Touch Ranger - Overpowered?
MasterThrawn
Was fighting this annoying little Luxon with Vampiric Bite, and Vampiric Touch (what's the difference???). He kept spamming them over and over again. He would just run up to someone and keep hitting them, so each time he would not only do damage, but was healed for quite a bit. If he ever got in trouble he would Storm Chase, and than come back and do it again. Why would they put two skills in the game that are exactly the same that people could put on their skill bar? Can I get a duplicate of Hundred Blades please? Who needs echo anyway.
aron searle
Best way to counter a touch build, move.
Try and cripple them, or use spells like spitefull spirit.
Try and cripple them, or use spells like spitefull spirit.
Divinus Stella
Yes i agree, duplicate hundred blades, noting more dangerous than 2 copies of hundred blades.
Lord Iowerth
Anyone with degen and/or a crippling/slow hex > touch ranger. By the way the build is designed, their only self heal is also their damage ... and they have to be within touch range to use it. So if they can't touch you, they can't hurt you, and also can't heal themselves. Crippling anguish > touchies, Cripshot > touchies, blackout > touchies ... heck, frozen burst > touchies.
If you are playing pvp (and you're not a monk) you should be bringing a snare of some sort ... especially with the re-emergence of touch rangers.
I must admit though, that I had played one a while back when they were first popular (agony/vamp) ... and i'd just like to say one thing to mesmers: PLEASE stop putting empathy and/or backfire on touch rangers, it does absolutely
--->NOTHING AT ALL<----
because both touches are *skills* and not *spells* or *attacks*. You have no idea how often I see this happen ... end of public service announcement
If you are playing pvp (and you're not a monk) you should be bringing a snare of some sort ... especially with the re-emergence of touch rangers.
I must admit though, that I had played one a while back when they were first popular (agony/vamp) ... and i'd just like to say one thing to mesmers: PLEASE stop putting empathy and/or backfire on touch rangers, it does absolutely
--->NOTHING AT ALL<----
because both touches are *skills* and not *spells* or *attacks*. You have no idea how often I see this happen ... end of public service announcement
nohooiam
i've been screaming about a nerf to touch rangers since day one.
G G G G G G G G G G Unit.
G G G G G G G G G G Unit.
BigTru
If it were up to me, I'd simply make it so that Expertise does not effect non-ranger skills. This would cutdown on the end-season thumper spam (OMG, I wanna get top 20 by then of the season... THUMPER TYME!!2!!!) and the RA touch rangers. Expertise would still be the single most overpowered primary attribute, but atleast it'd see SOME attention, as far as balancing goes.
Good thing I'm not a dev, huh ranger fanboys?
Good thing I'm not a dev, huh ranger fanboys?
Wrath Of Dragons
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTru
If it were up to me, I'd simply make it so that Expertise does not effect non-ranger skills. This would cutdown on the end-season thumper spam (OMG, I wanna get top 20 by then of the season... THUMPER TYME!!2!!!) and the RA touch rangers. Expertise would still be the single most overpowered primary attribute, but atleast it'd see SOME attention, as far as balancing goes.
Good thing I'm not a dev, huh ranger fanboys? primary attributes are designed to benifiet any secondary class, not just the primary class. or else, all primarys would be much less useful
Good thing I'm not a dev, huh ranger fanboys? primary attributes are designed to benifiet any secondary class, not just the primary class. or else, all primarys would be much less useful
Terra Xin
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTru
Good thing I'm not a dev, huh ranger fanboys?
Correction: Touch Ranger. R-spikers have a really bad time with this build, even with their interrupts.
Correction: Touch Ranger. R-spikers have a really bad time with this build, even with their interrupts.
lyra_song
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTru
If it were up to me, I'd simply make it so that Expertise does not effect non-ranger skills. This would cutdown on the end-season thumper spam (OMG, I wanna get top 20 by then of the season... THUMPER TYME!!2!!!) and the RA touch rangers. Expertise would still be the single most overpowered primary attribute, but atleast it'd see SOME attention, as far as balancing goes.
