Constructive Elementalist Ideas

So there is the stupidly large "Fix The Eles!" thread already but it turned into a debate of whether or not Eles are broken with a more flaming than helpful comments and far too much arguing of whether or not the problem is actually a problem for my taste (which unfortunately seems to be the best way to boost a thread count over 60)...

I think we can all agree that, regardless of your view on elemental damage and the purpose of the Elementalist, there is definitely room for improvement in the class. A certain space where it seems like A.Net could add something cool without making the class overpowered. So I'll begin with a nice set of ideas posted by....

Not bad ideas.....
Fire - I like it. Monks can still counter it but it gives them a serious reason to remove the burning condition. The only problem I could see is that spells like Flare would suddenly become the best damage dealers in the game....It would take some testing and tweaking (like maybe an additional text to spells that spam that says "This spell does not set the target on fire") but it's something to think about. It may seem a little powerful at first glance but, hey, they are masters of fire

Air - Weakness is pretty severe when you consider air spells are highly spammable...the way you suggest, an unchecked ele could easily keep weakness on 2 warriors and possibly a ranger at the same time. Maybe 1 second for 9 levels of air so someone could get 2 seconds worth if they were really lucky? Even with 1 second of weakness, a level 16 air ele could keep weakness on 1 target pretty much indefinitely...

Earth - Poison? Doesn't make much sense....honestly, I think Earth is one of the lines that doesn't really need a buff. Armor ignoring attacks, Wards, KD, Armor buffs....it's a solid defensive line with a nice offense already. Maybe +5 armor for the caster for 1 second per 4-5 levels or something like that?

Water - Again, a little too powerful. Water speed reductions are pretty brutal (best thing about that skill line already) and don't need a buff, imo. Maybe a clause that makes the spells like icy ground? If your target is standing still when hit by a damaging water spell, he is slowed by 33% for 1 second for every 4 levels (maybe cancel it out if they are hit by fire damage)? That way it can only hit if they are standing still and will only slow them for 3-4 seconds. Chain casting would have little to no effect since the person could start moving again.

Energy Storage - That should be +1 pip for every 8 levels....5-6 pips of natural energy regen is huge. Being able to spec 16 Air + 13 Energy Storage and get a regen of +7 would be waaaaaaay too much. Another idea would be to have higher levels of Energy Storage reduce exhaustion...maybe reduce it by 1 point for every 3 levels of ES for a maximum of 5?

Let's continue on this line of thought instead of focussing on what an Elementalist should or shouldn't be. There is definitely room for improvement without overpowering the class (redundancy FTW! ). We just have to step back and realize that until we stop demanding they be the best fill in the blank, nothing will happen to them at all. Let's make them more useful (though I still honestly think they aren't bad as they are now) instead of trying to turn them into what A.Net obviously doesn't want them to be.

Try to keep comments and ideas constructive. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing but, if you do, please say why and try to come up with something else instead of the standard 1-line reply

I like the idea of another modifier for elemental damage added into each element, but adding a certain amount of any condition to every elemental spell of that line is way overpowered. The primary Earth condition is blind by the way, with dirt and ashes flying in your eyes, that and knockdown which is more than a condition.

It would be nice if a little something extra was added to the effect of elemental attributes, but secondary attributes revolve around increasing the power of whatever the skills in that line are ment to do, not adding secondary effects, the skill damage equations or amount of damage increased with each point in an attribute are the only things a secondary attribute should really effect.

But for energy storage, I realy do think a secondary effect should be added. simply having a large starting energy pool realy isn't helpful, it gives elementist only 2 legitimate advantages, and both are rather poor. The first is a significant starting energy pool, but with elementist skill costs, all that realy does is allow elementist to cast his overly priced skills as much as other classes, unless you have max points in energy storage plus a good energy management skill, your energy is gone in a flash. The second more important improvement energy storage allows is the ability to operate with exhaustion. With high energy you can take 1 or 2 hits of exhaustion without losing half your energy pool, leaving you energy to continue casting, wile any other class would take a serious hit in energy with 2, sometimes even one serving of exhaustion. But exhaustion is still stiffling, even with energy waving over 100, reusing exhaustion skills can put you on the bench for minutes.

I think that Energy Storage have a dual improvement, 3 energy per point, plus 1 additional point of energy regeneration per 8 points, allowing 1 energy regen at lvl 8, and 2 at the very maximum of 16. Even with maximum levels of energy and increased regeneration, elementist will still be short of the very significant effects other classes primary attribute for their skills, compared to a Monk casting Heal Party for twice as much healing, an elementist may be able to cast heal party twice as many times initially, but will have a max of only 50% more energy restoration to keep up with those heals in a continous battle.

