Upgrading for a new Graphics Card

Hey, decided to upgrade from my current Graphics Card which I'll shamefully name as ATI Sapphire Radeon 9250 128MB AGP 8x *shudder*.

To a new AGP, (can't afford to get a new PCI-E mobo, getting 1 at Xmas, it'd mean a new CPU, RAM (optional I guess), GFX Card + the mobo anywho).

To either:-


Club 3D nVidia GeForce 7800GS 256MB GDDR3 TV-OUT/DVI (AGP) - Retail
£185.65

ATI Radeon X850PRO 256MB GDDR3 AGP VGA DVI VIVO
£160.92

Sapphire Radeon X1600 Pro 512MB DDR2, 8x AGP, DVI, TV Out, Retail
£93.94


I'd just like to know what card would be best? Currently I think the 7800GS is the best.

I'll be playing games such as (and wanting highest quality, most of the times with AA/AF, not including FEAR):

Quake 4
Battlefield 2
F.E.A.R
Guild Wars
Counter-Strike: Source
Half-Life 2: Lost Coast
Half-Life 2: Deathmatch
Day of Defeat: Source

I've seen some Reviews & Benchmarks and seen that the 7800GS can play F.E.A.R at full quality, no AA/AF, at a steady 40FPS.

Every other game listed above, I've seen it play them all with very nice FPS.

So at the moment, and I've heard a few people say, the 7800 GS is the best AGP Graphics Card at the moment. I'm tempted to get that card.

I'm also upgrading from my 40GB Western Digital HDD to a Maxtor DiamondMax +10 7200RPM IDE/133 200GB 8MB Cache - OEM..

yes, the 7800gs range are currently the fastest AGP card available at the moment, there are rumours about a 7900gs(but i'm not convinced).

If you want to have the fastest go for the 7800gs.

What CPU do you have now? The reason I ask is because if your CPU isn't powerful enough to drive the video cards you're looking at, you won't get much of a performance boost.

Also, if you are running a s754 AMD system then you can switch to PCI-Express with as little as a motherboard switch. Not sure about Intel, though I doubt it.

It makes much more sense IMO to not spend so much on a high-end AGP video card unless you plan to stick with the computer for 2-3 more years. With Conroe coming out very soon that seems unlikely.
I'm pretty sure you can grab an X850XT for less than $200 now (check anandtech's video card price guide for other suggestions) which is a fairly fast card that doesn't break the bank.

Yes, wht type/speed of CPU are you running?

Also, as much as an nVidia fan I am and hate ATI I have the following advice

If you have an Intel CPU buy an ATI card
if you have an AMD cpu buy and nVidea card.

Surprisingly enough it does make a difference performance wise. Some people might flame me for saying that, but I have run tests and so have a few techs around here. It seems they are built better suited for the appropriate processors

This is in no way a flame, or a personal attack. Though I am curious to see these tests,

I'm running a Socket-A type Processor; AMD Athlon 2400+ ( 2.0GHz ).

The thing is, I AM getting a whole brand new PCI-E based computer this christmas, which is half a year away, and at the moment, I am so SICK of my ATI Radeon 9250 128MB AGP 8x, and I can't afford a new motherboard, well, I can, but then it means getting a new Processor, then a PCI-E Graphics Card, that - I can't afford.

I can't wait 6 months to be able to play Battlefield 2, Quake 4, F.E.A.R, Counter-Strike: Source at full, or near-full settings.

FEAR is understandable if it won't play full, as it is a really intense game. But I badly want to be able to play CS:S full detail, at least BF2 and Q4 at full.

And my Hard-Drive limit of 40GB from Western Digital is barmy, I have barely any room left, hence the new upgrade I'm going to get of an IDE 200GB from Maxtor.

Any advice then if I want to be able to play BF2, Counter-Strike: Source, Quake 4, FEAR etc at full details? Of course excluding FEAR as it's a more intense game.

Oh by the way, I'm running 2 x 512MB Kingston PC2700 RAM (1024MB Total), and I only have 2 slots for RAM, sooo, yeah. 1024MB is what I have, I am not getting 2x 1024MB sticks! :P

Sooo, again, any suggestions if I don't need such a higher-end card if I wanna play CS:S, Q4, BF2, FEAR (probably not FEAR max obviously).

I Would reccomend the x850, or the x1600

the only major differences between them is the x1600 will have support for the latest hardware transform and lighting options, and the latest pixel shaders etc (better look) -- on Performance Scale, my x1600Pro 256Mb AGP scores the SAME as my Friends x850 PCI-E (3D Mark 06) He's running an AMD 64 3000+... im running an older AMD XP 3200+

One thing I will say, and warn you about the x1600 AGP is there's a small chip on the topside (opposite side to the GPU) that gets EXTREMELEY HOT...

I have emailed sapphire about this, and done some research on the internet, It seems to be that since the x1000 range were originally intended to be PCI-E boards, there has to be an interface converterr to make them work on AGP - Thats what this chip is... Just thought i'd warn you on that.

Performance/price taken into account though, since its the cheaper option, and good enough performance (atleast till xmas) I'd go for the x1600..

