Can't Touch This - Hunting Vampires
Themis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri
Anybody else have a unique perspective on using mesmer skills (or Mesmer plus another class) to own touchers?
Are you the forum moderator ? This thread's owner, perhaps ? Keep your posts concise, if you are really concerned about this thread's clarity : try to spend fewer lines justifying poor design. 
No flame intended, but if you could stop whining about "inappropriate criticism", i would appreciate. Thank you.
Robin_Anadri
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themis
Are you the forum moderator ? This thread's owner, perhaps ? Keep your posts concise, if you are really concerned about this thread's clarity : try to spend fewer lines justifying poor design. No flame intended, but if you could stop whining about "inappropriate criticism", i would appreciate. Thank you.
I started the thread, if that makes me the owner, then yes.Please note that clarity does not always or even often come from brevity. I'm not "justifying" anything, I was responding to your extremely subjective opinion concerning what qualifies as an "exploit." Also, detailing precisely why doubled skills != free echo required some detailed explanation.
As a side note, I never said "inappropriate criticism." When you place words in quotes like that, it means "you said this and I am referencing your words." If you were unaware of that literary convention, now you know, and knowing is half the battle.
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Back to the topic at hand. Last night I played a ranger in AB, running Punishing Shot, Dual Shot, Savage Shot, Pin Down, Apply Poison & Ignite Arrows (obviously the last two alternately.) I personally killed a slew of touch rangers all by myself, and quite a few more with the help of my team.
I'm curious if some variation of Me/R or R/Me might be the Ultimate Touch Ranger Killer Build. Any thoughts?
I'm thinking something along the lines of using Crippling Anguish/Imagined Burden/Etheral Burden/Shared Burden instead of Pin Down/Crippling Shot as the snare, as the hexes don't have the drawback of needing to "hit" (despite Crippling Shot's inability to be "blocked" or "evaded" it can still be dodged or obstructed) plus the snare can't be Plague Touched off. Also, adding one of the illusion degens to the poison for faster killing.
I believe the question of running Me/R or R/Me comes down to where it's most important to have a value over 12, but I worry that needing points in Wilderness Survival and Marksmanship *as well* as Illusion and Fast Casting may spread the points too thin. (I hope I'm right in remembering that Apply Poison requires a melee weapon or a bow? If not, forget Marksmanship and definately go Mesmer primary.)
So...
Mantra of Persistence
Crippling Anguish {e}
Conjure Phantasm
Apply Poison
Hunter's Shot (bleeding)
Debilitating Shot (edenial!)
Storm Chaser
Troll Unguent
Thoughts?
Themis
Thoughts ? Just one : No profession needs a "Touch Ranger Killer Build" (ultimate , or not), one needs simply to learn how to play.
The above phrase represents my (extremely subjective) definition of clarity.
, or not), one needs simply to learn how to play.The above phrase represents my (extremely subjective) definition of clarity.
Robin_Anadri
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themis
Thoughts ? Just one : No profession needs a "Touch Ranger Killer Build" (ultimate , or not), one needs simply to learn how to play.
The above phrase represents my (extremely subjective) definition of clarity. No one said a profession needed it. This thread is about the enjoyable pasttime of specifically Mesmers hunting touch rangers for fun and profit. As such, it is a place for the discussion of tactics thereof, and if you have nothing further to add to such, I suggest you refrain from posting in it.
As to clarity, "simply to learn how to play" is completely bereft of content, and does clearly convey anything except your baseless arrogance.
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Back to topic, thinking about the skills I suggested earlier, I'm going to ditch Mantra of Persistence. There's just no point, there aren't skill points to spare for Inspiration Magic. In its place, I think either Images of Remorse or another hex snare, i'm think Ethereal/Kitah's because of the net energy gain.
I still think Crippling Anguish is the best bet for the elite slot, although I'm open to suggestions. A ranger elite? We'd be limited to Marksmanship, Wilderness Survival and unlinked elites to be effective, and I'm not thinking of any that would be better than Crippling Anguish in this build.
So.. Touch ranger sighted.... Apply Poison, then Crippling Anguish.. kite a bit to make sure you're out of threat range, hit them with Hunter's Shot to apply both poison and bleeding, Debilitating Shot to bleed 10 energy away, hit Conjure Phantasm to add to the degen, throw on IoR if we've taken that... keep damaging them with bow attacks and keep the poison applied... Shouldn't take long.
I wish I could go try this right now, but still got three hours of work to go... Anybody else give it a go?
