ok i reall do know that programming AI can at times be difficult...
but seriousely what is with Healer Henchies going WAYYYYYY out of grouping to run into the middle of XX number of mobs to res dead party members... i mean seriousely when im at least 2x agro range away from a mob my damn healer hench should not be running off into a mob like it is a damn tank to ATTEMPT to res something...
and what is with Assassin Merchs acting similarly... the rest of the group is over here killing crap and hell the damn assassin is on the other side of the radar getting raped by a group of nagas...
on that note...
Rit Merchs... and any mercs for that matter when i turn toe and run and start blipping the radar for retreat wtf is so hard for the AI to frigan stop any action it is currently performing to retriet with the rest of the damn party...
sry for the language im using it to add drama and humor to my ranting...
the jist is this... NO merchs should be going OUTSIDE of agro range(what i consder group range as well) to attack heal res use the restroom pick their nose whatever
ALL merch should follow radar comands and agro comands CORRECTLY...
if im calling targets they need to frigan attack those targets... if im blipping a retreat/rally point on the radar the frigan merchs should be going there...
WTF... Healers and Assassins???
sinican
Killmur
I have these same damn problems with the henches myself. I do love how Panaku DOES NOT attack the same target as the other henches when I do the call target trick. Pisses me off to no end cause instead he half of the time attacks a different target. 
IIIPowerIII
I hate panaku... He's using viper defense or something like that, and he tele into other monster group and make big agro... he's worse than the mending wamo...
Hockster
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IIIPowerIII
... he's worse than the mending wamo...
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Doomlord_Slayermann
Well, what I would suggest is that ArenaNet give the henchies (and just to be fair, the enemies as well) a piece of AI scripting that assigns them places in the formation just like most guilds do in GvG.
For example, when you begin to walk forward, the melee-based henchmen should be next to you or possibly in front of you, followed by the offensive casters, followed by the healers/protectors. The henchmen could figure out when they were "out of formation" I.E. in the wrong spot and attempt to reform farther back/along on the path the PC has taken through the area.
Well, that would be possibly easy to work out but also possibly a pain in the ass. I suggest going with the NWN method of henchman setup, where you could tweak the henchies with simple commands like how far to follow at and what to do in combat. Now THAT would not be hard. Heck, you could even let the player modify to a limited extent the skills that the henchies take, because then I wouldn't have to see the stupid monk henchies ALWAYS trying to cast Restore Life on me in the middle of some gigantic battle, especially when I was in the lava/poision water/right next to the melee boss.
Here's a sample menu on that point:
You: (From a main menu activated by talking to a henchie in an outpost) I want to change how you handle party member deaths.
Henchman: Alright, what should I do if someone dies?
For example, when you begin to walk forward, the melee-based henchmen should be next to you or possibly in front of you, followed by the offensive casters, followed by the healers/protectors. The henchmen could figure out when they were "out of formation" I.E. in the wrong spot and attempt to reform farther back/along on the path the PC has taken through the area.
Well, that would be possibly easy to work out but also possibly a pain in the ass. I suggest going with the NWN method of henchman setup, where you could tweak the henchies with simple commands like how far to follow at and what to do in combat. Now THAT would not be hard. Heck, you could even let the player modify to a limited extent the skills that the henchies take, because then I wouldn't have to see the stupid monk henchies ALWAYS trying to cast Restore Life on me in the middle of some gigantic battle, especially when I was in the lava/poision water/right next to the melee boss.
Here's a sample menu on that point:
You: (From a main menu activated by talking to a henchie in an outpost) I want to change how you handle party member deaths.
Henchman: Alright, what should I do if someone dies?
- Attempt to resurrect the person immediately
- Only resurrect the healers, otherwise let the healers worry about it
- Only resurrect the party member when there is no danger present
SAQ
There are plenty of henchies are stupid threads, you could at least post in one of those.. prepare thread to be closed!
mega_jamie
The Healer Hench got fixed a few weeks back to more inteligently use rezing. So they no longer must be ontop of the ally, or stay within your agro ring to rez.
Unfortunatly Danika only learnt half of that for me yesterday as I ran form a group trying to regen. She turned tale and ran back in to rez my fighters.
