Power Return
Eaimirth Etaivella
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Where are you GvGing? o_O
Quote:
What if you only have 6 energy and need to interrupt? Powerblock FTW, right? Because it's obviously better than Power Return in every situation. You know; if you didn't plummet yourself into a negative net energy pool with every cast of this spell, I might agree with you. Also it just occured to me that with power return they will be able to recast BF the moment it recharges. Using any other interrupt they would not be able to and would have to wait a few seconds (4x3.33=13.33). Themis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella
You missed my main point that power return has no direct effect on the flash bot. Yes it is elite; but at least it gets the job done-this spell does not get the job accomplished at all. It has no effect at all on the flash bot, does not hurt, may help but as you said we can ignore the energy gain on this case. However; it has no effect.
Eairmirth, Power Return DOES its job : it interrupts.
What could you POSSIBLY expect from an interrupt skill that costs 5 and recharges within 7 seconds ? 200 damage ? 20 energy stolen ? Instant kill ? Bed and breakfast ? ![]() I give up : I don't get your point. Eaimirth Etaivella
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themis
Eairmirth, Power Return DOES its job : it interrupts.
What could you POSSIBLY expect from an interrupt skill that costs 5 and recharges within 7 seconds ? 200 damage ? 20 energy stolen ? Instant kill ? Bed and breakfast ? ![]() I give up : I don't get your point. Even with it interrupting every other BF; the two warriors remain blinded indefinitly. That is my point; it doesn't even put the ele in spell delay as he waits for mp (although not for long due to prodigy; this shortens the amount even more so he can cast it immediatly when it recharges) like any other interrupt would. I Gotcha i
like any other skill that isn't FOTM at the moment, the usefullness of this skill depends on the overall composition of your build. With only having to run this ONE innerupt on ur bar U could stop a diversion spammer to give ur monks a breather,or something like tab to an ele to innerupt wards to give ur offence the time to spike someone down. See this is a TACTICAL innerupt, I dont care about the amount of energy a ele with ether prod and wards has and my warriors dont either, they care about the ward that is PREVENTING them from doing any damage and causing the opponents monks to not use their energy. U DO NOT HAVE TO DRAIN MONKS THEMSELVES TO BURN THEIR ENERGY. If an ele is snaring ur soft targets and it's causing YOUR MONKS to losse energy, well u can innerupt all their snares. Its the cheapest innerupt available and you should always have it ready to cast for a tactical innerupt. You just cant be dumb and go innerupting shyt that does no good. Be smart use this skill to compliment an already solid mesmer bar such as degen or a diversion shame bar and use it to tactically give your team an advantage. One thing that is always nyce is that u should always have an innerupt available for their hard resing, call the hard res'r out have warriors attack him, POWER RETURN him before it's finished and 9times/10 they wont recast immeadiatly cuz they have warrior pressure when they load it up again u should be able to innerupt it again. How many times have u just shattered on a spike target and haven't had enough energy to cry of frustration a hard res......
and BTW [quote]"Even with it interrupting every other BF; the two warriors remain blinded indefinitly. That is my point; it doesn't even put the ele in spell delay as he waits for mp (although not for long due to prodigy; this shortens the amount even more so he can cast it immediatly when it recharges) like any other interrupt would."" ^^^If your an innerupt mesmer and your camping a blinding flash ele ur an idiot....there's a skill called diversion for them. If u run a NO HEX build and thats why u dont have diversion or u run a degen mesmer u should have someone on ur team to draw conditions. ur time should not be spent camping a blind bot to help ur warriors... Terra Xin
Isn't PR the only skill to give energy to the enemy?
It's been brought up before, but cant you just PR, E-surge, PR, E-surge, Bonus E-tap, PR, E-feast. At least this spell will guaruntee damage, energy and healing for yourself. Of course, I would use this in a e-wrack build. fatboyslimerr
I'm not really bothered about giving back energy to enemy. With reasonable FC, this spell gives 6 energy back to foe. So there is no spell in existance that costs less than 5 energy, so at the most you make a 5 energy spell cost +1 (because they lose 5 for casting but then gain 6 from PR) but its affect from interrupting should be worth giving your foe +1 energy and interrupting whatever they were doing. Currently I'm worried about dwaynas kiss that got buffed to infinity and beyond, so I would take power return if just to continually interrupt monks who think they are so awesome because they can heal over 250 health with a 5 energy cost spell, muhahaha they can't if they keep getting interrupted but thats probably not logical thinking.
I agree PR is a great interrupt if your not taking any others and can be used strategically but it should still be used cautiously. Eaimirth Etaivella
Hey I didn't come up the scenario; I just disproved its vadility, that is all.
Like you said I Gotcha; inadvertently draining the monks energy is a good key to victory; diversion has a 10 second recharge, so does power spike and causing this 100 damage which must be healed at some point will do this. Giving them energy to recast another spell which will harm your team will not. Interesting point reanimated by Terra Xin; but it seems contradictory no? Evilsod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella
Even with it interrupting every other BF; the two warriors remain blinded indefinitly. That is my point; it doesn't even put the ele in spell delay as he waits for mp (although not for long due to prodigy; this shortens the amount even more so he can cast it immediatly when it recharges) like any other interrupt would.
So how about you stop wasting your time and interrupt its Ether Prodigy! Who gives a toss how long you can interrupt its BF for, interrupt its only Energy Management you've given them 1. Exhaustion. 2. A lot less energy. And even if you can't be arsed to interrupt, shatter the damn thing, then you get 100 damage from that and however much they take when EP 'ends'. At 15 energy a cast, no-one can cast blinding flash for longer than 20 seconds without EP.
Out of interest, what elite were you running since you actually left Power Block at home for once? Eaimirth Etaivella
Agreement with interrupting prodigy; also we could shatter it first like you said and then interrupt the recast with power spike for a somewhat spike effect. If they have any energy at all this will add to the spike damage so we are looking at 100+100+X damage where X depends on their energy. The higher value X is the faster they die, if X is too low they cannot recast prodigy immediately unless you use power return...
Just proving a point that is all; silly to interrupt a fast recharging skill and give them the energy to recast it. -edit- Energy drain Terra Xin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella
Interesting point reanimated by Terra Xin; but it seems contradictory no?
