Is Shove really an Elite?

Hear me out. Shock does roughly 22 damage with the current shock warrior build.

Depending on your build setup, shove does between 59 and 63. Shock recharges in 10 seconds and causes exhaustion (a very high price to pay as any W/E knows). Shove recharges in 20 seconds and recycles your non-attack skills (a heavy penalty for any skill, elite skill or otherwise) after it removes all adrenaline (again, a heavy burden to bear for a skill, much less one that takes your elite slot in the process).

Is Shove worthy to call itself an Elite with these 2 self-nerfs and a higher recycle than any KD skill/spell in the game? I say no. The 20 second recycle is balanced with Gale and Shock, and the idea of one of these two self-nerfs seems fair, but both?

I think that if Shove is ever to be called an elite it needs to lose at least one of its two conditions, Adrenaline knockout or non-attack skill recycle.

Thoughts?

Half the elites in the game are garbage. Flourish, Peace and Harmony, Glimmering Mark, Whirling Axe, Amity, Primal Rage just to name a few off the top of my head.

Many of the new ones got from little to none use. Some EVEN in pve!

Spoil Victor so far wins the match!

Shove actually is the "tactic's line" knocodown. Have some uses...sometimes...maybe..if you think more...and have 50% of the skills locked...

I use it in The Deep... I haven't tried it much in PVP yet, but it does well in the deep, I just have it last in my combo after hammer bash, so all of my adrenaline is already gone.

A lot of elites are only elites because they could be combo'ed with other skills to be too powerful (hundred blades and IW, for instance), not because they're actually any good. Personally, I think there a re a ton of skills that could be removed from the game altogether and no one would really care.

Shove is good if you are a pure tank and you already have a decent block, treat shove as a support skill.

Its an alright elite, better than some, as have already been said (Spoil Victor), however, its use is obviously limited in PvP considering there are much more powerful elites, and exhaustion doesnt really cause a problem unless you really dont know how to use shock/gale/earthquake/obs flame.

I have use it sometimes just because its novelty

I used it at first for kicks in PvP for the same reason, novelty. Why not monkey around with something new. Of course, it just isnt very good on a warrior who relies on adrenaline spikes. Often you want to be able to drop a kiting target first so you can unload your damage...but you can't do that with shove since it drains all your adrenaline. Maybe it has a use on some other melee character without a dependance on adrenaline...I saw an assassin using it once, not sure how it was working out for him/her but its an idea anyway.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Shove

Not a bad skill either...
::runs out and captures it::

I dont see how pure tactics /sword warrior, dealings 70~ish + 80~ish with dual ripostes, then kicking galrath, final thrust, shove would be deadly... btw all these in the time of 3 attack skills

Well the main problem with this, for pvp mind you, is that you should never use a swords tactics warrior like this in pvp since anyone you should being spending your time killing (monks,mes,nec,ele,ranger etc) won't be triggering your riposts. Pity the silly warrior that goes after you, but pity him first because he is going after you and not who he should be.

In pve this might be interesting, but I would rather use my elite on Auspicous Parry or Glads stance for a tactice build.

In pvp (gvg especially) many warrioirs attack eachother to get adrenalin for their next spike, just for presure (to make enemy war stop kicking for a sec or two), but neither of them can spend a slot for riposte one's. Those 2 are highly pve tank-likes, they can be very deadly agains the berserking mob.

About the Shove, If they REMOVE some of the highly put downsides (lost adrenalin AND disabling of skills...GEE no other skill does that...) it can become a descent skill.

Another combo that would be too powerful would be Battle Rage + Cleave...recharges in 2 hits =O

Glimmering Mark + Thunderclap = useless Warrior/Ranger/Assassin

Haven't thought about this a lot...but Archer's Signet + Crippling Shot probably

Migraine + Powerblock/Power Leech


I've seen Shove a bit on A/Ws...more knockdown so more annoying-ness.

