Problem with the Deep? or is it just my bad luck?

Maria The Princess

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

Aequitas Deis

22 Jun 2006 at 05:48 - 1

so i have tried the Deep (elite mission in Cavalon) for the first time. actually that try draged 10 other ones after itself...

the party number is 12. so i fugured, "ok fine, must be realy hard then"

but no! the hard part was finding a group. when i started LFG as Traper, nobody would invite me so i started a group of my own, after reading some feedback on that mision, ok 1 monk and 1 tank per room, trapers, BiP, nukers... sounds easy. the problem was when we were looking for 3 people, and people get impatient and quit the group because somebody spams " GLF (xxx) we are 11/12"

fine by me, i understand. when we FINALLY have a 12 people group with all the required classes, we decide on Doors division and are ready and head in. by the time we decide, someone gets bored and leaves. i think "ok whatever he must be some 10 year old kid" so we are back to GLF status.

finally we have 12 people, got organised, and are going in the mission. as soon as we are inside its like all the "organisation" we decided on has disapeared, and people are randomly spaming "ok im goin here, or maby door 2?"

by the time we finaly re-organise the kids who were probably not even reading the chat and just said "yes ok i will", the monks are frustrated with the exhastion, and when we actually get in the doors, we all have to wait a while for monks to regen. yes a while! but the wariors are impatient and just jump in, forget energy, traps, enchants.... who cares they are bored.

now, i know you will reply "get an experienced party" but i spent the whole day (realy) trying to find 1, and with every party it is the same story, if im the leader or not, same thing with diffrent people... it was very frustrating.

guildgroups... yah soounds good but even if we have alot of people online, we never have 12 ppl who want to go for elites, maby 3-4 max, and this is not enouth for an organised team.

so, my point is: why did anet decide to make 12 ppl parties?..... I think it was a very stupid idea. already 8 ppl ware sometimes hard to organise, but 12 ppl! yes a few listen and follow instructions, but so many of them just want to go in.... i dont mind the missions being hard, especialy if we end up 3 people per room anyways, whats the point if we still end up in small grous?

strategy? ok fine. but 12 ppl are VERY hard to organise and get to listen. it reminded me when i was working at a day camp for kids, how hard was it to get them to listen and follow.

so is it something wrong with me or is it something wrong with the idea of this mission? becasue seriously, i dont believe 99% of players there are idiots, but with having a 12 ppl party you risk to have TOO MANY OF THEM to make smart people either rage quit or stay but fail anyways

Grasping Darkness

Banned

Join Date: Nov 2005

22 Jun 2006 at 06:13 - 2

i did that mission a few times a while back and found its rather easy with a good team. for some reason after the slower players get there. not saying everyone that arrives later is incompetent,some people just dont play as much, but when all the fools get in it goes to crap so ive given up there. a guild group with good communication is the only team i would go with again on that mission

Sagius Truthbarron

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Animal Factory [ZoO]

22 Jun 2006 at 06:31 - 3

Never let other people decide what they are going to do. Tell them were to go for the start. Go to the international districts and oragnize people into groups of 3s according to where they are going, and in order of rooms.

Example:
(First door)
Warrior(1)
Nuker (2)
Monk(3)
(Second door; doesn't fight and waits to be rescued)
Ritualist(4)
Traper(5)
SS Necro(6)
(Third door)
Warrior(7)
Barrage Ranger(8)
Monk(9)
(Fourth door)
Warrior(10)
Nuker(11)
Monk(12)

If you organize the group before hand, and don't give people time to moan, you'll do alot better.

Also, check their builds. Make sure they aren't running Mending wamos with Heal Party.

Ask them what type of armor they are wearing, gear, ect. This will help to seperate the wheat from the... noobs.

ID_Roto

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2006

22 Jun 2006 at 07:06 - 4

So... started with the thought of being hard... then goes into the PuG groups being really .... yea... Probably a dumb answer to this problem but it's the only one I can give you : Guild Group. (Of course sometimes THEY don't do real well but still way better than the alternative).

ange1

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/

22 Jun 2006 at 10:54 - 5

sorry but barrage ranger is bad for deep

Farmer

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2005

22 Jun 2006 at 10:59 - 6

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria The Princess

so is it something wrong with me or is it something wrong with the idea of this mission? Hmm....................so many people beat the mission and Kanaxai's Axe nowaday is...........yeah, i think there's something wrong with you.

