In the grand scheme of things... why do we need to ensure NPCs survive?

generik

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

This is something that I always find puzzling, missions with objectives such as "Mhenlo must survive", "Master Togo must survive".

Let's put this in perspective.

In this game world people die all the time, but there is a magically thing known as a resurrection signet! Sure, rez skills usual state in their description that they are meant for fallen party members only, but since there is nothing special behind the concept of a "party" (strictly speaking they are just 7 other buffons you find in town, who are "friendly" to you), it should go on to follow that you can resurrect ANYONE who is "friendly" to you.

Heck, biologically there is no difference between a person who is "friendly" to you and "unfriendly" to you, so I don't see why you can't even rez a fallen ENEMY even!

So here comes the question, in spirit that people can actually be revived from deaths in this game, how then would keeping an NPC alive be a legitimate quest objective?

You died? No biggie! Someone else walking by will resurrect you!

Avarre

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

To make the quests harder, obviously xD

Chicken Ftw

Chicken Ftw

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

Yeah... reminds me of a convo my team had... was on the way to some mission zone with Mhenlo, and this Kurzick NPC says "Mhenlo! We all thought you were dead!".. A guy in the team replied, "It's called a res sig, derr, silly Kurzick. No wonder the Luxons control Harvest Temple. You nubs don't res."

...K, so it was like 3 am, and funny then... <.<;

floppinghog

floppinghog

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

pit of brimstone

Squad Six Six Six [ssss]

A/Me

probably cause we are choosen, and only we have the powers to res others, hence Mhenlo sucks~ =D

honestly i always got REALLY pissed at the end of a mission because of mhenlo dying on his own or togo or even rurik going leeroy into some charr gang like a moron. but then where would the challege be? you can always run away and come back to res people, npcs are part of the story, the mission, and the challenge so i guess that's why. its for the mission - the challenge has to be there

(why some missions don't require you to save some npc's i dont know, i guess they fall short of the main REAL objective - they expect you to do what your supposed to so they dont die)

EagleEye33

EagleEye33

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

In a House...duh

Untouchable Heroes

R/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
To make the quests harder, obviously xD
Exactly, what this person said. It's to make things slightly harder. Also it is an "objective to protect", to make it seem like the story is "real" (if they died, the whole story would change) your not really suppose to die either, but they jump you so it happens. Heck you may not notice it but they help protect you and fight, so you can at least do the same :P

Avarre

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

Quote:
probably cause we are choosen, and only we have the powers to res others, hence Mhenlo sucks~ =D
Mhenlo is chosen also!

But then explain all the dredge and stone summit that can res... and Zaishens, and afflicted, and Shiro'ken, and Irukanji... I don't think they are all chosen too

EternalTempest

EternalTempest

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

United States

Dark Side Ofthe Moon [DSM]

E/

I've thought about this way back in C1 with the Ascalon guards...

Ahhh if this country only had the ability to use it's resources to raise monks, put them in the army... oh wait Im a monk that joined the army and can raise...

Do agree it's for the "quest" challenge but it's something I have to suspend my disbelief on.

VGJustice

VGJustice

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

Tyria, cappin' ur bosses

Boston Guild [BG]

R/W

I don't know about you guys, but I'm still wondering why they didn't just use a Phoenix Down on Aerith.

Same thing. It's for story. Mhenlo/Togo can't die, so now said quest/mission is harder.

Chicken Ftw

Chicken Ftw

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by VGJustice
I don't know about you guys, but I'm still wondering why they didn't just use a Phoenix Down on Aerith.
Because Cloud's a cheapskate. Proof? http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=176

Avarre

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by VGJustice
I don't know about you guys, but I'm still wondering why they didn't just use a Phoenix Down on Aerith.

Same thing. It's for story. Mhenlo/Togo can't die, so now said quest/mission is harder.
Because Sephiroth has:

Frozen Masamune of Defence

15-22 Slashing damage (give or take a few 9000) (req 15 Swordmanship)
+15% Damage
Slain foes cannot be ressurected
Armor +5
+20% Damage
Customized for Sephiroth

Think about it... did anyone actually killed by that thing come back?

Manic Smile

Manic Smile

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Hawaii

----- 15^50[Rare] ---- Alliance: ----- [SMS] -----

I like how my henches can die 30+ literally and be rezed but the allie dies once and it's OMG!! NOZZZZe

Stabber

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Plane of Oblivion

Sigilum Sanguis [keep]

Me/W

I love how one of the soon-to-be-henchies (Aurora? Daeman?) in Boreas Seabed says, "One of us will die here today and I am ready to die... of course I've died and been reborn many times." (paraphrase)

Shows the writers are self-aware enough that they can poke a little fun at their mothridden plot.

Infinity^

Infinity^

Academy Page

Join Date: Jan 2006

House Behelit

R/

*very-mild-spoiler-ish*

In Arbourstone, when you get trapped in the cathedral with Mhenlo on the other side (y'know, when your subjected to Danika's rubbish voice-acting).