, or not), one needs simply to learn how to play.The above phrase represents my (extremely subjective) definition of clarity. No one said a profession needed it. This thread is about the enjoyable pasttime of specifically Mesmers hunting touch rangers for fun and profit. As such, it is a place for the discussion of tactics thereof, and if you have nothing further to add to such, I suggest you refrain from posting in it.
As to clarity, "simply to learn how to play" is completely bereft of content, and does clearly convey anything except your baseless arrogance.
-- - -- --- -- --- - - - - ---- - - - - ---
Back to topic, thinking about the skills I suggested earlier, I'm going to ditch Mantra of Persistence. There's just no point, there aren't skill points to spare for Inspiration Magic. In its place, I think either Images of Remorse or another hex snare, i'm think Ethereal/Kitah's because of the net energy gain.
I still think Crippling Anguish is the best bet for the elite slot, although I'm open to suggestions. A ranger elite? We'd be limited to Marksmanship, Wilderness Survival and unlinked elites to be effective, and I'm not thinking of any that would be better than Crippling Anguish in this build.
So.. Touch ranger sighted.... Apply Poison, then Crippling Anguish.. kite a bit to make sure you're out of threat range, hit them with Hunter's Shot to apply both poison and bleeding, Debilitating Shot to bleed 10 energy away, hit Conjure Phantasm to add to the degen, throw on IoR if we've taken that... keep damaging them with bow attacks and keep the poison applied... Shouldn't take long.
I wish I could go try this right now, but still got three hours of work to go... Anybody else give it a go?
Eaimirth Etaivella
At least everyone seems to be in agreement in that snares and energy denial are ways to kill the touch rangers...
I do not like the idea of apply poisen/hunter's shot as many touch rangers do not run plague touch and opt to use plague sending instead (I mean I would, touch while crippled is hard...spell range...easy)
Troll urgent is a not so useful skill for pvp; too long of a cast time does not justify non-dispellable weak health regeneration.
You lack a res signet.
Debilitating shot is a bad choice when there are better choices availible within the mesmer line for energy denial; I hate suggesting a 3 second skill after I just dismissed one but with fast casting it should become around 2 seconds with a 40% chance of 1 so I can lay my conceince to sleep with that. Energy tap would be useful in energy denial and energy management. Etherfeast will give you self healing in the steed of trolls, and give you some energy pick-pocketing as well. I would bring phantom pain; simply because it is "spiffy" and allows a 20-second kill if unaided via heals with the 10 degen 20second+dw policy.
Lastly this will take you to 3 attributes; which is great.
-edit-
*What happened to the build that this post was responding to? It was right there a few moments ago...*
-edit-
*nevermind; found it...weird gwguru glitch*
I do not like the idea of apply poisen/hunter's shot as many touch rangers do not run plague touch and opt to use plague sending instead (I mean I would, touch while crippled is hard...spell range...easy)
Troll urgent is a not so useful skill for pvp; too long of a cast time does not justify non-dispellable weak health regeneration.
You lack a res signet.
Debilitating shot is a bad choice when there are better choices availible within the mesmer line for energy denial; I hate suggesting a 3 second skill after I just dismissed one but with fast casting it should become around 2 seconds with a 40% chance of 1 so I can lay my conceince to sleep with that. Energy tap would be useful in energy denial and energy management. Etherfeast will give you self healing in the steed of trolls, and give you some energy pick-pocketing as well. I would bring phantom pain; simply because it is "spiffy" and allows a 20-second kill if unaided via heals with the 10 degen 20second+dw policy.
Lastly this will take you to 3 attributes; which is great.
-edit-
*What happened to the build that this post was responding to? It was right there a few moments ago...*
-edit-
*nevermind; found it...weird gwguru glitch*
LouAl
Just one thought, Robin. Wouldn't you be wasting a big chunk of degen with that? I mean it maxes out at 10 (right?) and you have 3 from Crip, 3 from bleeding, 4 from poison, and 5 from conjure...for a total of 10 (15 capped at 10) degen. It seems like you could do just fine without conjure.
I suppose if you were thinking to spread this all around it would work.
btw I like the good fun of working over a specific kind of build. I used to spend time in the RA just for the fun of cleaning out the prolific Wammos that tend to overpopulate the region.
I suppose if you were thinking to spread this all around it would work.
btw I like the good fun of working over a specific kind of build. I used to spend time in the RA just for the fun of cleaning out the prolific Wammos that tend to overpopulate the region.
Robin_Anadri
Eaimirth: Have you actually seen touchers using Plague Sending? I thought about it when I was noodling around with the build, but the high energy cost coupled with being a spell and thus not subject to Expertise caused me to discard the option. Of course, if more people start meeting touchers with snares, they may figure it worth the cost, but it will make them all the easier to e-deny. 