Alternately, energy storage could increase energy by 3 per point, and reduce exhaustion by 1 point of energy for every 4 points in Energy storage. This would instead allow elementist to soully improve in exhaustion management even more so Exhaution truely doesn't hurt an elementist. This doesn't improve elementists power in any other classes skills since none of them require exhaustion as a skill cost. With 16points in Energy storage, you could reduce exhaustion costs by 4 points, with 100+ energy and an exhaustion penalty of only 6 energy, you could reasonably cast exhausting skills repeatedly without totaly shutting down yourself. This only further improves elementists ability to use skills which cause exhaustion, and allows him to cast his skills without worry. Otherwise, a non-elite glyph should be added which simply cancels exhaustion, with a recast of 10 or 15 seconds. This would allow elementist, or other classes to equipt exhaustion managment along with Glyph of Energy, or another elite, simply removing exhaustion repeatedly is alot useful then an using an elite to reduce exhaustion and cost, expecially for skills which don't cost any significan't energy anyways.

I don't mind the damage that elementists do, it is rather balanced even if it is weaker then the classes description portrays, but requiring 2 energy managment skills along with a self healing skill just to continue casting your attacks is rather limiting. Elementist skills are not way over the top in damage, they are significantly watered down in comparison, if Elementist had a little better energy storage and some faster recast times, they would actually be able to continue battle without standing around waiting for energy or recast times to return.

I agree that improving elementist attributes and skills would make elementist more powerful, and likely raise their importance in a party a rung. But I also believe that Elementist is down a rung in being able to use his own skills just reasonably, because of the massive energy demand on his own skills, outside of exhaustion managment, Expertise blows Energy Storage out of the water, even for Heal Party spamming. You have to use Energy Storage plus an elite skill to make good use of Heal Party spaming with current ES (that's short for Energy Storage). Unless Elementist ability to cast at least his own skills is improved, it will always suffer from a rather significant weakness.

The other point I would like to express is that Elementist isn't the only class which could and should be improved. There are several ways to improve and diversify other classes abilities. Expecially for certain other classes primary attributes. Necromancers Primary is only useful if enemies or allies are dieing, it allows you to gain the energy needed to use death skills immediately, but it is a seriously and possibly determental requirement. It would be good if they added a skill which granted Necromancers other benifits when enemies/allies drop as well, like a Soul Reaping skill which grants Health for every killed player/creature, or some health and temporary boost in health regeneration or armor. Something like a skill which causes all deaths in the area to grant some health and other stats as well as the energy when creatures die. Mesmers Primary is also very situational, it improves your casting speed so you are harder to interrupt and can interrupt others more easily, but that is only important if your being shutdown or skilled enough and designed to interrupt others. I realy think that several skills should be available in the Fast Casting attribute, that way improving fast casting is more rewarding. For instance, a stance, enchantment or skill which, for a set period of time, grants the Mesmer health for every enemy skill they interrupt and disable, this would be rather powerful when used with Blackout, or several interrupt skills. Getting a nice shot of health right before you wipe out an enemies and your own skills for a period of time can be a real life saver.

I am under the conviction that all the classes can be improved in one way or another, trying to weigh down certain and all classes just to keep balance causes certain classes to be much less enjoyable. And in the end, enjoyment is the bottom line, Great gameplay and mechanics, balance and flavor all revovle around the neccessity to entertain and delight customers. When balance is such a burden that it ursurps enjoyment, it betrays the true purpose it is ment to serve. Balance doesn't have to be something that holds everyone down, if a certain class needs a significant improvement, developers should consider raising the maximum potential overall, or over many classes, so certain classes can be made enjoyable. Under this pretense, and simply in the name of progress, all classes should be considered for overall improvement, in either skills, attribute effect, weapon selection, and many other opportunities.

Because Warrior, Monk, Necromancer, Ranger, Mesmer and Elementist will be the core classes which we will be provided with in any and every chapter, and are the base spectrum of available classes as primaries and secondaries, these should be improved and revitalized periodicly. These are the classes which we will have every time, other classes will join in, but these are the baseline, and they should not lag behind in improvision and improvement just because they are already developed in a current fashion.

I appreciate anyone who has taken the time to recognize my perspective, thanks for reading and hopefully respecting.

