Five Easy Steps to Being a Decent PvE Warrior
Ira Blinks
i can only advise you to read post #37 again...
Aisius
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winstar
1) Ok 3, You can have 3 defensive skills, for example dolyaks, watch yourself, healing sig while going high damage
2) Umm, killing any number of things faster (and much faster) makes the whole thing go faster which means its not a waste of time and is less of a stress on energy than battles that drag out longer
3) Since one can still control aggro and do all the things a warrior should while being a high damage warrior I fail to see how this doesn't fit in with teamwork
4) Since in pve a high damage tank can perform the function of any low damage defensive tank (i've done it both ways) and the high damage tank was far more efficient in getting through missiosns it seems to me that there is a lot of room for a second opinion. 16 wep foreva! The reason I think 16 points in weapon mastery is often cercumvented is because with 15 points in strength Dolyak signet can be spammed on yourself indefinetly. That's +40 armour and stops you from being knocked down ALL THE TIME.
Makes sense to then use the sentinels gear which gives you another +20 armour on each piece meaning if you have to use heal signet w/ dolyak sig up the -40 reduction in defense will only bring you back to 100 def.
I think the points listed by the OP are relivant to playing a warrior in GW's PvE, but I disagree with any statement that says a stance tank or warrior who doesn't have max weapon mastery shouldn't be played in PvE.
For all the damage warrior's and max weapon users I ask you to play a warrior in a 4 man PUG on the Captain Rujiyo's mission for the rifts. This imo, is a prime example where tank getting the aggro ahead of the group and tanking the damage for nukers to take out the targets is a neccessity. Btw, these are lvl 28 mobs.
2) Umm, killing any number of things faster (and much faster) makes the whole thing go faster which means its not a waste of time and is less of a stress on energy than battles that drag out longer
3) Since one can still control aggro and do all the things a warrior should while being a high damage warrior I fail to see how this doesn't fit in with teamwork
4) Since in pve a high damage tank can perform the function of any low damage defensive tank (i've done it both ways) and the high damage tank was far more efficient in getting through missiosns it seems to me that there is a lot of room for a second opinion. 16 wep foreva! The reason I think 16 points in weapon mastery is often cercumvented is because with 15 points in strength Dolyak signet can be spammed on yourself indefinetly. That's +40 armour and stops you from being knocked down ALL THE TIME.
Makes sense to then use the sentinels gear which gives you another +20 armour on each piece meaning if you have to use heal signet w/ dolyak sig up the -40 reduction in defense will only bring you back to 100 def.
I think the points listed by the OP are relivant to playing a warrior in GW's PvE, but I disagree with any statement that says a stance tank or warrior who doesn't have max weapon mastery shouldn't be played in PvE.
For all the damage warrior's and max weapon users I ask you to play a warrior in a 4 man PUG on the Captain Rujiyo's mission for the rifts. This imo, is a prime example where tank getting the aggro ahead of the group and tanking the damage for nukers to take out the targets is a neccessity. Btw, these are lvl 28 mobs.
Katari
It doesn't take much Str or Tactics to make str and tactics based skills effective. Sure, you can have 15 str, but at 11 str, Dolyak Sig will still be of use. Is it worthwhile to kill your damage to avoid a few seconds of downtime? I actually prefer not having dolyak up fulltime because I like being able to move.
Do you need 13+ Tactics to make good use of Healing Sig and Watch Yourself? No. 11 works just fine.
Both Str and Tactics don't need to be maxed to be effective. If not 16, weapon mastery should be no less than 14. There's just no good reason to sacrifice weapon mastery for Str and Tactics. The damage output of a warrior with 14+ weapon mastery is not even close to insignifigant. If you wanted nothing but tanking you could do just as well with some silly Kinetic Armor, Obsid Flesh ele. You don't, because warriors are naturally just as tough, while being able to kill things, unlike an earth-tank ele.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winstar
Do you need 13+ Tactics to make good use of Healing Sig and Watch Yourself? No. 11 works just fine.
Both Str and Tactics don't need to be maxed to be effective. If not 16, weapon mastery should be no less than 14. There's just no good reason to sacrifice weapon mastery for Str and Tactics. The damage output of a warrior with 14+ weapon mastery is not even close to insignifigant. If you wanted nothing but tanking you could do just as well with some silly Kinetic Armor, Obsid Flesh ele. You don't, because warriors are naturally just as tough, while being able to kill things, unlike an earth-tank ele.
