The line between acceptable & unacceptable behavior

The only time I make an attempt at a mission without somewhat excessive pre-game banter is when I'm not really bothered if we succeed or not. Perhaps I'm just weird, but for some reason I find "newbish" behavior endearing. You'd be surprised how open to advice people are if you present it in a respectful manner.

1. Under what circumstances does it become acceptable to abuse another player? Never

2. When is the line crossed from being angry to abusive? When you put your rage/action to the player, rather than there actions

3. Does animosity and lack of consequence of such behavior provided through the internet perpetuate abuse or is it the lack of monitoring children by parents?
Don't know.

so you have to be bully in real life to be a nice person ingame?

ROFL Of course not! I'm just saying from my own personal experience

That is a great idea! I never even thought of that before. I can't count how many times that before a mission someone was designated leader and pace setter, but others wound up drawing all over the screen creating unorganization, chaos and mass hysteria.

Ok, then I dont understand your point. You saying that you "turned out good" because you were a bully, and those kids are so rude because you've bullied them and now you pitty them.
So your message to all the kids out there the way I read it: Let's all be bullies and turture those who can not stand for themselves, so we can grow up nice people.
I'm sorry I do not find your post funny nor smart. I was bullied when I was a kid and I didn't like it. I was actually pretty big kid, but i was inviolent by nature, I just couldn't hit another person in the face. Because of that I was beaten up alot. And because of that I grew up exactly opposite. And if some dirty scum, cheap showoff and pathetic loser with long penis would dare to tell me in person something like you did on the first page, he would get his [email protected] neck broken so hard and fast he would even know what hit him.

Hmm, I am trying to think of a good response without flaming. I am 17, My younger brother is 13, my younger sister is 11. My father owns a plant that manufactures gourmet food. My mother raised us all until i was about 11 and my sister was 5 and my brother was 7. At that point she got a job, not because she needed it because she wanted it, and you know what i dont blame her. I would go crazy sitting in a house all day. This being said I would have to disagree with you. From 11 on I was fairly independent and I have not been abusive to players in game, if something said about my religion throttles me i will argue however i will not flame. I feel that it is not the parents raising you it is the fact that your family has a strong set of values, and that your parents make sure you understand them, as long as that happens then we are fine, it is the parents that dont care that are the problem


If you dont like capitalism so much move to communist china, and bugger off the greatest country in the world.


Also, abuse is never acceptable

Dude, your problem is with that other fellow who keeps bullying you. Don't take it out on me though, I had nothing to do with whatever happened to you.

Which proves my point again, guys who are frustrated in real life will go on the internet to take out their rage on someone they don't even know.

I don't think you get it. The problem is not that people raging online. The problem is that people are frustrated in real life.
While apparently by your standards it is ok to hurt, piss off and humiliate in real life, but unacceptable online... No, it is not! You are dead wrong, and laughin will get you nowhere because it is not funny.

It's really simple, actually. If you are focusing on the behavior and advising and/or coaching a player in-game in a unsolicited manner, then you have to be polite.

Example: Someone stands in a Chaos Storm and continues to fight/cast. If you tell the player that they should move out of the storm so they won't take damage, then you are just giving them helpful advice for the benefit of the team.

If you tell the player he is a stupid noob for standing in the storm, then it is abusive. That is a personal attack.

Unfortunately, some players take unsolicited coaching as an excuse to rage back at others.

About as bad as I allow myself to get, is to tell a player to leave the team politely, as they are not fitting in, have alienated themselves from the rest of the team, etc. If they are a real problem, the team just waits for them to die ingame and refuse to rez them. That is a big hint for them to go.

OK Check this out

1 - i never would had hope there would have been a post on me ( lol )

2- in wich situation the " kid " went ballistic on yur wife or you

3 - are you one of those non stanced warior taht agro 50 enemys at once and make party die? Or those ELE agroer...Or MM with 1 Horror and useless vamp that play along....or those Assassins Tankers ?

4 - you dont want to be one of those around while playing with me

5 - read again point 4

6 - read again point 2


Now...why did those kids went on your case again ? becuse you made a master bonus so easy ?