Just 'one' of the reasons why I became a Mesmer :P.
Evilsod
You have more than Power Return on your skill bar surely... Besides if you brought Power Return only, you probably don't care what happens to the target aslong as they can't cast there spell.
I think your missing the point (for the 100th time this thread?) they still get 10 exhaustion from it. So what, you gave them 5 energy from Return. They have to wait 5 seconds before they can recast EP again, by which time they could've regened 5 energy anyway. Unless of course Power Spike has some hidden bonus i'm not aware of, they still have to wait 5 seconds until they recast it and they could still have regened enough energy to recast it. You slowed them down, if you want to stop them completely, go play Final Fantasy and mess around with Stop/Paralyze/Petrify... Theres nothing stopping you from interrupting 1 EP with Return and 1 with Spike now is there? I stand by what i said earlier, you live in a world where recharge times dont exist for skills you interrupt. It also seems that natural energy regen doesn't exist either now. Terra Xin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsod
You slowed them down, if you want to stop them completely, go play Final Fantasy and mess around with Stop/Paralyze/Petrify... |
Ohhh.... please dont reference final fantasy... man... now I want to play it... ahhhhhH!!!!! I can't stop thinking about it now...
<<Look at my avie... it's Reno...wooo!!
I know I partially mentioned this, but when you spike somone with PR, here's a sample dialogue:
Mesmer is wanding monk
Monk: omg... I have no energy
5seconds later, monk goes to cast mantra of recall
Mesmer: sorry bub, no recall for you
Mesmer uses Power Return
Monk: hah! stoopid noob! You gave me energy!!!
Mesmer casts mink wrack and e-surge. Monk is down.
Monk: wtf??? HaXXXX000rrr!!!
A good thing about PR is that when your target is already at zero and regenerates to a respectable amount of energy, you can almost predict the panic time taken for the target to cast a spell. Spike off the skill, and they will have a higher energy reserve for you to take away - this time, the energy won't become spent on one of their own spells. (bad english). PR provides a s an indicator to when you would use your e-denial skills... IMO that's as contradictory as it gets, but as long as the monk dies^^.
Eaimirth Etaivella
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra Xin
<<Look at my avie... it's Reno...wooo!!
I know I partially mentioned this, but when you spike somone with PR, here's a sample dialogue:
Mesmer is wanding monk
Monk: omg... I have no energy
5seconds later, monk goes to cast mantra of recall
Mesmer: sorry bub, no recall for you
Mesmer uses Power Return
Monk: hah! stoopid noob! You gave me energy!!!
Mesmer casts mink wrack and e-surge. Monk is down.
Monk: wtf??? HaXXXX000rrr!!!
A good thing about PR is that when your target is already at zero and regenerates to a respectable amount of energy, you can almost predict the panic time taken for the target to cast a spell. Spike off the skill, and they will have a higher energy reserve for you to take away - this time, the energy won't become spent on one of their own spells. (bad english). PR provides a s an indicator to when you would use your e-denial skills... IMO that's as contradictory as it gets, but as long as the monk dies^^. True but monk skills have usally quick cast times; we would not be able to cast both wrack, let alone surge, before they got their heal off.
Wish it would work that way though.
[/quote=Evilsod]You have more than Power Return on your skill bar surely... Besides if you brought Power Return only, you probably don't care what happens to the target aslong as they can't cast there spell.
I think your missing the point (for the 100th time this thread?) they still get 10 exhaustion from it. So what, you gave them 5 energy from Return. They have to wait 5 seconds before they can recast EP again, by which time they could've regened 5 energy anyway. Unless of course Power Spike has some hidden bonus i'm not aware of, they still have to wait 5 seconds until they recast it and they could still have regened enough energy to recast it.
You slowed them down, if you want to stop them completely, go play Final Fantasy and mess around with Stop/Paralyze/Petrify...
Theres nothing stopping you from interrupting 1 EP with Return and 1 with Spike now is there? I stand by what i said earlier, you live in a world where recharge times dont exist for skills you interrupt. It also seems that natural energy regen doesn't exist either now.[/quote]
And yet I have natural energy regen listed out above in one of my points.
As for the hidden bonus; yes powerspike apparantly does 100+damage; who thought of that?
My energy regen point was referencing BF, not ep; learn to read.
You missed my point; not vice versa.
Sacho
You present a flawed argument, EE. First, you pick out power return and pit it into the worst situations you'd use it - on 5e energy spells, on fast recharging spells, on minor pressure/damage/healing spells.
Then you take your pet power block, and pit it in its BEST situations - when it would interrupt a vital skill, of the main attribute of the target, when you are not using some other elite...etc.
When a build is thought through, it almost always has *some* strategy it's trying to execute. Examining skills stand-alone is not productive. Comparing power return to other interrupts in situations when it wouldn't be very practical is duhh. You're practically slamming on the skill because it's not power block. Hey fine, there are situations where you'd take power block over power return. There is a myriad of skills, even in the current metagame that you could effectively disrupt with power return. Spikes(ie, returning an orb), consistantly disrupting a mesmer's burns and diversions(which you could argue is very effective, since it saves tons of energy on your monks), constantly putting holes in a necro's hex spam, denying monks their energy management and slow-casting spells - not only can you do all this, you can do it with the best consistency, unlike the other drains.
Power return also doesn't require any invested skill points for its most important effect - interruption. The rest of the mesmer interrupts just don't recharge fast enough to be used for consistent interrupts, and are instead used to punish an interrupted target severely. Power return is not for that - it is simply as an extra disrupt to your opponents tactics. It's not really something you'd focus your attention on - it's not *that* disruptive, and it happens too often to really stop it. However, constantly having something tripping over the execution of your strategy is one of the things mesmers are really good at, and power return helps exactly that.
Then you take your pet power block, and pit it in its BEST situations - when it would interrupt a vital skill, of the main attribute of the target, when you are not using some other elite...etc.