Quote:
1) Ok 3, You can have 3 defensive skills, for example dolyaks, watch yourself, healing sig while going high damage
2) Umm, killing any number of things faster (and much faster) makes the whole thing go faster which means its not a waste of time and is less of a stress on energy than battles that drag out longer
3) Since one can still control aggro and do all the things a warrior should while being a high damage warrior I fail to see how this doesn't fit in with teamwork
4) Since in pve a high damage tank can perform the function of any low damage defensive tank (i've done it both ways) and the high damage tank was far more efficient in getting through missiosns it seems to me that there is a lot of room for a second opinion. 16 wep foreva! QFT. People underestimate the natural toughness of warriors. Very rarely do warriors die in PvE because they couldn't 'tank' well enough. More frequent are deaths due to bad agro control, over-agroing, or just plain bad teamwork. When monking, the difference between a good damage warrior, and a "good tank" is noticable. It is noticable because when we have a bunch of 'tanks,' forward progress is noticably slower. A good 'tank' dosn't need much less healing than a good damage warrior.
2) Umm, killing any number of things faster (and much faster) makes the whole thing go faster which means its not a waste of time and is less of a stress on energy than battles that drag out longer
3) Since one can still control aggro and do all the things a warrior should while being a high damage warrior I fail to see how this doesn't fit in with teamwork
4) Since in pve a high damage tank can perform the function of any low damage defensive tank (i've done it both ways) and the high damage tank was far more efficient in getting through missiosns it seems to me that there is a lot of room for a second opinion. 16 wep foreva! QFT. People underestimate the natural toughness of warriors. Very rarely do warriors die in PvE because they couldn't 'tank' well enough. More frequent are deaths due to bad agro control, over-agroing, or just plain bad teamwork. When monking, the difference between a good damage warrior, and a "good tank" is noticable. It is noticable because when we have a bunch of 'tanks,' forward progress is noticably slower. A good 'tank' dosn't need much less healing than a good damage warrior.
Tiny Killer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira Blinks
facts:
I don't even see the room for second opinion here. And in all aspects of life, that will be your undoing.
I don't even see the room for second opinion here. And in all aspects of life, that will be your undoing.
Loch
After reading the posts saying that warriors aren't meant for damage, I need to say one thing:
Stop putting the cart before the horse.
The clueless players seem think that warriors get melee weapons because they're already standing up front soaking damage.
The truth is, it actually works the other way - warriors get heavy armor because they have to put themselves in danger to do their job, that job being to kill everything you possibly can with that heavy weapon you're holding.
Don't believe me? Before you shrug me off as an idiot, you need to do three things:
1) Put 16 points into that weapon attribute of yours
2) Play with a monk who isn't a complete tard
3) Run into groups of enemies, use Tiger's Fury or Frenzy when appropriate, and hack away until those suckers die. You will be amazed.
People need to stop this nonsense of, "Warriors are only good damage in PvP." I'm sorry, did I forget about some arbitrary game mechanic that magically makes melee damage suck? No, it's that people have this mindset that AoE is the most efficient damage-source out there. Why not just slam down enemies one at a time with high-DPS warriors, instead of worrying about getting that monster orgy together so that your AoE isn't a complete waste?
By the way, six stances/defensive skills is a complete waste when you can contribute to your defense by killing the enemy offense using attack skills. A nice side-effect is that your objective was to, you know, kill those enemies anyway.
And if you're a warrior worried about not having a decent monk? Then you're still wasting your attributes on defense, because a purely defensive warrior is basically a monk that can only keep himself alive, and not others, so you're actually gimping your team by doing this.
Stop putting the cart before the horse.
The clueless players seem think that warriors get melee weapons because they're already standing up front soaking damage.
The truth is, it actually works the other way - warriors get heavy armor because they have to put themselves in danger to do their job, that job being to kill everything you possibly can with that heavy weapon you're holding.
Don't believe me? Before you shrug me off as an idiot, you need to do three things:
1) Put 16 points into that weapon attribute of yours
2) Play with a monk who isn't a complete tard
3) Run into groups of enemies, use Tiger's Fury or Frenzy when appropriate, and hack away until those suckers die. You will be amazed.
People need to stop this nonsense of, "Warriors are only good damage in PvP." I'm sorry, did I forget about some arbitrary game mechanic that magically makes melee damage suck? No, it's that people have this mindset that AoE is the most efficient damage-source out there. Why not just slam down enemies one at a time with high-DPS warriors, instead of worrying about getting that monster orgy together so that your AoE isn't a complete waste?