Unfortunatly Danika only learnt half of that for me yesterday as I ran form a group trying to regen. She turned tale and ran back in to rez my fighters.
Xenrath
It's not just the healers and assassins. The other day, in an unfortunate ambush, the group I was in got wiped out except for my char and Talon the warrior henchie. I ran off to regen and pick one or two enemies off one at a time, and Talon for some reason decided to run 10 miles away!
Turns out he was trying to res someone but wasn't even getting round to casting/stopping it. He just ran back and forth a little bit far away from me, while the baddies kinda ran past him towards my direction.
Actually I think it might be AI glitch in general not just the henchies, because the Jade guys kinda ran past me too! Very strange...
I've seen that canthan healer run very far away to res someone too... right into an angry mob, getting herself killed in the process. GG.
Turns out he was trying to res someone but wasn't even getting round to casting/stopping it. He just ran back and forth a little bit far away from me, while the baddies kinda ran past him towards my direction.
Actually I think it might be AI glitch in general not just the henchies, because the Jade guys kinda ran past me too! Very strange...
I've seen that canthan healer run very far away to res someone too... right into an angry mob, getting herself killed in the process. GG.
sabretalon
I've always wanted them to allow you to set their AI!
So prior to running into battle you set you healers to heal and your melee to aggresive or defend me and your casters to offence/defence etc...
I would have liked it if you could choose a set of skills for each henchie before leaving the outposts. You can only use a certian set of skills that would be available to them at that level etc...
You know make them a valuable member of the team rather than a meat shield.
The collission detection is not that good, easiest example, click on an NPC somewhere on the map and in most occassions you head straight for them i.e. into the side of a wall or looking over a cliff top or even stood behind your own pet not moving!
So prior to running into battle you set you healers to heal and your melee to aggresive or defend me and your casters to offence/defence etc...
I would have liked it if you could choose a set of skills for each henchie before leaving the outposts. You can only use a certian set of skills that would be available to them at that level etc...
You know make them a valuable member of the team rather than a meat shield.
The collission detection is not that good, easiest example, click on an NPC somewhere on the map and in most occassions you head straight for them i.e. into the side of a wall or looking over a cliff top or even stood behind your own pet not moving!
Big_Iron
I've had similar problems with Nika, an Assassin hench. She was running in full steam to mobs I was careful to keep out of my aggro circle. I had avoided taking 'sin hechies previously because of problems like this, but I had thought with recent hechie AI updates the Assassin may have been improved as well. Unfortunately, it hadn't been. I don't understand why she'd go charging in like that. And I mean these guys would be well outside of aggro.
eternal pho
Do what I do, dont take assassin henchies!! =P
tommarrow
It would be nice if there was a do not attack until I say so button so you can sneak by some of the groups when you are in a wide open area. I would also like to keep calling targets while I am dead.
Me: "Ok we will just sit here tucked back into this alcove while we wait for that very large mob with two bosses to walk past us then we can move on."
Panaku: "Oh man they are gonna see us we gotta move!"
Me: "Just sit still we will be fine."
Panaku: "I can't. I gotta get out of here!!!"
Panaku runs in to the mob and dies in 2.5 seconds and now the mob is headed your way. *shakes head*
Me: "Ok we will just sit here tucked back into this alcove while we wait for that very large mob with two bosses to walk past us then we can move on."
Panaku: "Oh man they are gonna see us we gotta move!"
Me: "Just sit still we will be fine."
Panaku: "I can't. I gotta get out of here!!!"
Panaku runs in to the mob and dies in 2.5 seconds and now the mob is headed your way. *shakes head*
sinican
origionally i started this thread not really as to improve henchies but more or less point out OBVIOUS flaws that make the AI look extremely poor...
which pretty much is why i posted about the agro/group circle that henchies are continuousely running outside of to do stupid things like ressing someone by running through into a mob i mean seriousely that is just stupid... especially solo... or like the assasssins shadowstepping way away from the protection of the healer and of corse the healer runing right after the assassin attempting to heal him leaving Me and the rest of the more intelegent party left hanging with no healing...
