why does mending suck?

jummeth

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

London

Diary of a Madman [SiKK]

21 Jun 2006 at 07:38 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaconSoda

1st, not all wmmo's are noobs...2nd, I have heard no testimony towards prot. wmmos... In the situation desrcibed above, with 10 enemies doing 10 dmg/second, for roughly 30 seconds, my wammo would've taken absolutely 0 damage, and still have his 750 health. How one might ask? Simple, here is my build:

Strength: 10 (8+1)
Swordsmanship 12 (11+1)
Protection 10/11 (memory doesn't serve, I have been using Ripose tank recently)

Skills:
Sever Artery
Galrath Slash
Final Thrust/Silverwing Slash
Purge Conditions/Mend Ailment
Shielding Hands
Mark of Protection {E}
Vital Blessing
Res

Equiptment: Mailions Shield, Fortitude Sword

Now Shielding Hands and MoP have 10 second durations. I reduce my damage by 16 with malion's shield and shielding hands, I also reduce my damage by 46 on MoP. at 10 dmg/second, I would be invincable for roughly 30 seconds even with the 5second gap with 25 second shielding hands recharge. Even then, Vital blessing gives me a huge amount of health, and I can withstand a heavy beating in that time.
If anyone has any objections post them and i'll contest. What about the 20 seconds and 35 seconds when shielding and MoP is charging?

Degen doesnt activate either skills, which you have no defence against.
Defile/Desecrate enchants is also gonna sting, No IAS, no DeepWound, No speed buff.

Thanks, taxi! Please come again.

Yichi

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2005

Guild Hall, Vent, Guesting, PvE, or the occasional HA match...

Dark Alley [dR]

21 Jun 2006 at 07:45 - 42

Quote:

Originally Posted by vabus

i don't use mending or anything but i always see people bashin the skill and i still haven't figured out why so can someone explain it to me? Mending sucks for a few reason which have already been mentioned, but here goes anyway....

1) enchant removal owns mending
2) energy cost in relative to warriors base energy and regen
3) too many idiots think they are invincible with it and overaggro/rush in without thinking
4) think that its the only enchant they can run on a warrior and be effective
5) dont take the time to learn other skills or enchants, or their character in general to know that there are other forms of self healing besides mending that are much much much more beneficial

dgb

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Mo/Me

21 Jun 2006 at 08:58 - 43

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaconSoda

1st, not all wmmo's are noobs...2nd, I have heard no testimony towards prot. wmmos... In the situation desrcibed above, with 10 enemies doing 10 dmg/second, for roughly 30 seconds, my wammo would've taken absolutely 0 damage, and still have his 750 health. How one might ask? Simple, here is my build:

Strength: 10 (8+1)
Swordsmanship 12 (11+1)
Protection 10/11 (memory doesn't serve, I have been using Ripose tank recently)

Skills:
Sever Artery
Galrath Slash
Final Thrust/Silverwing Slash
Purge Conditions/Mend Ailment
Shielding Hands
Mark of Protection {E}
Vital Blessing
Res

Equiptment: Mailions Shield, Fortitude Sword

Now Shielding Hands and MoP have 10 second durations. I reduce my damage by 16 with malion's shield and shielding hands, I also reduce my damage by 46 on MoP. at 10 dmg/second, I would be invincable for roughly 30 seconds even with the 5second gap with 25 second shielding hands recharge. Even then, Vital blessing gives me a huge amount of health, and I can withstand a heavy beating in that time.
If anyone has any objections post them and i'll contest. How exactly do you intend to kill anything with that?

BaconSoda

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2006

*Somewhere Under The Rainbow*

Leo

Me/

21 Jun 2006 at 14:39 - 44

Yichi

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2005

Guild Hall, Vent, Guesting, PvE, or the occasional HA match...