Good thing I'm not a dev, huh ranger fanboys? Ok, so lets see....A Primary profession's attribute shouldnt be useful on secondary skills?
So essentially you want to destroy the flexibility and build synergies that makes Guild Wars unique?
So an elementalists' energy storage cannot be used on non-elementalist skills.
Mesmer's fast cast cant be used on any spells outside of mesmer spells.
Warriors cant gain adrenaline except with warrior melee weapons.
Necromancers cant use their gained energy from soul reaping except for necro spells.
Assassins can only use critical strikes with daggers.
Why even bother having a secondary profession? Why not just disable that? Its obviously too powerful!
-_-
</ rant >
Good thing I'm not a dev, huh ranger fanboys? Ok, so lets see....A Primary profession's attribute shouldnt be useful on secondary skills?
So essentially you want to destroy the flexibility and build synergies that makes Guild Wars unique?
So an elementalists' energy storage cannot be used on non-elementalist skills.
Mesmer's fast cast cant be used on any spells outside of mesmer spells.
Warriors cant gain adrenaline except with warrior melee weapons.
Necromancers cant use their gained energy from soul reaping except for necro spells.
Assassins can only use critical strikes with daggers.
Why even bother having a secondary profession? Why not just disable that? Its obviously too powerful!
-_-
</ rant >
BigTru
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyra_song
Ok, so lets see....A Primary profession's attribute shouldnt be useful on secondary skills?
So essentially you want to destroy the flexibility and build synergies that makes Guild Wars unique? Exactly how would this be any differant from how Divine Favor works???
So essentially you want to destroy the flexibility and build synergies that makes Guild Wars unique? Exactly how would this be any differant from how Divine Favor works???
Stabber
I remain firmly of the opinion that Touch Rangers are the best thing to happen to RA. TRs weed out the irredeemably stupid from the slightly clever, which is a boon for PvP as a whole. TRs can be countered with exactly one skill if you put a little thought into it (left as an exercise for the reader). No change to Expertise necessary.
zulu123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Iowerth
Anyone with degen and/or a crippling/slow hex > touch ranger.
The above means a warrior is pretty much screwed when confronted with a touch ranger. Either we cripple the touch ranger and start running away OR we attack him and die. I know a warrior should also run when times are bad. But does that mean we put our tails between our legs and run whenever we see a touch ranger?
Also, I think an appropriate nerf would be making those touch *skills* as *spells*. That way expertise wont be useless with ALL secondary profession skills, just these 2 or 3 overpowered spammable ones. Or atleast increase the recharge on them.
Also, I think an appropriate nerf would be making those touch *skills* as *spells*. That way expertise wont be useless with ALL secondary profession skills, just these 2 or 3 overpowered spammable ones. Or atleast increase the recharge on them.
Wrath Of Dragons
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTru
Exactly how would this be any differant from how Divine Favor works???
blessed signet works off of an assassins maintained enchantments. haha!!!!!!
lyra_song
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTru
Exactly how would this be any differant from how Divine Favor works???
Did you notice my list didnt include Rit and Monks intentionally?
Support characters reverse the synergy, taking advantage of secondary. while still relying on their primary to still maintain use of the build.
Attack characters who use a secondary build rely on that primary to make their build different (like touch rangers, fast cast elemesmers, echo nukers), as opposed to a character who uses the same build, but has the actually primary attribute.
Support characters reverse the synergy, taking advantage of secondary. while still relying on their primary to still maintain use of the build.
Attack characters who use a secondary build rely on that primary to make their build different (like touch rangers, fast cast elemesmers, echo nukers), as opposed to a character who uses the same build, but has the actually primary attribute.
zulu123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabber
TRs can be countered with exactly one skill if you put a little thought into it (left as an exercise for the reader).