Aera

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

Galactic President Superstar Mc [awsm]

22 Jun 2006 at 11:05 - 7

USE VENTRILO<<<
With voicecommunication, things are a LOT more organised and people will feel that too, making them want to ragequit less. If you don't have it, download it ( www.ventrilo.com ) and take a public channel on GWVent ( server.gw-vent.com port 1337 ). By the way, trappers are definately needed in The Deep so you've just been unlucky there.

TRicciardi

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2006

Portugal

TEP

22 Jun 2006 at 11:10 - 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by ange1

sorry but barrage ranger is bad for deep yep.. specially because of all the onis.. when hited they teleport and make meat walls useless..
I prefer to take a bip..

to the OP, i allways think that getting a good party is the elite part of that mission :s.. but the mission itself can be pretty hard if the party has no idea what they are doing.. specially in scorpion and fear room..

CyberNigma

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

San Antonio, TX

W/R

22 Jun 2006 at 11:20 - 9

well to follow up with your point about not having enough people in your guild at one time to do the elites, it should be pointed out that the elites are designed for entry by the 'alliance' that holds the towns. you might want to think about forming an alliance with several other guilds so that you will more than likely have people wanting to do the elites with you. you all can also set aside specific alliance days/times for getting a group together to do the elites.

demon dantes

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

Iyanden Wraithguard

Mo/Me

22 Jun 2006 at 12:21 - 10

I have been in a couple groups that started out great and turned to ....well you know. The one peice of advice that i can give you is to learn what each room does,ask the people you invite what there builds are,and last but not least if the guy has a childish name don t invite him. It is a fair bit of time to waste on something for nothing as well find people you know or have met in other groups and just party with them.

Vahn Roi

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2006

[HiDE]

22 Jun 2006 at 14:21 - 11

This is why elite missions rarely work out as they should. I'm still waiting to do an all Guildie group for one of these elite missions.

Vincaro

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2006

W/N

22 Jun 2006 at 14:32 - 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grasping Darkness

i did that mission a few times a while back and found its rather easy with a good team. for some reason after the slower players get there. not saying everyone that arrives later is incompetent Like me... my problem is I'm working on 7 characters at once over 2 accounts... and those are just the new characters that haven't beaten either campain and I want to start 1 more when they add the option to buy a character slot... I have Cronic character creation disorder...

CHUIU

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

Team Legacy

22 Jun 2006 at 15:09 - 13

Try this instead:

(First door)
Warrior(1)
Nuker (2)
Monk(3)
(Second door; doesn't fight and waits to be rescued)
Monk(4)
Bip Necro(5)
Nuker(6)
(Third door)
Warrior(7)
Nuker(8)
Monk(9)
(Fourth door)
Warrior(10)
SS Necro(11)
Monk(12)

I've done about 20 runs with that exact setup and it works faster than all others. You can do a deep run in 1-1.5 hours easily with that. Trappers slow things down because of AOE (nukers shouldn't be using AOE other than meteor shower). Ritualist is nice but not needed for 90% of the run, you can bring one if you want though (in place of a nuker or monk).

Kalki

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Summoners of Forgotten Gods

W/Mo

22 Jun 2006 at 15:24 - 14

Nothing is wrong with your luck. Nothing is wrong with 12 person groups or the Deep. You need to identify higher quality PuG's though, and group leader's with their heads on straight. If people are leaving it's usually to join another group that's advertising they "just need <insert class> and we go", and if they don't respect the current leader's ability to form the group. You need to be loyal and patient once you find a good group and leader.

Last night I joined 2 PuG's for the Deep. The first group I was in took about 45 minutes to form the group, criticize each others builds, get people on Vent, etc.... We also had a failed attempt that took about 10 minutes. Once we got rolling it only took 2 hours to complete. The second group I joined was adverstised as "experienced players only", and I joined because it was getting late, and I was hoping for less forming time. This group still took 45 minutes of criticizing each others builds, dealing with leavers before we started, some people had to download Ventrilo, etc..., but only took 1 hour and 45 minutes to complete. I've also been in groups in the past that took around 5 hours. I was in one group that fought the final boss for 2 hours, and ultimately failed. When you get in bad groups just remember to yell at your computer WITHOUT holding down the transmit key.