When a build is thought through, it almost always has *some* strategy it's trying to execute. Examining skills stand-alone is not productive. Comparing power return to other interrupts in situations when it wouldn't be very practical is duhh. You're practically slamming on the skill because it's not power block. Hey fine, there are situations where you'd take power block over power return. There is a myriad of skills, even in the current metagame that you could effectively disrupt with power return. Spikes(ie, returning an orb), consistantly disrupting a mesmer's burns and diversions(which you could argue is very effective, since it saves tons of energy on your monks), constantly putting holes in a necro's hex spam, denying monks their energy management and slow-casting spells - not only can you do all this, you can do it with the best consistency, unlike the other drains.
Power return also doesn't require any invested skill points for its most important effect - interruption. The rest of the mesmer interrupts just don't recharge fast enough to be used for consistent interrupts, and are instead used to punish an interrupted target severely. Power return is not for that - it is simply as an extra disrupt to your opponents tactics. It's not really something you'd focus your attention on - it's not *that* disruptive, and it happens too often to really stop it. However, constantly having something tripping over the execution of your strategy is one of the things mesmers are really good at, and power return helps exactly that.
Sab
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacho
You present a flawed argument, EE. First, you pick out power return and pit it into the worst situations you'd use it - on 5e energy spells, on fast recharging spells, on minor pressure/damage/healing spells.
Then you take your pet power block, and pit it in its BEST situations - when it would interrupt a vital skill, of the main attribute of the target, when you are not using some other elite...etc.
When a build is thought through, it almost always has *some* strategy it's trying to execute. Examining skills stand-alone is not productive. Comparing power return to other interrupts in situations when it wouldn't be very practical is duhh. You're practically slamming on the skill because it's not power block. Hey fine, there are situations where you'd take power block over power return. There is a myriad of skills, even in the current metagame that you could effectively disrupt with power return. Spikes(ie, returning an orb), consistantly disrupting a mesmer's burns and diversions(which you could argue is very effective, since it saves tons of energy on your monks), constantly putting holes in a necro's hex spam, denying monks their energy management and slow-casting spells - not only can you do all this, you can do it with the best consistency, unlike the other drains.
Power return also doesn't require any invested skill points for its most important effect - interruption. The rest of the mesmer interrupts just don't recharge fast enough to be used for consistent interrupts, and are instead used to punish an interrupted target severely. Power return is not for that - it is simply as an extra disrupt to your opponents tactics. It's not really something you'd focus your attention on - it's not *that* disruptive, and it happens too often to really stop it. However, constantly having something tripping over the execution of your strategy is one of the things mesmers are really good at, and power return helps exactly that. We have a winner.
Then you take your pet power block, and pit it in its BEST situations - when it would interrupt a vital skill, of the main attribute of the target, when you are not using some other elite...etc.
When a build is thought through, it almost always has *some* strategy it's trying to execute. Examining skills stand-alone is not productive. Comparing power return to other interrupts in situations when it wouldn't be very practical is duhh. You're practically slamming on the skill because it's not power block. Hey fine, there are situations where you'd take power block over power return. There is a myriad of skills, even in the current metagame that you could effectively disrupt with power return. Spikes(ie, returning an orb), consistantly disrupting a mesmer's burns and diversions(which you could argue is very effective, since it saves tons of energy on your monks), constantly putting holes in a necro's hex spam, denying monks their energy management and slow-casting spells - not only can you do all this, you can do it with the best consistency, unlike the other drains.
Power return also doesn't require any invested skill points for its most important effect - interruption. The rest of the mesmer interrupts just don't recharge fast enough to be used for consistent interrupts, and are instead used to punish an interrupted target severely. Power return is not for that - it is simply as an extra disrupt to your opponents tactics. It's not really something you'd focus your attention on - it's not *that* disruptive, and it happens too often to really stop it. However, constantly having something tripping over the execution of your strategy is one of the things mesmers are really good at, and power return helps exactly that. We have a winner.
audioaxes
power return is pretty good on migrane build in ta/ha, maybe not in gvg where the target can retreat to backline
with it you can achieve near total shutdown on a target with this cheap, fast recharge interrupt
who cares if they get energy if you are interrupting them anyway?
with it you can achieve near total shutdown on a target with this cheap, fast recharge interrupt
who cares if they get energy if you are interrupting them anyway?
Pat_vaynard
I have used power return in a Me/N SS-Interrupt build. If I am not echoing the SS I will be echoing power return because with the other two interrupts I bring, any caster is virtually shut down. I feel like it's qualities are best realized when you are not trying to use it like an interrupt+. It's a skill that allows you to deny a spell that may be at a crucial point in the fight, or a very insignificant spell. Hell, even if you interrupt a large AOE the target is only getting a fraction of it's cost returned. It's the quickest recharging interrupt that a mesmer can utilize. I just wish there were more fast-casting skills.
Eaimirth Etaivella
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacho
You present a flawed argument, EE. First, you pick out power return and pit it into the worst situations you'd use it - on 5e energy spells, on fast recharging spells, on minor pressure/damage/healing spells.
Then you take your pet power block, and pit it in its BEST situations - when it would interrupt a vital skill, of the main attribute of the target, when you are not using some other elite...etc.
When a build is thought through, it almost always has *some* strategy it's trying to execute. Examining skills stand-alone is not productive. Comparing power return to other interrupts in situations when it wouldn't be very practical is duhh. You're practically slamming on the skill because it's not power block. Hey fine, there are situations where you'd take power block over power return. There is a myriad of skills, even in the current metagame that you could effectively disrupt with power return. Spikes(ie, returning an orb), consistantly disrupting a mesmer's burns and diversions(which you could argue is very effective, since it saves tons of energy on your monks), constantly putting holes in a necro's hex spam, denying monks their energy management and slow-casting spells - not only can you do all this, you can do it with the best consistency, unlike the other drains.
Power return also doesn't require any invested skill points for its most important effect - interruption. The rest of the mesmer interrupts just don't recharge fast enough to be used for consistent interrupts, and are instead used to punish an interrupted target severely. Power return is not for that - it is simply as an extra disrupt to your opponents tactics. It's not really something you'd focus your attention on - it's not *that* disruptive, and it happens too often to really stop it. However, constantly having something tripping over the execution of your strategy is one of the things mesmers are really good at, and power return helps exactly that. Possibly.