CS:Source will run on Full @ around 60fps for me (1280x1026, 4x AA, 4x AF)
BF2 runs fine on normal settings,
Q4 runs fine on slightly higher than normal settings,
F.E.A.R. runs fine on normal settings,
Oblivian Elder Scrolls IV runs at around 45fps on slightly higher than normal..

im sure you will have no problem with this card, atleast till xmas



---- and as for Kyosuke,
im afraid you have it wrong m8, ATI works better with AMD, it always has, I have done some tests myself,
Spec'd up the equivelent Spec machines of AMD/Intel (same make/ammount ram, hdd, motherboard etc)
Windows XP Professional, and XP 64bit - with 3D Mark 06, and on AMD, ATI always scored better, on Intel nVidia mostly scored better..

You could look at the 6800gs as a cheaper alternative if you going to upgrade to PCIE at Chrismas anyway.

The 6800gs is slightly slower than the 7800gs but not by a huge margin and as your processor is not the fastest around, you might well not get the full benefit of the faster card anyway.

Have a hunt round the net for some graphics cards reviews. I read several that said the performance increase of the 7800gs over the 6800gs (the AGP versions anyway) was not worth the extra money and so bought the 6800gs and have certainly not been disappointed.

If you want the current fastest APG card then go for the 7800gs (there are some strong runmours that there will be an AGP 7900gs though), but if you want an interim card until Christmas, then check out the reviews of the 6800gs.

Thankyou very much Ghozer, you just saved me a lot of money!

I did have the X1600 PRO AGP bookmark'd, but wasn't quite sure as I didn't trust Tom's Benchmarks on it.

I am happy now to know that it can play CS:S on full with AA and AF, BF2, Q4, FEAR on above normal settings.

Saved a lot of money indeed! Around £70 saved, hehe.

Now, I have 1 more question; which X1600 to get?

ATI Radeon X1600PRO 512MB DDR2 AGP VGA DVI TV
£98.58 including VAT & Shipping

Sapphire Radeon X1600 PRO 256M DDR2 AGP VGA / TVO / DVI-I
£80.48

HIS X1600 Pro IceQ 256Mb 128bit DDR2 AGP Dual Link DVI & TV PAL
£82.95

HIS X1600 Pro IceQ 512Mb 128bit DDR2 AGP Dual Link DVI & TV PAL
£103.95


Currently leading towards the ATI Radeon X1600 PRO 512MB DDR2 card, what do you recommend Ghozer? Plus more opinions from others are appreciated too.


EDIT
I'm also wondering, seeming you said the X1600 AGP runs quite hot, and I've heard it before as well, so I believe you. What fan should I use on it, in place of the stock one? I can't seem to find a model from Arctic-Cooling.com that fits to it as AC is a highly recommended company (have 2 of there 12cm fans on my case, there great). Although haven't checked if there's any Zalman GPU fans for the X1600? (I'll go check now)

EDIT 2
Well, just found a Zalman GPU cooler for the X1600, the Zalman VF900-Cu LED.

i think the AGP converter chip is the hottie not the GPU which that cooler is for

Alright, cheers Loviator.

So I think I got everything nicely, it's all compatible, and fits nicely into my budget, what do you all think? ::

ATI Radeon X1600PRO 512MB DDR2 AGP VGA DVI TV
£91.59

DiamondMax 200GB 7200RPM 8MB Cache IDE HDD
£46.94

Trust 7.1 Home Theatre System 8110B UK
£41.42

Creative Audigy SE 7.1 PCI Sound Card
£27.86


Delivery
£4.65

VAT (freakin' UK VAT )
£31.76

Total
£213.27


I will then be running the above with the an AMD Athlon 2400+ ( 2.0GHz ) and Kingston 1GB PC2700 RAM, in a very nicely air-flowed fan with 2x exhausts and 2x intake in my Aspire Gaming case which I already have.

and i thought my freakin 8.25 % sales tax was bad.

i like the western digital 250 gig raid edition with the 5 year warranty.

got a pair from newegg on a one day sale at 106 each with 2.99 fed-x delivery

^^ Is it IDE? Plus NewEgg ship to USA only don't they?

[ EDIT ]
Alright alright, I'm not sure if this is a better card than the X1600 PRO or not, with it costing only £10 more, I just wanted to give it a check, both cards have cons and pros, what do you all think?

The X1600 uses DDR2 memory, while the X800GTO uses GDDR3 memory. Although the X1600 has ultra-threaded SM 3.0 engine. The X800GTO has 450MHz x 2 effective (900MHz) memory speed, which is higher than the X1600 PRO, which also could be overclocked on either cards. X1600 PRO has a tad higher default stock core speed. The cons/pros go on.

Just want opinions from the rest?

I can say I recently went from the BFG 6600gt OC edition to the BFG 7800gs OC edition and wow. For AGP this is a great card. I run Oblivion, FEAR, Guild Wars Factions all on the highest settings with very high FPS.

The 7800GS is well worth it if you don't want to upgrade to PCI-E yet.

nVidia 6600GT is the best bang for your buck at the moment. Its like $110?