"Tell you what Mhenlo, we'll all die and you can rebirth us out of here, then we'll stroll back to HzH. What, no? Ok, I've got rebirth, you die and you can come with us when I've rezzed you. Well why not? Where are you going? Come back! At least take this urn, i'll chuck it over these rocks. Hang about... I can climb over these... why did noone think of that..?"

Gonzo

Gonzo

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

Netherlands

Defenders of the Blackblade [DotB]

W/

So offtopic: thanks for the VG Cats link Slow day at work.

Raziel665

Raziel665

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Defenders of the Blackblade [DotB]

N/Mo

Rule #153 from the grand list of Roleplaying Cliches:

"Mommy, why didn't they just use a Phoenix Down on Aeris?"
Don't expect battle mechanics to carry over into the "real world."

http://project-apollo.net/text/rpg.html

Sanji

Sanji

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Mo/

The whole Aerith/Story Driven death thing more makes me think things like ressurection spells and items don't so much bring someone back to life, but bring them back from a critical condition.

Or at least have a window of opportunity in which they must be used or can be used when it comes to say, fated deaths. So they wouldn't work, say, when it is your time.

Because, y'know, nobody would die otherwise. At least nobody who could afford it.

Hanok Odbrook

Hanok Odbrook

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

Tyria

Real Millennium Group

Mo/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by generik
This is something that I always find puzzling, missions with objectives such as "Mhenlo must survive", "Master Togo must survive".

Let's put this in perspective.

In this game world people die all the time, but there is a magically thing known as a resurrection signet! Sure, rez skills usual state in their description that they are meant for fallen party members only, but since there is nothing special behind the concept of a "party" (strictly speaking they are just 7 other buffons you find in town, who are "friendly" to you), it should go on to follow that you can resurrect ANYONE who is "friendly" to you.

Heck, biologically there is no difference between a person who is "friendly" to you and "unfriendly" to you, so I don't see why you can't even rez a fallen ENEMY even!

So here comes the question, in spirit that people can actually be revived from deaths in this game, how then would keeping an NPC alive be a legitimate quest objective?

You died? No biggie! Someone else walking by will resurrect you!
I always found this amusing (and aggravating) - You can rez your fallen teammates - but not their pets nor your allies even if theyd appear in the party window. The problem I have with "Keep such and such alive" is that in many quests and missions, some of the NPCs do not appear in your party window, so you can't even keep track of their status except through in the main window. This problem really became apparent to me when I took my characters through the second two Kryta missions (D'Alessio and the other one after Gates). In order to not only to complete the bonus, but to unlock the bonus to begin with, you have to save some NPCs. I had to repeat these missions at least a dozen times each before I completed the bonuses as a result of this (no one in my party died even once). To me, that doesn't make a mission challenging, only an aggravating waste of time.

In the one mission, I actually had to consult the guide book in order to find out who gave out the bonus (at least it was good for something) after my first few runs turned up nothing. Maybe it's me, but I find something wrong with having to consult an outside source in order to complete a task in a game. In the end, I don't have a problem with the task, but the base mechanic needs to be reworked - some quests and missions have your needed NPC in the party window, others do not. This needs to be reworked so that all necessary NPCs appear in your party window. GW has always claimed to be about lessening the grind - when I have to repeat a mission a dozen times to complete it (party deaths notwithstanding), then that tells me there is an update in order.

Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
Truth * Knowledge * Peace

Fates

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Kanuckistan

Mirror of Reason [SNOW]

R/

Um, you guys are wrong. The reason is to stop people from running. It's that simple.

Young Hero

Young Hero

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

Mi

N/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fates Monk
Um, you guys are wrong. The reason is to stop people from running. It's that simple.
Yep, and you can't solo "farm" a mission if you have to protect retards.

Fates

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Kanuckistan

Mirror of Reason [SNOW]

R/

...but A-net has nothing against runners. You just cant run anywhere in Cantha.

Does-it-Matter

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabber
I love how one of the soon-to-be-henchies (Aurora? Daeman?) in Boreas Seabed says, "One of us will die here today and I am ready to die... of course I've died and been reborn many times." (paraphrase)

Shows the writers are self-aware enough that they can poke a little fun at their mothridden plot.
I think to that they were speaking of reincarnation perhaps.

My view on this, the "in game" layout is slightly different than the "storyline." The ressurecting and ressurection shrines are a game mechanic (in game) to make the game more accessable to everyone. Think about it, if they had it being "You died. Continue? Quit?" like you see in a lot of video games, how far would we actually get? I'm not even going to make an Assassin joke here.

As far as the storyline is concerened someone (ally) doesn't "die" unless they die in a cutscene. Which is why Togo jumps in front of the Emprerer rather than just starting to cast Flesh of my Flesh pre-emptively.

So if you die, and your ressurected then you were just unconcsious/whatever as far as the overall storyline is concerned. But when you die at the end of Viznu square... you did actually die.

That's my take at least.

capitalist

capitalist

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

Best part about this crap... Shiro kills Togo... we rez Togo after killing Shiro? Of course not, we bury his ass.