By the way, six stances/defensive skills is a complete waste when you can contribute to your defense by killing the enemy offense using attack skills. A nice side-effect is that your objective was to, you know, kill those enemies anyway.
And if you're a warrior worried about not having a decent monk? Then you're still wasting your attributes on defense, because a purely defensive warrior is basically a monk that can only keep himself alive, and not others, so you're actually gimping your team by doing this.
Winstar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aisius
The reason I think 16 points in weapon mastery is often cercumvented is because with 15 points in strength Dolyak signet can be spammed on yourself indefinetly. That's +40 armour and stops you from being knocked down ALL THE TIME.
Makes sense to then use the sentinels gear which gives you another +20 armour on each piece meaning if you have to use heal signet w/ dolyak sig up the -40 reduction in defense will only bring you back to 100 def.
I think the points listed by the OP are relivant to playing a warrior in GW's PvE, but I disagree with any statement that says a stance tank or warrior who doesn't have max weapon mastery shouldn't be played in PvE.
For all the damage warrior's and max weapon users I ask you to play a warrior in a 4 man PUG on the Captain Rujiyo's mission for the rifts. This imo, is a prime example where tank getting the aggro ahead of the group and tanking the damage for nukers to take out the targets is a neccessity. Btw, these are lvl 28 mobs. Allo,
I think Dolyaks can be used perfectly well with less than 15 in str. There is only a small window in which KD will occur. You simply won't be knocked down all the time. So, I don't think there is any need to pump 14 into str and thus make the other armour necessary. Again, I do agree that one can take that route and succeed in Pve, I've simply find the other more efficient. I also agree that one shouldn't say that you ought not play a stance tank. I just don't think the in general as effective as damage tank (which isn't to say that there might be certain points where a stance tank might be more useful).
I've actually been away for the entire festival and unable to play
. I'd love to give that mission a whirl and see how it goes. That said, there isn't a mission in the game pre-festival that I haven't preferred damage on. Now farming is sometimes easier with stances, and the demands of the location will force you to vary the build. Troll farming is so rediculously easy and fast with a glads stance build that I stick with it. I generally find stances in Cantha worse for farming because of mixed mobs and also I find that more and more monsters pack wild blow. Basically, I prefer builds that mimic spider farming more than anything else.
Makes sense to then use the sentinels gear which gives you another +20 armour on each piece meaning if you have to use heal signet w/ dolyak sig up the -40 reduction in defense will only bring you back to 100 def.
I think the points listed by the OP are relivant to playing a warrior in GW's PvE, but I disagree with any statement that says a stance tank or warrior who doesn't have max weapon mastery shouldn't be played in PvE.
For all the damage warrior's and max weapon users I ask you to play a warrior in a 4 man PUG on the Captain Rujiyo's mission for the rifts. This imo, is a prime example where tank getting the aggro ahead of the group and tanking the damage for nukers to take out the targets is a neccessity. Btw, these are lvl 28 mobs. Allo,
I think Dolyaks can be used perfectly well with less than 15 in str. There is only a small window in which KD will occur. You simply won't be knocked down all the time. So, I don't think there is any need to pump 14 into str and thus make the other armour necessary. Again, I do agree that one can take that route and succeed in Pve, I've simply find the other more efficient. I also agree that one shouldn't say that you ought not play a stance tank. I just don't think the in general as effective as damage tank (which isn't to say that there might be certain points where a stance tank might be more useful).
I've actually been away for the entire festival and unable to play
Warskull
Some people seem to get it. You don't need a single skill on your bar as a warrior to soak up damage. You can also take a single mid specced tactics skill to help carry you.
You may claim that with 6 stances you can soak up more damage, but remember dead stuff doesn't hurt you. There is no reason an ele can't AoE while you kill (Rodgorts+Fireball.) You only need around 9 points in strength and tactics because you can run a number of skill that are extremely effective at that spec. You may run Dolyak sig, but I'll run "Watch Yourself" and "Rush" with that mobility I can kill whatever is a threat and support our backline at will.
I have openly frenzied against enemies in Cantha and not had any issues. You just have to realize who is a threat vs you and who isn't. If the Healer henchman can keep me alive (who happens to be a horrid monk) I don't most monks will have issues.
Try this:
16 Swordsmanship
8+1 Tactics
10+1 Strength
Sever
Gash
Quivering Blade
"To the Limit!"