I 100% agree with the original poster. Well, the weakness duration is pretty long, but burning, once you get past the northern shiverpeaks, does very, very little damage to anyone. Immolate and both rodgorts both do 3 (or 4?) seconds of burning, which..is nothing. For earth...howbout instead of increasing poison duration (Which I don't think is an effect of any earth spell), for every x amount of levels, the elementalist has a x% chance of evading an attack?

I think the main problem with most elemental damage is that it does not penetrate armor. I think that all elementall attacks should be at 25% armor-ignoring, and that air attacks are at 50%.

3 seconds of burning are 42 damage , more then what spell do to high level mob


the unconditional condition on all spell imo are pretty unbalacing , to make it work a major rebalacing will be needed on all spell.

is just better rebalance the underpowered spell.

and about energy storage and extra pipe of regen ...

it will just flat the elementalist making it more easy to play.

Currently to be a good elementalist(and on ever other class) a major effort( in skillbar slot and energy wise comsuption) is dont use more energy then what you can gain back.

there are already too many people who begin the battle , spam skill , stop after 30-60 second pinging their energy.

Imo in pve after one group of mob no one should regulary ping their energy for regen.

energy has never been a big problem for me. A simple healing breeze at the same time that someone is burning, is more than enough to counter it. It needs to either do more degen, or last longer.

I don't think any "quick fix" ideas that rely on blanket buffs to whole attributes are going to work. What's needed is specific changes to individual skills. Yes, it's a bit more work, but having a variety of good skills to choose from is far preferable to just making the existing good spells even better while still providing no incentive to use the others.

And giving more energy to elementalist primaries is just going to let them cast Heal Party more often. They need good spells to spend their energy on, not just more energy for their crappy spells.

You guys are completely ignoring the 5 energy spam spells each element has... Flare, Stone Daggers, Ice Spear, Lightning Strike. Considering how easy they would be spammed I'd suggest...

Fire Magic - For every 8 levels every fire spell you cast does an extra 2 second of burning on target.

Air Magic - For every 4 levels every air spell you cast does an extra 1 second of blindess on target.

Earth Magic - For every 4 levels every earth spell you cast does an extra 1 second of weakness on target.

Water Magic - For every 4 levels every water spell you cast does an extra 1 second of 33% speed reduction on target.

Energy Storage - For every 8 levels, every spell you cast has a 25% chance to give back 30% of the energy required to cast it. (Basically like a constant attunement)

still don t understand the problem with the ele s ? i have been a earth ele for a long time and only problem i have is the skills i want to use for my combo s all have exhation but ehh i move on. as powerfull as a ele is i think they are fine just the way they are.

First I want to thank Beat_Go_Stick for starting this thread. That last one was dreadful.

Secondly, giving eles an innate condition for each attribute seems a little lazy and arbitrary to me. Mind you it would be funny to see an ele cast Fire Attunement on himself and burst into flames. If you are going to buff the spells in this way, I suggest doing it on a spell-by-spell basis.

Thirdly, perhaps instead of energy storage providing pips of energy, the ele just gets 1 more pip via their armor. I mean, why not? They are the ones who need it, so I think it would be reasonable to give him 5 pips total. It's just kinda lame to have all that energy and then after an intense battle you have to wait a minute or two to get back to full energy. I know, you don't have to get to full energy, but if that's the case then the whole energy storage thing is a bit of a waste.

I also think it's about time ANet made some spells cost 20 energy. Spells always cost 5, 10, 15, or 25 energy. I don't know why they skipped over this number, or for that matter why energy costs always have to be denominations of 5, but seriously, some spells should only cost 20 (not just in the ele line either).

Finally, in response to BahamutKaiser, you must be the first person I've ever heard who thinks necros need a buff. Soul Reaping is amazing! Gaining 10-13 energy every time anything dies, including spirits, minions, pets, enemies or allies, is already great. I can see where you're going with Fast Casting, but I still think you're underestimating that a little bit. It allows you to get off spells quickly and run. It's one of the things that make mesmers who they are: annoying.

My opinion is, to have an innate condition per attribute line would be nice BUT the Ele's should be revised per skill/spell etc.

