An end to PvE Character skill segregation - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Cirian

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

European Union

The Amazon Basin

26 Jun 2006 at 11:58 - 1

As PvP players will appreciate, once a skill is unlocked for their account, it's in their library for use on any of their PvP characters. It's fantastic - you only have to get the skill once.

On my PvE characters I have to confess that I'm infuriated by being locked out of my account's skill library when I create a new character. I don't have time or the willpower after a year of playing to get a duplicate of skills I've already collected once - it's mindlessly time consuming, expensive, and it's just not fun!

If I only had one PvE character then the problem would be less pronounced, but as it happens I like to re-roll characters quite a lot and run a handful of PvE characters. After a year of playing I've unlocked a lot of skills, and what I'd really like to do for convenience sake is to have access to all of my unlocked skills accross all of my characters, PvE and PvP alike.

As a veteran, I don't want to become bored of the game by re-doing things I've already achieved - it's really soul-destroying for me now. I hate it. If I could replay the game as much as I like with all my achievements in-tow, without being so locked-down, I could have a lot more fun

The bottom line is: I'm suffering burn-out from re-skilling, and it's a real problem.

edit: (I will add additional information below to make sure this idea is water-tight

)

--- ADDITIONAL ---

My preferred point for a new character to gain access to previously captured skills is after Ascention (or it's equivalent) to prevent abuse at low level. Only ascended L20 characters will benefit.

Skill Hunter: becomes account based, so you can combine the efforts of all of your characters. Effectively you become the Skill Hunter, not an individual character. That means when a new expansion come out you can roll the new classes, capture their elites and be up to date on your title instead of dragging that Chapter 1 character everywhere - unless you want to, in which case you can. Balthazar Faction will offer another route to Skill Hunter; ultimately it's the personal experience that counts, and I will be capping from monsters

Thanks to everyone giving me feedback to fine-tune this idea, keep it up!

Rikimaru

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

R/

26 Jun 2006 at 14:37 - 2

Almost any Tyrian skill trainer will teach you any prophecies and core skill you've already unlocked. I Don't know if there are any like that in Cantha, but I haven't found any.

monkey grip

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2006

Nefarious Coterie [Cult]

R/

26 Jun 2006 at 16:22 - 3

i fell your pain, been wanting this for a year now.

DeanBB

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

Arizona

Wizardry Players Guild, http://4guildwars.7.forumer.com

26 Jun 2006 at 16:26 - 4

Quote:

Almost any Tyrian skill trainer will teach you any prophecies and core skill you've already unlocked.

Those are the easy skills to get anyway since they are from quests and traders. Yes it is nice to have them available from any trader now though.

The elites are the troublesome ones since you have to hunt down the bosses one by one to cap them. If you're lucky you can get 2-3 at a time in a zone but usually it is one.

I'm not sure what a good solution to that is though.

Senketsou

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2005

T-L-A

26 Jun 2006 at 16:45 - 5

that would be nice... however lower level arenas will be one-sided towards players with all those skills unlocked

Dougal Kronik

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2005

Ontario, Canada

Glengarry Fencibles

R/

26 Jun 2006 at 17:22 - 6

I don't think that the Elites should be available unless that specific character has unlocked them.

Not only is that part of the bulding of your character, but it would also seriously throw off the Skill Hunter title.

You can't have the skills anyway since you have to accumulate your skill points to buy/capture them.

Maybe you should keep a few of the characters that seem to have your most used Primary profession, and just change secondaries/armour/items.

MegaMouse

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

south mississippi

Warriors Of Melos WOM

E/N

26 Jun 2006 at 17:33 - 7

I agree with Dougal. Leave the elites out of it, just allow you to have the normal skills that you have unlocked available on your account available that way you wont have to go out and hunt them down all the time.

Have Fun Play Fair
Mega Mouse Leader and c0-founder Section Five

Cirian

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

European Union

The Amazon Basin

26 Jun 2006 at 18:11 - 8

The trouble with re-skilling became apparent only after I'd done it more times than I care to remember.

When the game was young, it was ok - it didn't take long to re-cover the ground, re-do quests and such... but now the game is really rather big and I know Tyria like the back of my hand - I completed Protector of Tyria and Tyrian Grandmaster Cartographer, so I'd like to think I was 'done' there and I want to go onto new ground, with all my achievements in tow.