As for res sig, I left it out because I mainly hunt touchers in Alliance Battles, where it's not necessary. Of course we'd want to throw that in for RA.
As for Phantom Pain... *DOH!* How could I forget my new favorite skill, Accumulated Pain? I really do like it much better than PP, because it's Deep Wound *right now.*
If i'm going to leave out apply poison and hunter's shot, there's really no point to including the /R sub at all. I know that there are pure mesmer ways to own touchers, I've done it multiple times myself. But I was basically throwing out the "Mesmer and Ranger - two great tastes that taste great together" thing wrt killing touchers quickly and efficiently. I'm thinking that with the snare, poison, bleeding, degen and deep wound, we should have the touch ranger dead before he can *think* about trying a plague touch/send. (Also, note the inclusion of Storm Chaser in my build - it shouldn't be too hard to kite out of spell range leaving behind a crippled, poisoned, bleeding, deep-wounded hexed vampire soon to be dead.)
I included Troll Unguent just to have some heal, my combo would require a noticible investment in Wilderness Survival, I wouldn't expect TU to be used except as an idling skill between battles, but may as well use it since the points are in that line.
LouAl: I like to stack on as much degen as possible, so that no matter what they do, they can't get out from under that -10 cap. Most touchers don't carry Troll Unguent, because there are only 6 points to spare for WS, but I don't them to be able to stave off even a few pips of the degen. That also helps counter healing breeze if an enemy monk tries to counter the degen for them. Massive overkill FTW!
As for killing wammos... it's almost too easy with a mesmer. Hee.
As for res sig, I left it out because I mainly hunt touchers in Alliance Battles, where it's not necessary. Of course we'd want to throw that in for RA.
As for Phantom Pain... *DOH!* How could I forget my new favorite skill, Accumulated Pain? I really do like it much better than PP, because it's Deep Wound *right now.*
If i'm going to leave out apply poison and hunter's shot, there's really no point to including the /R sub at all. I know that there are pure mesmer ways to own touchers, I've done it multiple times myself. But I was basically throwing out the "Mesmer and Ranger - two great tastes that taste great together" thing wrt killing touchers quickly and efficiently. I'm thinking that with the snare, poison, bleeding, degen and deep wound, we should have the touch ranger dead before he can *think* about trying a plague touch/send. (Also, note the inclusion of Storm Chaser in my build - it shouldn't be too hard to kite out of spell range leaving behind a crippled, poisoned, bleeding, deep-wounded hexed vampire soon to be dead.)
I included Troll Unguent just to have some heal, my combo would require a noticible investment in Wilderness Survival, I wouldn't expect TU to be used except as an idling skill between battles, but may as well use it since the points are in that line.
LouAl: I like to stack on as much degen as possible, so that no matter what they do, they can't get out from under that -10 cap. Most touchers don't carry Troll Unguent, because there are only 6 points to spare for WS, but I don't them to be able to stave off even a few pips of the degen. That also helps counter healing breeze if an enemy monk tries to counter the degen for them. Massive overkill FTW!
As for killing wammos... it's almost too easy with a mesmer. Hee.
Eaimirth Etaivella
Well its also note worthy that ailments are very easy to remove; while as hexes are difficult. If they don't plague send you, they will plague send a teammate...which are all too plentiful in allience battles (or so I would assume). Also yes; I have seen them use it. (Off topic but avoid mend ailment like the plague)
Me/R has very little synergy going for it; famine...tiger's fury...and thats about it. Both classes accomplish kiting very well; but ironically are not so great when combined together.
I would take etherfeast over trolls anyday, in fact I am often disappointed in teammates who use trolls. In those 3 seconds they often take more damage than they heal; and those 3 stationary seconds are best used running. Its an ok skill for a r/ but definatly not for a me/r (although I still despise it regardless)
"Right now" deepwound is fine; but hey I only have prophicies and I don't need the deepwound now, I need it in 20seconds ^_^;
so basically what I am suggesting is
Big three
-phantom/accumlated pain (I suggest phantom for cover+damage...mainly cover)
-crippling anguish or other slow skill (hex)
-degen skill (IoR or conjure, I personally don't care...well I do care...take IoR...wait... take IoR if you are majoring in illusion conjure if majoring in inspiration)
Supportive skills
-Res sig
-Energy Tap/Drain (energy)
-Ether Feast (heal skill)
-Mantra of Persistence (...duh)
-Kitah's/ethernal burden (more energy)
-Imagined burden (if you don't take anguish)
-Distortion~
-Spirit shackles
-Arcane condium
-random illusion hex thingy
-inspired hex/copy of inspired hex
-ETHER LORD!!! (just kidding =p)
-some more that I can't think of
Diviations of course as long as the big three are there everything will go fine (maybe make it a big four by adding persistence, heck in allience battles IoR spam everything because you can for pressure...I mean its what 5 energy for about 200 damage?)
