Thoughts about faster lvling for factions, actual use of exp, n areas for exp players

Why is anet making it so easy for everyone to level up, if people have a problem with having to spend time leveling up they were obviously rushing through the game. For me leveling my character gave satisfaction knowing that I worked my way up to get stronger. Why does everyone need to get to lv 20 so fast?



I dont mind the current lv cap seing that any increasement would bring unfairness to the game.
But it makes me wonder is there any point to leveling up if you can do so, so fast. In Pvp it is understandable.

Basically all that has occured now is that people may be lv 20 but they dont have the exp to back it up, meaning obtaining exp after lv 20 is a useless cause.

Maybe a TITLE for exp, and a actual use for that title such as going to a unreachable outpost would help to Issolate players that have worked hard to be given a chance not to have to socailise with inexperienced 10 year olds.

Basically guild wars is bending down and letting the casual gamers be able to access just as much as people that have worked for it. Is there actually a point to being a exp player in pve anymore?

It seems everything is handfend to players this is proven by skills being obtained easier and the idea of being able to level faster.

Maybe exp could be another way to unlock skills, because it does not really play much of a role in guild wars anymore, even getting skills could be made harder not easier seing its said to play the role of character develpmont. Anet when Capping you give us 5000 exp for capping a elite skill. We are already on lv 20 whats the point?

Re edit.
Make exp usefull, and in this I mean change the value given depending on the difficulty of the situation. Farming does not have to give large amounts of exp if the monsters drop less experiece.
its not a bad idea making exp a title, anet just have to think about new methods or ways to gain experience. To be basic you cant be skillfull without experience, and in pve the exp isnt given based off skill THATS MY point.

Make exp points have a usefull beneficial role other then being used to aquire skill points and make the way you gain exp more skill related, alot of people perceieve level 20 as if they are proe.

Uh yeah, 55-monks farming trolls all day long should get a special reward.

But eventually all players will reach that amound of XP, and your new elitest area has just been nubbed.

I think XP gathering is far too easy in Factions, I really hope the Devs of Ch3 or 4 read this, as I think alot of people are. The satisfaction for hitting level 20 is gone, when you can get to 18 on the starter island without trying.

And atleast with Prophecies you can expect people to have a vague idea what they are meant to do when they hit level 20 with their character. The number of new players to the game that can easily get scammed as they simply dont understand what they must do must bhe quite high, that and theres no real mid-level range for Assassins and Rits to learn how they are supposed to work.

Yes I know as "non-core" classes they are supposed to be for advanced player abilities, but because theres so many idiotic ones running around spoiling the gamer for people, not out of their own stupidity, but simply because they never got the oppertunity to learn to use the class properly.

.. xp make skill points.. skill points means you can buy skills... brought skills are unlocked for pvp

yea leveling up is old fashioned now, I really cant stand the thought of playing any other game where you have to level up...

well, I might make the exception with NwN2 .. but mmo leveling, nah.. boring.

exp points dont mean skill.

A farmer will have more exp than a normal player, maybe even a hardcore one.

But xp does mean skill points.. which is why only a farming character will have all skills in the game on them. No-one said that skill points = skill

yes a title for experience, lets call it the '55iron monk farming' title? perhaps have a little tractor icon next to 'experience' title, too?

because MOST expansion content is for level 20s
(unlike Prophecies)

You obviously don't play PvP, but most GvG characters are PvE characters. They use PvE characters to PvP because of the numerous benefits provided by doing it.

Guild Wars was marketed to the "casual gamer."

I'll restrain myself.

PvP players don't want to spend hours upon hours unlocking skills and making their PvE characters PvP ready. The current system of skill unlock/gain is overwhelmingly better, compared to that of Prophecies.

Guild Wars was designed so people can reach a level playing field fast. They wanted the new people to factions to be able to try out varied new builds.

Also, considering how few people actually played through Prophecies mission for mission, this isn't a surprise. Most, even newbies to the game, got ran to sanctum and into the desert, where they 1. Plvled to 20 or 2. Finished the ascension missions and beat the doppel for lvl 20.

So they just took out the middle man.

i think it was inevitable to be honest.. i miss the prophecies way, but it just wouldnt work in Factions

u can take your elietest attitude back to WoW or EQ or whatever u play that dont have any 10 year old's playing


why is it people buy a game, play it, then whine and bitch about changeing things

make your own game, market it, support it, CS it, -THEN- u can say what should and shouldnt be around in "your" ideal world of gameing

Prophecies = RPG Style PvE + some PvP
Factions = PvP + some PvE

Factions leans more towards the PvP'er then does Prophecies since an ongoing war between guilds who take one side or the other, hench the way it has it's leveling up make more then perfect sence and makes that style of game play fun... now this is not to say everyone who likes the original will like this expansion it just means this is how it's played..
Now since they focused so much on PvP this time around I am hoping they focus more on PvE for the next chapter so as not piss off the other 50% of the gamers who like to spend time to see their characters develop and really get into the story.