"Watch Youself!"
Rush
Frenzy
Rez Sig
First do to the idle of the nameless and watch your DPS on the dummies vs your DPS with your tank. Notice how stuff dies easily? Next go try and hench a mission and see how much faster you kill stuff.
I have done Sorrow's Furnace with groups of 5 Warriors, 1 Orders Necro, and 2 monks. We went in with no quests and mopped up 7 bosses in about 25 minutes a run. We never had to take a breather between mobs, in fact we had a berserker scroll up halfway through (until we ran out of stuff to kill anywhere nearby.)
I am soaking up damage and surviving with 1-2 defensive skills. The difference is I make stuff dead rather quickly.
You may claim that with 6 stances you can soak up more damage, but remember dead stuff doesn't hurt you. There is no reason an ele can't AoE while you kill (Rodgorts+Fireball.) You only need around 9 points in strength and tactics because you can run a number of skill that are extremely effective at that spec. You may run Dolyak sig, but I'll run "Watch Yourself" and "Rush" with that mobility I can kill whatever is a threat and support our backline at will.
I have openly frenzied against enemies in Cantha and not had any issues. You just have to realize who is a threat vs you and who isn't. If the Healer henchman can keep me alive (who happens to be a horrid monk) I don't most monks will have issues.
Try this:
16 Swordsmanship
8+1 Tactics
10+1 Strength
Sever
Gash
Quivering Blade
"To the Limit!"
"Watch Youself!"
Rush
Frenzy
Rez Sig
First do to the idle of the nameless and watch your DPS on the dummies vs your DPS with your tank. Notice how stuff dies easily? Next go try and hench a mission and see how much faster you kill stuff.
I have done Sorrow's Furnace with groups of 5 Warriors, 1 Orders Necro, and 2 monks. We went in with no quests and mopped up 7 bosses in about 25 minutes a run. We never had to take a breather between mobs, in fact we had a berserker scroll up halfway through (until we ran out of stuff to kill anywhere nearby.)
I am soaking up damage and surviving with 1-2 defensive skills. The difference is I make stuff dead rather quickly.
Ira Blinks
ugh i guess some people learn to play teamwork and others... learn to play frenzy wammo... Nothing I can help...
Tiny Killer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira Blinks
ugh i guess some people learn to play teamwork and others... learn to play frenzy wammo... Nothing I can help...
So, if the objective is to kill 20 creatures and the team kills them all, the objective has failed? Sorry, Ira, you lost me there.
Maybe it is that you think it should take 2 hours to clear out Sorrows Furnace. I, on the other hand, do not have that kind of time to invest every day. I prefer to go, kill everything and get out. If I have more time available to me, I would rather go in and do it twice.
Maybe it is that you think it should take 2 hours to clear out Sorrows Furnace. I, on the other hand, do not have that kind of time to invest every day. I prefer to go, kill everything and get out. If I have more time available to me, I would rather go in and do it twice.
Winstar
^agree,
Not sure why you happen to think that you aren't a team player if you aren't standing there for the sole purpose of taking hits. If you can hold aggro, kill things faster, and as a result you get things done quickly and efficiently you are a team player.
Not sure why you happen to think that you aren't a team player if you aren't standing there for the sole purpose of taking hits. If you can hold aggro, kill things faster, and as a result you get things done quickly and efficiently you are a team player.
Jeremy Untouchable
unless i'm solo farming i run 15 sword or axe, 9 str 9 tatics, leftover points in 2ndary class.....i switch to a stance only build when i see fit, i will say this tho, warriors are the best class, in the hands of a skilled player, they can allso be the worst class in the hands of a noob
Zinger314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loch
The truth is, it actually works the other way - warriors get heavy armor because they have to put themselves in danger to do their job, that job being to kill everything you possibly can with that heavy weapon you're holding.
Assassins?
fb2000
I have a few problems with the majority of advice giving here, almost all the time i was expecting to read the next post saying that you should put Shock and Eviscerate+Executioners strike on your skillbar..