It will run css at 60fps max settings.

Think about it Josh, Your loosing 100mhz memory speed, for a slightly higher Core speed, and a support for the latest Pixel shaders etc, with the right cooler) you can even clock the x1600 ram to 612x2 (Effectivly 1300mhz)

even un-clocked,
Ram: 800mhz vs 900mhz
Core: 475mhz vs 500mhz
Shaders: 1.2 vs 2.0
DirectX: 9.0 vs 9.1

If you ask me, the x1600 is looking better, the only thing that limits this card, is the speed of the AGP bus...

and besides, like I said earlier, my x1600agp performs the SAME as my friends x850 (pci-e) -- so getting an agp x800 will give you even less performance I think

I have a similar thread to this on the Guru3D.com forums, and there opinions are half 'n' half with the X800GTO and the X1600 PRO.

If the X1600 PRO is cool enough, I will make up the 100Mhz memory speed difference and OC it a bit.

Although what I've been wondering is, is the HiS IceQ Turbo technology stock fan on the X1600 PRO better than the Zalman VF700-CU fan? If it isn't as good, I will buy the X1600 PRO from Sapphire which has a horrible stock fan but it's cheaper then the HiS and I'll remove the Sapphire stock fan and put on the Zalman VF700-CU.

Tyil, I was going to get the 7800GS AGP, and I loved the benchmarks and reviews and was looking forward, but my 40GB Western Digital hard-drive is driving me crazy, I haven't even got FEAR, BF2 or Q4 installed as my current HD left is 10GB, and I've had to uninstall almost everything, at 1 point I had 12mb of memory left, hehe. So I'm getting a HDD as well.

But what I also fear, is if I did manage to get a 7800GS and Hard-Drive, I would not have a good Power Supply, as I got my PSU when I wasn't so tech-savvy and I got a 500w eBuyer EXTRA VALUE *smacks head - stupid me*! Have no idea if it has a 12v rail or such or anything.

[ EDIT ]
Just checked the sticker on my PSU, and it says 17A on the 12v Rail, is that enough for a 7800GS AGP?

[ EDIT ]
Ok, so I've researched a quick-bit. On the BFG Technologies website, for the 7800GS, they recommend 20a or more on the 12v rail, now although my PSU is 500w and has 17a on the 12v rail, I looked around nVidia.com forums, and someone has a PSU with 16a on the 12v rail and run it fine...I'm not so sure...

Would my PSU, 500w, 17a on the 12v rail, be ok for the 7800GS? Even if it is recommended 20a or more on the 12v rail? Think I'll get away with it?

Although that is a BFG, and I've found a good 7800GS AGP cheap from Club 3D, maybe there different? I doubt it buuuut...we'll see...

[ EDIT ]
Now I've found someone running an XFX GeForce 7800GS AGP on a standard Dell 305w PSU, and it runs very stable. ;\

the Sapphire fan is a joke, its a little heatsink, and a tiny fan, its very quiet, but it is a joke yes, get sapphire and Zalman tbh..

http://www.sapphiretech.com/en/produ.../133image3.jpg

**NOTE** I know the image is the PCI-E Version, but its the same hs/fan on the AGP Version...

Yeah I know there a joke.

What do you think on the 7800 topic though?

personally, I dont like nVidia GFX cards, never have, never will, Sure theyer fast, some times faster, But stability wise, i have had less problems with ATI overall..

i'd rather sacrifice a little speed for better stability...

I do Audio/Video and photo editing, and the colour representation (how close to real it is) has always been better on ATI cards imho.

See this is where we get to matters of opinion. They are both great cards. I have on the other hand had a bunch of troubles with ATI cards and went to Nvidia. For gaming I have found them best. Then again I haven't used them for editing so may be a matter of what you use them for.

Been thinking, if I got the X1600 PRO.

I could also upgrade my Sound Card to get a 7.1 Supportable and also buy a 7.1 Sound Speaker system, which would be very nice indeed! :P

It's either;

Club3D GeForce 7800GS 256MB AGP 8x
Maxtor DiamondMax 200GB IDE 7200RPM w/8MB Cache

; or ;

ATI HiS Radeon X1600 PRO 512MB DDR2 AGP 8x
Maxtor DiamondMax 200GB IDE 7200RPM w/8MB Cache
Creative Labs Audigy SE 7.1 PCI Sound Card
Trust 7.1 Home Theatre System 8110B (Speakers)

What's got me thinking is, I'm in fear 17a on the 12v rail isn't enough for a 7800GS as on BFG and nVidia's website they recommend a minimum of 20a on the 12v rail, and then I don't have any money to get a new Power Supply.

I DEFINATELY need to get a new HDD, but if my PSU can't handle the 7800, I'm stuck! :P

Although...I'm sure I could get about £40 from a friend or my parents or something for a 450w OCZ PSU with 28a on the 12v rail...hmm...

[ EDIT ]
Well I'm sorted, my friend said he'd give me £40 for the new PSU if my current 1 wouldn't run it! :P