Dark Alley [dR]

21 Jun 2006 at 14:49 - 45

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaconSoda

1st, not all wmmo's are noobs...2nd, I have heard no testimony towards prot. wmmos... In the situation desrcibed above, with 10 enemies doing 10 dmg/second, for roughly 30 seconds, my wammo would've taken absolutely 0 damage, and still have his 750 health. How one might ask? Simple, here is my build:

Strength: 10 (8+1)
Swordsmanship 12 (11+1)
Protection 10/11 (memory doesn't serve, I have been using Ripose tank recently)

Skills:
Sever Artery
Galrath Slash
Final Thrust/Silverwing Slash
Purge Conditions/Mend Ailment
Shielding Hands
Mark of Protection {E}
Vital Blessing
Res

Equiptment: Mailions Shield, Fortitude Sword

Now Shielding Hands and MoP have 10 second durations. I reduce my damage by 16 with malion's shield and shielding hands, I also reduce my damage by 46 on MoP. at 10 dmg/second, I would be invincable for roughly 30 seconds even with the 5second gap with 25 second shielding hands recharge. Even then, Vital blessing gives me a huge amount of health, and I can withstand a heavy beating in that time.
If anyone has any objections post them and i'll contest. Honestly, PLEASE never run this build again unless you change your attributes. Youre using a stregnth build with a tactics based shield = 16 less armor. try again

XvArchonvX

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

21 Jun 2006 at 14:58 - 46

"why does mending suck"

wow, if I didn't know better I'd say you were trying to start a flame war.

Personally, I think it's a pretty good skill for W/Mo. Allows them to heal while moving and take damage in fights. This of course is a skill really only suitable for a warrior using adrenal skills and/or Warrior's Endurance.

dgb

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Mo/Me

21 Jun 2006 at 15:06 - 47

It's horrible. Stupidly low energy efficiency, a waste of attribute points and stops you using useful secondaries. Aside from specific times when you can't stop, it's horrible.

3 pips of regen are never going to save you.

BaconSoda, you keep running tank builds if you want. They are inane and superfluous, there are far better uses for a warrior, but it's not a problem for me.

jummeth

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

London

Diary of a Madman [SiKK]

21 Jun 2006 at 16:47 - 48

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaconSoda

1st, I do not intend to kill much with that, as I am a PvE tank, it's not exactly my job to deal a nuker's damage. 2nd, I stated that I was in the above situation, with 10 enemies dealing 10 damage/second, for roughly 30 seconds also I would be invulnerable, I also stated. Again, I stated that in the gap I have 750 Health (straight 750) with which I entrust to my monks. Towards degen, I use purge conditions/mend ailment, any hexes I have no defense against, although, the AI are dumb enough to try and staff me to death with MoP on... Never did I state this was a solo-ing build, but it seems that the stereotype of every class takes priority over the purpose... 10 enemies doing 10 dmg, an ele can be the tank in that situation.

You must actually compare builds in high pressure situations like PvP or even elite missions. Else its pointless, sure, my monk can tank 20 char with nothing more than boon + orison but .... that would be a pointless comparison since its a low pressure situation.

Your MoP will be drained/shatter very quickly, if not, they might even just spike through it. Armour ignoring damage which typically owns warriors will still own you.

And I'll say it again, stop tanking, its useless.

lacasner

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2006

21 Jun 2006 at 17:46 - 49

Skuld

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2005

Thousend Tigers Apund Ur Head [Ttgr]

21 Jun 2006 at 17:52 - 50

Yeh but so what, you could be using that energy for something useful. Healing Signet does more than enough to "counter degen"

Katari

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Upstate

Me/

21 Jun 2006 at 20:37 - 51

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaconSoda

1st, not all wmmo's are noobs...
<snip>
Strength: 10 (8+1)
Swordsmanship 12 (11+1)
Protection 10/11 (memory doesn't serve, I have been using Ripose tank recently)

Skills:
Sever Artery
Galrath Slash
Final Thrust/Silverwing Slash
Purge Conditions/Mend Ailment
Shielding Hands
Mark of Protection {E}
Vital Blessing
Res 8+1 Strength with no strength skills. gg.

jummeth

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

London

Diary of a Madman [SiKK]

21 Jun 2006 at 23:20 - 52

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

Mending doesnt suck at all, i use it, very helpful for the pesky degen, cause i
bring breeze as well, but its not a bad skill at all, quite good for condition negation in a way as well, the effects of bleeding do nothing while u have it
enchanted on you, so dont be so quick to judge it, think before you say something. If its pesky degen... why do you care?!