Me/R has very little synergy going for it; famine...tiger's fury...and thats about it. Both classes accomplish kiting very well; but ironically are not so great when combined together.
I would take etherfeast over trolls anyday, in fact I am often disappointed in teammates who use trolls. In those 3 seconds they often take more damage than they heal; and those 3 stationary seconds are best used running. Its an ok skill for a r/ but definatly not for a me/r (although I still despise it regardless)
"Right now" deepwound is fine; but hey I only have prophicies and I don't need the deepwound now, I need it in 20seconds ^_^;
so basically what I am suggesting is
Big three
-phantom/accumlated pain (I suggest phantom for cover+damage...mainly cover)
-crippling anguish or other slow skill (hex)
-degen skill (IoR or conjure, I personally don't care...well I do care...take IoR...wait... take IoR if you are majoring in illusion conjure if majoring in inspiration)
Supportive skills
-Res sig
-Energy Tap/Drain (energy)
-Ether Feast (heal skill)
-Mantra of Persistence (...duh)
-Kitah's/ethernal burden (more energy)
-Imagined burden (if you don't take anguish)
-Distortion~
-Spirit shackles
-Arcane condium
-random illusion hex thingy
-inspired hex/copy of inspired hex
-ETHER LORD!!! (just kidding =p)
-some more that I can't think of
Diviations of course as long as the big three are there everything will go fine (maybe make it a big four by adding persistence, heck in allience battles IoR spam everything because you can for pressure...I mean its what 5 energy for about 200 damage?)
Robin_Anadri
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella
Me/R has very little synergy going for it; famine...tiger's fury...and thats about it. Both classes accomplish kiting very well; but ironically are not so great when combined together.
Oy. It pains me to admit it, but I can't argue after last night's testing. Mesmer primaries make poor rangers, at least if you're going to be using a bow. Those missing runes make a big difference, as does the lack of Expertise. Bow attacks and preperations are *expensive.*
I may still try a R/Me build, but I can only see carrying Imagined Burden and maybe IoR. I'm not even sure about Imagined Burden, it's just far too easy to apply Crippled with ranger skills.
Soooooo.... Me/R FTL.
What about other secondary synergies? I mean, we all know that pure mesmer can hunt touchers pretty effectively, but I'm still interested in finding some kind of interesting synergy with a subclass, for variety/flavor.
Suggestions, anybody?
I may still try a R/Me build, but I can only see carrying Imagined Burden and maybe IoR. I'm not even sure about Imagined Burden, it's just far too easy to apply Crippled with ranger skills.
Soooooo.... Me/R FTL.
What about other secondary synergies? I mean, we all know that pure mesmer can hunt touchers pretty effectively, but I'm still interested in finding some kind of interesting synergy with a subclass, for variety/flavor.
Suggestions, anybody?
Avarre
Mesmer primary cannot effectively subclass to war or ranger really... they have no spells to speak of, and that's that.
Pure mesmers can beat touchers;
Mes ele... well fc water would win, otherwise it would use mostly the same as pure
None of the other classes have anything I can think of immediately that would be better than a pure mesmer's skills. Even feast (since you already have insp) is a better selfheal in most cases.
Pure mesmers can beat touchers;
Mes ele... well fc water would win, otherwise it would use mostly the same as pure
None of the other classes have anything I can think of immediately that would be better than a pure mesmer's skills. Even feast (since you already have insp) is a better selfheal in most cases.
Leon_Ux-ixen
HA!!!! Now I WILL TELLL THE LUXON TOUCH RANGERS AND YOUR EVIL KRUZICK PLANS WILL BE RUINED!!!!
Avarre
What are they going to do? Bleed on us?
Eaimirth Etaivella
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
What are they going to do? Bleed on us?
Ouch...I hate to admit it but that was a nice one.
Also since the mesmer primary is fast casting...it pains me to see that rangers and warriors have no spells. Thus the only benefit these classes can get from mesmers is; higher attributes in mesmer skills, and their armor...
Problem is; higher attributes in mesmer skills=a better spell caster=more fast casting (in general)
So we have distortion...
All hail IAS buff stance/enchantment in fast casting line! (<-I swear the more I think about it the more it seems like a good idea...non-elite would be good)
Also since the mesmer primary is fast casting...it pains me to see that rangers and warriors have no spells. Thus the only benefit these classes can get from mesmers is; higher attributes in mesmer skills, and their armor...