Once you get more experience the time forming a group doesn't feel so long, cause you'll have confidence in your build, your leader, and what you need to do.

CHUIU

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

Team Legacy

22 Jun 2006 at 15:32 - 15

Yeah the good groups tend to take a while to setup because the leaders want to double check peoples skills to make sure they work down there while the noobs want to bring their own special build. And vent/ts is a must because its much easier to tell people what to do instead of having to type everything out and re-type everything out and cuss at the persont then re-re-re-re-re-type everything out. Besides that it makes the run more fun if you do get a good group.

Heres a tip for warriors: You're a wall, or should be a wall, 95% of the time. You should not attack unless you need to knock something down (Aspects or Kanaxai himself). And it would be a great idea to bring assassin secondary to use the skill Recall. So you can aggro stuff and recall back if you're in trouble or to aggro all the nightmares into a corner when the team has double-kd'ed Kanaxai at the end to keep aggro away.

Oh ... and don't attack the Oni. Just nuke them.

Maria The Princess

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

Aequitas Deis

23 Jun 2006 at 06:00 - 16

well, thnks for rplys

the problem is that there were too many players to find and to make sure they have a "normal" build. the problem also was that there is no way i can use TS or vent becuse my PC simply freeses and i need to force a restart (yes yes im getting a new pc soon), so it seems impossible to organise the people because even after saying "yes im goin to room 3" they seem to just start doinm random stuff.

i tried again, using the build mentioned above by Chuiu

First door)
Warrior(1)
Nuker (2)
Monk(3)
(Second door; doesn't fight and waits to be rescued)
Monk(4)
Bip Necro(5)
Nuker(6)
(Third door)
Warrior(7)
Nuker(8)
Monk(9)
(Fourth door)
Warrior(10)
SS Necro(11)
Monk(12)

and the ether the guys from second door started attaking, or somehow one door would end up with a monk and 2 nukers... and the warior is still standing around picking in his nose next to door 4.... i mean, ya we all decide on it, agree, and then as soon as timer runs out we all become a bunch of cocroaches that are just chaoticly run around..... and no i wasnt the leader, and at first we did seem pretty organised... but oh well!

Amity and Truth

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2006

W/N

23 Jun 2006 at 09:52 - 17

What really, really annoys me down there is that people have read up some of the guides and now think you can only do this mission with the stereotypical 0815 Groupbuild. The amount of abuse i've gotten for the simple try of getting a different than standard group working is enough to have given up on those missions completely.
I honestly can't stand boredom rangers, uhh sorry, trappers. Sure they're an asset to the team if they're combat trapping but what really annoys me are the trappers that go by the usual underworld trapping style (set up spirits and spam away, then lure). This is just utter boredom. Sure it gets the things done one day but i simply don't understand why 9 people who could deal with the enemies easily in the time have to wait for the trappers to just sit there and spam their traps. The Elitemissions are easy enough, damnit (with the exception of the scorpion aspect which i just hate, reaaaally hate)

But well, try to form a party without trappers. Go and try. And keep your screenshot button ready for there will be lots of swearing and namecalling.

Fates

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Kanuckistan

Mirror of Reason [SNOW]

23 Jun 2006 at 23:26 - 18

Honestly, I think most good groups have figured out that you really dont need trappers. What you really need is 3 competent warriors to block while nukers and ss do their business.

Sir Mad

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Moe's Pub

Pigs Can Fly [Pigs]

24 Jun 2006 at 12:27 - 19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fates Monk

Honestly, I think most good groups have figured out that you really dont need trappers. What you really need is 3 competent warriors to block while nukers and ss do their business. Actually it prolly sounds arrogant, sorry about that, but I've never partied with a competent trapper in the Deep so far. That's why I use (well used, I havent been there for a while) to go with my ranger rather than my monk for example. Trapping in the Deep (except in the 3 people rooms) implies to trap in melees. Even when someone advertise as an "experienced" trapper, most of the time he has experience in UW, but is clueless in the Deep. The 2 things atre completly different. No monster will interupt you in UW. You dont even need anything to keep you alive since you trap out of range, and when the mobs reach your place, they're dead.