Would you be talking about Wild Blow by any chance? Too bad in RAs you need very generic build that kinda works against all types of classes/builds. I gave Wild Blow a serious thought but it just gets used too little in RA.
that red guy
Your right a warrior is screwed when he is attacked by a touch ranger, but is there something I missed that any builds that force a warrior to run should be nerfed to the ground. Lots of builds can make my monk run and they havent been removed from the game yet.
Guild wars is a game of counters it just so happens that lots and lots of people are playing something that counters warriors in RA, maybe its because lots of people play as warriors there. The name of the game is kiting.
Guild wars is a game of counters it just so happens that lots and lots of people are playing something that counters warriors in RA, maybe its because lots of people play as warriors there. The name of the game is kiting.
Loki Seiguro
Quote:
Originally Posted by nohooiam
i've been screaming about a nerf to touch rangers since day one.
G G G G G G G G G G Unit. i am a touch ranger maniac so no i dont want them to be banned
and anyway its almost like saying ban IWAY..not quite but a little bit......
also its very very ez to defeat any spike group or touch rangers.
G G G G G G G G G G Unit. i am a touch ranger maniac so no i dont want them to be banned
and anyway its almost like saying ban IWAY..not quite but a little bit......
also its very very ez to defeat any spike group or touch rangers.
Wrath Of Dragons
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyra_song
Did you notice my list didnt include Rit and Monks intentionally?
Support characters reverse the synergy, taking advantage of secondary. while still relying on their primary to still maintain use of the build.
Attack characters who use a secondary build rely on that primary to make their build different (like touch rangers, fast cast elemesmers, echo nukers), as opposed to a character who uses the same build, but has the actually primary attribute. Rits Affect Minions and ranger spirits
Blessed Sig affects assasssin maintained enchants
Support characters reverse the synergy, taking advantage of secondary. while still relying on their primary to still maintain use of the build.
Attack characters who use a secondary build rely on that primary to make their build different (like touch rangers, fast cast elemesmers, echo nukers), as opposed to a character who uses the same build, but has the actually primary attribute. Rits Affect Minions and ranger spirits
Blessed Sig affects assasssin maintained enchants
prism2525
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabber
TRs can be countered with exactly one skill if you put a little thought into it (left as an exercise for the reader).
Backfire right? Might be wrong but it's the 1st thing that came to my mind.
Edit: the vamp stuff is a skill, not a spell. Diversion maybe. It would cut one of them for a while
Edit: the vamp stuff is a skill, not a spell. Diversion maybe. It would cut one of them for a while
Taurus
Every good sword warrior carry hamstring with him, final+sever+gash+hamstring > any touch build.( to avoid plague touch, use hamstring+sever+gash ).
lyra_song
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath Of Dragons
Rits Affect Minions and ranger spirits
Blessed Sig affects assasssin maintained enchants Really?! In that case, NERF IT!! Its wrong!! XD
Blessed Sig affects assasssin maintained enchants Really?! In that case, NERF IT!! Its wrong!! XD
zulu123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurus
( to avoid plague touch, use hamstring+sever+gash ).
Eh, how does that sequence avoid plague touch? If anything you are just giving him one condition per attack skill to plague touch it right back to you.
Dr Ripley
Haven't been in RA too much, but this build is more than popular in 12vs12 at the moment. As a monk, being surrounded by half a dozen TRs can be more than difficult at times (Spellbreaker obviously doesn't work either). I don't see a nerf coming anytime soon, but changing those two skills to spells would be the way to go...
Stabber
Quote:
Originally Posted by zulu123
Quote:
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Originally Posted by prism2525
the vamp stuff is a skill, not a spell. Diversion maybe. It would cut one of them for a while
Glad you corrected yourself there. Yes, Backfire and Empathy are both equally useless. Spiteful Spirit works somewhat, but it is also not very good at preventing the huge life stealing that a toucher can dish out.