There's still a lot... probably a few hundred skills more for me to collect, and right now I have to do that per character. Ouch! That's way to much time than is possible. Like I said, it's not so bad if you only have 1 main PvE character, but if you like to re-roll characters and have a few characters on the go like I do... re-skilling gets in the way of making progress.

Guild Wars has added great features to cut out mindless activities. Map Travel and the modifying attributes in town are two great examples. I can still remember playing DAoC and spending maybe 20 minutes just travelling to get somewhere, or having to go on a long raid for a respec stone if I wanted to change my stats.

I think opening a player's skill library to all of that person's characters is important to eliminate tedium as the game grows. I've earned every last one of my skills and I'd like to use them on every one of my characters eventually - that could happen at a point in the story and I'd be fine with it, like say after you do the "Closer to the Stars" bit in Cantha or after you Ascend in Tyria.

Incidentally, I don't think a title is a good reason to block this idea. I know the concern will be that Skill Hunter could be gained for an account via Balthazar Faction, but if I had to balance the importance of the two... I'd open up the skill library.

scrinner

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

26 Jun 2006 at 18:33 - 9

Imagine the powers a person could have in PRE Areas, and areas meant towards lower level people. Theyve already come up with a solution to this. Just buy that skill again if you have it unlocked, And no its not expensive as you will never need ALL those skills.

mqstout

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

Pittsburgh

26 Jun 2006 at 19:01 - 10

It is really annoying to have to pay a plat for skills I've already unlocked on other characters, or even the same character if I reroll him to change his looks.

Loviatar

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Feb 2005

26 Jun 2006 at 19:10 - 11

UAS all over again for PVE

no way.

if the game is too much work take a break.

1 gold dyes eh?

so lets stop having dye drop as a nice goodie as well. after all a dye at 1 gold isnt worth stopping for.

unlock skills once and give the rest to you free forever? hell no.

gabrial heart

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

Las Vegas

Beautiful Peoples Club [LIPO]

Mo/Me

26 Jun 2006 at 20:09 - 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

The trouble with re-skilling became apparent only after I'd done it more times than I care to remember.

When the game was young, it was ok - it didn't take long to re-cover the ground, re-do quests and such... but now the game is really rather big and I know Tyria like the back of my hand - I completed Protector of Tyria and Tyrian Grandmaster Cartographer, so I'd like to think I was 'done' there and I want to go onto new ground, with all my achievements in tow.

There's still a lot... probably a few hundred skills more for me to collect, and right now I have to do that per character. Ouch! That's way to much time than is possible. Like I said, it's not so bad if you only have 1 main PvE character, but if you like to re-roll characters and have a few characters on the go like I do... re-skilling gets in the way of making progress.

Guild Wars has added great features to cut out mindless activities. Map Travel and the modifying attributes in town are two great examples. I can still remember playing DAoC and spending maybe 20 minutes just travelling to get somewhere, or having to go on a long raid for a respec stone if I wanted to change my stats.

I think opening a player's skill library to all of that person's characters is important to eliminate tedium as the game grows. I've earned every last one of my skills and I'd like to use them on every one of my characters eventually - that could happen at a point in the story and I'd be fine with it, like say after you do the "Closer to the Stars" bit in Cantha or after you Ascend in Tyria.

Incidentally, I don't think a title is a good reason to block this idea. I know the concern will be that Skill Hunter could be gained for an account via Balthazar Faction, but if I had to balance the importance of the two... I'd open up the skill library.

I don't think there is a good solution to this. Elites are elites because of how much faction they cost or the time envolved in getting them (viable in both pvp and pve) + the extra oomph of the skill itself. Pvp, there are no ways to capture elites, so it only makes sense to have them unlocked all the time and rerolling a character is more often the case to just get a different build. But in pve, why keep re-rolling? Whats the benifit to it? I dunno, but I'd be dammed if i were ever to concider re-rolling my monk after capturing 91 elites! It just just doesn't make any sense. Why give up the versatility of a character with a ton of elites unlocked in leu of a re-roll? Even so, your still going to have to regain all your skill points and earn enough moola to buy them over again, why not spend 5-15 minutes just capturing it over?