2 things usually happen... the healer then dies and the party usually shortly after because of no healing... or the healer succeeds drawing the mob it ran into right back to your group...
the just is simple... the darn Henchies should not acknowledge anything outside of the agro cricle that includes dead party members and mobs alike...
this would solve a huge amount of problems...
and yes it would be nice to have more control of the henchies... such as all henchies haveing 6 set skills depending on its class and such allowing the player to choose the other 2 skills from the basic list (or hey ad another goldsink to the game for players to BUY henchie skills seperate from player skills) and from elites that you have capped if they corospond to the henchie class
being able to choose formations is a great idea as always
being able to set rally points that you can send the henchies to or to tell the henchies to stay put that way players can pull with henchies...
but again ultimately the obvious issues id like to see imporved
which pretty much is why i posted about the agro/group circle that henchies are continuousely running outside of to do stupid things like ressing someone by running through into a mob i mean seriousely that is just stupid... especially solo... or like the assasssins shadowstepping way away from the protection of the healer and of corse the healer runing right after the assassin attempting to heal him leaving Me and the rest of the more intelegent party left hanging with no healing...
2 things usually happen... the healer then dies and the party usually shortly after because of no healing... or the healer succeeds drawing the mob it ran into right back to your group...
the just is simple... the darn Henchies should not acknowledge anything outside of the agro cricle that includes dead party members and mobs alike...
this would solve a huge amount of problems...
and yes it would be nice to have more control of the henchies... such as all henchies haveing 6 set skills depending on its class and such allowing the player to choose the other 2 skills from the basic list (or hey ad another goldsink to the game for players to BUY henchie skills seperate from player skills) and from elites that you have capped if they corospond to the henchie class
being able to choose formations is a great idea as always
being able to set rally points that you can send the henchies to or to tell the henchies to stay put that way players can pull with henchies...
but again ultimately the obvious issues id like to see imporved
Cjlr
They're more sporadic than actually bad. Today, for example: Nika was kiting! I was impressed. What's more, Jamei was actually keeping everyone alive.
Zanaso Firelance
My biggest complaint with the henchies arent really the melee'rs, but more in fact the healer henchmen.
If you watch their skill bar, they never once use a 5 energy skill, except maybe Signet of Devotion, everything is 10 energy. Now, on a human monk this MAY be okay, but when watching Danika heal, she doesn't care how she uses the spells, she just spams Jamei's Gaze, Blessed Light, and Healing Breeze (rarely) like no tomorrow. Thats the biggest problem with the healer henchies, in my opinion. I'd be happy if they replaced Blessed Light with Healing Light, and Gave her Orison of Healing instead of Signet of Devotion, at least she'd be able to keep the party somewhat alive more than what they're doing at the moment. I know hench aren't supposed to replace the human players.. but come on.. these healers make Alesia in Tyria look pro >.>
(Little note here, when I talk about Danika, I mean all the entire healer hench, since they all basically use the exact skill set.)
On about the assassins, I've never taken Panaku, only Emi or Nika, as their Beguling Haze interrupt makes it worth it. They dont always target your called target because they're trying to get the interrupt off, if you watch carefully.
Of course, sometimes they just like attacking whatever they please, but I think they mean well most of the time.
If you watch their skill bar, they never once use a 5 energy skill, except maybe Signet of Devotion, everything is 10 energy. Now, on a human monk this MAY be okay, but when watching Danika heal, she doesn't care how she uses the spells, she just spams Jamei's Gaze, Blessed Light, and Healing Breeze (rarely) like no tomorrow. Thats the biggest problem with the healer henchies, in my opinion. I'd be happy if they replaced Blessed Light with Healing Light, and Gave her Orison of Healing instead of Signet of Devotion, at least she'd be able to keep the party somewhat alive more than what they're doing at the moment. I know hench aren't supposed to replace the human players.. but come on.. these healers make Alesia in Tyria look pro >.>
(Little note here, when I talk about Danika, I mean all the entire healer hench, since they all basically use the exact skill set.)
On about the assassins, I've never taken Panaku, only Emi or Nika, as their Beguling Haze interrupt makes it worth it. They dont always target your called target because they're trying to get the interrupt off, if you watch carefully.