Diversion is an awesome anti-spammer skill, but if the ranger brings Oath Shot then it will be wasted. But it's not a bad suggestion. The skill I'm referring to is even more basic though. Think about why a ranger can spam 15 energy skills while a necro cannot. What resource does the touching ranger require most? How can you deny it? eternal pho
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterThrawn
Was fighting this annoying little Luxon with Vampiric Bite, and Vampiric Touch (what's the difference???). He kept spamming them over and over again. He would just run up to someone and keep hitting them, so each time he would not only do damage, but was healed for quite a bit. If he ever got in trouble he would Storm Chase, and than come back and do it again. Why would they put two skills in the game that are exactly the same that people could put on their skill bar? Can I get a duplicate of Hundred Blades please? Who needs echo anyway.
It'd be pretty pointless to have a duplicate of Hundred Blades..because it's an elite skill if you don't know, you could only have 1 of them.
lyra_song
The only thing that Anet needs to fix is so that when you RUN out of range, the touch shouldnt activate.
Kurow
They need to make the recharge longer. Like 15 seconds or something. I cant see any way of fixing it besides making it a spell, or just crippling it by making it steal less.
zulu123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath Of Dragons
Blessed Sig affects assasssin maintained enchants
I think he was talking about the attribute 'Divine Favor' not working with any other secondary profession skills. Not some DF signet that gives you 3 energy every 10 seconds after a casting time of 2 seconds. Whoopity Doo what would I do with that much energy!!!
Check out the enormous difference with what 'Expertise' the attribute makes to skills like Vampiric Touch and Vampiric Bite. It basically overpowers them, plain and simple. Then we will talk about what difference the attribute 'Divine Favor' makes to some secondary profession powers, if any. achilles ankle
I think everyone has to calm down about the touch ranger build. Its just a build that sumone(prob mroe than one) person thought of and, yes it may be "overpowered" but it is just another spike build. TR are a "spike" build ( because they can inflict large amounts of dmg in a short period of time) The TR can use their 2 touch skills 4 times in 4 seconds(maybe a few seconds longer cant do math right now). This results in over 200 dmg in a very small amount of time. The one single best way to counter this build, is energy denial. If u have a mesmer using energy denial spells, u can pretty much shutdown the touch ranger. In between the recharges toss in an ether feast and a blackout and ur problem is solved. I say this from experience because wehn all the TR's energy is gone, they are just sitting ducks.
If your a warrior or ele, take a knockdown, its a cheap and effective way to get them off u for a few seconds. Its just a matter of time, thats the beauty of GW, every build/prof has a counter. pls excuze any spelling mistakes 
lyra_song
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...3&postcount=33
http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3037967
Lord Iowerth
Quote:
Originally Posted by zulu123
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All classes have an inherent other class that they are weak against ... or should I say, each build has a weakness against another. I can play a N/Me with tons of warrior/ranger hate, but i'm going to get owned by casters. I can play lots of caster hate, and get owned by warriors ... or I can make a balanced build and do decent against most everything.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by zulu123
Also, I think an appropriate nerf would be making those touch *skills* as *spells*. That way expertise wont be useless with ALL secondary profession skills, just these 2 or 3 overpowered spammable ones. Or atleast increase the recharge on them.
You'd have to change every touch skill in the game, and if you made them spells they would have a range. There are no direct-target, non AoE touch "spells" in the game. Anything that requires a touch is a skill, not a spell, and is designed that way to give it balance for it being more powerful. IE, you can't sit at a safe distance and use this skill, you must be "in the fray." Would you like to see throw dirt turned into a spell too? It's a touch skill.
lyra_song
Quote:
Originally Posted by zulu123
Check out the enormous difference with what 'Expertise' the attribute makes to skills like Vampiric Touch and Vampiric Bite. It basically overpowers them, plain and simple. Then we will talk about what difference the attribute 'Divine Favor' makes to some secondary profession powers, if any. |
Quote:
Did you notice my list didnt include Rit and Monks intentionally?
Support characters reverse the synergy, taking advantage of secondary. while still relying on their primary to still maintain use of the build.
Attack characters who use a secondary build rely on that primary to make their build different (like touch rangers, fast cast elemesmers, echo nukers), as opposed to a character who uses the same build, but has the actually primary attribute. What is the purpose of each primary attribute? Answer yourself this question.