I made an ele and out of pure stupidity named her selena of ice, now i would like to go back and re roll her just to change her name, but damn she has 54 elites! how about we just have the option to change her name/appearence at some point? this has been suggested numerous times, would that option be good for you too?, i dunno... i agree capping across characters is a pain, but i don't see elites having near as much meaning if you only had to either spend a few minutes in pvp to unlock them or just be able to re-roll and buy them for a few hours of pve questing. i could only imagine what lower level arenas with newly made accounts would be screaming about "OMG PWNAGE, I HATE THIS GAME".

kryshnysh

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2006

Valkyrie Einherjar

Mo/

26 Jun 2006 at 21:23 - 13

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaMouse

I agree with Dougal. Leave the elites out of it, just allow you to have the normal skills that you have unlocked available on your account available that way you wont have to go out and hunt them down all the time.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Game_updates/20060309

The non-elite part has been in the game since March.

For rerolling, one reason is some people like to repeat the storyline missions and such, but would like to use those unlocked skills from previous characters. Sure, you could repeat all of post-searing with a level 20, but that defeats the reason most people who do this are repeating these missions and quests so much. I'd like to see it in one sense, but I see lots of problems with as much, such as the already mentioned elites all over lower level arenas.

Kool Pajamas

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2005

Maryland

Mage Elites [MAGE]

26 Jun 2006 at 21:35 - 14

Maybe they should lower the cost of skills you already have unlocked.

Cirian

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

European Union

The Amazon Basin

26 Jun 2006 at 21:50 - 15

Ok, lets think about extra classes. If I roll up a PvE Assassin or Ritualist, I can go around collecting up the Canthan skills, but I have to replay Tyria to re-collect secondary class skills I've already collected with existing characters.

Looking ahead to Chapter 3, there are new professions coming in that have to replay Chapter 1 and Chapter 2 to have a full skill set. With a PvP character I may well end up with full access to every skill in the game, but you know I'd never even contemplate trying that with a Chapter 2 or 3 Character because of all the back-tracking required.

As the game grows, the new classes have a bigger and bigger backlog of secondary skills, requiring more and more back-tracking to re-collect - that's pointless, but it's only becoming apparent now.

The skill library is open to PvP characters and that's great. There should be a point in the game when it opens for PvE characters too - I suggest after Ascending, because I agree that low level characters should not have access. Not to mention, new classes should be learned properly.

Ascending is a good point because that's when characters "come of age" and unlock their inner potential, and alternate secondary classes open up. Open up a player's skill library at that point.

zemelett

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

The Dead-Lands

26 Jun 2006 at 21:59 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kool Pajamas

Maybe they should lower the cost of skills you already have unlocked.

I'm good with that idea, only if they do it by about 90% and do away with the cost going up every time you buy a skill...

Legendary Shiz

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

26 Jun 2006 at 22:01 - 17

I don't think you would need ALL the skills, sure it's nice to have but since its obviously such a strain to get them all why get ones you have no use for? I'm sure you have a build or three in mind for that character...so get the skills you need, and a few that might help for that build and dont worry about it. Getting all the skills for every secondary is pointless IMO unless its maybe your first character. And even then, why pay 1 plat when you could just make a new character, spend a few days on it and save yourself some money. Granted that's a bit time consuming, but it is a game...and I'm sure doing that is a bit easier on the budget than just blowing 20k on skills.

Caleb

Nil nisi malis terrori.

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/Me

26 Jun 2006 at 22:23 - 18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kool Pajamas

Maybe they should lower the cost of skills you already have unlocked.

I sure wish they would do this. 1k per skill is expensive across several characters!

Cirian

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

European Union

The Amazon Basin

27 Jun 2006 at 00:09 - 19

If I roll a new class, I'd want to spend the skill points and money earning new, primary skills. For a Canthan character for example, I'd want to buy Canthan skills, and that would be progress. When Chapter 3 comes out, I'd like to concentrate on a Chapter 3 character and collect Chapter 3 skills, not having to worry about back-tracking.

The cost of duplicating skills across characters runs into hundreds of skill points and plat per character! Unless it's a PvP character, in which case you're sitting pretty.