How long does it take bleeding to degen you to death.

I'd be more worried about getting a DW from gash than the degen from bleeding... get your priorities right!

Typically, if I met a warrior like yours in TA, I'd totally disregard you and attack a target that actually has a chance of killing me. If you were the only warrior, then I'd tell my team not to kill you and use you as my battery.

THEIvo

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2005

The Netherlands

looking for a place to settle..

22 Jun 2006 at 21:57 - 53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarah Arano

When using numbers to prove a point, you should try to compare them with an alternative skill or skills that do the job for the same amount of attribute points.

In the context of a warrior, you shouldn't be using more than 9 points if any in healing. If you were to make an active comparison with other heal skills you'll see that

At 8 healing :

Mending will give 6hp/sec, in a time span of 30 secs, Mending will give 180hp for 10 energy.

Vigorous Spirit will give 13hp/attack.

An axe/sword has a 1.33sec swing rate and attacks ~22 times in 30secs, resulting in 286hp for 5 energy. A hammer has a 1.75sec swing rate and attacks ~17 times in 30secs, resulting in 221hp for 5 energy.

Mending : 18hp/1energy
axe/sword : 57.2hp/1energy
hammer : 44.2hp/1energy

Live Vicariously will give 10hp/attack, which is 220hp for 10 energy with axe/swords and 170hp for 10 energy with hammers.

Mending : 18hp/1energy
axe/sword : 22hp/1energy
hammer : 17hp/1energy

Assassin(taking dagger base as 1.33sec)
Mending : 18hp/1energy
Vigorous Spirit : 57.2hp/1energy
Live Vicariously : 22hp/1energy

Ranger(shortbow)
Mending : 18hp/1energy
Vigorous Spirit : 39hp/1energy
Live Vicariously : 15hp/1energy

at 9 healing :

Mending will give 6hp/sec, Healing Breeze will give 14hp/sec.

In a time span of 12 secs, Mending will give 72hp for 4 energy, which is 18hp/1energy.

With a 20% ench mod, Healing Breeze will give 168hp for 10 energy, which is only 16.8hp/1energy.

Mending : 18hp/1energy
Healing Breeze : 16.8hp/1energy

With speed boosts and other factors aside:

Vigorous Spirit(anything) > Live Vicariously(axe/sword/dagger) > Mending > Healing Breeze(with ench mod) > Live Vicariously(hammer/bows)

Mending is better off on spell casters that have no better form of healing or on characters that are constantly on the move. Quoted for being a great post that basically explains all.

However, one thing is not explained. A character with health regeneration is registered by mobs as a hard to kill target, and is thus a lower priority. Having the warriors cast Mending on the monks makes the mobs a lot easier to face. My warrior frequently brings mending in a low-energy build, but he uses it on a squishy.

jummeth

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

London

Diary of a Madman [SiKK]

22 Jun 2006 at 23:48 - 54

So use succor, so it is actually useful. As for PvP, if you want to waste the attributes, use lifebond. Just stop using sucha weak useless skill.

Priest Of Sin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

Sitting upon Kerrigan's Throne.

Live For The Swarm [ZERG]

Me/N

23 Jun 2006 at 20:13 - 55

WHY MENDING SUCKS FOR WARRIORS IN PVP:

3 Pips of health regen isn't going to save you. Toss on HB when you need it, and you'll conserve energy.

God Apprentice

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Mo/N

23 Jun 2006 at 21:12 - 56

Quote:

Originally Posted by vabus

i don't use mending or anything but i always see people bashin the skill and i still haven't figured out why so can someone explain it to me? Premade Paladin template ftl

jummeth

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

London

Diary of a Madman [SiKK]

24 Jun 2006 at 01:31 - 57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Priest Of Sin

WHY MENDING SUCKS FOR WARRIORS IN PVP:

3 Pips of health regen isn't going to save you. Toss on HB when you need it, and you'll conserve energy. Please explain how using a crap 10e enchant spell will save you energy?