Monk: Divine Favor = More healing
Warrior: Strength = More Damage
Elementalist: Energy Storage = More energy for spells, enchants, hexes
Necromancer: Soul Reaping = Fast energy recovery
Mesmer: Fast Casting = Fast spell casting for interrupts/annoyance
Ranger: Expertise = Reduction of cost of Non-spells, non-enchants, non-hexes.
I could make the same arguement that Necros and Elementalists primaries need to be nerfed because they can spam heal party way better than most heal monks can.
Support characters reverse the synergy, taking advantage of secondary. while still relying on their primary to still maintain use of the build.
Attack characters who use a secondary build rely on that primary to make their build different (like touch rangers, fast cast elemesmers, echo nukers), as opposed to a character who uses the same build, but has the actually primary attribute. What is the purpose of each primary attribute? Answer yourself this question.
Monk: Divine Favor = More healing
Warrior: Strength = More Damage
Elementalist: Energy Storage = More energy for spells, enchants, hexes
Necromancer: Soul Reaping = Fast energy recovery
Mesmer: Fast Casting = Fast spell casting for interrupts/annoyance
Ranger: Expertise = Reduction of cost of Non-spells, non-enchants, non-hexes.
I could make the same arguement that Necros and Elementalists primaries need to be nerfed because they can spam heal party way better than most heal monks can.
Kurow
I think that a warrior shouldnt have to have skills expressly for dealing with touch rangers. Yes you can just run away, but while a warrior is running, all it can do is use shouts, so the TR pretty much shuts it down. Yes its true that every build has its counters, but the TR is good against most things, and doesnt have common and clear counters. That is why they need to be nerfed. Sure you can make builds that can beat them, but are these builds comperably good as other builds?
Retribution X
It's not a good build, Because they can spam it all day, and there are NO ways to really stop it.
Crip will stop their running, but then they go after the NPC's... The only big way to stop them is E-denial, Which is a VERY specalised build, which only works on touch rangers, and necros...
When you get 7 touch rangers after you (that happened to me today in AB...), there is absolutly NO way to counter that many of them, which gets really darn annoying...
The only current way, other than criple is just spam interrupts, hoping it'll hit something, if they don't have a dodging skill active already...
And, It's really boring going up against pretty much the same build wherever I play PvP at. HA, AB, RA, TA, they're everywhere. And also because the counters are hard to make (Not to mention they only work against one), They are the hardest build to counter.
Also, More than half of the interrupts are for spells only, and do absolutly nothing to them.
This is a build that definatly needs nerfing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Iowerth
Crip will stop their running, but then they go after the NPC's... The only big way to stop them is E-denial, Which is a VERY specalised build, which only works on touch rangers, and necros...
When you get 7 touch rangers after you (that happened to me today in AB...), there is absolutly NO way to counter that many of them, which gets really darn annoying...
The only current way, other than criple is just spam interrupts, hoping it'll hit something, if they don't have a dodging skill active already...
And, It's really boring going up against pretty much the same build wherever I play PvP at. HA, AB, RA, TA, they're everywhere. And also because the counters are hard to make (Not to mention they only work against one), They are the hardest build to counter.
Also, More than half of the interrupts are for spells only, and do absolutly nothing to them.
This is a build that definatly needs nerfing.
Quote:
Once a touchie sees a condition or two on them they inevitably go for plague touch. Disrupt that and it's GG touchie, just kite away. Disabling their vamp skills also makes a touchie go from high DPS to *NOTHING* in no time flat.
Dodge + Vamp touch/Vamp Bite will stop pretty much any kiter...
And exactly how do you disable their skills? ESP when they use a evade skill?
And exactly how do you disable their skills? ESP when they use a evade skill?
BigTru
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyra_song
What is the purpose of each primary attribute? Answer yourself this question.