Cyan The Archer

Cyan The Archer

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

Denmark

R/

Mhenlo died against Shiro in the last mission.. no "QUEST FAILED DO IT AGAIN AND HE IS MAGICALLY RESURRECTED WHICH YOU CANT(Shiro laugh: Mwhahahahhaha)" he just stayed dead, and we finised mission ^^

Evil_Necro

Evil_Necro

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

川崎区、日本

currently guildless..

Rt/

Capitalist, sorry dont mean to be rude, but maybe you can edit your message and put "warning spoliers"..

I mean if shiro dies it is quite obvious since he is the bad guy that need to be killed in the story. But this one, not everyone knows.

This is just my input. sorry if you all think it is an obvious matter and doesn't count as a spoilers >_<

Oh and On topic my take is it is to ensure that no one could just let NPC die and farm on the mission area.

Last thing, plz excuse my english, I am not having English as my primary nor secondary language.

Raiin Maker

Raiin Maker

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

England

Blood On The Worlds Hands

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by capitalist
Best part about this crap... Shiro kills Togo... we rez Togo after killing Shiro? Of course not, we bury his ass.
lol exactly, same with rurik, which shows were idoits not to res him, he gets so mad he comes back to fight us.

konohamaru heaven

konohamaru heaven

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2005

Some where in Cantha beyond the Petrified Forest and the Jade Sea

The Amazon Basin

You guys really put too much thinking in to this matter. Most of the time the reason for this is to escort/protect an NPC if you could ressurect him what would stop you from leaving them behind and just rush ahead and fight. In Ruriks case he was a sacrafical lamb so to speak so that his people could be safe either that or they had Frozen Soil down .

Matsumi

Matsumi

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

/not serious
because they're freakin fugitives man, you gotta save them or everyone gets blown away. But what they don't tell us, is the fugitive is an insane suicidal prisoner dude, so you gotta save them, and then save them from themselves. It's like a hostage crisis situation.
/end

Eh em, ya, I think it's kind of silly at times, but it does make situations alot more challenging in the game.

EternalTempest

EternalTempest

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

United States

Dark Side Ofthe Moon [DSM]

E/

Thinking of the FF7 Aeris issue.. rember back to the Phantasy Star Series (sega) where they made it a point to have a strong female lead and make sure there dead usually in the middle of the series to make an emotional "point".

One of the worst was Phantasy Star II - You could use the item to restore the person that is "dead" after she died to use her during the fight.. then she falls over dead after the fight ... and this is where when everyone (party wipe out) they resurrected you via clone / DNA clone / brain dumps vats that you "saved your self at" ahead of time.

On the aberstone... I was thinking OMG were doomed... we can't climb over that 4' of rubble of large smooth square blocks myself.

Must also be "anti-magical blocks" I can't warp 2' as an assasin

Tristan Taylor

Tristan Taylor

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2005

Blood of Orr

E/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanji
The whole Aerith/Story Driven death thing more makes me think things like ressurection spells and items don't so much bring someone back to life, but bring them back from a critical condition.

Or at least have a window of opportunity in which they must be used or can be used when it comes to say, fated deaths. So they wouldn't work, say, when it is your time.

Because, y'know, nobody would die otherwise. At least nobody who could afford it.
This has been my way of thinking as well, when you die during battle, it's more of a KO(knock-out) than an actual death. Then with the idea of all party members being down you may wonder why we lose, cause, if we are all unconsious, who's going to bring us back to consiousness, nobody, so we will be killed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VGJustice
I don't know about you guys, but I'm still wondering why they didn't just use a Phoenix Down on Aerith.
What?!? Aeris dies?!?!? Thank you for ruining that game for me, I recently started playing it, and I was hoping for her and Cloud to live happily ever after.

EternalTempest

EternalTempest

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

United States

Dark Side Ofthe Moon [DSM]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan Taylor
This has been my way of thinking as well, when you die during battle, it's more of a KO(knock-out) than an actual death. Then with the idea of all party members being down you may wonder why we lose, cause, if we are all unconsious, who's going to bring us back to revive us, nobody, so we will be killed.

What?!? Aeris dies?!?!? Thank you for ruining that game for me, I recently started playing it, and I was hoping for her and Cloud to live happily ever after.
Keep playing then pick of the DVD of Final Fantasy VII of Advent Childern and pay attention to the ending of FF VII (game). Also check out Kindom Hearts I (Not KHII) in reguards to FFVII characters in the game and the ending credits

Phades

Phades

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan Taylor
What?!? Aeris dies?!?!? Thank you for ruining that game for me, I recently started playing it, and I was hoping for her and Cloud to live happily ever after.
I believe there is a statute of limitations for spoilers like this.

SasquatchTimeToDie

SasquatchTimeToDie

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2006

Cupertino, CA

We Are All Pretty {ugly}

Quote:
Originally Posted by Does-it-Matter
I'm not even going to make an Assassin joke here.
Nice Assassin joke