The problem will only get bigger with each expansion. Any new class will face a huge backlog of secondary skills to collect, and that goes for Skill Hunter titles too. I doubt many people will roll a Chapter 3 character and trawl through Chapter 1 and 2 for all the elites the way things stand. It's much more likely to be a person dedicated to a single Chapter 1 character that gets the title, and not someone who captures all the elites across multiple characters. I'm sure there are folks like myself who like to capture all their skills across multiple characters, and well, it's not really fair is it?

The onus on playing a single Chapter 1 PvE character to have access to your whole skill library also flies in the face of the new professions. They're always going to be crippled by comparison, since the hundreds of hours I put into previous chapters does nothing for next chapter characters, unless they're PvP characters. That really sucks when I think about rolling a new character, especially a new chapter character.

So I still say "Open the skill library after Ascention" for PvE characters. It will save my sanity

bilateralrope

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

New Zealand

Xen Of Onslaught (Xen of the Pacific division)

27 Jun 2006 at 03:05 - 20

Quote:

If I only had one PvE character then the problem would be less pronounced, but as it happens I like to re-roll characters quite a lot and run a handful of PvE characters

Quote:

There's still a lot... probably a few hundred skills more for me to collect, and right now I have to do that per character. Ouch! That's way to much time than is possible. Like I said, it's not so bad if you only have 1 main PvE character, but if you like to re-roll characters and have a few characters on the go like I do... re-skilling gets in the way of making progress.

Quote:

The cost of duplicating skills across characters runs into hundreds of skill points and plat per character! Unless it's a PvP character, in which case you're sitting pretty.

Cirian, from your posts it appears to me that your complaining that for each of your PvE characters you have to go and aquire skills again. PvE characters are not meant to be re-rolled whenever you feel like it, which is why you have to grind if you delete one and decide you want to remake it.

When I delete a PvE character its because I don't like playing it anymore, and I take care to get the looks and name right first time.

/unsigned - If you really want to delete and then recreate a PvE character, only buy skills as you plan to use them.

Family Draconis

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

Minnesota

Draconis Guards

R/

27 Jun 2006 at 03:35 - 21

I understaind your pain, my friend. I especially have that problem when changing secondary professions. I have to buy a skill that's been unlocked and purchased, sometimes several times over, even though it's been done before. But like the second post states, it's not that difficult to find a skill trainer that has the skill you want. And, of course, there's always the skill trainer in the Ember Light Camp (assuming you're on Tyria) who can train every non-elite skill.

In truth, having to go through the game with a limited amount of skills makes it more challenging as well. It wouldn't be as fun if you could just go through the game with the perfect build every single time you play through. It makes you think a little bit more about your build and how to make it better. You never really know when you're going to discover a skill that you had all along but never knew you loved so much. I've done it a few times myself just recently even.

I agree that it can get a bit frustrating to have to re-train all of your skills every time, but like i said before, it makes the game more challenging and, in my opinion, more fun.

Nevin

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2005

27 Jun 2006 at 06:20 - 22

Great lets water down RP even more... What other MMO does this? I think some GW players are getting a little too spoiled with ease of playing GW. Not to mention it doesn't make RP sense at all to do this. My character "Tom McBoB" is a master of all the professions, thus my next character "Canzulo Snapperpants" will be just as good as he is!

The RP in Guild Wars isn't that great, I'm sure most of you could agree most MMO's have much more lush storylines and what not. But no need to make it any easier.

The milk shake

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2005

Pre-Searing Ascalon

R/

27 Jun 2006 at 07:56 - 23

that would be awesome, i wouldnt have to waste my time to cap eviscerate again and i could start a lv1 with hundred blades

Cirian

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

European Union

The Amazon Basin

27 Jun 2006 at 12:21 - 24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevin

Great lets water down RP even more... What other MMO does this? I think some GW players are getting a little too spoiled with ease of playing GW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

Guild Wars has added great features to cut out mindless activities. Map Travel and the modifying attributes in town are two great examples. I can still remember playing DAoC and spending maybe 20 minutes just travelling to get somewhere, or having to go on a long raid for a respec stone if I wanted to change my stats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuildWars.com

Mike O'Brien, the creator and architect of Battle.net, points out "Our vision has been to create a game that rewards skill and inventiveness rather than hundreds of hours of play, so we've built Guild Wars from the ground up to be a balanced environment where players of all skill levels can compete for recognition and prizes."

