require* you to rack up a ton of exhaustion before it becomes effective.
The speed casting scenario has been largely neutered by the casting time on this thing, though. To maximize its use you need to be casting virtually non-stop, to turn the ramped up energy returns into front-loaded effect. This increase in production is completely neutralized by the cast time of Second Wind. I.E., the advantage is that it can give you all this energy, but you don't have the time to spend all that energy, which requires you to cast Second Wind less often, which makes each cast of Second Wind less effective, smoothing out your energy and making you wonder why you're running it over Prodigy.
Then mix in the vulnerability of a two second cast emanagement spell on a midline caster.
Quote:
Well ive been testing out a water flagger for gvg while the ladder is locked and I havent had any energy problems yet.
Two caveats - one, that you don't even need an energy elite on a flag runner, because he spends so much time running flags. You only need an energy elite if you want him to perform other jobs. The other, that Second Wind tends to underperform on a flagger due to the time required to make it any good. It would appear to work better because you can frontload it, but it doesn't frontload immediately, you need to spend a good amount of time racking up exhaustion for its power to really kick in. You rarely have the time to do that when running flags because, well, you need to run flags. Also when you return to the stand with a flag you would have worked off much of that exhuastion, requiring you to build it back up again before Second Wind starts to become good.
With Prodigy, if your energy gets tight when running flags you can fire one off and get your energy back up. With Second Wind, you need to cast a *lot* of them, or build up exhaustion some other way, in order to get good returns. Prodigy scales nicely to your energy needs, but Second Wind *does not*. Prodigy is good for putting you at 6-9 pips as neccessary, either working off exhuastion or building it up, depending on how much you cast it. Second Wind operates in reverse, you have to start it at 10 pips and rock yourself down until it's giving you 7.
It would make more sense in some sort of dual-runner setup where you alternate Second Wind guys at the stand for more raw energy output. I don't know what that sort of build would look like, though, or if it would be any good.
With Prodigy, if your energy gets tight when running flags you can fire one off and get your energy back up. With Second Wind, you need to cast a *lot* of them, or build up exhaustion some other way, in order to get good returns. Prodigy scales nicely to your energy needs, but Second Wind *does not*. Prodigy is good for putting you at 6-9 pips as neccessary, either working off exhuastion or building it up, depending on how much you cast it. Second Wind operates in reverse, you have to start it at 10 pips and rock yourself down until it's giving you 7.
It would make more sense in some sort of dual-runner setup where you alternate Second Wind guys at the stand for more raw energy output. I don't know what that sort of build would look like, though, or if it would be any good.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Phades
You get prodigy, second wind, glyph of energy, then energy boon in roughly that order.
I'd
Phades
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign
The +15/-1 sets are not favorable to use extensively with Second Wind. If you just sit on that focus and work the exhaustion, you'll net 15 energy every minute due to Second Wind and the increased energy capacity, but lose 20 energy per minute from the pip you gave up. Not exactly a good trade.
That can net you a little bit of energy with focus swapping - swap away your -pip stuff as soon as your Second Wind finishes to avoid losing the pip all the time - but in doing so you have to run a naturally higher exhaustion that keeps you from getting much use out of your baseline pips, and you 'lock yourself in a hole' from having to bottom out those foci to break even, so to speak. It's a nice effect for digging yourself out of a pip hole, but I would not base my strategy upon sitting on -pip foci. The whole point is energy up front. I know where you are comming from given your explanation. I am not trying to make it sound like second wind is better than prodigy. There is too much to juggle with the skill, even without having to keep the exhaustion level perfectly tuned with the amount of casting you expet to do in a short time frame. I was just trying to give an example of how it can be used to maximise the energy up front effect for heavy short term casting. Its the exhastion mechanic that really forces the skill to be used like that. Sporadic casting of the skill makes it worse than even energy boon over time really, due to the low exhaustion energy gains versus time spent casting the spell.
Ensign
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phades
Sporadic casting of the skill makes it worse than even energy boon over time really, due to the low exhaustion energy gains versus time spent casting the spell.
I don't think that's true. Assuming you have some sources of exhuastion around it should be trivial to get around twice as much out of a cast of Second Wind as a cast of Energy Boon. I.E., at 15 ES you're looking at an elementalist with 85 energy minimum - getting ~25 energy out of each cast of Second Wind at that point should be rather trivial. Energy Boon on the other hand is only going to net you 15 at that level, no matter what.
Boon is basically a horrendous pile of crap that no right-thinking person would ever use - Second Wind just has some non-obvious restrictions that keep it a bit below the established norms. Peace, -CxE
Phades
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign
I don't think that's true. Assuming you have some sources of exhuastion around it should be trivial to get around twice as much out of a cast of Second Wind as a cast of Energy Boon. I.E., at 15 ES you're looking at an elementalist with 85 energy minimum - getting ~25 energy out of each cast of Second Wind at that point should be rather trivial. Energy Boon on the other hand is only going to net you 15 at that level, no matter what.
To maintain that level of return you would be using second wind once every 28s approximatly. In essence, using it half as often as energy boon, regardless of the circumstance. Otherwise you travel the road of exhaustion capping the return and overal function due to the workable energy pool available. This is the fundamental problem with second wind. You can over use it for benefit in the short term, but you were refering towards long term gains initially.
I do agree that energy boon is a bad offering of blood imitation though. |