If all this dose not represent an actual experience by you,,then i enjoy the opinion.....but again...im the worst mother around when it come at loosing my precious GW time...

what was point 2 again?

1. Never

2. When a player is personally attacked. Politely point out how they can improve their gameplay if you feel the need. Anything beyond that is uncalled for.

3. I think the anonymity the game and the internet allows can make people act like jerks. I don't know why children are being singled out--adults can be just as abusive and stupid when nobody knows who they are. Bottom line--it's cowardly behavior.

Right, so it's women's fault that people act like jerks. Sorry, but when someone acts like a jerk, it's his/her fault, nobody else's. The last thing we need is this ridiculous "It's mommy's fault I'm an asshole" mentality. And where is daddy in all of this--isn't it his responsibility to raise the children, too?

But it's moot, anyway. Back in the "good old days", it wasn't possible to take on another identity and participate in an online social environment where you could act like a jerk without anyone knowing who you really are. And we'll disagree about it being better in the "good old days"--lots of crap went on, but it was swept under the rug.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.... Ira... Demesis... Personal argument stops here, I won't have it in my thread. If you have a problem please take it privet.

Also for those commenting on the comment about "mothers actually raising their kids" I believe that you are taking that out of context... the point was that back in the day parents were more involved, not if your mother works that you will turn out bad. The point was also made that dual parent households can have the same problem in that post.

According to statistics, If you live in a single parent household your parents are less involved in you life and it does have a great effect on children and society... that is the point I believe was trying to be made. I think as intelligent people we know that there are always exceptions to the majority.

If ya'll wish to debate this point please start another thread...

*This has been an announcement of the emergency stay on topic broadcast service... please continue posting at normal speed*

~Andi

If the original post had said "when mothers AND FATHERS" actually raised their kids, and didn't take a swipe at feminists, maybe I'd believe you. But nice try, anyway.

Andi DeMorte
there is a certain point to all this. Humans are not naturally intelligent, mature, compassionate, etc etc. Religion tells us that child is born in sin. I do not bear any kind of faith in my heart, but I do believe that is right. Child is born animal. You can teach it talk and walk straight, but w/o social values it will still be an animal.
Thus one can not expect specific person to be not a jerk after that assuming that specific person was heavily abused as a child.

On top of that I laugh feminists calling themselves mothers... eeesh

You know, sometimes people are just having a bad day and explode at someone without meaning to. Happened to me just yesturday morning, at least I really hope that the guy didn't mean to be such a jerk. Co-worker comes in says something that I thought was a joke, I laugh, suddenly he is screaming over and over DON'T LAUGH AT ME!!! He then says he could kill someone. I figure ok, this guy needs to be alone, so I tell him I'm leaving and left. Chalked it up to him being called in to work when he was supposed to have the day off. Of course that didn't give him the right to yell in my face.

No one should really feel like they need to be a jerk in game. Having a bad day and need to veg out to GW for a bit, ok play with henchies and yell at them. Feel like being a jerk just to be a jerk, ok, group chat turned off. I don't have to let anyone effect my game play with their jerkyness. I still do missions with PUGs, I have met some very nice people that way. Some jerks too, but somehow they are less memorable since they aren't on my list. Last jerk was the Nahpui Quarter mission, don't remember the jerk, but the topic was the inferiority of women. I put in my 2 cents that he needed to just stop when he didn't, group chat was turned off. No reason for me to freak out cause he is a jerk.

Those people that soak up healing then die and ask why I didn't heal them at all really get me foaming though.


EDIT:
Hmmmm...I am not entirely sure what you meant by that. Please elaborate so that we don't have a flame war like what happened in the other thread. I do agree with the rest of the post for the most part, but your last comment is in question.

In my guild the officers always joke about each other on Teamspeak and on guild chat it could have a different connotation, so I don't know what is "abusive" in chat is meant to be abusive.

i.e. If I get called a "noob" by someone i don't take it seriously.

Um, AFAIK, it's not biologically impossible. Perhaps you don't understand what a feminist is. I can't imagine why a woman standing up for her rights means she can't be a decent mother, but whatever.