I don't mean to change the subject but whirling axe is great. Yeah its a low + on the damage but the 2 adrenaline recharge makes big damage combo's possible.
I run "for great justice" and tiger's fury
with that you can do a very fast combo with a lot of damage.
Whirling axe-Penetrating-Whirling Axe-Executioner's-(forgot the last one i use i think its something like furious axe?)-Then whirling axe one last time
That combo gives +damage on every hit you do and with tiger's you deal it out fast.
Try it sometime and add up the numbers tell me if its useless then.(When a warrior can single handedly take out a monk in a two monk team i think its great)

Actually, Glimmering Mark is good if you want an Air Ele to solo some groups that cluster together, like Rock Shot Devouerers or the like. It's good in farming. It's just a niche skill.

Ok. Looks like a concensus. Shove sucks, at least for wars. But how do you fix it? Does it need to be?

I'm glad A/W's have been brought into the discussion. The fact that Shove breaks adrenal spikes but has no adverse effect to their attack skills is in part the issue i've been wanting to address about the skill.

Since it disables all non-attack skills, it nerfs itself from a castor line. But Assassin damage skills cost mana and are "attack" skills (melee to boot) that apply in a chain, instead of the adrenal build required for most Warrior spike chains.

Moving on:

Do you think that this was an intentional oversight by Anet to give more Cross compatible elites to other professions (most noted being monks with E managers, nuke spamming Mesmer/eles, etc). or is this an "exploit"; an unintended consequence of the skill, nerfing itself from its own proffesion without breaking the benifits to its /alt counterparts.

I'm not sure why on earth they made it crap for warriors...but, I'm sure they realized that its drawback wouldn't affect sins and be potentially useful to them (though I can't think of it being better than any other sin combo already out there). Something silly off the top of my head...

Shove {E}
Falling Spider
Horns of the ox
something else that takes advantage of a kd'd foe (is there such a thing for a sin?)

works together...its an odd chunk of a chain, but you get 2 Kds in 3 shots. Anyway, not very good...but there might be something useful you can do with it beyond these off the cuff thoughts.

Anyway, I can't speculate as to whether it was intended to do this, but I do like the idea of cross classes working in important ways together to make your secondary more useful. On the other hand, I hate hate hate wasting my elite on an energy management skill for my monks and not being able to use one of the many cool monk elites.

QFA

*clap clap clap*

Shove would see more play time on a Sword Warrior's skillbar if 'Lose all Adenaline' was removed.

replace shove with shock and you free up your elite spot for AoD

But shock does exhaustion...if you want some nice combo's, you should really have at least 25 energy..

All the elites are worth something I think. Its just everyone these days is so obsessed with 'builds' and no one really makes their own skill barsa anymore. Me, I love experimenting withall these weird elites and skills.

Also, shove is a knockdown no matter what weapon you're wielding, guess that counts for something.

LOL, thats about what I was thinking while doing that...but i do think the demands from energy from a sin make shock worse on them than on a warrior. (reference to, 'why not use shock ')

Trash-elite IMHO

I disagree with you Liu, but thank you for responding with your views.

Firstly, the point of this discussion is to decide if Shove is worthy of calling itself an Elite. All skills have worth, even Glimmering Mark as described previously. No one here questions that a guaranteed knockdown to a touched target is a skill that can see play; the question is whether or not it should be an Elite with all the nerfs that are at present applied to it.

Secondly, I have seen no Shove builds in this or any other forum, and Shove has seen play on my bar. Builds come from people just like you, tinkering with skills to find a combination that works well.

I would be surprised if most or not all of the people replying to this thread have tried this skill. That most find it so obviously lacking suggests that the nerfs applied are not balanced with the benifits of using it.

Which brings us back to point: would removing the Adreniline nerf make shove too powerful? I say no since it still locks out reapplied Frenzy/Flurry combos and the 20 second recycle would shut out spamming. How many people believe this is the best way to buff Shove; how many disaprove?

I`d say Defiant Was Xinrae is much worse than Shove.

I think Shove should stay the way it is for reasons already stated.