*uses psychic powers*

I see... I see a self-proclaimed structural engineer playing in a sand pit... I see... a dark figure, he's standing behind him... I see... oh god, he's got a knife! Run self-proclaimed structural engineer, run!

But Prophesies is widely recognized as better for PvE players.

I've played both campaigns through. Prophesies was far more interesting, deep, and entertaining. For me, Factions was a nasty grind trying to bulldoze through the interminable quests in the city and wandering to and fro in seach of faction.

Had Factions been the first game released, we would have bought one copy that would now be gathering dust.

We started with Prophesies, though, and eventually put everyone in the family into the game. So we bought five copies of Prophesies and three of Factions (five people in the family, two of whom have no interest in Factions).

I have no objection to Factions being PvP focused. I would, however, like to see Chapter 3 be something more interesting to PvE folk.

Valid point mentioned... level up is so yesterday, so WoW, so out-dated. Let go of your Diablian mindset, your Warcraft mentality that demands countless hours of endless grind to reach that level 99/ level 60 or whatever. Enjoy the quick run to twenty... THEN sit down and figure out how to do it right.

The levelling phase in Factions only really helped with getting the feel of the assassin and the ritualist... so there needs to be some degree to let you get an understanding on a basic level of character classes. But then you hit 20 and it's trial by fire. Time to crap or get off the hopper. Step up to the plate! [Insert cliche here]

I can't fathom diving into a game requiring level grind again. I've so been able to adjust my mindset I can't imagine being capable of regressing to such a barbaric style of gameplay again.

How about catagorizing all the skills into 'levels' in their respective field (such as Expertise, Ranger or Water, Elementalist) based on degree of difficulty to obtain or use, then have the cost of the skill match the level it's within in skill points? Maybe to capture an Elite you not only have to have the Capture Signet, but also 5 spare skill points? In other words, it may cost you one skill point for Flair, and 4 for Meteor Shower, and to capture Elemental Attunement you'd need another 5 skill points. Would this in some way redeem your need for excessive 'levelling' that most players of Guild Wars have come to accept as absolutely unneccesary?

Slowing the process of being able to achieve even the simplest of goals in Guild Wars isn't going to increase your satisfaction of actually achieving it, trust me. We've seen way to many polar opposite arguments - not enough...way too much...too slow...too fast. Guild Wars relishes in the fact that the hardcore can mingle with the casual, and that the learning curve for using everything at your disposal (even early on) is actually quite small. Your pace, not mine. And vice versa. Chances are, you'll find just the right people to game with here, and learn at your own pace just how fun this world can actually be.

I hope that you're joking. Requiring excess skill points is the same thing as requiring levelling without the eye candy of a higher level number. I assume from your level-headed post that you are joking on that part...

Yes, joking As far as the first paragraph goes

the biggest argument against fast leveling is that it detracts from the amount of time that players (old *or* new) have to learn how to play their class properly [1].

as an observation: in general, from what i've seen on these forums, the ones that love the fast leveling are those who are either a) ADHD types who bought the game but don't have the patience to work through another prophecies-length campaign or b) PVPers who just want to get their PVE char thru the campaign and "Skip to the End" to go PVP with it. That's a generalization, yes, but i think as generalizations go it's not too "out there".

fast leveling doesn't affect PVP players much at all, but it does affect the PVE game greatly, as the quality of players in groups becomes deteriorated.

[1] this involves acquiring and trying out new skills, testing new builds and tweaking them, learning one's overall role as defined by the overall design of the class, and learning how one's overall role changes as modified by the various builds one uses.

eudas

in ch2, the reason is because 90% of the content they developed from the city (kaineng center) onward was developed for clvl20 characters. Bear in mind that they had to develop areas that were challenging for *all* players, and that there would not only be massive amounts of new characters leveling up from 1 to 20 in Cantha but also massive amounts of old Tyrian clvl20 characters coming over directly from Lion's Arch to Kaineng Center.

So all content from that point onward needs to be equal -- if you develop it to be appropriate for low level characters, then it's too easy for the high levels and will be romped through right away by high levels helping out low levels through the areas that were *supposed* to be challenging but now aren't. If you develop it to be for L20 chars, then now you have the challenge of getting the low level characters up to L20 quickly so that they don't get romped on mercilessly when they step off the island onto the mainland.

Guess which option they chose.