However let me point a few things out; this is the fastest recharging mesmer interrupt by three seconds. It does not put "holes in a necro's hex spam" as you claim as these spells recharge quickly, and since you "return" the energy needed to cast these hexes back to them. Example of such would be power return to life siphon; you lose 5 they lose 3 and cast the hex again in 2 seconds. However if you "spiked" the hex they would not have access to this energy even at 0 in rank power spike is the better option here as they will be casting less hexes over time, with more points in rank power spike becomes unbelievably better.
Disrupting mesmer skills has the same problem as many are quick recharging; so disrupting these will pose little threat. Take for instance diversion (a popular skill) even if you interrupt it every single time it is cast (looking over the fact powerspike could do the same) you still suffer a 2 point energy net loss. Because of this net loss; you will slowly become locked down yourself. Because of this, you are being less effective than the opposing mesmer due to the fact that he/she (as time approaches infinity) will be able to accomplish his/her job more effectivly while you cannot. Other mesmer hexes are difficult to interrupt due to fast casting, and also due to the same scenario presented above.
Another flaw in your arguement is that you claim that power return is useful on higher energy cost spells; while this is true we must look on who uses these higher energy cost. By higher cost I assume you mean at least 15; so that you are in a net gain for the energy; thus the recharge time will not matter. This brings us to lightning orb, blinding flash, heal other, heal party, and exhaustion spells- all of which are used by primarly elementalists. The problem being is that energy is of little worry to this class. As Evilsod suggested you could attempt to continously interrupt Ether Prodigy with Power Return and another interrupt, however constantly doing it with power spike would provide more benefit. Perhaps they could both be used in junction to shut the elementalist down. I do suspect however that due to the return of energy that they would be allowed to cast other spells such as lightning strike which would get through the interrupt barrage. Basically expensive spells are used mainly by elementalists; and they are not concerned with energy.
In PvE this could be useful(due to energy gain being pointless to the target), but I would still perfer powerspike due to it dealing damage to enamies that are not supposed to be alive that long in the first place(the reason the energy gain is pointless).
Consistantly interrupting with power return, while disruptive, is not in the mesmer's favor (due to net loss); thus there is a sence of irony of it being the fastest recharging spell interrupt in the game, but the one the mesmer will want to use the least.
Then you take your pet power block, and pit it in its BEST situations - when it would interrupt a vital skill, of the main attribute of the target, when you are not using some other elite...etc.
When a build is thought through, it almost always has *some* strategy it's trying to execute. Examining skills stand-alone is not productive. Comparing power return to other interrupts in situations when it wouldn't be very practical is duhh. You're practically slamming on the skill because it's not power block. Hey fine, there are situations where you'd take power block over power return. There is a myriad of skills, even in the current metagame that you could effectively disrupt with power return. Spikes(ie, returning an orb), consistantly disrupting a mesmer's burns and diversions(which you could argue is very effective, since it saves tons of energy on your monks), constantly putting holes in a necro's hex spam, denying monks their energy management and slow-casting spells - not only can you do all this, you can do it with the best consistency, unlike the other drains.
Power return also doesn't require any invested skill points for its most important effect - interruption. The rest of the mesmer interrupts just don't recharge fast enough to be used for consistent interrupts, and are instead used to punish an interrupted target severely. Power return is not for that - it is simply as an extra disrupt to your opponents tactics. It's not really something you'd focus your attention on - it's not *that* disruptive, and it happens too often to really stop it. However, constantly having something tripping over the execution of your strategy is one of the things mesmers are really good at, and power return helps exactly that. Possibly.
However let me point a few things out; this is the fastest recharging mesmer interrupt by three seconds. It does not put "holes in a necro's hex spam" as you claim as these spells recharge quickly, and since you "return" the energy needed to cast these hexes back to them. Example of such would be power return to life siphon; you lose 5 they lose 3 and cast the hex again in 2 seconds. However if you "spiked" the hex they would not have access to this energy even at 0 in rank power spike is the better option here as they will be casting less hexes over time, with more points in rank power spike becomes unbelievably better.
Disrupting mesmer skills has the same problem as many are quick recharging; so disrupting these will pose little threat. Take for instance diversion (a popular skill) even if you interrupt it every single time it is cast (looking over the fact powerspike could do the same) you still suffer a 2 point energy net loss. Because of this net loss; you will slowly become locked down yourself. Because of this, you are being less effective than the opposing mesmer due to the fact that he/she (as time approaches infinity) will be able to accomplish his/her job more effectivly while you cannot. Other mesmer hexes are difficult to interrupt due to fast casting, and also due to the same scenario presented above.
Another flaw in your arguement is that you claim that power return is useful on higher energy cost spells; while this is true we must look on who uses these higher energy cost. By higher cost I assume you mean at least 15; so that you are in a net gain for the energy; thus the recharge time will not matter. This brings us to lightning orb, blinding flash, heal other, heal party, and exhaustion spells- all of which are used by primarly elementalists. The problem being is that energy is of little worry to this class. As Evilsod suggested you could attempt to continously interrupt Ether Prodigy with Power Return and another interrupt, however constantly doing it with power spike would provide more benefit. Perhaps they could both be used in junction to shut the elementalist down. I do suspect however that due to the return of energy that they would be allowed to cast other spells such as lightning strike which would get through the interrupt barrage. Basically expensive spells are used mainly by elementalists; and they are not concerned with energy.
In PvE this could be useful(due to energy gain being pointless to the target), but I would still perfer powerspike due to it dealing damage to enamies that are not supposed to be alive that long in the first place(the reason the energy gain is pointless).
Consistantly interrupting with power return, while disruptive, is not in the mesmer's favor (due to net loss); thus there is a sence of irony of it being the fastest recharging spell interrupt in the game, but the one the mesmer will want to use the least.
Evilsod
I really can't be arsed anymore.... it seems Avarre has taken his leave from this thread. There is just no point debating a skills use with someone quite so stubborn.
Power Spike is a better option? Honestly, do you even pay attention to the energy costs of these skills? Power Spike is 10 energy for interruption and damage. With 0 in Domination, its absolutely useless. With 0 in Fast Casting (which SHOULD only happen if your not a primary mesmer) you give your target back twice the energy, but you still have an interrupt for 5 energy.