Of course, sometimes they just like attacking whatever they please, but I think they mean well most of the time.
Mayh3m
Yea Healer are the main problem with henchies. SOMETIME they do a great a job but most of the time they just aggro mob and make you die insteed of healing you hehe.
uberpwnage
By the way, what's with healer henchies, when your party is dying off, only ressing when everyone else is dead and they are at 20% health?
LuckyGiant
I just want to add a little point that from ANets point of view, the AI must stay worse than the player skill level....imagine if no one grouped because the henchies were insanely good... yeah I'm talking about wind riders interupting greneths balance good 
I always use henchies to skill cap, they seem fine. Though I wish I was priority rezz when you're about to be party wiped, rather than the necro henchy or something :/
I always use henchies to skill cap, they seem fine. Though I wish I was priority rezz when you're about to be party wiped, rather than the necro henchy or something :/
Rieselle
Theres a knack to using henchies effectively, you cant play with them like you play with a human team.
Some simple things beginners may not know about:
- Call every target you attack. Obsessive-Compulsively. Henchies focus fire really well and you can take down most targets fairly easily.
- When fighting mixed groups like most groups in GW:F - once you engage and their warriors run past and start attacking your backline, it's usually better to call the warriors as a target, and make your entire team retreat a little. Finish off the warriors (a henchie team can usually kill a warrior even with an enemy rit or monk) and then take out the casters. Dont do what you would do in RA, and try to attack the monk at the back.
- Dont be afraid to retreat if you aggro a second group or whatever. Do it early. Run away (click the ground or use autorun) and then spam ctrl-click on your healthbar in the party window ("I'm Targeting myself!") henchies seem to follow you better when you do that a lot.
- You might be able to encourage them to rez by spam ctrl-clicking on a dead persons bar in the party window ("XXXX is dead!"). I dont know of any way to DISCOURAGE them from rezzing when you dont want them to, though.
- Avoid the assassin henchie. I like warrior, monks, earth ele, mesmer, spirit, archer henchies in that order.
Henchies can be really useful. My Ele went from lvl 12 to 20 doing Kaineng city quests, hiding behind 7 henchies. It went really smoothly and we hardly died at all. I barely did a thing, just tossed in a fireball every now and then :P
Some simple things beginners may not know about:
- Call every target you attack. Obsessive-Compulsively. Henchies focus fire really well and you can take down most targets fairly easily.
- When fighting mixed groups like most groups in GW:F - once you engage and their warriors run past and start attacking your backline, it's usually better to call the warriors as a target, and make your entire team retreat a little. Finish off the warriors (a henchie team can usually kill a warrior even with an enemy rit or monk) and then take out the casters. Dont do what you would do in RA, and try to attack the monk at the back.
- Dont be afraid to retreat if you aggro a second group or whatever. Do it early. Run away (click the ground or use autorun) and then spam ctrl-click on your healthbar in the party window ("I'm Targeting myself!") henchies seem to follow you better when you do that a lot.
- You might be able to encourage them to rez by spam ctrl-clicking on a dead persons bar in the party window ("XXXX is dead!"). I dont know of any way to DISCOURAGE them from rezzing when you dont want them to, though.
- Avoid the assassin henchie. I like warrior, monks, earth ele, mesmer, spirit, archer henchies in that order.
Henchies can be really useful. My Ele went from lvl 12 to 20 doing Kaineng city quests, hiding behind 7 henchies. It went really smoothly and we hardly died at all. I barely did a thing, just tossed in a fireball every now and then :P
Hidden in the Mist
If you're a warrior, don't take a melee henchie.
Kex Doomlich
Well, I think henches are made like that on purpose...to have a realistic behavior...like bunch of retarded players. 
Silent Kitty
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kex Doomlich
Well, I think henches are made like that on purpose...to have a realistic behavior...like bunch of retarded players.
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Henchies are deliberately made that way to make the average noob look good. If Anet made them better nobody would team up with human players anymore.
Poison Ivy
This specific hench build carried me through all the quests in the Luxon areas
You / Me (Have a Flatbow, ideal for luring)
Ranger Henchies (Take Aurora depending on the situation, she uses FWinds in some unsuitable times).