I like the idea of:

Fire : x%...y% chance to do 0.5 additional burning damage per SPELL for every 4 points

OR

x% chance to do an additianal y% fire damage per SPELL for every 4 points

Air : x%...y% chance to do 0.5 additional blinding damage per SPELL for every 4 points

OR

an additional x%...y% chance armor penatration per SPELL for every 4 points

Earth : x%...y% chance to knockdown a foe per SPELL for every 4 points

Water : x%...y% chance to slowdown a foe by xx%...yy% per SPELL for every 4 points

I dont think this is overpowered and will actually make the Ele a threat for PvE and PvP, if slightly unreliable.

As on 31 May 2006 these spells where balanced:

* Glyph of Sacrifice: reduced the amount of time it recharges your next spell to 30 seconds.
* Ward against Harm: changed skill type to Ward Spell.

I feel there is a lot more that they can do as MOST spells needs a SLIGHT damage buff.

I'd say water hexes should also cause minor attack speed decrease, like (10-20%) and negate attack speed buffs.

I don't think the conditions things are a very good idea. Its too cheap to spread mass conditions in too short a time.

Also the 1 second burning and what not will mean Frailty must be rebalanced.
Frailty+flare+4fire att, can possibly become one of the most damaging combos in the game. You don't even need to time it with flare's 1s cast.

@people who say HB to counter burning... Who has EVER used HB to heal a flare victim? HB is a disgustingly expensive skill for monks. Yes, 10en is expensive.

Personally these ideas are a bit overpowered.
My biggest complaint is the ele's long cast times. Just things like fireball @ 2 seconds, and rodgort's @ 3 seconds. Makes them very easily interupted, also making the ele basicly pointless when versing a mesmer. If only Anet used things like 1.5 seconds, because a 1 second fireball is too fast. Maybe theye should use their 5/4 second cast time more often.

I like Undivine's idea of giving Eles the five arrows >>>>> energy regen through their armors.

I think buffing individual spells would be much better, such as add more conditions to other spells such as:

Meteor Shower and Meteor: Add the condition of deep wound if it hits a knockdown target.
Firestorm: Burning for 1 second per hit
Phoenix: same

If I can only make one suggestion without changing anything else, then here goes...

I think the extra regen ideas would give the elementalist an unfair advantage over any other class. My energy concerns come from the costs of the elemental spells themselves. Something like a 1% passive attunement on fire spells only for each point in fire. With the rounding factor considered, it would take 15 in fire to give you 1 energy return on 5 cost spells. There would need to be a new condition that attunements no longer stack, and this would make the "Elemental Attunement" skill an attractive elite for someone using more than one element, which I believe it was originally designed for.

I could also forsee attunement recharge reductions and boosting the length of the elite up to 60 seconds along with this change. This would put someone using elemental spells in a range of 46%-61% attunement energy management, and leave the energy storage elites for the casters who enjoy using their second profession. Run with this idea for awhile, and then consider whether more than 1% passive attunement can be balanced.

Bonuses across the board for any class using these skills would help with the balance issues. The only ones punished by this change would be the fast cast mesmers running dual attunements.

judging by the recent skill changes, it doesnt look like any of these ideas will ever be put into effect

If you knew the past of Fragility, it has been rebalanced already because of Mark of Rodgort at 1 or 2 fire magic with a fire wand and 16 illusion. This was a fatal build killing in less than 10 seconds with a good attack speed +10% fire wand (collectors i think).

I like the armor idea, it seems to fit, and the other casters dont need it! if a necro had 5 energy regen then it would be unbalanced, but since the ele, offensively, doesnt stack up anymore.

Fire ~ For every offensive fire spell cast at 13...16 magic, you have a 9...33% chance to do an additional 1...2 seconds of burning. (this would open up flare spams again though...)

Water ~ For every offensive water spell cast at 13...16 magic, you have a 11...20% chance to inflict 1...10% slower attack speed with spells.

Earth ~ For every offensive earth spell cast at 13...16 magic, you have a 11...20% chance of knocking the opponent over for 1 second. If the spell was already knocking down a foe, they recover 1 second later than normal.

Air ~ For every offensive air spell cast at 13...16 magic, you have a 11...20% chance of doing an additional 1...10% of armor pentration.

Those are nice good numbers (ie the 3% denomination system already in GW). Im not to sure about the earth, maybe 10% is better?

There are very good ideas floating around here

Though i don't like the "boost the ele attunement" thing, because one shatter enchantment ownes your complete idea

I think ele's DO need at least 1 extra regen, because i'm sick of wanding things in the waiting for energy time (somethimes i just /dance in the waiting time) In GVG/PVP you don't even have that 1 à 2 minutes you need to get back at full energy.