Of course it's funny, these people are too sissy to stand up for themselves that they have to rely on the anonymity of the internet. They know that nobody can catch them online no matter how jerky they are. That's just being a plain coward. If they're frustrated, they might as well confront me face to face instead of hiding behind a monitor screen, or a cat, or their moms.

Jeez, you should calm down, it's only a theory I made that these jerks are who they are because of bullies. There could be other reasons though.

Well, I guess I just haven't found my happy place yet because as I stated before when a player has played foolishly for the umteenth time and the party has tried to be nice and direct him and advise him to better his teamplaying skills, I can only take so much. (Ok, that was a bad run-on sentence) I almost always do bite my tongue and either don't say anything or try to say something politely, but enough is enough with some people. It's tough love....kinda like when a mother or father spanks their child. They may not want to do it, but for those that believe in the occasional corporal punishment (provided it really deserves it) then you just need to do it.

Some people just don't learn until they've found humiliation. Now I'm not saying that yelling at someone in the game will always yield positive results, but for a lot of people it will at least get them thinking about why their being yelled at and maybe.....just maybe they will have the mental capacity to re-evaluate their style of gameplay and make the necessary changes to become a better team player.

Oh I see where misunderstanding is. You think mother = someone who gave birth. I think mother = someone who raised a child.

Um, being a feminist and raising a child aren't incompatible. You must have missed the last part of my post, even though you quoted it. By your standard, I assume there are no decent fathers out there, either.

I did not miss anything. You stated what you think. I stated the opposite.
And by my standard father is needed only to enforce. Makes it kinda hard to be a bad father.

It's all well and good to say abusive behavior is unacceptable. But we do it anyway(a good portion of us anyway). Particularly, when "the other guy started it." In some people there is a general understanding that it's bad to respond, but human tolerance only goes so far.

Myself for example, I'm generally calm and civil, even berating someone for something. But there are times when the vigilante in me kicks in and rages all over someone who was being abusive in the first place. I'm willing to play a little bit of the "bad guy" to protect those who really want to present the image that violence solves little or nothing; and therefore aren't in a position to defend themselves. The shadow that fights for the light.

Now, of course you can say "oh that's a load of crap, you're just looking for an excuse to be uninhibited." but I'm gonna tell you right now, that's not the case. If I wanted to be uninhibited I'd just be an a-hole 24/7 and not be sorry about it. I'd be one of the people we're discussing.

Why, the explaination of my personal character? I'm providing insight into one of the facets of the game community, the vigilante, for your benefit, and most likely in the near future, at my expense.

The vigilante players are those people who, articulate or not, throw them between two arguing persons on the side of one or the other, depending who is being more civil. This is not to say the vigilante agrees with the position of the person they are defending; but find the manner in which their opponent is behaving so reprehensible that it must be countered. Power in numbers and all that.

Short and to the point, these players can sometimes be abusive; and while aware that it is never "right" to do this, feel justified to do so at times, but only because they are willing to take the heat for their behavior.

In fact that's the one unique factor. Accepting responsibility for one's behavior.

And please, for future reference. Do not try to act with a "Holier than thou" attitude. Most of us if not all of us, have a little bit of vigilante in our inner self. I feel it's because the general community is to soft of these people that they get to run amok like they do. Not enough players put them in their place, or at least not enough players are articulate enough to do so.

And could we stop with the steryotyping? Not every abusive person is a "fat hormonal teenager." I have yet to see a study that links abusive behavior with being overweight, or having skin trouble. The teenager bit I will give a little, but not much. Some of these "fat hormonal teenagers" are men and women in their 30s who have developed any number of "control", "self gratification" or "I deserved but never got..." attitudes about life and translate them into the game, conciously and subconsiously.

And since someone will probably accuse me of being a "Fat hormonal teenager" trying to draw attention away by attacking an inheirantly stupid steryotype. I am 20, I have a life, I'm not fat, and I don't have "anger issues." I've been instilled with the notion that there is nothing wrong with standing up for/with people who act with decency and morals.

There ya go, me, and a number of other vigilantes in a concise explaination. This is not for debate, this is how we are. Educational purposes only.