Heal Sig saves energy, HB is up there with mending.

God Apprentice

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Mo/N

24 Jun 2006 at 02:36 - 58

Quote:

Originally Posted by jummeth

Please explain how using a crap 10e enchant spell will save you energy?

Heal Sig saves energy, HB is up there with mending. Yeah but Mending is only a continuous +3 or +4 regen where HB would be more than that so you would be gaining a quicker regen for 10 seconds

DeathShadowX

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2005

24 Jun 2006 at 04:53 - 59

LightningHell

(????????????)???

Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

Guildless

Mo/

24 Jun 2006 at 06:21 - 60

Quote:

It's horrible. Stupidly low energy efficiency, a waste of attribute points and stops you using useful secondaries. Aside from specific times when you can't stop, it's horrible.

Actually, it's quite efficient for a non-Monk primary. Healing Breeze is too, but Mending is inexorably unflexible. It's an Enchantment, so it's prone to shatters.

Orison at level 12: 12 hp/e.
Healing Breeze at level 12: 14 hp/e.
Mending at level 8-12: 18 hp/e.

But as said above, if you're actually attacking someone, Vigorous Spirit and Live Vicariously would do a hell of a lot more. :P

I use it on my 55. (Everyone does...don't they?)

Quote:

don't know if this has been mentioned prior but...

8 healing
Mending (3 rgn) + Watchful spirit (2 rgn) = 5 always
^^

works decent in pvp actually with pure adrenial skills and a res sig...

contrary to popular belief, not everyone in pvp has a shatter spell. I take it you haven't met any half-decent RA player before?

EDIT: Also to add:

In PvE, if you're the "tank" (Well, being the primary focus of attack, anyways), you'd be a lot better off using Bonneti's Defense or Gladiator's Defense, I gather.

In PvP, why the hell are you using such an inflexible spell...

Dragannia

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

Me/N

24 Jun 2006 at 11:18 - 61

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaconSoda

1st, not all wmmo's are noobs...2nd, I have heard no testimony towards prot. wmmos... In the situation desrcibed above, with 10 enemies doing 10 dmg/second, for roughly 30 seconds, my wammo would've taken absolutely 0 damage, and still have his 750 health. How one might ask? Simple, here is my build:

Strength: 10 (8+1)
Swordsmanship 12 (11+1)
Protection 10/11 (memory doesn't serve, I have been using Ripose tank recently)

Skills:
Sever Artery
Galrath Slash
Final Thrust/Silverwing Slash
Purge Conditions/Mend Ailment
Shielding Hands
Mark of Protection {E}
Vital Blessing
Res

Equiptment: Defender (Stregnth) +45 hp (enchant) -2 damge (enchant), Fortitude Sword

Now Shielding Hands and MoP have 10 second durations. I reduce my damage by 16 with malion's shield and shielding hands, I also reduce my damage by 46 on MoP. at 10 dmg/second, I would be invincable for roughly 30 seconds even with the 5second gap with 25 second shielding hands recharge. Even then, Vital blessing gives me a huge amount of health, and I can withstand a heavy beating in that time.
If anyone has any objections post them and i'll contest.

The problem with that build is the problem people have with the premade Paladin: you're not doing enough damage, because you've split your attributes and sacrificed an Elite. If you're going to tank in PvE, bring a defensive stance, and raised armour skills, like Dolyak Signet. If you're going to maintain any enchantments as support, it best go on a Monk, and be the likes of Holy Wrath, Succor (which requires no attribute points) and things like Life Bond. At least then you're splitting your attributes into something which can actually keep your teammates alive, rather than something which gives them a negliable regen bonus. In PvP, as soon as someone sees you casting Mark, they simply switch targets.
Quote:

Originally Posted by lascasner Mending doesnt suck at all, i use it, very helpful for the pesky degen, cause i
bring breeze as well, but its not a bad skill at all, quite good for condition negation in a way as well, the effects of bleeding do nothing while u have it
enchanted on you, so dont be so quick to judge it, think before you say something. Do you think people here are judging it because they've never considered it?