It's statements like Mike's that brought me to Guild Wars from the DAoC grindfest that finally broke me after 2 and a half years of love/hate. GW has this great attitude of rewarding achievements, but as the game expands I can see my achievements being locked in the cupboard, as if they never happened. I happen to have a long list of achievements, so it's not like I can repeat them in a week like I used to.

edit: DAoC = Dark Age of Camelot, for those who didn't know

Cirian

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

European Union

The Amazon Basin

27 Jun 2006 at 14:33 - 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevin

Not to mention it doesn't make RP sense at all to do this. My character "Tom McBoB" is a master of all the professions, thus my next character "Canzulo Snapperpants" will be just as good as he is!

I was thinking about this over a cup of tea, and I realised that what you're saying is really no different from the way your PvE characters are already related.

For a start, Canzulo Snapperpants will be in the same guild as Tom McBob. Perhaps they are best friends? He will also have the same Luxon/Kurzick faction; maybe Tom put a good word in? He might even be a fearsome Gladiator or Hero thanks to some of Tom and his friends' escapades in the PvP arenas.

Most importantly, Tom and Canzulo will always be joined at the hip because they are played by you.

Lets say Canzulo got access to all your previously hard-earned skills when he Ascended (my favourite point for this to happen, not L1). Can you think of anything really really bad that could happen, or would it simply be what I want it to be... a convenience?

edit: I've added some points from the feedback to my original post. Good stuff.

mqstout

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

Pittsburgh

27 Jun 2006 at 15:13 - 26

"What other MMO does this?"
What other MMO encourages constant character rebuilding and rerolling?

Let's get more discussion. I'd really like to see what people have to say on this. I just bought Arcane Echo last night for the fourth time (I like X/MEs, I admit) It'd be nice to see how many possible solutions we could have to the problem. A hefty discount (but still requiring the skill points) on purchasing skills already unlocked for your account seems like it's a good compromise. I also don't have a problem with waiting until a character is level 20 until they become available.

Gorebrex

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

27 Jun 2006 at 15:28 - 27

Been awhile(Ive been catching up on my other games)! I was thinkng, after youve ascended a character, why dont they just let you start your next on with ALL skills, all the max items(armor, weapons, ect.), and like 2k plat? That way you wont have to work for anything, and do whatever yo want right off the bat(sarcasm).

Age

Hall Hero

Join Date: Jul 2005

California Canada/BC

STG Administrator

Mo/

27 Jun 2006 at 21:34 - 28

What about UAS for ascended char. with the same name as soon as they do thier 2nd 15 attribute quest given by Vanyi they see another NPC for their UAS.You would have to have 200 attribute points for this to happen.

xiao1985

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

27 Jun 2006 at 22:46 - 29

unsigned... normal skills u unlocked maybe purhcased from skill trainer, elite skills are only avaliable after ascension for a reason

Pompeyfan

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

Isle of Wight

DVDF

R/

27 Jun 2006 at 23:15 - 30

Have any of you making sarcastic comments about having elites at L1 or in lower arenas actually read the OP's post properly? He suggests that any skills/elites you've already unlocked become available AFTER you ascend or complete the Nahpul Quarter mission ie. when you're already L20 so won't have access to the lower arenas anyway.

IMO I think it's a good idea - I'm pissed off with having to re-cap elites I've already capped, more so as the bosses that have them don't always spawn so you could have to do an area 4 or 5 times before striking lucky. If PvP'ers get them for all charactewrs once unlocked, so should PvE'ers - otherwise change PvP so each elite needs re-unlocking with faction for each new character.

Gorebrex

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

27 Jun 2006 at 23:46 - 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pompeyfan

Have any of you making sarcastic comments about having elites at L1 or in lower arenas actually read the OP's post properly? He suggests that any skills/elites you've already unlocked become available AFTER you ascend or complete the Nahpul Quarter mission ie. when you're already L20 so won't have access to the lower arenas anyway.

IMO I think it's a good idea - I'm pissed off with having to re-cap elites I've already capped, more so as the bosses that have them don't always spawn so you could have to do an area 4 or 5 times before striking lucky. If PvP'ers get them for all charactewrs once unlocked, so should PvE'ers - otherwise change PvP so each elite needs re-unlocking with faction for each new character.