Are you going to pick out another situation, like Sacho said, to put Return in its worse light and the godly interrupt of the gods (Power Block) against a monks main attribute yet again?
Interesting how you seem to think you can constantly interrupt Ether Prodigy with Power Spike. Please do tell me how you can interrupt a skill with 5 seconds recharge with an interrupt at almost twice that? Do you honestly think that if they cast Lightning Strike once its going to matter all that much? If they cast Ether Prodigy and could then spam BF and LS alot more often because you decided to somehow interrupt EP using only 1 interrupt, i'm sure it will cause many more problems, specially against your warriors.
I don't see how there the net energy loss is greater. And until you see it all your points towards it are simply null and void. I'll make it quite simple:
Power Spike, 10 Energy
Power Return, 5 Energy
Orison of Healing, 5 Energy.
Net Loss with Power Spike = 10 - 5 = 5 Energy
Net Loss with Power Return = 5 - 0 = 5 Energy
Are you sure your getting this? The net loss is the same on both interrupts. There is no 'mesmers favour', both are exactly the same! I may have this ready on copy/paste and just automatically send it at the end of every post in this section.
As for energy been of little worry for this class, yes i'd agree, probably because that class has the BEST energy management skill in the game available for a measily 5 energy. But instead why not cast Arcane Languor on this target and screw interrupting? Well they can do 2 things, cast through it and end up with lots of exhaustion, or not bother and end up taking lots of damage when EP ends. Of course, i forgot you were using Power Block weren't you, and so far whenever you haven't brought it 'you've wished you had', odd, when i've brought it i've had equally as many situations where 'i wish i'd brought somet else'.
Power Spike is a better option? Honestly, do you even pay attention to the energy costs of these skills? Power Spike is 10 energy for interruption and damage. With 0 in Domination, its absolutely useless. With 0 in Fast Casting (which SHOULD only happen if your not a primary mesmer) you give your target back twice the energy, but you still have an interrupt for 5 energy.
Are you going to pick out another situation, like Sacho said, to put Return in its worse light and the godly interrupt of the gods (Power Block) against a monks main attribute yet again?
Interesting how you seem to think you can constantly interrupt Ether Prodigy with Power Spike. Please do tell me how you can interrupt a skill with 5 seconds recharge with an interrupt at almost twice that? Do you honestly think that if they cast Lightning Strike once its going to matter all that much? If they cast Ether Prodigy and could then spam BF and LS alot more often because you decided to somehow interrupt EP using only 1 interrupt, i'm sure it will cause many more problems, specially against your warriors.
I don't see how there the net energy loss is greater. And until you see it all your points towards it are simply null and void. I'll make it quite simple:
Power Spike, 10 Energy
Power Return, 5 Energy
Orison of Healing, 5 Energy.
Net Loss with Power Spike = 10 - 5 = 5 Energy
Net Loss with Power Return = 5 - 0 = 5 Energy
Are you sure your getting this? The net loss is the same on both interrupts. There is no 'mesmers favour', both are exactly the same! I may have this ready on copy/paste and just automatically send it at the end of every post in this section.
As for energy been of little worry for this class, yes i'd agree, probably because that class has the BEST energy management skill in the game available for a measily 5 energy. But instead why not cast Arcane Languor on this target and screw interrupting? Well they can do 2 things, cast through it and end up with lots of exhaustion, or not bother and end up taking lots of damage when EP ends. Of course, i forgot you were using Power Block weren't you, and so far whenever you haven't brought it 'you've wished you had', odd, when i've brought it i've had equally as many situations where 'i wish i'd brought somet else'.
Eaimirth Etaivella
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsod
Power Spike is a better option? Honestly, do you even pay attention to the energy costs of these skills? Power Spike is 10 energy for interruption and damage. With 0 in Domination, its absolutely useless. With 0 in Fast Casting (which SHOULD only happen if your not a primary mesmer) you give your target back twice the energy, but you still have an interrupt for 5 energy.
Quote: Originally Posted by evilsod Are you going to pick out another situation, like Sacho said, to put Return in its worse light and the godly interrupt of the gods (Power Block) against a monks main attribute yet again? Read my last post; should clear that up.[/quote]
Interesting how you seem to think you can constantly interrupt Ether Prodigy with Power Spike. Please do tell me how you can interrupt a skill with 5 seconds recharge with an interrupt at almost twice that? Do you honestly think that if they cast Lightning Strike once its going to matter all that much? If they cast Ether Prodigy and could then spam BF and LS alot more often because you decided to somehow interrupt EP using only 1 interrupt, i'm sure it will cause many more problems, specially against your warriors.[/quote] Explain to me how you can constantly do it with power return; it has a recharge of 7. You interrupt EP, they hit your for 70. Next 5 seconds, rinse wash repeat. Then you ask your monk how much it was. I'm sure he would have loved the opposite.
Quote:
I don't see how there the net energy loss is greater. And until you see it all your points towards it are simply null and void. I'll make it quite simple:
Power Spike, 10 Energy
Power Return, 5 Energy
Orison of Healing, 5 Energy.
Net Loss with Power Spike = 10 - 5 = 5 Energy
Net Loss with Power Return = 5 - 0 = 5 Energy
Are you sure your getting this? The net loss is the same on both interrupts. There is no 'mesmers favour', both are exactly the same! I may have this ready on copy/paste and just automatically send it at the end of every post in this section. http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Power_Return
Rank 11 is 6 energy gained
Rank 9 is 7 energy gained
Are you getting this or not? *copy+paste to the rest of the posts questioning this*
So it would be more similar to this
Net loss from Power Spike= 10-x=10-x energy
Net loss from power return=5-x+y=5-x+y energy
Where x is the cost of their spell
Where y is the energy returned from power return
y will logically move between 6 and 7 energy returned.
10-x=/=5-x+y
10=/=5+y remove x from both sides
5=/=y subtract 5 from both sides
5=y if fast casting is 14 or greater
5<y if fast casting is anything else
TADA~ math simplified.
Where most mesmers (if not all mesmers) run 9 to 11 in fast casting...you can figure it out.
Basically what you have to decide as a mesmer is if 3 seconds of recharge is worth a net energy loss of 1 or 2 every time you interupt...minus the damage.
