"Cookie Cutter Builds"

Wow, I do not even know where to start.

Guild Wars, a game of balanceness and fairness every, character is no stronger than the other (besides levels), every profession has its weaknesses and strength's. Now I've seen many posts in the past and even some right now about "Cookie Cutter Builds", builds that people think are unfair and take no skill. And everyone even agrees with ANET that this is a skill based game not a "phat gear with uber weapons game". But these builds are totally fine and are good that people can use their minds to configure useful and working strategys to win matches or farm areas. Say IWAY a build that totally whooped, so called balanced teams, but wait balanced must usually be cookie cutter too with their boon prot,bonder,thumper,shock warrior,SS Necro,Orders ect.. Popular and well used builds that are called cookie cutter just because they are effective. From what I hear only good builds are the ones you make yourself, but again wait a moment what if someone sees your build and thinks it's effective and starts using it himself and then the next and then the next and then the next, till everyone uses that build and it becomes cookie cutter.
There really is no cheap or easy to play build because it has its weaknesses and counters to it, and either way playing the build or countering it takes skill.
There is nothing wrong with "cookie cutter builds" or your very own builds, they are all balanced and not cheap.

Moraleon't complain about "cookie cutter builds in pve or pvp, if its in pvp just make a counter to it and render it useless, thats the great thing about guild wars...there is no UB3R 1337 Build or skill.


Over and out.

Two people could run the EXACT same setup (same armor, skills, weaps, attribs) but one person will always play the build better.

It doesn't matter what you're running if you don't know how to run it properly.

Well, if you complain about cookie cutter builds in PvP, you can just sit down and shut up.

If a build works, then chances are that people will use it. If you can't beat it even with constant competition against it, then you've got a problem.

I don't even know why people out there even bother complaining. It's really not going to change anything.

when a lot of people start using the same build, other new builds pop up to counter that build. As for your "cookie cutter balanced build", I've seen a LOT that run balanced builds with different setups. Groups that are diverse and know when to change their builds as well as how to use their builds will always end up pulling ahead, 'nuff said.

Hi

Cookie cutter builds are tried and teste dbuilds that work, and generally dont need all that much coordination to get (ie, you can quite often pug them) that i think is one of the main attractions, for those who arent in a guild that pvps a lot, iway is attractive, as you can be ina team within minutes, as opposed to sitting spamming for a group for an hour or 2, get into a group the group fall apart and start over.

And as for pve cookie cutters, again thats a similar prospect, if you take people who have a cookie cutter build, you maximise the chances of doing well.

oljomo

cookie cutters are very good build thats y people use them. In PvP im always testing out new builds and such and if I find a good one i tell people about it/post it so then it becomes a cookie cutter. Theres absolutely nothing wrong with them in PvP.

However, in PvE 1 of the chars I play is a necro, whcih i usually run N/Me unless im running a MM whcih i change to N/Mo. I hate going into a group and the people ask "are you a MM or SS?" which i reply "I'm neither" (i usually run degen/blood attack build).

if all possible builds were represented as a planet, then cookie cutter builds would be the hills and mountains, while random crap builds would be way below sea level, and i spose functional but crap builds like mending warrior would be at sea level.

the issue with cookie cutter builds, is there is no way to work out if youre on a hill or a mountain. sometimes you have try the crap builds inbetween, the valleys, to find an even larger mountain that represents a much better build.

its impossible for any single player to try every single combination themselves, so the community contributes to the job by giving us starting points at varying heights from which we can continue our search.

however this doesnt mean cookie cutter builds are inherently bad, its all a matter of your purpose in this game, if you have time to traverse the crap builds on the way to better ones - power to you! if you would rather focus on the playing than the building - cookie cutter ftw!

what i dont like is when someone tries something new and everyone is all 'zomg why dont you use what everyone else uses!!!' - i can understand pointing out that echo mending is crap no matter what - but the middle ground is there, and i think people on both sides have to compromise.

for pvp - its pretty much set builds, about the most flexibility youll get is maybe just maybe 1-2 skills to choose, while the rest is setup by whoever is making the group.

for pve - it should be about roles, instead of telling a necro to run mm, tell your necro you want some corpse control and some pressure damage. be specific about what tasks the player should be able to complete, but give them the flexibility to work the skills they want to use. infact if you really wanna be holistic about it, get 8 various professions - and then tick off each task you need taken care of, with anyone volunteering for whatever roles they want to fill.