And as a solution to the flare spamming problem: Just say in the description: This spell doesn't trigger the fire special effect (it sounds lame, but hey, it's balanced )

fix your build and use your energy wise , and you dont need wait energy becouse you dont run out.

I prefer simpler solutions. I'm not crazy about an elaborate system of bonuses for each attribute line.

I sorta like the fifth pip of energy idea, but I fear it would encourage even more people making eles and using only the secondary profession.

Another possibility: have your rank in Energy Storage also buff armor penetration. Ele spells almost never do the amount of damage advertised, because so few enemies have armor of only 60. Or else have your rank in each element increase armor penetration for that line, the same way your rank in swordsmanship increases critical hits.

Keep in mind that a buff to cast times is a nerf to interrupts.

Frankly, just about anything can be gimped by a proper mesmer built to take care of them. Warriors are helpless as kittens to an appropriately equipped mesmer, just as the ele can be gimped by a mesmer built to take care of them. Of course, the mesmer sacrafices versatility to do said gimping.

But anyway, I think the ele could use a few more short casting spells. Just not too many, as I love making eles my play-thing.

It doesnt take much if you are setup to handle a monk. Once you start slowing down already slow skills, it nearly becomes redundant at a certain point. You dont even have to bother to interupt really.

Some skills should be slow, while others fast, but there should be a really potent effect behind the slow release of the skill. The majority of elementalist skills above 2s cast time do not have an effect that justifies the cost in time given their effect. You can talk about energy costs and recast times in the same light, but not all skills need to have all aspects of them trimmed. Doing so would remove most, if not all, distinction between them.

Glyph of concentration ftw.
Its only 5 energy and 2 sec recharge.

First off, the skill its self can be interupted. Secondly, it costs 5e and 1s cast time, which causes it to be rather useless on cast times less than 3s due to aftercast effects. Thirdly, it only affects the effects from dazed. When referencing slowdown via mesmer means, it is commonly refering to arcane conodrum and migraine. Glyph of concentration does nothing to mitigate these effects.

It feels like dejavu. Its been brought up why this skill is bad before here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...oncentr ation
and here
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...=concentration
and here
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...oncentrat ion

There are more im sure, but some of them are getting old. The e/mo comments are examples of antiquated skill combinations/game mechanics. The mechanics for the glyph of concentration have not changed though.

I do like the fifth pip idea, but i think something like....it only affects only during exhaustion. or when energy is below 50% could perhaps balance it.

Forget it guys, it's not going to happen. There have been countless threads on the topic, and I am sure Anet is well aware of the problems with Eles (lack of DPS in PvP, and getting hit hard by the armor wall in PvE). If they had intended to fix these issues they would have done so already. I'm pretty sure that at least as far as PvP is concerned, they really like the Ele the way it is -- a support character with moderate spike ability.

I'm seriously beginning to believe that the real problem (if you can call it that) is Anet's vision for the game. The vision is this: Aside from spikes, Warriors running about (no leet teleporting, mind you) and banging on everyone's head should be the only consistent source of damage in the game. Everything else is support. Look at what they did to the Assassin. The moment they figured out this character could go and solo-kill NPCs effectively, they nerfed it. Why? Well, is a Sin = a Warrior running about and banging on peoples' heads? No. Then, by Anet's logic, a Sin has no business killing anything.

As an aside, the reason spike builds exist is simply because the entire game would become extremely slow and boring if individual character damage vis-a-vis health points was reduced to a level where spiking a character is mathematically infeasible.

Anet (or big daddy NCSoft) wants a Guild Wars GvG battle to look and play like a plain-old fantasy-medieval battle, with Knights in Shining Armor slaying the enemy with their swords and axes, and all the lesser subjects either supporting their own Knights directly or indirectly, or providing defense against the enemy Knights. They don't *want* other characters to be able to deal damage. Neither do they want Warriors to use underhanded shadowstepping techniques. Not because it would create imbalance issues, but because it would defy the vision. The majestic Knights must reign supreme.


Edit: I apologize for the rant-y tone. This was meant to be a constructive thread. Folks, whether you agree with me or not, please abstain from flaming, for the sake of this thread. Mods, please delete my post if you feel it is flame bait. That was not my intent.

I think shadow strike should do 1000 damage and steal 1000 more if your target has over 13% life.

Seriously which kid went around telling people that eles were underpowered.

omg you know that profession that nearly every good build runs it's shit lets buff it by adding obscene bonuses to every spell. I propose that tactics gives a warrior 5% chance to block for each point in it, not just attacks, spells too, not enough people are using tactics and I think it would really help the warrior profession that are blatantly underpowered.