Monks (The protector and healer)
Elementalist Henchies (Fill the remaining slots with them)
The secret to this build is lure, lure and lure....oh, did I mention lure?
You / Me (Have a Flatbow, ideal for luring)
Ranger Henchies (Take Aurora depending on the situation, she uses FWinds in some unsuitable times).
Monks (The protector and healer)
Elementalist Henchies (Fill the remaining slots with them)
The secret to this build is lure, lure and lure....oh, did I mention lure?
obastable
I haven't had any problems with the henchies in Factions, other than the standard complaints about the Monk henchies superiority complex and their innate lack of self preservation.
When using my Monk I run a full heal build, and take the following henchies depending on territory:
Kaineng - Talon, Zho, Su, Kai Ying, Vhang, Lo Sha, Tai
Luxon - Eli, Aurora, Kai, Argo, Hala, Daemon, Gita
Kurzick - Lukas, Eve, Aidan, Butus, Sheena, Erys, Karl
Finished the entire game with them.
If you're using a melee type, the drop the fighter henc and pop in another defensive type (monk when available, Rit when not).
As someone else pointed out, obsessively call your targets. When playing a non-melee type it also helps to stop outside of your targets aggro range & THEN call the target. Your henchies will go forward and attack (so long as you're close enough) and take aggro, which should leave you fairly safe to look and move as needed to manage your party & continue to call targets.
Even with the dumb Monk AI it does work (extremely well in most cases), it just takes some practice to get used to.
When using my Monk I run a full heal build, and take the following henchies depending on territory:
Kaineng - Talon, Zho, Su, Kai Ying, Vhang, Lo Sha, Tai
Luxon - Eli, Aurora, Kai, Argo, Hala, Daemon, Gita
Kurzick - Lukas, Eve, Aidan, Butus, Sheena, Erys, Karl
Finished the entire game with them.
If you're using a melee type, the drop the fighter henc and pop in another defensive type (monk when available, Rit when not).
As someone else pointed out, obsessively call your targets. When playing a non-melee type it also helps to stop outside of your targets aggro range & THEN call the target. Your henchies will go forward and attack (so long as you're close enough) and take aggro, which should leave you fairly safe to look and move as needed to manage your party & continue to call targets.
Even with the dumb Monk AI it does work (extremely well in most cases), it just takes some practice to get used to.
kimahri
I wonder one thing though, sometimes when you pull with henches they back away with ya, but sometimes they start attacking, therefore dooming the party. Is there some logic behind this that I've missed?
quickmonty
Quote:
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Originally Posted by kimahri
I wonder one thing though, sometimes when you pull with henches they back away with ya, but sometimes they start attacking, therefore dooming the party. Is there some logic behind this that I've missed?
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As far as henchie AI goes, they are still smarter than a lot of real people that I encounter in pugs.
Doomlord_Slayermann
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LuckyGiant
I just want to add a little point that from ANets point of view, the AI must stay worse than the player skill level....imagine if no one grouped because the henchies were insanely good... yeah I'm talking about wind riders interupting greneths balance good
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obastable
Quote:
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Originally Posted by kimahri
I wonder one thing though, sometimes when you pull with henches they back away with ya, but sometimes they start attacking, therefore dooming the party. Is there some logic behind this that I've missed?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by quickmonty
I find that they back away with you unless they are attacked. Be quick, just touch red dot with your aggro bubble and move back fast. It works for me mostly all of the time.
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I generally run back a bit and circle around to get the henchies behind me when I want to pull something. Unless the henchies aggro circle enters the mobs aggro range the henchie won't attack until you do (or tell them to).
Spirit Of Azrael
I'm looking forward to a Mo/Me Sister Pwnage [Echo Mending Henchman], or Sir Awesomeness [Frenzy Healsig Henchman]
Henchies are ok, just avoid the 'sin henches unless it's Boreas Seabed (Panaku/Emi use Beguiling Haze)
Henchies are ok, just avoid the 'sin henches unless it's Boreas Seabed (Panaku/Emi use Beguiling Haze)
draxynnic
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann
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Res-sigging a fallen party member mid-battle can be a godsend, but it's rather frustrating watching the warrior or ranger jumping in and wasting a sig when the hard res is halfway through being cast...