Various reasons -- I won't go into it, but suffice to say that while I don't necessarily agree with every reason to level quickly, that there are a few, and some of them are legitimate. Not everyone wants to play slowly through Baldur's Gate, solving every side quest, for 3 months.

I agree, and that point is fairly well established and agreed upon widely already. Let's move on.

It depends upon your goals. Skill Hunting is one reason to level up quickly -- you run out of skill points relatively quickly

That's an unfortunate side effect, and one that should be examined as regards Pacing for future chapters, but isn't one that is "fixable" in ch2. ch2 was designed to have a fast pace, and it does have one. if you don't like a fast pace, then that's unfortunate, but there's no way to change that fundamental part of ch2's design at this point in time. the only thing to do is submit feedback to anet about the pacing of ch2 and let them know that you would appreciate a slower pacing in future expansions.

absolutely incorrect. yes, it is useless in terms of hp gain and attr point gain. but, again, it is useful to those who need additional skill points.

Dumbest idea ever.
I leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out why (it should be obvious).

We already have something like this: it's called "instanced zones". Grab your henchies, go out in a zone, and play in blissful silence.

There's also the ability to turn Local/Trade channels off, which again, keeps you in blissful silence *even when surrounded by those annoying 10 year olds*.

As much as there ever was -- the joy of being good, and knowing it, and being able to impress other players with your skill. What do you want, a cookie?

Skills aren't being obtained easier. You still have to purchase them (ch2), or quest for them (ch1). The quests that give skill points are there in ch2 *because* of the lack of ch1-style skill quests in ch2.

It is, when you get exp, you get another skill point. You use the skill point + some money to purchase a skill from a skill trainer.

You're assuming that it did in the first place. GW was designed from the ground up to de-emphasize importance of xp, leveling, and grinding. In some ways it was successful.

Your primary complaint seems to be about *pacing*, not about xp per se. Pacing in ch1 was much slower, which meant things took longer, which kept your eye on the xp meter a bit longer because it took more play and time to get to level 2. that's all. in ch2, you level faster, so you really spend less total time looking at the xp bar, eagerly awaiting that "next level". That's Pacing. The pacing is faster in ch2 -- it has nothing to do per se with experience being useful or useless.

It's all about perception.

let's be frank with ourselves -- the end goal of the game for anet/ncsoft is to get people to move on to pvp in the end, not to play pve forever. they want to attract people with pve, and provide a good game for them to enjoy while they're there, but the end goal is to get people to move to pvp, because pvp has the highest chance of ensuring long term addiction to the game.

by way of example, compare how long half-life (the original one) sold simply because of Counterstrike. millions and millions of copies, *years* after the game itself came out. that's the goal.

capture 3 elites, and you've gained enough xp for another skill point, which lets you capture 1 more elite. skill capping elites basically feeds itself. which, coincidentally, there's a title for. imagine that!

basically, they made it so people don't have to grind (as much) to get the skill hunter title, even for those older characters who were low on skill points.

it is... to skill hunters. well, and for getting rid of DP. (Xp scrolls = poor man's candy canes...)

i think you're whining alot for nothing.

eudas

EDITED: You don't need to quote his entire post when it's really long like that.

I agree with you for the must of your ideas but i bought this game for rpg! there is people who don't care to pvp. So anet should not over look over look the rpg!


The core of rpg's is character develpmont

At the core of gw is rpg! lets not for get that.

You'll have more skill points then money..whats the point of more skill points lmao.

1) I have 3/693 skill points, and lots of cash. <3 Xp. Need more points (I should really start farming again..)

2) Retroactive xp on skill caps please, that's 450k xp I could have gotten if the change had been there then. 30 points.

Unfortunately, acquiring skill points was made a lot easier, and making money made a bit harder. This was kind of dumb, because now I know people with 100+ skill points, and not 100 plat. So, leveling up for skill points is also a bit...

...well, yeah, it's useless.

I don't think it's money that is harder to make, I think inflation is just killing the value of gold.

No, I make about 1k per skill point.. actually, more like 2-4k, but a minimum of 1k.. at lvl20. If I have more skill points than money (and I do) its because some of the money gets spend on luxury items such as 15k armor.

I like that eudas split the quotes up and addressed points individually so speak for yourself. And I think eudas summed it up very nicely!

The game was never really marketed as an RPG. I can't remember reading anywhere where the core of Guild Wars is RPG. And again your view doesn't necessarily mean that everyone's view is the same. I don't see role playing as character development in terms of having a better level than other people. My characters (and most of my guild mates) like to rp at different levels. We chronicle our adventures and regale them from time to time. To me role playing is about adventuring not about having a L33T status that makes my developed character cooler than others. I love RP centered games, but this game is centered on PvP match style.