I'm going to go shoot people coming out of the GED testing area.

just make elementalists' damage swing a little greater and it would be great.

Warriors for dpm.
Eles for high damage swing output.

I like the 5 pips of energy regen for an Elementalist, though I am sure people would cry about that, wondering why monks don't get it, etc...

I wouldn't mind seeing a pip or two of energy regen show up just like health regen works, after X seconds of non-fighting, you would get those extra pips of energy regen, so that you can recover faster.

As far as eles go I played 700 hrs of my game as an ele. I love the class enough to almost unlock every skill in the game as an ele primary. As far as the damage goes I dont think thats the problem. Yes us eles are squishy we die easy. But at the same time we kill easy too. Ever see what happens to a warrior when he gets hit by an obsidian flame then charges an Ele wearing silver armor with the curser on crystal wave? I guarantee he wont get up after that. You can undo every class in this game, wars included. I mean warriors can get shut down by ONE spell. Cast ineptitude on a war and hes screwed, end of story. With that arguement said and done there is an issue I do have a problem with, and thats the useless skills in cantha that could have been made much better for eles.

THINGS IM NOT HAPPY WITH:

Energy Boon: Sucks, exhaustion eats you alive unless you want to play 55 monk with your energy bar. E prod Ftw.

Second Wind: Its like the poop stains that you get when you wipe energy boon off your crack. Its boon but even worse. Play 55 monk with your energy bar and do a balancing act with it. Too much of a pain. E prod owns this.

Lighting Hammer: You must be joking... add KD to this and it would be worth something.

Smoldering Embers: Yeah trying to light someone with this is like like peeing on a charcoal grill and hoping for a flame to shoot up. At least lava arrows isn't bad.

Vapor Blade: Good damage, but who isnt enchanted? Works great after a shatter so I wont complain too much, I just think the cost is too high. Maybe cut it to 10.

THINGS I AM HAPPY WITH:

Silver Armor: 10 seconds of great defense that also damages. Short duration to make it fair, good skill.

Shockwave: Yeah one big wave, lots and lots of itty bitty numbers that stack. Great area killer us eles needed.

Dragon Stomp: Two EQ on your skill bar? It's already a great spell so why not have 2? EQ > Mshower

Shatterstone: Finally water mages can deal some ok damage, wonder what happens when u spike this? Maybe in conjuction with a lightning surger?

Burning Speed: Chaotic suicidal and fun, lots of neat pyrobomb uses.

Gust: Lots of KD fun and iron mist (: Its like bullying a little kid.

THE BOTTOM LINE:

I dont think ele's are lacking in dmg or suck compared to any other class. I think they just need some tiny tweaks in E management to use those high powered spells more effectively. We could also use more buffing skills.

I think at heart people are complaining because they havent realized that as an Ele your weak in AL so you HAVE to depend on a monk or some supporting class like a shutdown mesmer to keep you alive. Eles are not a class made to stand on their own. There are no stand alone classes. But I think eles can be played just as effectively as any other classes. I've shutdown mesmers with KD builds, buried warriors alive with armor piercing earth spikes, and screwed even the best ranger sniper with blinding flash and things like thunderclap and glimmering mark. Eles DO NOT SUCK so go get some skills watch how real eles play in top tournaments then you will understand whats broken and whats not. Most of all realize that this is a TEAM GAME and as a spell caster with 60 AL you need support you YOU WILL DIE so start getting better at teamwork. Learn when to call for help because ELES NEED IT JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

I must say, Silver Armor puts on the hurt in an inconcievable way. Mind you, I got struck with it in the worst possible scenario. Imagine you go into a mission and your entire group is instantly wiped in a matter of seconds because your group was stupid enough to insist on bringing a minion master. I happened to be the closest target when the minions wailed on that silver armored boss.

Actually, if anything, it can be said that the ele is the ultimate in anti-MMs. I don't know why people always want to go up against spells like Starburst or Shockwave with a minion master.

....Sorry, getting off track. Perhaps what ANet needs to do is think of 2 or 3 really good roles that an ele can fill, that other classes don't have to fill, and make them the best or among the best at those roles. Spike damage really should be one of them. After all, the whole concept of the class is that they do great damage that they cannot spam. The very idea behind Energy Storage is to unload a shitstorm and then have to recover. Perhaps they are currently able to do that shitstorm, but the recovery part is what a lot of people seem to complain about.