Yes, I DID read it, but what do you mean by "properly"?
Oh noes! Just like any new character? Thats awful! /sarcasm off Dont say "Gimme gimme gimme!! I already did it once, why do I have to do it again?" Because its a NEW CHARACTER! Thats why!
PLEASE tell me why that makes any sense! Youre basically saying PvE and PvP should be virtually identical, and I a VERY much disagree with that. Theyre different for a reason, and I dont see one to make them more similar.

bilateralrope

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

New Zealand

Xen Of Onslaught (Xen of the Pacific division)

27 Jun 2006 at 23:48 - 32

Quote:

Originally Posted by mqstout

"What other MMO does this?"
What other MMO encourages constant character rebuilding and rerolling?

Guild wars doesn't encourage the constant rerolling of PvE characters, just PvP characters.

Loviatar

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Feb 2005

27 Jun 2006 at 23:49 - 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pompeyfan

Have any of you making sarcastic comments about having elites at L1 or in lower arenas actually read the OP's post properly? - otherwise change PvP so each elite needs re-unlocking with faction for each new character.

no.

someone rerolls a character for a gvg in 10 minutes and you want them to get enough faction for the elite they need?

pvp are throw away characters and pve are keepers so deal with it.

Cirian

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

European Union

The Amazon Basin

28 Jun 2006 at 22:22 - 34

I like challenges. I've done things like Protector of Tyria and even Tyrian Grandmaster Cartographer.

One of the things I'd like to do as a challenge is collect every skill, and play every class. How many skills are there now? 100 for the Chapter 1 classes and 75 for the Chapter 2 classes? Around 750 total across 8 classes?

When Chapter 3 comes out, I'd also like to play those classes and collect all those new skills. I'm guessing the 8 old classes will get new 25 skills each, and (I assume) the 2 new classes will have 75 each. Around 350 new skills total at a guess.

As you can imagine, bagging around 1,100 skills once is going to keep me busy! D'you think, if I roll a Chapter 3 character I could get access to 1,100 skills by buying them at a discounted price, assuming I had 1,100 skill points lying around? Nope, me neither! But I aspire to having all those skills... maybe I'm mad, but I like collecting

Some people are suggesting I want Easy Mode here, but does playing every class and collecting every skill in the game sound lazy? And I don't just mean "unlocked", I mean to have the complete set accessable on a PvE character eventually.

It's probably doable on a Chapter 1 character with an insane amount of exp, but that means we can't play other classes without losing access to all those skills. How many maxed Skill Hunters would make a Chapter 3 class their main if they had to start over? Right now my Chapter 2 characters are little more than toys because of this. I'll find it even harder to take my Chapter 3 characters seriously.

At the moment I might be able to collect all the skills in the game over a handfull of PvE characters, but they'd be all fragmented and not pooled together. I'd prefer to collect most Chapter 3 skills on Chapter 3 classes, Chapter 4 skills on Chapter 4 classes and so on... The bigger the game gets the more the skills will be spread around characters, and I want to pool them all together. You know, use them. All of them!

I'm ambitious!

Gorebrex

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

28 Jun 2006 at 22:34 - 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

I like challenges. I've done things like Protector of Tyria and even Tyrian Grandmaster Cartographer.

One of the things I'd like to do as a challenge is collect every skill, and play every class. How many skills are there now? 100 for the Chapter 1 classes and 75 for the Chapter 2 classes? Around 750 total across 8 classes?

When Chapter 3 comes out, I'd also like to play those classes and collect all those new skills. I'm guessing the 8 old classes will get new 25 skills each, and (I assume) the 2 new classes will have 75 each. Around 350 new skills total at a guess.

As you can imagine, bagging around 1,100 skills once is going to keep me busy! D'you think, if I roll a Chapter 3 character I could get access to 1,100 skills by buying them at a discounted price, assuming I had 1,100 skill points lying around? Nope, me neither! But I aspire to having all those skills... maybe I'm mad, but I like collecting

Some people are suggesting I want Easy Mode here, but does playing every class and collecting every skill in the game sound lazy? And I don't just mean "unlocked", I mean to have the complete set accessable on a PvE character eventually.