Problem is; higher attributes in mesmer skills=a better spell caster=more fast casting (in general)
So we have distortion...
All hail IAS buff stance/enchantment in fast casting line! (<-I swear the more I think about it the more it seems like a good idea...non-elite would be good)
Avarre
For 5 seconds, you attack X% faster (going up like burning speed, to 42% at 12).
I could like that.
I could like that.
Eaimirth Etaivella
42% faster...wow exceeding the cap abit and would make IW way powerful...but hey I could like it too...may have to be elite at that rate though.
-edit-
Choke gas+fast cast ias would be...wow that would be lockdown if we had a shortbow...(CC bow anyone XD)
-edit-
Choke gas+fast cast ias would be...wow that would be lockdown if we had a shortbow...(CC bow anyone XD)
Avarre
Well you could reduce it abit but since it would be restricted to mesmers anyway, I don't think it would be overpowered that much.
And IW is just as easy to fight as touchers
And IW is just as easy to fight as touchers
Robin_Anadri
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
And IW is just as easy to fight as touchers
Perhaps even easier.
IW Mes: *casts IW* "HA HA! I shall do massive armor-ignoring damage to you!"
Actual Mes: *casts Shatter Enchantment* "Will you, now?"
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BTW - I've though of one possible subclass synergy - Assassin. Just for skills like Caltrops or Return or Recall, for kiting away and causing crippled. Wouldn't have to invest a lot of points in the assassin attributute to make it effective, and the shadow stepping of Return or Recall would be a nifty way to fly out of touch range after you've inflicted your degen/deep wound.
Perhaps even easier.IW Mes: *casts IW* "HA HA! I shall do massive armor-ignoring damage to you!"
Actual Mes: *casts Shatter Enchantment* "Will you, now?"
-- - - - --- ---- - - - - --
BTW - I've though of one possible subclass synergy - Assassin. Just for skills like Caltrops or Return or Recall, for kiting away and causing crippled. Wouldn't have to invest a lot of points in the assassin attributute to make it effective, and the shadow stepping of Return or Recall would be a nifty way to fly out of touch range after you've inflicted your degen/deep wound.
Eaimirth Etaivella
Hehe true they could always just shatter it XD; have had that happen to me a few times before, have been able to do a few "fake outs" where they shatter the just cast illusion of weakness instead, but I admit that is because they are inexperienced (thus I adapted my tactics to take advantage of said inexperience =p)
Shattered IW=
Me/A hope these daggers+dagger skills work...
Me/W Heal sig + conjure+BO spam ftw...er ftl...
Me/R Ok time to switch to the cc bow and attempt to kill the target w/ pet attacks
But with a Me/Mo this could be interesting; we could use guardian or some other quick casting enchantment as a cover for IW, or perhaps the IAS will cover iw? Man I get giddy whenever I think of having a IAS mesmer skill...as long as it isn't a PoS like our running skill (Illusion of haste!...seriously who made this crap? Reduce energy cost to 5, increase duration, and lower cast time jees!...says "do not use me unless you are crippled; and you should only be crippled if they have crip shot therefore I am useless for running in most scenarios" all over it) =p
Shattered IW=
Me/A hope these daggers+dagger skills work...
Me/W Heal sig + conjure+BO spam ftw...er ftl...
Me/R Ok time to switch to the cc bow and attempt to kill the target w/ pet attacks
But with a Me/Mo this could be interesting; we could use guardian or some other quick casting enchantment as a cover for IW, or perhaps the IAS will cover iw? Man I get giddy whenever I think of having a IAS mesmer skill...as long as it isn't a PoS like our running skill (Illusion of haste!...seriously who made this crap? Reduce energy cost to 5, increase duration, and lower cast time jees!...says "do not use me unless you are crippled; and you should only be crippled if they have crip shot therefore I am useless for running in most scenarios" all over it) =p
Avarre
Well Me/Mo... 42/1.33 = like 31.5 damage a second, with no way to stop kiting, oh noes! Not until we get an ias enchant...
Themis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri
Quote: Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri Things like touch rangers serve as object lessons for those willing to learn. The vampires have been the greatest force in recent memory to teach PvPers the importance of kiting, snares, and degen. Those who learn these lessons are better players for it. Those who refuse to learn will continue to get pwnt. Such is the nature of the game So ? Where is the truth dear chameleon ?
Are you blinded by Ineptitude ?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Avarre
What are they going to do? Bleed on us?
*holds belly laughing*
Eaimirth Etaivella
Quote:
Well Me/Mo... 42/1.33 = like 31.5 damage a second, with no way to stop kiting, oh noes! Not until we get an ias enchant...