Keep in mind I don't play the ele much. I'm no authority on the matter.

In no way, shape, or form was I refering to adding the percentage to the attunement skills. I was talking about a free 1-16% return on energy costs just for putting points into an element. This was actually a response to the "one shatter enchant owns you".

This game has alot of new user friendly skills (the ones like Mending), where they are balanced for the purpose of just putting it on yourself for a matter of time and not worrying about it. If you want to talk about PvP friendly enchantments, then you're thinking about protection skills, where you put the enchantment on and it has it's effect over the next few seconds. These are about micromanaging your character, which is similar to what you should get with the glyphs.

Glyphs in PvP ftl.
You'll see alot of stuff about glyphs needing cast times reduced because it's taking two skills to get the job of one done. The elementalist spells are already plagued by "what's going to happen in 2 to 3 seconds?". In that time, will people still be bunched up so that my spell has it's greatest effect? Is anyone trained on me as I begin casting this spell? Using a glyph not only shows the enemy that you are going to be casting withing a limited amount of time, but it also increases the chance that you missed your best opportunity to maximize the effect of your spells. Nothing is more user friendly right now than a stance.

The natural attunement idea has added changes to the attunement skills. In effect its just a way of circumventing the 5,10,15,25 rule of skill costs. By doing the math out, it amounts to getting less than a pip of energy regen if you were to only use elementalist skills. Also notice by affecting the elements themselves instead of making changes that only one class can enjoy (armor/energy storage), you will reduce the controversy from making the elementalist the only class that can naturally regen better.

Minimum spell costs for the elements (will be the same for all elements)
These changes are occurring from energy return on using skills, so you would still need the original spell cost to use in the first place. I am rounding the energy returns to the nearest integer to figure these calculations.

no energy management skills
4 cost @ 10 air
8 cost @ 15 air
13 cost @ 10 air
21 cost @ 14 air

with non-elite attunements
3 cost @ 0 air
5 cost @ 15 air
8 cost @ 14 air
14 cost @ 12 air

with elite-attunement (changes proposed only allow one attunement)
2 cost @ 0 air
3 cost @ 15 air
5 cost @ 14 air
9 cost @ 12 air

finally, a comparison with the current practiced infinite energy scenario, which will no longer be allowed
dual attunement spells = 1 cost, 2 cost, 3 cost, 5 cost

There doesn't seem to be a way to give an elementalist a conditional pip reward for using elemental skills, whether through exhaustion or through energy storage. I also found that my idea would be giving lower returns on the 15 energy cost spells, which are the ones people have nightmares about (lighning orb/blinding flash) The other ideas still are doing nothign to facilitate the change in the role of the elementalist that many would like to see.

If you attribute sheer power to running and support, you are outclassed by a ranger/warrior and monk in each individual category. Power has more to do with damage and disruption, and those are the forte of mesmers, warriors, and rangers again. Elementalist are powerful at hindering characters(air/water), but so are necromancers, mesmers, and rangers. That leaves only spike, but you can't spike anyone good to death on your own.

I disagree with those people who think that its a matter of giving the toy (pip) to the baby to get him to stop crying. Every caster wants that pip. And your Warrior balance changes.... nice. Could it be that one class is actually balanced, despite having weaknesses to blind and hexes, and the only thing that should continue to get fixed is the distribution of skill use. A caster still can only get off one spell in the time a warrior can close the distance. Imagine if every decent adrenaline warrior build needed skills like Flourish, where you stop mid battle to refresh.

Dramitization of your testing process regarding elementalists: Well, we still see them sometimes don't we? And they aren't spiking anymore either. Our work here is done. Good job all around people!

Skill changes aren't getting people to change their skill bars. Skill buffs aren't changing skill use. I mean, I did notice that Dwaynas Kiss has that nice little bonus on enchanted/hexed characters when using it. But how can you have a Vigorous Spirit change without Aura of Restoration, even if it's still not good enough to use.

There's no need to get fancy.

A theoretical elementalist with three copies of Fireball on his bar would be a good character.

Take a skill, and sit it next to Fireball. If the skill is laughably worse, improve until a cost/benefit analysis of the two skills can be done with a straight face.

Repeat for all skills. Chain if neccessary. (I.E., Fireball compared to Dragon's Breath, compared to Firestorm, compared to Meteor Shower, compared to Searing Heat.)