In the Deep, you have to trap in the middle of packs of onis or seafood. You cant trap behind: the warriors will NEVER step back to lure the mobs towards your traps (and actually they wont pay attention to you at all and won't know where your traps are). So you have to be able to step in a melee and stay there to do your job without getting hit or you'll be interupted and useless. And you cant even take a defensive stance since serpents quickness is the key of trap spamming in a build where you CAN'T fill your whole skillbar with trapping skills, for after all you also have to stay alive. But a trapper who can do that will keep the whole pack blind and inflict a lot of conditions and damages to the mobs. Definitely valuable, and a great help for monks.

On a side-note, Martyr is also a must-have for a trapper there.

Back to the topic, yeah finding a group is a real pain. I used to be in the 2 alliances that have controlled Cavalon most of the time, and therefore it was even easier for me to get to the Deep than for the people waiting for a ferry. I went there a few times during the 2 first weeks, but I never get back after. Getting a team and dealing with impatient people, critics from people clueless about what's going on there, warriors who say "yeah I'm a KD warrior" but dont know what KD stands for, rage quitters, etc. I understand people want to give it a try, but for me this game has other challenges and the Deep is not worth the trouble of organizing that. I may go back there sometimes with guildies, but I guess no one will see me LFGing again, at least untill ANET opens it to everybody and it becomes a standard run.

ubermancer

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2005

******************* Refuge From Exile [RFE]

24 Jun 2006 at 12:49 - 20

I loath trappers. I see the usefulness of one (1) in Urgoz, and my dislike wouldnt prevent me from taking one, if no alternatives were available, but trapping in The Deep... eh. Not a big fan.

Fates

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Kanuckistan

Mirror of Reason [SNOW]

24 Jun 2006 at 15:01 - 21

lishi

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

25 Jun 2006 at 04:09 - 22

people should learn you dont need 20 layer of trap

4 traps -> warrior pull -> necro ss -> nuker nuke -> in 20 second everone is dead.

your trap are recharged for next pull , rise and repeat.

it help also if all your team member manage their energy.

a good nuker at end of battle should have 60/80 mana.(double attument ftw)

a monk should at end have full mana since at end most of mob are dead and you diont need heal like at start(energy management ftw)

Maria The Princess

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

Aequitas Deis

04 Jul 2006 at 03:35 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fates Monk

That's well written Mad, trappers thank you.

That being said, really, the only room a trapper is really usefull is room 2, where the warriors aren't able to block effectively. Other than that, if your puller is competent and your tanks block, the mobs will be dead from ss and ms before you get your traps off. Trapping the warrior's wall works, but really isn't necessary at all. i have to diagree wit that.

BTW, thx for all replyes, i finaly figured out EXACTLY what teams to join. I now normally go as a nuker or a trapper. i will not brag about myself, but when my guildie was trapping EVERY room, i almost had no job to do because mobs would die in 1 second and all 3 meteor showers would fall on empty spots. you just need to know WHAT are you doing when pulling mobs and IMO oath shot is a good elite for the place, so i ususally hesitate between that, spike trap and martyr

Fates

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Kanuckistan

Mirror of Reason [SNOW]

04 Jul 2006 at 04:18 - 24

Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying traps dont work, I'm saying they are slower than other means. The reason they are slower is you have to wait for the trapper to trap, instead of just grabbing groups, pulling them to the wall and ss/nuking them. I've done it with trappers lots, and most runs are more than 2 hours due to waiting for traps, I've done it in 1:20 with nukers and an ss.

Ira Blinks

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2006

04 Jul 2006 at 04:23 - 25

i've posted perfectly good nuker based build like a week ago... nobody ever replied to my thread... Yet thread next to mine with horrible thoughless smite build was up on the top for a while. I wonder why

CHUIU

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

Team Legacy

04 Jul 2006 at 04:43 - 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fates Monk

Honestly, I think most good groups have figured out that you really dont need trappers. What you really need is 3 competent warriors to block while nukers and ss do their business. Heh, I'm pretty sure you've been in one or two of my groups.