@OP ~ I get the impression the OP wants recognition for achievements and is used to recieving that by having a higher level than the "casual gamer". There are titles in the game to provide a sense of achievement. So if you're really interested in RP then go RP and stop whining about not having something to separate yourself from the commoner.

I love the fact that there's a lvl 20 cap. I (am embarrassed to admit) i used to play RuneScape, where the max lvl was 121 i believe. There were always newer players, and higher level players, and the higher level players were always calling lower level players noobs, nevermind the fact it took a year of grind to gain a few levels. In Guild Wars, players prove themselves by skill, as the game advertises, rather than by showing that they have the most patience for grind.

Also, people seem to believe that if you are level 20 then you should be an expert player, and that the game makes it too easy to get to level 20, even for incompetent players.

As I have heard on some other thread a long time ago, the game really only begins when you're level 20 (especially in Prophecies). The most challenging and entertaining content only comes along around that point in a character's development. Also, once a player is lvl 20, he/she has the chance to be on equal footing with other players. Instead of concentrating on leveling up, the player now trains through making and improving skill builds, through armor and rune combos, and through higher level activites that prepare the player. Anet really did make the game about skill, rather than levels.

Your experience in Guild Wars is independent of the 'experience total' bar featured in the Hero window.

Lol I'll have to go re edit alot of what I first posted, first off Eudas you have made some good points, and the fact you made the effort to post when I had only half a clue of what I was talking about is respected.

The whole level up system was from retro rpgs and it got boring because it was the same formular which many types of games used over and over.

What Im trying to state is that guild wars claims itself to be a mmorpg and instead of focusing on leveling up, skills were ment to play a major role in your character develepmont. Alot of people have been complaining about it for a while, I Like pvp I like how it effects pve but I dont like how it dominates the pve of guild wars.

Alot of you guys have brought up the point that gaining exp ISNT skill related and I agree, the thing is it can be made more skill related then it already is. 55 hp MONK which is ment to be a support character can farm by itself in many areas of gw all it tells me is that it proves and shows that anet are not thinking about monster spawns in pve and certain characters taking full advanatge of it.

Simple solution change exp values, or fix or make other core proffesions more usefull in pve because it seems to me that not much effort is being put into making certain classes as usefull as the stupid wammor or elem or say monk in pve.

You guys are figuring that exp is made by constant mindless farming or questing in which some people enjoy others do not, this is more time consumption then actuall skill. The exp give out rate is unbalanced and is basically measured off the higher the level of monster, if they changed the exp to actually match the skill involved and actually gave proper exp values based of the challenge it could help, and would stop troll farming to gain exp like you mentioned before.

So your trying to tell me that the actual meaning to pve is just something to do whilst you go on your merry way capping your skills. Many unrewarding quest after quest that award you with exp that is used to unlock skills, if you havent noticed people have plenty of unspent skill points to buy skills.

There is not much character building in the pve side of it at all, just as u guys put it a reason to cap skills for pvp.

dreamhunk, we've had this argument before on other threads. let's not reproduce it here.

you bought GW for a "pure" rpg experience. the problem is, GW is not a "pure" RPG -- it is a CORPG, and that means a 50% PVE front-end to the game with a 50% PVP backend to the game.

People who are mad that it's not 100% "pure" RPG/PVE weren't paying attention when they bought the game.

eudas

the character building portion is all in what skills you select. if you want to develop your character then you need to acquire more skills. this involves purchasing skills, which in turn eventually means acquiring more exp. so exp isn't useless because it helps you "develop" your character... what's the problem here, again?...

eudas

Yeah I think that leveling your character, and getting used to the dynamic of the class combination is important. I don't think you get that understanding as quickly as you get to the level cap. For me a game is as much about the journey as it is about the destination. However I think a-net wants us all to be level 20 as quickly as possible. I dont know if this is because they want us to be pvping, or if it is just to balance everyone out. I miss the process of working to be level 20.

I know too many people who would say that Factions is entirely PvE focused. Looking at the actual content added, very little was directed toward PvP. :\

this is one i can honestly answer .

chapter 1 gives a much slower level up.

people who have chapter 1 have done the leveling and want level 20 content waiting for their chapter 1 characters to experience in chapter 2.

Anet cant put enough time into a truly long slow level up like chapter 1 at the same time giving all those level 20 people jumping from chapter 1 a full game as well..

chapter 3 will have as fast (or faster) leveling as they will be drawing on 2 chapters worth of level 20 players

It certainly appears that way on the surface... but then why is this PvEr having to force himself back to the PvE side of things? For not adding much PvP, what they did add is damned addictive.