It's probably doable on a Chapter 1 character with an insane amount of exp, but that means we can't play other classes without losing access to all those skills. How many maxed Skill Hunters would make a Chapter 3 class their main if they had to start over? Right now my Chapter 2 characters are little more than toys because of this. I'll find it even harder to take my Chapter 3 characters seriously.

At the moment I might be able to collect all the skills in the game over a handfull of PvE characters, but they'd be all fragmented and not pooled together. I'd prefer to collect most Chapter 3 skills on Chapter 3 classes, Chapter 4 skills on Chapter 4 classes and so on... The bigger the game gets the more the skills will be spread around characters, and I want to pool them all together. You know, use them. All of them!

I'm ambitious!

All well and good, but how would Chapter 1 mobs be able to deal with Chapter 3 or 4 skills? Or Chapter 2 ones? They weren't designed to cope with those, and I think it would be unbalanced too much(a LITTLE unbalanced is ok

).

Cirian

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

European Union

The Amazon Basin

28 Jun 2006 at 23:55 - 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorebrex

All well and good, but how would Chapter 1 mobs be able to deal with Chapter 3 or 4 skills? Or Chapter 2 ones? They weren't designed to cope with those, and I think it would be unbalanced too much(a LITTLE unbalanced is ok

).

You can already take Chapter 2 classes over to Tyria if you have a merged account like I do. I expect it will be the same with Chapters 3 and 4.

It's also worth remembering that even with many 100's of collected skills, you can only take 8 on your bar

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilateralrope

Guild wars doesn't encourage the constant rerolling of PvE characters, just PvP characters.

Not true. The creators of Guild Wars aspire, so they say, to create an expansion every 6 months to keep the revenue coming in. If each one has 2 new classes in it, then they want people to roll 2 new PvE characters every 6 months.

I know I will roll the new classes, but how many players will cling to their Chapter 1 character in fear of the loss, knowing that they have invested so much and will lose all their power?

When a new character is rolled, I don't fear replacing equipment. Material possessions from old characters are easily transferred except for customised weapons and armour, and these are trivial to replace with effective crafter or collector gear.

No, the real reason most people cling to their Chapter 1 characters instead of taking their Chapter 2 or 3 characters seriously is the investment in skills, which is what makes them powerful. I am guilty of clinging to my 2.1 million experience necromancer for this very reason. It's a sort of emotional blackmail that stops people wanting to roll another character, and that is going to backfire if we are expected to roll new classes that will never see the benefits of our past efforts.

I know I've found myself looking at Assassins and Ritualists and wanting to play one seriously, but in terms of the power of my Necromancer it's a long way to fall... if I knew I could roll one and eventually get back to where I was, like if I could take an Assassin to Ascension and not only open up my secondaries but regain my unlocked skills as well... then hey, I could potter about for a week or so going from L1 to 20 and then concentrate on exploring new content and collecting new skills for the next few months with a clear conscience.

It's not like if someone regains all their old skills eventually, there won't be enough new content to explore or skills to collect. The whole point of regaining your old skills is so you don't have to worry about losing them to enjoy new content and classes.

Gorebrex

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

30 Jun 2006 at 08:02 - 37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

You can already take Chapter 2 classes over to Tyria if you have a merged account like I do. I expect it will be the same with Chapters 3 and 4.
It's also worth remembering that even with many 100's of collected skills, you can only take 8 on your bar

Not true. The creators of Guild Wars aspire, so they say, to create an expansion every 6 months to keep the revenue coming in. If each one has 2 new classes in it, then they want people to roll 2 new PvE characters every 6 months.
I know I will roll the new classes, but how many players will cling to their Chapter 1 character in fear of the loss, knowing that they have invested so much and will lose all their power?

When a new character is rolled, I don't fear replacing equipment. Material possessions from old characters are easily transferred except for customised weapons and armour, and these are trivial to replace with effective crafter or collector gear.

No, the real reason most people cling to their Chapter 1 characters instead of taking their Chapter 2 or 3 characters seriously is the investment in skills, which is what makes them powerful. I am guilty of clinging to my 2.1 million experience necromancer for this very reason. It's a sort of emotional blackmail that stops people wanting to roll another character, and that is going to backfire if we are expected to roll new classes that will never see the benefits of our past efforts.