Quote:
Sadly i already have 100% exploration on my Ranger and i don't have Factions.... i could revise instead.... but thats just dull Power Spike, 10 Energy
Power Return, 5 Energy
Orison of Healing, 5 Energy.
Net Loss with Power Spike = 10 - 5 = 5 Energy
Net Loss with Power Return = 5 - 0 = 5 Energy
Are you sure your getting this? The net loss is the same on both interrupts. There is no 'mesmers favour', both are exactly the same! I may have this ready on copy/paste and just automatically send it at the end of every post in this section. http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Power_Return
Rank 11 is 6 energy gained
Rank 9 is 7 energy gained
Are you getting this or not? *copy+paste to the rest of the posts questioning this*
So it would be more similar to this
Net loss from Power Spike= 10-x=10-x energy
Net loss from power return=5-x+y=5-x+y energy
Where x is the cost of their spell
Where y is the energy returned from power return
y will logically move between 6 and 7 energy returned.
10-x=/=5-x+y
10=/=5+y remove x from both sides
5=/=y subtract 5 from both sides
5=y if fast casting is 14 or greater
5<y if fast casting is anything else
TADA~ math simplified.
Where most mesmers (if not all mesmers) run 9 to 11 in fast casting...you can figure it out.
Basically what you have to decide as a mesmer is if 3 seconds of recharge is worth a net energy loss of 1 or 2 every time you interupt...minus the damage.
Quote:
I'd rather spend my time upping my master cartographer titles than debate with a wall and end up creating another huge thread, which all Eaimirth threads become because of his inability to change his stance.
Originally Posted by Evilsod
As for energy been of little worry for this class, yes i'd agree, probably because that class has the BEST energy management skill in the game available for a measily 5 energy. But instead why not cast Arcane Languor on this target and screw interrupting? Well they can do 2 things, cast through it and end up with lots of exhaustion, or not bother and end up taking lots of damage when EP ends. Of course, i forgot you were using Power Block weren't you, and so far whenever you haven't brought it 'you've wished you had', odd, when i've brought it i've had equally as many situations where 'i wish i'd brought somet else'.
You know; if you had powerblock they wouldn't have the choice of either A. Hex Removal, or B. Casting through it. They only would have choice C. Taking alot of damage when EP ends. AL lasts for what? 7 seconds? Recharge on it is 15 seconds? Wow...same ratio as powerblock; and I'm even rounding up for you. But this isn't a thread of PB vs AL, this is a thread to determine if Power Return is a valid skill or not *points at math above*
Avarre
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsod
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella
You know; if you had powerblock they wouldn't have the choice of either A. Hex Removal, or B. Casting through it. They only would have choice C. Taking alot of damage when EP ends
I now present a summary of this entire thread:
'Omg power return is better than my bishie power block, don't use return! Here is lots of math showing why if an enemy that just casts without aiming to spike or anything tactical is fought with power return, it will kill your team by making the enemy get +3 net!' As I usually say in these cases.... best thread evarrr!! Sab
EE: I don't know why you're talking about net energy gain/loss as it's completely irrelevant to the subject at hand.
Take, for instance, one of your favourite skills - Blackout. When you use it, you're 10 energy down, possibly in a bad location (due to it's touch range) and your skills are blacked out. This is just as bad, if not worse than your opponent's situation. By your logic, you'd never use this skill because there are other skills out there which don't leave you in such a bad position. Of course that's not true. The point here is - Blackout is worth it when you use it at the right time, like coordinating with a spike by blacking-out an enemy monk. Same deal with Power Return, you need to know when to use it. You do not use it to interrupt low cost or low recharge spells as there are other spells (not limited to interrupts) which can achieve shutdown better than Power Return. No, you use it in situations where you opponent's energy is not an issue, where the spell has a long recharge and the act of interrupting is all that matters. Take, for example, a full-health Ele casting a Deep Freeze, what interrupt are you going to use? Power Spike? The Ele is at full health, 100 damage is inconsequential unless the rest of your team is focused on this target. Power Leak? Energy storage = GG. Power Block? A complete waste of a 30 second recharge skill. If you're going to be bringing that, use it on a higher-priority opponent like a monk. How about Power Return? Cheap, quick recharge interrupt that gets the job done, at 5 energy less than its closest competitor, Power Spike. And for the record, Power Spike has a 12 second recharge, 5 seconds more than Power Return. Eaimirth Etaivella
Screw it; just going to let the thread rot/burn/die/whatever.
I will be waiting to see some build surface using this skill, or some top guild use the skill at all for that matter. Until then; ttyl. Think I will go map as well, only 1.5% to go anyway. Sacho
Well, in such a case, you would actually use a big punishing interrupt - *if* it is available. Nothing matches power return's availability, and again, it doesn't require many points spent in fast casting, as its main effect is the interruption, not the punishment after. In a build already geared with alot of interrupts, it won't be very useful - since you'd often have an interrupt ready to use. But that's *not* where you'd use it, since its main strength is that it's spammable only as one skill, whereas if you want to interrupt constantly with the other interrupts, you'd have to bring at least 2-3.
Also, the comparison between power block and power return was at its core, again flawed, as power block is an elite, and power return is not. Comparing it to the closest, power spike: Power spike costs 10e, Power return costs 5e. Power spike is 12s recharge, Power return is 7s. Power spike deals 107 damage with 16 dom. At 5 FC power return returns 8e. The energy "balance": In 84 seconds, for 70 energy, power spike can land 7 interrupts, doing 749 damage. For 5e spells, it would have drained 35 energy. For 10e spells, it would have drained 70 energy. In 84 seconds, for 60 energy, power return can land 12 interrupts, returning 96 energy. For 5e spells, it would have drained 60 energy. For 10e spells, it would have drained 120. On paper, power return looks bad, indeed. However, it has two significant points for it - you don't have to spec for it to use it, and again, it can be used much more often than even power spike. Why is that good? I already said it. Consistent interrupts. You can't really judge consistent interrupts until you've tried to execute a strategy, only to have half your spells being interrupted. fatboyslimerr
I'll throw at you all this build I spent a long time creating with my mate whos a damned good boon prot and a pro focus swapper. It basically focuses around having high FC (about 14) and using mantra of recovery and power return as well as diversion (and wastrel's worry and shame but these aren't really neccessary). You should instantly think, yay I've got an interrupt with a 3.5 second recharge. My mate says e-denial doesn't worry him because he can just focus swap out of it and hide his energy by using a sword lol. He did say, as a boon prot, he's very frightened of diversion. This build then focuses on spamming diversion, (and WW, so just to see if he's paying attention, if he's not then he'll RoF disabling it for 50+ seconds) then interrupting his hex removal with power return, then casting shame again, so it can be CoP. Then getting diversion in there quickly so it either gets divine boon or RoF, but if nothing else it repeats this process, making him hesitate to do anything. This build relies on power return to interrupt hex removal of shame (or his e-management just to piss him off). My mate says power return is more effective than power spike as the damage will likely get healed and not cause much of a problem (also if only taking one interrupt, PS is costly when used with MoR), power block does worry him but diversion scares him shitless.