Well I'm sorta scared about 42/.5 for 84 dps >.> with holy veil as a cover enchantment to boot XD using mesmer skills to stop kiting. | But it still would be low on defenses etc. etc. and 84 dps isn't that much higher than the me/r that we have (and love =p) now. Although it would look cool...and I wouldn't have to change 2ndarys as often. Maybe in next expansion...(IF I ever get the first one; man NOW I'm missing an event because they havn't shipped it...gosh forget balance anet at least send us oklahomans the game...) -edit- It would be 42/1.33/.5 wouldn't it? (<-rhetorical) What gives?
Robin_Anadri
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themis
Quote: Things like touch rangers serve as object lessons for those willing to learn. The vampires have been the greatest force in recent memory to teach PvPers the importance of kiting, snares, and degen. Those who learn these lessons are better players for it. Those who refuse to learn will continue to get pwnt. Such is the nature of the game.
So ? Where is the truth dear chameleon ?
Are you blinded by Ineptitude ?
I'm pleased that you're such an avid reader of my posts. This exchange, however, grows tiresome. Suffice it to say, despite your attempt to equivocate them, the excerpt from my post *is* an example of a clear statement, containing a completely developed thought with explanation, whereas your aforementioned "simply to learn how to play" remains bereft of content and thus not an example of "clarity."Sadly, your own verbal Clumsiness, coupled with your obvious Crippling Anguish at my rhetorical Domination, serves only to expose the Illusion you have of your relevance. Hopefully, this will serve as the final Inspiration for you to cease posting off-topic flames in this thread, as the response of the general readership will be Fast, Casting you by the wayside.
Eaimirth Etaivella
Can't we give the flames a rest?
/emote I'm using mantra of flames!
makosi
This is turning in to an "I-can-type-bigger-words-than-you-so-I-must-be-right" thread.
Just a thought: Does this thread imply that only mesmers can take on touchers? If so, then I'd say that they are in fact overpowered contrary to how I felt previously.
Dragannia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri
I'm pleased that you're such an avid reader of my posts. This exchange, however, grows tiresome. Suffice it to say, despite your attempt to equivocate them, the excerpt from my post *is* an example of a clear statement, containing a completely developed thought with explanation, whereas your aforementioned "simply to learn how to play" remains bereft of content and thus not an example of "clarity."
Sadly, your own verbal Clumsiness, coupled with your obvious Crippling Anguish at my rhetorical Domination, serves only to expose the Illusion you have of your relevance. Hopefully, this will serve as the final Inspiration for you to cease posting off-topic flames in this thread, as the response of the general readership will be Fast, Casting you by the wayside.
LOL He's won, Themis. Just give up
Robin_Anadri
Quote:
Originally Posted by makosi
Just a thought: Does this thread imply that only mesmers can take on touchers? If so, then I'd say that they are in fact overpowered contrary to how I felt previously.
Oh, no, no, no. Not the implication of this thread at all. This is just a "how-to" tactics & build thread for Mesmers that want to go vampire hunting. I think what we've established is that that for owning touchers, Mesmers shouldn't look beyond their primary class. I had a fleeting hope that my other favorite touch-hunting class, Ranger, might enable me to build The Ultimate Vampire Staking Build, but the reality is that Me/R doesn't work very well using a bow.
Briefly speaking, other classes can take on touchers by playing on the weaknesses of that build, ie., no hex removal, extremely limited condition removal, weak energy management, and extremely limited (if powerful) self-healing. Snare, degen, edenial & kiting FTW. Some classes are less capable of these activities than others and may need to lean on subclassing, but Mesmers are by no means the only counter to touchers. But then again... a well-played Mesmer is a powerful counter to any build. Countering is what we do.
Themis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragannia
LOL
He's won, Themis. Just give up
Ok, Dragannia, i'll follow your advice and give her a break. She always gets flamed on her posts, anyway... Who cares ? i don't.Back to the subject, i think a sample build to take down TR (but not just TR, 'cause they're getting more&more rare as time passes) is : Ineptitude ConjureP IoR Accumulated Pain Imagined Burden Ether Feast Drain Enchantment Epidemic 14 Illusion, 10 Inspi, 10 FC work fine. Very close to initial Robin's build, as you can see. If you need rez (on RA, for instance) you can drop Epidemic. Personally, i've never got pwnd by TR while being equipped with an Illusion build, even without a snare. So, in my case i don't take IBurden, i prefer an interrupt : Complicate. But, for those who need a "anti-TR insurance", well, Imagined Burden makes them feel safer. BTW, no need for the persistence Mantra, or you'll face energy problems. As i stated earlier, it's fairly unproductive to equip a build simply to face TRs. I mean, they're just a bit irritating, no more ! Better be efficient againt the other... 95% of builds around. That's my theory : heavy degen + snares and they'll be so disgusted dying so quickly that they will equip a better build themselves What can it be ?