Monk: Divine Favor = More healing
Warrior: Strength = More Damage
Elementalist: Energy Storage = More energy for spells, enchants, hexes
Necromancer: Soul Reaping = Fast energy recovery
Mesmer: Fast Casting = Fast spell casting for interrupts/annoyance
Ranger: Expertise = Reduction of cost of Non-spells, non-enchants, non-hexes. Noe tell me again why that is an argument against them changing expertise from "Reduction of cost of Non-spells, non-enchants, non-hexes." to Reduction of cost of Ranger skills"?
At the very least, Expertise should be half effective with non-Ranger skills.
Monk: Divine Favor = More healing
Warrior: Strength = More Damage
Elementalist: Energy Storage = More energy for spells, enchants, hexes
Necromancer: Soul Reaping = Fast energy recovery
Mesmer: Fast Casting = Fast spell casting for interrupts/annoyance
Ranger: Expertise = Reduction of cost of Non-spells, non-enchants, non-hexes. Noe tell me again why that is an argument against them changing expertise from "Reduction of cost of Non-spells, non-enchants, non-hexes." to Reduction of cost of Ranger skills"?
At the very least, Expertise should be half effective with non-Ranger skills.
BigTru
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyra_song
What is the purpose of each primary attribute? Answer yourself this question.
Monk: Divine Favor = More healing
Warrior: Strength = More Damage
Elementalist: Energy Storage = More energy for spells, enchants, hexes
Necromancer: Soul Reaping = Fast energy recovery
Mesmer: Fast Casting = Fast spell casting for interrupts/annoyance
Ranger: Expertise = Reduction of cost of Non-spells, non-enchants, non-hexes. Now tell me again why that is an argument against them changing expertise from "Reduction of cost of Non-spells, non-enchants, non-hexes." to Reduction of cost of Ranger skills"?
At the very least, Expertise should be half effective with non-Ranger skills.
Monk: Divine Favor = More healing
Warrior: Strength = More Damage
Elementalist: Energy Storage = More energy for spells, enchants, hexes
Necromancer: Soul Reaping = Fast energy recovery
Mesmer: Fast Casting = Fast spell casting for interrupts/annoyance
Ranger: Expertise = Reduction of cost of Non-spells, non-enchants, non-hexes. Now tell me again why that is an argument against them changing expertise from "Reduction of cost of Non-spells, non-enchants, non-hexes." to Reduction of cost of Ranger skills"?
At the very least, Expertise should be half effective with non-Ranger skills.
Kurow
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTru
Now tell me again why that is an argument against them changing expertise from "Reduction of cost of Non-spells, non-enchants, non-hexes." to Reduction of cost of Ranger skills"?
At the very least, Expertise should be half effective with non-Ranger skills. Thats ridiculous, that would destroy the rangers ability to make synergetic builds with secondaries like warrior and assassins.
At the very least, Expertise should be half effective with non-Ranger skills. Thats ridiculous, that would destroy the rangers ability to make synergetic builds with secondaries like warrior and assassins.
lyra_song
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurow
My point exactly. Nerfing either expertise OR the touch skills is very SHORT SIGHTED.
IF and IF Anet decides that the touch ranger build is TOO powerful (which i dont believe it is, and trust me, ive met lots of touch rangers, they LOVE alliance battle) then they need to come up with a reasonable compromise between the "skills" and expertise, because this is a VERY broad spectrum that both these categories cover.
Removing touch skills from expertise is non-sensical because THROW DIRT is an expertise skill and a touch skill. VOILA.
How can you make exceptions to nerf 2 specific touch skills? That in itself would be imbalanced.
Konrow
i've run a touch build once in a while and most of the good groups know how to beat me easily but the ones that have bad teamates can't do crap against me. its not always crippling, i've seen some really good tactics tried in order to beat me and they work.
J3mo
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron searle
Best way to counter a touch build, move.
Try and cripple them, or use spells like spitefull spirit. Like that is on everyone's skillbar
Try and cripple them, or use spells like spitefull spirit. Like that is on everyone's skillbar