KurtTheBehemoth
The problem with current henchies will be fixed with the new flag system coming out with Nightfall. So, suck it up for a few more days. lol
-Thread ended
-Thread ended
draxynnic
Quote:
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Originally Posted by KurtTheBehemoth
The problem with current henchies will be fixed with the new flag system coming out with Nightfall. So, suck it up for a few more days. lol
-Thread ended |
I haven't seen anything so far, however, that will help in making your henchmen use res sigs effectively...
Voltar
the hench are going to stand around you. agro looks for the lowest health / lowest armor targets and these are the casters.
if you're melee, the healers are going to stand next to you and without the fort mods and vigor runes, they are going to be the lowest health and lowest armor targets.
if you're melee, you should expect that you're going to make the healer hench tank (you should be ashamed of yourself, tsk tsk). if you're melee, you should play ranged or with players.
the problems i have with hench can all be traced back to a mistake i made using their ai. what you should do is observe how the ai works and use it that way. it's not going to change for you (until friday at least ).
as for sins, i haven't really figured out a reasonable way to play them in pve. they seem to be more pvp-oriented (from the little experience i have with them). they're just not survivable hench but i always bring panaku. that daze is awesome...even if it means that he dies all the time.
if you're melee, the healers are going to stand next to you and without the fort mods and vigor runes, they are going to be the lowest health and lowest armor targets.
if you're melee, you should expect that you're going to make the healer hench tank (you should be ashamed of yourself, tsk tsk). if you're melee, you should play ranged or with players.
the problems i have with hench can all be traced back to a mistake i made using their ai. what you should do is observe how the ai works and use it that way. it's not going to change for you (until friday at least
).as for sins, i haven't really figured out a reasonable way to play them in pve. they seem to be more pvp-oriented (from the little experience i have with them). they're just not survivable hench but i always bring panaku. that daze is awesome...even if it means that he dies all the time.
explodemyheart
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zanaso Firelance
I'd be happy if they replaced Blessed Light with Healing Light, and Gave her Orison of Healing instead of Signet of Devotion, at least she'd be able to keep the party somewhat alive more than what they're doing at the moment.
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Voltar
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann
If this was their purpose, I think by now they would have made henchman ragequit when they die for say, the fourth time.
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Alesia [Healer Henchman]: I'm Dead!
Alesia [Healer Henchman]: I'm Dead!
Alesia [Healer Henchman]: I'm Dead!
Alesia [Healer Henchman]: I'm Dead!
Alesia [Healer Henchman]: I'm Dead!
Alesia [Healer Henchman]: I'm Dead!
Alesia [Healer Henchman]: Learn to tank, nub.
Alesia [Healer Henchman] has left the game.
sry. the scene was funnier in my head.
cataphract
What I *LOVE* about the henchies is their ability to get bodyblocked. If you call a target, say Dredge Gardener, warrior henchies rush in, meet face to face with Dredge warriors and assasins and get stuck. There's no way in hell they will ever attempt to go through them or simpliy walk around them. All they know is to run in a straight path toward the target. And when they do get bodyblocked, they don't even attack the mobs blocking them. This kind of behaviour has made me a nervous wreck sometimes. Q__Q
Petrus
it will be easier with heroes.. but i kinda le the old henches... except the ele...
but the hero ele will be like calling in the artillary... press ms whenever u want to... if they fix the henches and u have heroes, the gamw will be faaar to easy... if u play a mm or a war its to easy allready...
and when you use henches or other players for thzt matter, the one and only rez is rebirth!!! atleast if u play anything /monk... (any i tend to switch to /monk for anything except deep/urgoz/uw/fow...)
LightningHell
One time Lina and Aidan on Perdition Rock tanked - and killed - 7-8 Flesh Golems, 5~ish Drakes, 8-10~ish Dryders that their Henchie friends aggroed for them. They're not totally bad.
But I really hate it when Alesia/Mhenlo/Lina runs into a mob to Restore Life. I already dislike them ressing midbattle.
But I really hate it when Alesia/Mhenlo/Lina runs into a mob to Restore Life. I already dislike them ressing midbattle.