Peace,
-CxE

I WAS just about to put my story when that happened, it was a sad sad sight. Except it was only me and an MM left in RA, and we were both spiked cuz i was a earth spike and he was getting shutdown by a mesmer or ranger i think... MM + Silver Armor = INSTAKILL. Its the best anti-mm skill ever.

ON TOPIC:
I was very pleased with shatterstone and gust, i want them both on the bar at a time

I agree anet wants to glorify the war, im sorry to say it, but i beleive it. Eles dpm is much worse, dps is ok i guess, im not doing the math but try out mark of rodgort, if they made that something other than a hex (not an enchant though) like a preparation or something, then i would defineatly go strait back to fire, very fast. 4 seconds of flaming death after my wand? isnt that what a ranger does? give the ele some melandru love

Yes, Ensign, you're still a genius. Elementalists' great skills can be summed up fairly succintly.

Ether Prodigy.

If you want to get wordy, you can add Fireball, Obsidian Flame, Kinetic Armor, Lightning Orb, and uh, Meteor Shower. Now, there's a few more good ones, but there are so many skills that are too expensive, too conditional, too slow, too unreliable, or just plain bad.

Not that that can't be fixed. Fireball, a solid little offensive spell (10e, 2s cast, 100 damage on target + adjacent, 7 second recharge), originally cost (back in the day) 15 energy, and took I believe 15 seconds recharge. Or was it 15? Anyway, it's been improved. Theoretically the same could be done for the rest of the mediocre pack.

I'm somewhat surprised you take Fireball as an example for a "good" Ele-Spell.
IMO its the mending in the Fire line...
It has not enough punch to be a spike, too long cooldown to be more than supportive damage and a much too long casting time to be considered an effective offensive tool.
I can see that if you hit enough enemies with it the damage will be quite large alltogether, but in any situation other than a bunched up group of softies I see Fireball as a "big flare" only.
The fire lines offers a good variety of damage to the clever player other than the theoretically large multi-target AoE damage.

back to topic though:
I'm also more and more convinced that this whole "Ele is underpowered" topic is turning into a self fulfilling prophecy.
The Ele HAS a problem with direct damage, but the more people discuss about it the bigger the problem seems to get.

The Ele faces following problems:
-high damage reduction through armour,
-mind boggling slow casting times,
-long recharge,
-high energy cost,
=>in comparison spells with too little of an effect.

The point about the Ele balance is that most of the spells have several, if not all of above drawbacks.
And it is either impossible or very wasteful for the Ele to balance them out.

I dont mind high energy cost if the the spell is worth the investment.
But even a spell with a very good effect in itself wont be an effective weapon if it has slow recharge AND long casting time AND high energy cost.
Sadly, most of the Ele spells just have most or all of these weaknesses, in the fear of Ele spike power.

For balance I would suggest giving Eles better abilities to balance those weaknesses out at their own will, perhaps in the form of (much more worthwhile) Glyphs.
That would also help making the Ele more unique.

The idea to give them a 5th pip of energy is madness IMO.
It will just encourage the use of an ele primary spamming secondary skills.

So to get my point again:
Not energy management in itself is the problem of the Ele, nor is casting time, recharge, armour reduction or low base damage.
The problem of the Ele is the simultaneous appearence of all of these points for most of his spells, with no worthwile way around them.

Man I'm going to be flamed with this one..

Okay, so I've long thought that elementalists need some major work. We're supposed to be the top damage dealers in the game...
I've read your ideas/comments above and they're really good.
However...
At least from my perspective, it appears that the elementalist as a class unto itself isn't that bad. I mean we have damage, AOEs, armor spells... My ele is actually my favorite char. At least in PVE.
What the real problem, imho, appears to be is the elementalist as compared to other classes, particularly the warrior.
The fact that warriors can do better damage than elementalists per second using no skills, as well as having the best armor in the game is where the problem resides.
My solution?
Nerf warrior damage abit. At least in some way, I'm sure ANET could balance it right. What do you guys think?
/duck

No, it's already difficult enough getting past ultra efficient monk healing as it is. The last thing I want to see is long, death-less games that continue until one side rage quits out of boredom.

Warriors do the "right" amount of damage IMO. It's elementalists who need to be brought up to that standard (in some sense, if not sustained dps, then spike).

QFT

The game already evolves around monks and ways to handle them.
Reducing damage dealt will make it just more boring.

I think Attunements should be stances. They are easily stripped and your energy management is gone for the next ~30 seconds, then you reapply it, then it's stripped again. Many enchantment removals recharge before Attunements do.