Eaimirth Etaivella
What I'm saying: well I guess you could use psychic distraction here to disrupt some of the touches that hit you; although the recharge would let another one through a couple of times...also it is difficult to interrupt for alot of people, including myself if I am greatly pressured. Basically you would need blackout or diversion as additional support, but BO+diversion could lock down the build in the first place...
What I'm thinking: if only I could find a way to use powerblock here for a surefire way to victory...
Evilsod
Quote:
Originally Posted by makosi
Just a thought: Does this thread imply that only mesmers can take on touchers? If so, then I'd say that they are in fact overpowered contrary to how I felt previously.
Of course not, its just that every profession seems to think it can counter them. Mesmer been the counter class obviously can. Its just now we have Assassins and Warriors thinking they can too, when what they're actually done is find a way to make themselves harmless to everything else.
If people are gonna stand next to them after you've slowed them. They deserve to win, i'm gonna stand by that statement. If all you can do to them is slow them down and wear them down then so be it.
Phenixfire
well, i've got myself around to beat me through mineral springs to get inepitude ... and to test your build...
eh, first of all, it may be a buffy ( buffy the vampire hunter, eh, the tv series :P ) build that works great in theory... BUT ( all my experiences based on RA ) 1. the build runs into great energy problems ..ethereal burden can hardly make up for it, nor can the power drain ( 1. sometimes you're too slow to interrupt, means wasted, 2. sometimes no casters around ( no idea how often i ran into melee only teams ^^ ) the spells are simply too costly 3. ethereal burden slows for 10secs ... no way you degen the Vamp fast enough to kill him -> you need another slow skill, i went with crippling anguish in, too 4. in theory, a vamp dies due to constant degen and no life gain ... well, in action, forget it .. first in RA: no matter how often you tell people not to get near touchers, you kill em, they do, and then vamps will be able to leech again.. there goes you kill ^^ in TA: dont play there much, but i guess most there work in a team, so you wont be able to kill the toucher without attacking yourself .. forming a fighting mob around the toucher ( if it is only 1, not to mention if it is more ^^ ) and he'll be, despite the slow, soon be able to 'bite' again .. 5. by using crippling ang., i wasnt able to take another elite ( surprise surprise ).. why do you use ineptitude to finish him off ? even if you are taking it instead of CA, its a almost wasted skill to finish a vamp off, 20secs recharge for killing some life ... not to mention the 10ene, which are precious since you always seem to run into ene-probs. i used Shattered delusions, just finish the vamp off with that, low recharge, low costs... 6. there isnt always only 1 toucher in the enemy team. there are mesmers, eles, monks, and warrs too ( okok, rits and assas too ^^ ). focusing on a single target all the time ( who wont die most possibly cause off the stupidity of your team ) wont work .. there are warrs chasing your monk ( if you are lucky enough to get one ^^ ), those could need a slow too all that will only worsen your ene-probs 7. some touchers also use life siphon .. not that grave, but it will slow the degen by three, just wanted to have it mentioned well, as i said, nice build, but i think in practice it doesnt stand to much chances ... i'd still prefer good old knockdown-> blackout-> 9 secs should be enoughto kill a toucher without a monk supporting him ( if you gang up on him first ) .. if there is a monk, well, dont think degen build would be much better then ... Eaimirth Etaivella
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenixfire
first in RA: no matter how often you tell people not to get near touchers, you kill em, they do, and then vamps will be able to leech again..
To all those who argued against me...I told ya so.
Sure they "deserve to win" but that doesn't change the fact that your team lost...which in the end is all that matters.
Phenixfire
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella
To all those who argued against me...I told ya so.