For condition removals, on a Warrior, there is nothing better than Plague Touch. For hexes like Conjure Phantasm, ignore them. 10 Degen, at 20 health a second, isn't going to kill you. You can easily manage the degen using Healing Signet, as 200 damage over 10 seconds really isn't that much. If you're that afraid of hexes, bring Purge Signet, a skill which absolutely rocks on an adrenal Warrior. Degen caps at 10, which makes it weak unless spread throughout the entire enemy team. And that has nothing to do with the discussion here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathShadowX

don't know if this has been mentioned prior but...

8 healing
Mending (3 rgn) + Watchful spirit (2 rgn) = 5 always
^^

works decent in pvp actually with pure adrenial skills and a res sig...

contrary to popular belief, not everyone in pvp has a shatter spell. Then you're sacrificing 2 skills to give yourself 5 regen. 5 regen, while it seems like a lot, can be outhealed by Healing Signet. And not to mention putting points in Tactics gives you access to far better skills on a Warrior than Healing. But hey, go ahead. I love Mending Warriors who constantly give me an enchantment to Drain or Strip.

Jestah

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2006

Mo/Me

03 Jul 2006 at 08:30 - 62

Pfft dunno why this argument comes up so often. Anyone with sense can see mending is inefficient, ineffective and plain trash. Anyone who thinks otherwise - have fun with your PvE / RA.

btw lascasner thanks for the laugh. Don't be so quick to judge mending? Yeah I'm so sorry dude, I see now how awesome it is.

mylite

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2006

Minnesota

Huggles For Everybody [HuG]

Mo/Me

04 Jul 2006 at 08:42 - 63

rofl, anyone who uses mending in a "team" (meaning more than a farm/solo grp) is extremly noobish (sry for being an ass) you see, what you can do with your "godlike" mending i can do with heal sig... and if your using watchful AND mending you need to uninstall, you lose ALL energy regen, which limits your other 6 skills to adrenaline, which means your worthless vs anything that blinds/miss hexes/sv/soothing/soothing images...things that are becoming more and more common. Mending, i remember i used to use it 7 months ago...but i wasnt a leeroy jenkins like half mending "tanks". I did a test in ra the other day. 8/10 tanks recasted mending after i switched it, and then i interupted it. 3/10 tanks stood and waited for the energy after i interupted it. that is HIDEOUS numbers, and healing breeze is even more trash, 10 energy for 10 seconds of X regen, i can outdo this with just about anything, and if you are so worried about degen, use 5 energy on a remove hex/holy veil or purge conditions/mend ailment, or both together. I do belive its one of the best soloing skills, key word SOLO, if you plan on taking it into a mission, consider all this EXTREMLY convincing information in this thread, take the healing signet and watch yourself over mending and healing breeze, and you will not regret it (assuming you arent tanking 10 monsters and using healing signet, which is what ive seen a lot of latley, and ive seen someone use a healing signet on kanaxai because he said he was afraid of 2 axes....lol gg)

Phoenix Sebolta

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2006

Rising Army

W/Mo

04 Jul 2006 at 09:48 - 64

Quote:

Originally Posted by jummeth

In all honesty, you haven't given one true point about why mending is useful yet Not true. Earlier in the thread, people were saying how the health gain mending gives you is insignificant if youre fighting a large group of enemies dealing say 10 damage each every second or so, watever. I said that if you use mending alongside a skill which suppliments armor (such as dolyak signet) the damage you take is vastly reduced therefore mendings influence will be much more noticable, it can effectively maintain your hp nearly full.