Another tactic using the same skills is to drain enchant, followed by diversion (so he won't CoP diversion either because he isn't enchanted or because he doesn't want to get it diverted, he'll just wait it out so you could use WW) then he'll need to recast boon, so cast shame in there quickly if you can, so boon gets interrupted, then diversion again, power returning when needed. This build doesn't focus on interrupting or needing power return, but it complements MoR + power return to make a super fast recharing interrupt which can be used for many purposes (interrupting martyr or just annoying a hex spammer) and limiting his choices. I realise hexes can be removed by his team mates so this is why I would use WW on top of diversion. Shame doesn't need to trigger but it will at least stop them long enough for diversion to recharge before it gets removed. This would complement a water snarer in your team, as water hexes don't really do damage but are great snares and wouldn't really be used on the target your trying to take down, meaning dwaynas kiss wouldn't be a problem (it heals huge amounts on a hexed target due to recent buff). I think EE, just wants to point out his unique way of thinking, no one is wrong but you just want to join the band wagon against EE by really exploiting his examples, which he didn't write in enough detail for heavy criticism. Just my opinion ![]() This is just one example where power return would work well in a build. Bear in mind it could continual interrupt pretty much anyone while your team pressures monks or someone. Say your getting heavily hexed, warriors could pressure monks while you annoy hex spammer. I dunno pick out flaws..no ones perfect ![]() Evilsod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
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Quote: Originally Posted by Avarre
I now present a summary of this entire thread:
'Omg power return is better than my bishie power block, don't use return! Here is lots of math showing why if an enemy that just casts without aiming to spike or anything tactical is fought with power return, it will kill your team by making the enemy get +3 net!'
As I usually say in these cases.... best thread evarrr!! Hehe, you may be right. If i could be arsed i'd check through this entire thread and see if 1 post EE has made doesn't have Power Block mentioned in it somewhere.
I think Sacho has another winner here, someone may be slightly too stubborn to take it into account though, that or mention Power Block
Congratulations, its taken you... how long? About 5 days to finally notice that Power Return probably wouldn't have FC at lvl12 or higher. 1 thing i'd like to know though, knocking out an attribute for 15 seconds? Surely its 16? If thats the case then Power Spike is only doing 100 (i dunno if thats exact number for it).
Also how exactly do you suggest that by casting Power Block on the Ele:
'Omg power return is better than my bishie power block, don't use return! Here is lots of math showing why if an enemy that just casts without aiming to spike or anything tactical is fought with power return, it will kill your team by making the enemy get +3 net!'
As I usually say in these cases.... best thread evarrr!! Hehe, you may be right. If i could be arsed i'd check through this entire thread and see if 1 post EE has made doesn't have Power Block mentioned in it somewhere.
I think Sacho has another winner here, someone may be slightly too stubborn to take it into account though, that or mention Power Block

Congratulations, its taken you... how long? About 5 days to finally notice that Power Return probably wouldn't have FC at lvl12 or higher. 1 thing i'd like to know though, knocking out an attribute for 15 seconds? Surely its 16? If thats the case then Power Spike is only doing 100 (i dunno if thats exact number for it).
Also how exactly do you suggest that by casting Power Block on the Ele:
Quote:
You know; if you had powerblock they wouldn't have the choice of either A. Hex Removal, or B. Casting through it. They only would have choice C. Taking alot of damage when EP ends. AL lasts for what? 7 seconds? Recharge on it is 15 seconds? Wow...same ratio as powerblock; and I'm even rounding up for you. But this isn't a thread of PB vs AL, this is a thread to determine if Power Return is a valid skill or not *points at math above*
Last time i checked they didn't carry Hex Removal anyway, even if they did, why would they waste there time removing it? And casting through it? I'm sorry but you posted that they carry 3 attributes earlier. So what? Your gonna Power Block Air? They can spam Party, interrupt it or not they still lose 15 energy (or Power Return it and they gain some back, leaving em worse off ![]() I'm sorry i didn't realise you were still debating if Power Return was a good skill, i thought this was the Power Block appreciation thread. I merely mentioned AL to make 1 point, you've been mentioning PB the entire thread in a direct comparison with the non-elite Power Return. Either stop mentioning Power Block COMPLETELY or start comparing it to Power Leech, its your choice. Do you mind posting us a picture of your shrine? I want to see if it really does PB justice. Themis
Another idea : Power Retun would also combine well with MoR, isn't it ? Same attribute, doubles availability
![]() Perhaps someone has already proposed this, hard to find in this dedealous thread... ![]() ![]() fatboyslimerr
16 fast casting ftw !!! lol nice idea but highly impractical. I wonder if anyone could possibly have anything more to say about our beloved power return ??