Sure they "deserve to win" but that doesn't change the fact that your team lost...which in the end is all that matters. tbh, iff i think about it, there is no way to degen a toucher dead ... assuming the situation in ra/ta that is present in 9,99 cases out of 10 ^^ two teams, each of its members standing besides each other ( not more than 0,5 secs normal movement speed between them ). the team without a monk will most possibly attack first, or the team without casters ... ok, one team charges, you slow and degen the toucher .. even slowed, he will be close enough to his team mates to reach one of their attackers in about 2 secs ... then he can touch and leech again, outleeching your dmg per sec by far ^^ and even if one team doesnt charge in, it is not like all other opponents freeze only cause you buffy the toucher ... they will deal dmg too, be it through warrs or through casters.. that will often cause some running, trying to get rid off the attacker ... shortens the distance between the toucher and a victim ... he will be able to touch soon enough again, not to mention your energy problems that will occur then, limiting your ability to keep up the degen and slow and if there is no running cause of no melees attacking your party .. mesmers will degen you and your team, eles will spike.. constant pressure .. no way to wait until a vamp is degend and stand still until then retreating as an alternative to attacking ( which implys going near enemy -> toucher range ), they'll of course chase you, draining your monks energy by constant dmg dealing, and letting the enemy gain ground is imho never good ( all that assuming you have a highly disciplined team, which is very hard in ra ( some dont even speak english there ^^ )) imho, best way to kill em, is,as i said, skill denial. Eaimirth Etaivella
I would suggest wither but I won't...so I will suggest panic instead. Panic him, energy burn, energy tap, signet of w., energy denial of your choice and bam gg. If he opts to cast life siphon power leak that into the dirt as well; will only make things tons easier.
Themis
@Phenixfire :
I don't think Robin's build can get into energy problems if you cast properly. Probably you cast Conjure and IoR too often, causing an energy shortdown, no ? If you really plan to spam CP and IoR, then you should consider using Imagined Burden with Auspicious Incantation or an Elite energy management (Energy Drain for instance). This is not just theory. I've been using this kind of build for over a month, and i only have energy problems in the above cases, although i'm equipped with a 20%+20% illusion+all skills recharge. imo, Ineptitude is not meant to finish off. It's meant to make the build more general, being able to be used towards other W/Asn/R, not just TouchRangers. I agree with your vision about RA. Even with a specialized build, there's no sure way to victory without experienced teammates. So, if you slow down the TR, but meanwhile your team can't or won't deal with the others, or won't kite while being close to a TR, well... forget it. @Eaimirth : Panic... i tried it also. It's quite fun, but i ended up getting Auspicious incantation as well. I've found no other way of getting enough energy to keep Panic up every 25-30 seconds
Eaimirth Etaivella
True ^_~; panic is energy demanding. Like I said I would suggest wither...but I won't.
Avarre
Wither would work with other degen well but it's way to simple for a toucher to remove his staff, wield it again, use OoB or whatever, and carry on normally.
So I too could suggest wither... but I won't
Terra Xin
Looks like sig of Disenchant has yet another use^^.
Aside. I had to laugh when I brought a degen mesmer with iron Mist... very good fun toying with dirty little hands this way. Bloodied Blade
If you're trying to take out a touch ranger, I've found that it's nearly impossible in RA to do it with a Degen/Slow build *alone*. I was playing around in RA with apparently the same idea that the op had (slow + degen + shutdown = dead irritant). I ran a multi-purpose slow/degen shutdown something like:
(Don't remember attributes) Crippling Anguish Imagined Burden Conjure Phantasm Phantom Pain Energy Tap Ether Feast Distortion / Utility Res Signet (I usually use the build in RA) The major downside that I always find is having to get teammates who understand that you can run from the foe with degen on him. I have found the build very effective against a variety of gimmick builds that are so common in RA and TA right now... The AoD assassin, the IW mesmer, the *touch ranger*, but I digress somewhat. I'll...how shall I say this... cut the crap and get to the point. Concentrate your hexes on the Touch Ranger and it becomes substantially easier to kill. With any luck you will have an elementalist or blood necromancer on your team capable of dealing large amounts of damage to the touch ranger who can help. Ether Feast and Energy Tap are just a little bit of E-Denial + utility thrown into the mix that lower the effectiveness of the TR a little. Distortion is there to neutralize Assassins, Warriors, and various non-TR ranger builds. I wish the rest of you luck in your ventures.
Avarre
At above:
For one, AoD assassin is hardly a gimmick anymore. You might as well call shock axe a gimmick Snaring a toucher and then all focusing fire on him generally kills him quick. The OP recommended degen because that is the most sustainable conditionless damage a mesmer has.
Terra Xin
yeah I got really irritated when in one battle I used iron mist on the vampire, and guess who wouldnt kite and decided to take him on?? THE FRLIPPIN WAMMO!!!
*storms off to read more heal-bot comics...* I also used a hardy popular full inspiration build. Of course it did no damage, and i couldnt die, but the TR was rendered useless with no energy. I used a build similar to this one: Mantra of Recovery Energy Tap Ether Feast Ether Lord Spirit Shackles Spirit of Failure Optional (physical mantra preferred) Res sig The only problem was... of course, I could do no damage, and if the target had no energy, i couldnt heal. It was good however for multiple target casting. I can easily have one or two people rendered useless with this build. Back to the touch ranger, next time ill bring a higher dom rating and take empathy or something... |