I also made the point, that although healing signet is excellent for regaining your health, every 2 seconds, up to 159hp gain and no energy or adrenaline cost, it isnt practical in a PvE solo situation. All the focus is on you, every attack. If there are a bunch of enemies attacking you, even with a stance, the liklihood is your stance will be penatrated a couple of times in 2 seconds. The -40 armor i often find will mean you take as much damage as youre healed for. Bottom line is, i do not believe healing signet is practical in a PvE solo situation, where the enemies youre fighting are of many different classes and theyre all attacking you.

ilmau

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2005

Italy

sUk Clan

W/E

04 Jul 2006 at 10:28 - 65

Mending don't suck.

it's just not always usefull.
Depend on situation

Winstar

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

London

04 Jul 2006 at 15:50 - 66

"I also made the point, that although healing signet is excellent for regaining your health, every 2 seconds, up to 159hp gain and no energy or adrenaline cost, it isnt practical in a PvE solo situation. All the focus is on you, every attack. If there are a bunch of enemies attacking you, even with a stance, the liklihood is your stance will be penatrated a couple of times in 2 seconds. The -40 armor i often find will mean you take as much damage as youre healed for. Bottom line is, i do not believe healing signet is practical in a PvE solo situation, where the enemies youre fighting are of many different classes and theyre all attacking you."

That is false. Sig is great even in solo situations. When you run a dolyaks/wy tank and are casting it while they are up the drawback of sig is not only cancelled but you are still up on armour. Sig has been a sucessful part of many farming builds, most noteably UW solo and FOW solo.

As for mending, in PVE* it could have uses as long as the area you are doing isn't just going to lead to its being stripped constantly in which case it might be more effective to use non-enchantment heals as in a dolyak/wy tank. But even where it might be used, i find Live vicariously + vigorous spirit to be better. Of course, to reiterate an old point...NEVER USE IT IN PVP.

jummeth

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

London

Diary of a Madman [SiKK]

04 Jul 2006 at 17:56 - 67

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Sebolta

Not true. Earlier in the thread, people were saying how the health gain mending gives you is insignificant if youre fighting a large group of enemies dealing say 10 damage each every second or so, watever. I said that if you use mending alongside a skill which suppliments armor (such as dolyak signet) the damage you take is vastly reduced therefore mendings influence will be much more noticable, it can effectively maintain your hp nearly full.

I also made the point, that although healing signet is excellent for regaining your health, every 2 seconds, up to 159hp gain and no energy or adrenaline cost, it isnt practical in a PvE solo situation. All the focus is on you, every attack. If there are a bunch of enemies attacking you, even with a stance, the liklihood is your stance will be penatrated a couple of times in 2 seconds. The -40 armor i often find will mean you take as much damage as youre healed for. Bottom line is, i do not believe healing signet is practical in a PvE solo situation, where the enemies youre fighting are of many different classes and theyre all attacking you. Sorry, but a large group of monsters doing 10 damage a second won't personally scare me as a warrior. I'd just heal sig every 10 seconds... solved.

Even with your +3 in mending what happens when you get bleeding or poison on you? you have no healing =O
I guess you'd resort back to the spike heals of a stanced heal sig. Well, in that case why did you just waste a skill slot and the attributes on mending?

What about the monsters doing 20 damage per second? Thats a 11 damage per second deficit. Heal sig can out heal 10 degen, thats 30 damage per second, mending would be useless at 10 degen.

Next please.

FrogDevourer

on a GW break until C4

Join Date: Feb 2005

In your shadow

Servants of Fortuna

04 Jul 2006 at 18:08 - 68

Quote:

Originally Posted by vabus

i don't use mending or anything but i always see people bashin the skill and i still haven't figured out why so can someone explain it to me?

Because those who are asking this question don't seem to be able to grasp an important concept (select title only, type mending and voilà!). I won't reinvent the wheel and everything has been said already. In all standard PvE situations, *at best* your mending will be worse than a succor on a bad monk. The only notable use of mending is for running, solo-farming and especially on a 55hp build.

Reference threads:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...hlight=mending
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...hlight=mending

Reminder: here's why real heroes need mending:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=87316

Closed.