...yeah its idealistic :P

If you could at least write WTF is cookie butter build before writing roman about it I'd be greatefull. :P

There is already a very popular thread discussing this that was started yesterday. I know you're trying to get your point across by posting a whole new thread but the forum doesn't really need two.

Let me also reiterate a point I made in another thread, cookie cutter builds also have known counters and they tend to put (lesser) players into a mindset which is detrimental.

IWAY? Dont kill the pet, right? Hammer W/R, aha, Bunny Thumper!

Ofcourse, the creative mind will not use IWAY at all but nasty pet attacks like poison, just a small example of how cookie cutter mindset can also work badly against you.

The skill 'I Will Avenge You' has almost nothing to do with the IWAY build. In fact the main problems are caused by the spirits imo.

the problem is that Iway does NOT work like that, it does not take alot of skill at all to be in an effective Iway team, balanced and builds of the like are allways different by who is playing them, iway is iway and it is cookie cutter.
There is no argument here that is that.

You guys get me all wrong I'm with "cookie cutter builds" they are effective and useful but people discriminate them just because they are widely used and very very good.But people are complaining about them and I am trying to say why they are ok and not bad

Jonny with all the new skills out with factions IWAY does take skill because there is so many ways to render it useless,shadow of fear,faithheartedness,price of failure,empathy,spirit of failure,reckless haste,clumsiness and soo many more

To the OP,

The fact in any form of combat (except those running according to the Art of War by Sun-tsu) is doing more damage faster than the enemy can obsorb it.

For all of the supposed balances in the game, there are definate exploits because not all classes have damage that does the exact same DPS against available defense. The only defense against health draining is remove hex (or possibly a shield -2 while hexed I have no evidence that the -2 works to undermine degen). Mathematicians have been analyzing this game since it went active and create "cookie cutter builds" based upon the results. Those builds are based upon the damage versus available defense options/exploits.

What this effectively means is that alternate class combinations based upon a poetic theme have no value, regardless of the skill level of the player. If you don't conform to the best build for DPS against the available defense then you lose. For some of us, the problem is we do not enjoy being forced to be what everyone else is in order to be successful with who and what we are or believe in. The characters are an alternate self-identity in a virtual reality, or a conceptual extension of ourselves. For all of the supposed options for play, the reality is very different. If you cannot be effective at what you want then you may conform to being something else, or refuse to participate at all. Either way, you cannot be content with second rate self-concepts forced upon you by life or a game? (Perhaps why approximately 70%of people are estimated to be unhappy in their employment.)

Fitz

This is more over a skill based game. Yes you can run a cookie cutter build but eventually you get a feel for what skills you like and what skills you dont like. It all boils down to knowing the skills by instinct and effectively making use of all 8 skills on your bar (yes even the rez.. if you use one). For example, I run a boonprot monk and for awhile when I was new to boonprot I was using the basic cookie cutter skills:

Signet Devotion
Reversal of Fortune
Guardian
Mend Condition
Contemplation of Purity <333333!!!
Mantra of Recovery {E}
Divine Boon

15 Divine Favor
10 Protection Prayers
9 Inspiration

For awhile it was hard because I kept on forgetting to recast divine boon when I was shattered. I also kept targeting myself with mend condition thinking I could heal myself with it and was always too late to hit CoP. After more playing I switched out Mend Condition for Mend Ailemnt. Things got alot easier and I found myself much more effective with Ailment since I could heal myself (rather than going for the advanced approach with CoP and a boon recast). Since I didn't use CoP much I switched it out with Aegis:

Signet Devotion
Reversal of Fortune
Guardian
Mend Ailment
Aegis
Mantra of Recovery {E}
Divine Boon

15 Divine Favor
10 Protection Prayers
9 Inspiration

At this point I started have issues with effectively using mantra of recovery, it seemed to take sooooo long to get any energy from it... especially with my kephket's. I switched it out of Edrain and was loving the instant energy the new skill was giving me. However only 9 seconds of aegis was looking kind of weak:

Signet Devotion
Reversal of Fortune
Guardian
Mend Ailment
Aegis
Energy Drain {E}
Divine Boon

14 Divine Favor
11 Protection Prayers
9 Inspiration

It was at this point I started running into energy problems due to the high cost of Aegis. I scratched aegis and went back to CoP. However, this time I was much more effective with CoP. This was because my skill as a monk was getting alot better, so I was able to immediately eat hex spikes by buffering a RoF as an extra enchantment because I was so comfortable with my skills. During arborstone our party got into a nasty pinch with an oni rush and I was able to keep the party alive although our primary healer fell by using Mend Ailment to cast through their shrouds. Eventually since I wasn't using Aegis too much anymore I switched to a 2 major rune setup.

Signet Devotion
Reversal of Fortune
Guardian
Mend Ailment
Contemplation of Purity
Energy Drain {E}
Divine Boon

14 Divine Favor
10 Protection Prayers
10 Inspiration

This is the bottom line. I will tell you that I play an effective boonprot monk. In FoW I was able to monk for a 6 man broken party and still clean the place out. All of this is not just because of cookie cutter skills, but because of all I learned by experimenting with the skills of the game. Every skill in guildwars has a different feel. When I boon, I use ALL of my skills to their max potential. There isn't a single wasted slot on my bar, that's why I KNOW it's effective. Cookie cutter builds are great starters if you are learning the basics of a class. But once you learn the dynamics of how your build works, implement other skills that feel more comfortable using.

The problem lies with people that place stereotypes on other based on cookie cutter builds. There will be people that tell you that you suck as a healing monk just because you don't have WoH on your bar. What good is being a WoH healer if the timing of casting WoH to get the bonus feels so alien to you? Personally you will be much better with certain skills than another player will be. There are WoH monks that can get the healspike to save others everytime... and others that can use Healing Light so well they never run out of energy.

Skill and personal preference in this game leads by a huge margin. Good players look past the stereotypes and pick skills to use based on how THEY play and not what other people tell them. Stop trying to make someone tell you what the best build in the game is and start using different combinations to get a feel for what you like. This is what makes and breaks players. Not liking a certain skill and forcing yourself to use it because someone else is telling you its ESSENTIAL to being a good player is just wasting space on your limited 8 slots. People challenge the builds of unique players with these stereotypes... but if you really put alot of effort in personalizing your character you will be laughing in the end when everyone praises you for your skill and contributions to the party.

One example was in FoW, before we left we had a fast cast Me/Mo in the party. Some idiot was bashing the Me/Mo saying "oh what the hell are you gonna do in FoW? Drop her and get an ele." But the leader kept the mesmer. When we got in the battle, the Mesmer dropped all the FoW caster monks so fast we just stood there wondering what the hell she was using. At the cave, the party got raped by armored spiders but she brought us all back with a sick fast cast rez chain and saved us all. At the end of FoW every single one of us died and the mes had a +2 morale boost. Yeah, that guy that was talking trash because she wasn't using a cookie cutter setup for the party was looking really dumb.

If you want to get good, its not just about mastering a certain set of cookie cutter skills. Skill in this game is your evolution as a player and using unlikely skills you like most at the perfect moments to save the party. It's all about knowing the dynamics of your skills. Knowing that you can cast Mend Ailment through a shadow shroud on yourself to stay alive, or knowing that you can buffer a RoF into a CoP to get that life transfer and siphon off you. These are all things you teach yourself instinctively through experience with your skills. I can tell you that you can buffer an RoF and CoP 2 hexes off you at 30 health with -10 degen to save yourself... But are you going to be able to do it in time? Have you gone through so much skill customization and experiences that you instinctively hit the RoF and CoP right as 2 hexes are stacked on you? Or skip the RoF if its a high powered backfire? Do you know when to cast through it with RoF to save another player?

Cookie Cutter Builds are training wheels. Play more and get better. Some experience in this game isnt measured by a little green number that pops up over you head.

As Tryll pointed out, there is already another thread on this exact same subject. They are both flamewars waiting to happen.

Closed.