Perhaps a build using arcane echo + arcane mimicry to echo power block while using MoR to spam power return. I am of course being stupid ![]() Evilsod
Impractical means nothing when the build does what it was designed for. 16 Fast Casting, 13 Inspiration (seriously im thinking of this in 10 seconds). Mantra of Recovery and Power Return (what is it, 2 or 3 energy?) at a 3.5s recharge with Power Drain for energy management meets interrupt a res signet.... and 4 other skills. Spirit Shackles? Spirit of Failure? Inspired xxx. Ethereal Burden (or is that Illusion?). The possibilty/stupidity is endless
![]() If only i had factions... i'd be in RA messing around with that build now. fatboyslimerr
I don't think it would work well in RA, only well coordinated GvG. Used it last night basically diversioning a monk constantly and interrupting every diversion/backfire enemy mesmer did as well as the evil dwaynas kiss (that was a priority interrupt), it was great fun. I currently use
14 FC 12 Domination 9 Inspiration its nice because E-Tap gets off in under a second, MoR lasts for 19 seconds but power return still gives back 5 energy to foe. pigdestroyer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella
CoP/CoP/CoP/CoP
MoR/lyssas balance/drain enchant
Brother Foon Sped
I've been enjoying this discussion. I found this build and thought that I'd post it as it is relevant. It is an excellent application of power return.
The synergy is with "wither" and Power Return. Wither a very long duration of 29 seconds of -4 health deg and - 2 energy deg BUT ends if the person runs out of energy. Power returen is a semi spamable interrupt that in most cases will keep the caster with at least some energy and keep wither going. http://www.curse-gaming.com/en/guildwars/build-226.html P.S. I also enjoy this sites build creator feature, check it out. fatboyslimerr
Nice build, nice site, good job Brother Foon Sped. I've bin looking at a wither build for awhile now, and yours makes great use of power return. Although I'm not very fond of the ... of failure combo, the rest of your skills are super. I would perhaps replace spirit of failure for well of weariness and price of failure for possibly ether lord or malaise (neither of these skills are ideal but they can both do the job of energy degen).
Its a nice try to combined warrior management with e-denial but, like almost everyone says these days, its not a good idea to split your build's purpose too much. I would stick with e-degen and I would take: (although your skills are fine, this is just my personal preference although you wanna think about well of weariness) Wither {E} Parasitic Bond Power Return Well of Weariness Ether Lord/Malaise/IoR -- whatever you feel like basically -- Distortion Drain Enchant/P. Drain Res One option is to boost illusion and take more degen, possibly images of remorse, to accompany wither but distortion is a good idea for sure. Again, good work Brother Foon Sped Brother Foon Sped
Thanks my man. I can only say that I "happened" upon the site and the build. The build is not of my making.
I did try it out and it does seem like it's spread a bit thin. I did ok when I was left alone. I did mess another mesmer up one time good. Love it when you hit their ether feast. As far as the spirit of F and the price of failure combo I'm unclear as to how well they stack in regards to a warriors chance to miss. I was dissapointed by the amount of energy I was getting back on this as well as it being a defense for myself. Parasitic bond at that level of curses, though serving as both a cover and a heal, really wasn't as good a heal as etherfeast. fatboyslimerr
Parasitic Bond is more importantly a cover, don't think about taking a skill just to heal (for PvP) because your monks should be doing that. The advantage of parasitic bond is that it gives you a heal as a bonus.
Spirit/Price do stack so a warrior has a 50% chance to miss but its 2 skills to do what blurred vision could do in one (think team work again). Although spirit/price + distortion is a good combo if that warrior is attacking you. 50% chance + 75% chance ![]() Gonna be capping Wither later ![]() Evilsod
I'd say take Malaise personally and scrapping Well of Weariness. Simply giving a caster 0 regen and if they are unlucky, leaving them with 2 Energy, incapable to do anything.
Of course, Focus Swapping makes both of those skills rather useless. Simply switch off, giving yourself as little energy as possible, cancels off Wither/Malaise and switch back and carry on. fatboyslimerr
This is why I like diversion, for that exact reason but lets not go into detail .... I think wither is still an option because if they focus swap before 0 energy, they'll still have wither on them and it will last its full duration rather than ending when foe reaches 0 energy, and if you degen their alternate focus/wand stuff then they got nothing left
![]() Still need to try it though, see how well it works. Don't write off well of weariness though, it lasts for ages and is good corpse control. corrupted bloodline
To the OP:
If you can't see the value of interrupting a key spell with Power Return, I wonder why you even bother playing a mesmer. Interrupting isn't necessarily about quantity, it's a bout quality (i.e. spell selection). You spoke of interrupting things like Flare and Blinding Flash. Why the hell would you bother interrupting these low-recharge spells with Power Return? As many people before me have said, pick and choose the right spells at the right times to interrupt (i.e. high recharge, high cost, energy management spells, etc.). I know this thread is a dead horse and I'm just kicking it, but I was so annoyed by the sheer short-sightedness of the OP that I had to post. Evilsod
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboyslimerr
This is why I like diversion, for that exact reason but lets not go into detail .... I think wither is still an option because if they focus swap before 0 energy, they'll still have wither on them and it will last its full duration rather than ending when foe reaches 0 energy, and if you degen their alternate focus/wand stuff then they got nothing left
![]() Still need to try it though, see how well it works. Don't write off well of weariness though, it lasts for ages and is good corpse control. 'Wither ends if target foes energy reaches 0.' All the monk needs to do (i had the wrong idea for this too) is switch his focus on, cast a spell, switch back. He gets -3 energy, Wither ends and he has to regen a bit. If he needs to cast a spell there and then, switch back to his focus, cast, switch back and wait for some more regen. Aslong as Wither (not Malaise since it aint elite) has ends on 0 energy its really not gonna do anything. The only skills that can really help there are Power Leak (since they will have to have there focus on, leaving em with a BIG minus energy), and Mind Wrack to make em take 95 damage whenever they do focus swap. Yeah i forgot Well of Weariness has an absolutely ridiculous duration, somet like 50 seconds at lvl12 Curses isnt it? fatboyslimerr
Aye, its still pretty long even with low curses.
If I use Wither, I would use diversion straight after, so monk starts to lose energy, focus swaps (maybe use mind wrack too) but he'll have diversion on him which he won't CoP for obvious reasons. Firstly this protects wither (at least from some hex removal, which is why mink wrack is an idea also) but also limits his choice of skills to cast after focus swapping, as in whatever he casts will get disabled for like 50 seconds. I would consider using power return in the same build, to interrupt monks own hex removal of diversion, since things like inspired/revealed hex are easy to interrupt and give energy back to them to prolong the length of wither. I'm just deciding if wither could ever replace mantra of recovery on my mesmer. MoR + power return really are a great combo + diversion every 5 seconds. Great stuff ![]() |