No, you stated what you thought I meant and then argued against it. Unfortunately, you were wrong about what I meant. As well, you haven't offered anything to support your opinion that feminists can't be good mothers. Ironic--in a thread that deals with how to treat people, you put down an entire group without justification.

All I can say is that's kind of sad. The good fathers I know are so much more than enforcers. If that's all your dad is/was to you, you have my sympathy.

Anyway, this has gone way off topic and I've said my piece, so I'll bow out now.

You are really blowing his comments WAY out of proportion here, as well as taking them WAY out of context. Sounds like someone has a chip on their shoulder.

Women are caregivers, men are discipline givers, this is nature, and there are rare exceptions as apparently your mother was a very determined person and congratulations to you and yours...however...a generalized statement which is of course true, should not be attacked for its lack of truth, exceptions to the rules are ALWAYS a given. (See that, that was a pun there).

Summary: Nobody said nuthin bout yo mamma.

I somehow doubt that, you already stated yourself you wont hit anyone. This is a perfect example of what they were talking about, raging against people because you are bullied in RL.

Bullies are perfect bad examples of how not to treat people. Because you are anonymous on the web or in game does not mean you get to take it out on anyone who 'bullies' you there, treat it just like ya would in rl. /ignore them.

You are quite right, a lot of the time in-game jerks get away with too much because nobody puts them in their place. Problem is, ANet doesn't really do a whole lot in the way of punishment for abusive players, and the ignore features for chat are underpowered. It goes a long way in making people feel like there are 1000 jerks per district and we're wasting our time reporting them, especially since the best you can usually hope for them to get is a slap on the wrist. Do I wish we could go vigilante on every jerk? Absolutely! Unfortunately what can go wrong, will go wrong, and we'll probably get the mini-ban instead of the jerk. It's disgusting when a community is overrun by scumbags and nobody with the power to clean things up will do so, and taking initiative on your own gets you punished as well. Ugh.

Hogwash. Women are women. Men are men. That is nature.

I like shinja's description better men are the spankers and women are the dishwashers.. viva la france!

Quit juggiling with words. Just because you said something about me personally it doesnt become true.
Internet anonimity has two sides. Second one is that you have no ground or right to assume something about me simply bacuse you have no way of knowing it. I am not going to show you my sertificates or post pictures of my knuckles to disprove something you've just made up. However if you live in Toronto feel free to pm me and ask for location of martial arts school i train at. Observe any of the classes:15bucks. Get your face broken:free of charge.

Who bullies who? Ignore who? I've lost you half way thru.

Once again I will ask to keep the feminist and/or the roles of men/woman/mothers/fathers topic out of this thread. The topic here is abusive behavior, what it is and when it is and is not acceptable. Discussing parents in general is fine as long as it pertains to the topic at hand. If you wish to debate feminist topics take it privet or start a new thread.

Thank you, Ken Dei, for your honesty. It's hard to come out and admit that you do something that is generally unacceptable and make a viable argument for it without excuse or pardon but a willingness to accept the consequences of such behavior.

~Andi

To Felinette and Ira:
I don't think that we should turn a thread about acceptable behavior into an argument about something pretty much unrelated. A parent's role, whether it be mother or father, is unique to the family. I know families where the mother works, I know families where the father works, I know families where both of them work, where the father is the enforcer, where the mother is the enforcer, and what their role is does not make them better or worse people because of it.

Also, Arcady, I don't think race has to be an issue at all. It doesn't matter that your mother was "colored", she was your mother and thats the reason she did what she did. I was in a similar situation, and I truly appreciate what she has done for me over the years, as you do yours. Noone should be treated better or worse because of their race, it just isn't right.

I think I had enough of this back in 4th grade when the D.A.R.E. officers would come around.

OK. The OP has asked twice that this thread be brought back on topic. I tried to clean it up, but to tell the truth, it is so convoluted by now that it's not worth it. This forum is for GuildWars discussion and gaming issues. While the OP started this thread in good stead and made an effort to keep it that way, it appears the rest of you can't. There were some good points made, but too much of it is flamebait to leave it be.

Closed.