I know I've found myself looking at Assassins and Ritualists and wanting to play one seriously, but in terms of the power of my Necromancer it's a long way to fall... if I knew I could roll one and eventually get back to where I was, like if I could take an Assassin to Ascension and not only open up my secondaries but regain my unlocked skills as well... then hey, I could potter about for a week or so going from L1 to 20 and then concentrate on exploring new content and collecting new skills for the next few months with a clear conscience.

It's not like if someone regains all their old skills eventually, there won't be enough new content to explore or skills to collect. The whole point of regaining your old skills is so you don't have to worry about losing them to enjoy new content and classes.

So why that a good thing? Like I said, the Capter 1 mobarent equipped(to my best knowledge) to fight against Chapter 2 skills.
Having an ascended Necro, and a Warrior almost there, Im pretty sure Ive heard somewhere that you can only use 8 skills at once... : P : D
(From NC : "WOOOT! You guys now have 24 types of characters to choose from! Oh yeah, you only get 8 slots though, and only 25 slots in iinv - LOLOL

Navaros

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2005

Mo/Me

30 Jun 2006 at 09:13 - 38

Original poster is right: there is no reason why PVE characters should have to again acquire skills that the player has already unlocked on other PVE characters. That is Grind with a capital G. It's not fun, and it's not supposed to be what the game is about. Original poster's idea would make rolling new characters a lot more fun, as opposed to agonizing when one think's of all the skills he'd have to grind to get again even though they have already been acquired on another character.

Anything that reduces grind and makes the game more fun is worth putting in.

/signed

bilateralrope

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

New Zealand

Xen Of Onslaught (Xen of the Pacific division)

30 Jun 2006 at 09:23 - 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

Not true. The creators of Guild Wars aspire, so they say, to create an expansion every 6 months to keep the revenue coming in. If each one has 2 new classes in it, then they want people to roll 2 new PvE characters every 6 months.

I know I will roll the new classes, but how many players will cling to their Chapter 1 character in fear of the loss, knowing that they have invested so much and will lose all their power?

What loss of power ?
We are keeping your old characters, so we lose nothing.

Quote:

I know I've found myself looking at Assassins and Ritualists and wanting to play one seriously, but in terms of the power of my Necromancer it's a long way to fall... if I knew I could roll one and eventually get back to where I was, like if I could take an Assassin to Ascension and not only open up my secondaries but regain my unlocked skills as well... then hey, I could potter about for a week or so going from L1 to 20 and then concentrate on exploring new content and collecting new skills for the next few months with a clear conscience.

Except the strength of the new characters comes from the skills of their class, being the completly new skills. Not the skills of their secondary class. So your assassin lacks minion summoning skills that your necromancer has. But you can't use them well anyway, so I see no loss. Sure there are a few builds that make heavy use of secondary class skills (like ritualist minion bombing), but that only requires you to buy a few skills. The large majority of those skills are not going to be useful, so will remain unused.

Cirian

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

European Union

The Amazon Basin

30 Jun 2006 at 10:35 - 40

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilateralrope

What loss of power ?
We are keeping your old characters, so we lose nothing.

Except the strength of the new characters comes from the skills of their class, being the completly new skills. Not the skills of their secondary class. So your assassin lacks minion summoning skills that your necromancer has. But you can't use them well anyway, so I see no loss. Sure there are a few builds that make heavy use of secondary class skills (like ritualist minion bombing), but that only requires you to buy a few skills. The large majority of those skills are not going to be useful, so will remain unused.

The system is radically more powerful than you make out. I'm a build maker, and that means skills are my currency. I don't like looking up a cookie cutter build on a forum, I want to find it myself. I've built so many effective builds out of the secondaries on my necromancer, ranger, warrior and mesmer it makes my head spin.

The system has the potential to be so open to experimentation it's unreal, and that's where my fun is. That's where I get to flex my intelligence and discover something that makes playing so addictive. If a new expansion comes out and I roll a new class, can't you see it takes too long to recover 100s of previously aquired skills to fully experiment?

That's such an unnecessary barrier to enjoyment, and I see some people are agreeing with me. Some people are happy just using builds, but those like myself want to find them