Michel Longshorts

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2006

04 Jul 2006 at 16:37 - 27

Good that you found a good character to play, but I would like to point something out that a lot of players miss.

The deep is not for every player. The deep was origionally designed to be played by VERY experienced players, IE the guild ruling Cantha. You CANNOT go in and expect everything to go ok in our current community because out of 12 people you usually have at least one inexperienced player. It only takes one person who doesnt know whats going on to screw it all up this usually involves luring a mob when they arnt supposed to.

Its called an ELITE mission for a reason.

Conclusion: You should always EXPECT a deep run to go wrong.

On the subject of leavers, when someone disconnects, you should not follow suit and leave. Please take note myself and fellow guild members have beaten Kannaxi with only 8 players.

I see trappers getting a lot of flame here. I find that trappers work very well alongside body blocks. The warriors set up a body block, ranger traps in front and lures. This acts as extra damage.
Also, a trapper with spike trap is very useful against Kannaxi.
And to the fact that traps take a long time to place... how about Serpents' Quickness and BIP?

One last point: Highly recommend TS/Vent. I have had a lot higher success rate when most of the group is on TS.

Rent

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2006

Darkness Within

Mo/Me

04 Jul 2006 at 16:48 - 28

My group consists of a trapper, two nukers, and two SS necros for the primary damage. Everything tends to die pretty fast--even in a pug, average time of 1:30-1:45.

I highly disagree with having a BiP necro--if both necs have BR it works just as well.

Michel Longshorts

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2006

04 Jul 2006 at 17:00 - 29

Quote:

My group consists of a trapper, two nukers, and two SS necros for the primary damage. I doubt you have two SS. You only need one because the hexes will overlap. You are probably mistaking the second necro which is actually a BIP.

Fates

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Kanuckistan

Mirror of Reason [SNOW]

04 Jul 2006 at 18:18 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel Longshorts

And to the fact that traps take a long time to place... how about Serpents' Quickness and BIP?

No matter how you buff it, that still takes longer than not waiting for traps to be set.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel Longshorts

I doubt you have two SS. You only need one because the hexes will overlap. You are probably mistaking the second necro which is actually a BIP. It's not very hard to look for a little pink triangle.

Rent

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2006

Darkness Within

Mo/Me

04 Jul 2006 at 18:57 - 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel Longshorts

I doubt you have two SS. You only need one because the hexes will overlap. You are probably mistaking the second necro which is actually a BIP. You doubt? I'm mistaken? Kindly note my post--I stated that my group consists of the above. I form every group with whom I enter The Deep (I play nothing but monk), and I am quite explicit with the people I pick up as to what sort of build I want them to be.

I used to run with a BiP and an SS, but after far, far too many times of the SS necro dropping/leaving I just decided to bring two SS necros, and it works perfectly. BiP is entirely extraneous.

Michel Longshorts

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2006

04 Jul 2006 at 19:46 - 32

Quote:

No matter how you buff it, that still takes longer than not waiting for traps to be set. Arguably, the wait is balanced out by the fact it takes less combat time to kill the mobs when trapping.
But that all depends on what you replace your trapper with.

I do agree though Rent, there is very little chance that you will be able to take out Kannaxi without an SS. Didnt realise you did it for leaver-security sake.

Im actually suprised you still critisise the BiP if you are mostly playing a monk because I find them great support (BiP+Well of Blood). Although I must agree when they dont bring self healing its a pain in the arse.

The main reason I try and restrict it to only 1 SS is because it is more noob-proof than having 2. Yes I can look for the little pink triangle, but some people panic and dont even bother, therefore wasting energy on SS. Id prefer to bring another Ele in place of it, but as pointed out earlier, 2 SSes is more leaver proof.

It mainly depends on how experienced your SSes are.

Fates

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Kanuckistan

Mirror of Reason [SNOW]

04 Jul 2006 at 21:39 - 33

I'll take 2 SS, both running with shivers, br, wob, inspired enchantment and reckless haste over one SS and one BIP any day. In a good group, once past the first couple rooms, the monks really aren't extended for energy in any rooms other than the scorpion room and the last room. 2 SS just makes it go quicker, if they know what they are doing.