I see absolutely NO reason why you wouldnt take a REAL rez like Rebirth, but would limit yourself with rez sig... a warrior has been plenty of times the only survivor in my party.. true, if you play well and watch out you wont need it, but come on, like you wouldnt mind relaxing in pve..
unless you run a warrior heavy party, i dont see a reason for 16 in weapon, most 15 or even 14 seem to be optimal. A meteor shower (guess what, the enemies actually just stay in there and soak up the dmg from it
), can pretty much outdmg you most of the time imo. and come a bunched up 30++ warden "Rape Squad", SS would severily outdamage pretty much anything. this is where (someone would need to actually hold aggro after all) something like dolyak signet (mentioned to be an awful skill somewhere inbetween the posts here) actually becomes a really useful skill. unless you plan on dedicating at least 2 slots for some defensive stances, which are likely to get wildblow-n
just my thoughts.. best advice would be to actually try organize ur party before the mission/whatever u doing
I see absolutely NO reason why you wouldnt take a REAL rez like Rebirth, but would limit yourself with rez sig... a warrior has been plenty of times the only survivor in my party.. true, if you play well and watch out you wont need it, but come on, like you wouldnt mind relaxing in pve..
unless you run a warrior heavy party, i dont see a reason for 16 in weapon, most 15 or even 14 seem to be optimal. A meteor shower (guess what, the enemies actually just stay in there and soak up the dmg from it
), can pretty much outdmg you most of the time imo. and come a bunched up 30++ warden "Rape Squad", SS would severily outdamage pretty much anything. this is where (someone would need to actually hold aggro after all) something like dolyak signet (mentioned to be an awful skill somewhere inbetween the posts here) actually becomes a really useful skill. unless you plan on dedicating at least 2 slots for some defensive stances, which are likely to get wildblow-njust my thoughts.. best advice would be to actually try organize ur party before the mission/whatever u doing
Loch
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinger314
Assassins?
Assassins are front-loaded melee spikers. You get into the fray at the right time, get a dagger combo off, then get the hell out of there (usually with some sort of speed/evasion stance). That's why they get shitty armor - they aren't built to stand up front all the time autoattacking like a warrior could do.
Warriors, on the other hand, are perpetual damage machines that can withstand attacks better than anyone else because their job is to stand up front attacking all day.
Warriors, on the other hand, are perpetual damage machines that can withstand attacks better than anyone else because their job is to stand up front attacking all day.
Winstar
Hey fb2000
If I'm using a full warrior bar I go monk 2ndary for a hard res. I agree that shock isn't useful and I would rather sub it for something like watch yourself since you don't have to deal with kiting targets in the same was as you do in pvp. Dolyak is a good skill imo which I've said many times. You just don't need rediculously high points in str to use it effectively. 14-16 is a good range for your wep in pve depending on whether you need to dip into something like healing which for soloing is occasionaly necessary. If I don't need to, which is the general case, its perfectly good to 16 11 9.
Creatures don't always stand in showers, they try and leave when they can, and sometimes they showers don't hit them properly. I actually think that you can easily outdamage the number of storms an ele can cast in the course of a battle. And why not do as much damage as you possibly can while still being able to do your job as a warrior effectively?
Bottom line for me: You should simply aim to do the maximum damage you can while at the same time being able to hold aggro and survive. I find this easily admits of using 16 weapon mastery in almost every case.
If I'm using a full warrior bar I go monk 2ndary for a hard res. I agree that shock isn't useful and I would rather sub it for something like watch yourself since you don't have to deal with kiting targets in the same was as you do in pvp. Dolyak is a good skill imo which I've said many times. You just don't need rediculously high points in str to use it effectively. 14-16 is a good range for your wep in pve depending on whether you need to dip into something like healing which for soloing is occasionaly necessary. If I don't need to, which is the general case, its perfectly good to 16 11 9.
Creatures don't always stand in showers, they try and leave when they can, and sometimes they showers don't hit them properly. I actually think that you can easily outdamage the number of storms an ele can cast in the course of a battle. And why not do as much damage as you possibly can while still being able to do your job as a warrior effectively?
Bottom line for me: You should simply aim to do the maximum damage you can while at the same time being able to hold aggro and survive. I find this easily admits of using 16 weapon mastery in almost every case.
Aisius
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winstar
Allo,
I think Dolyaks can be used perfectly well with less than 15 in str. There is only a small window in which KD will occur. You simply won't be knocked down all the time. So, I don't think there is any need to pump 14 into str and thus make the other armour necessary. Again, I do agree that one can take that route and succeed in Pve, I've simply find the other more efficient. I also agree that one shouldn't say that you ought not play a stance tank. I just don't think the in general as effective as damage tank (which isn't to say that there might be certain points where a stance tank might be more useful).
I've actually been away for the entire festival and unable to play. I'd love to give that mission a whirl and see how it goes. That said, there isn't a mission in the game pre-festival that I haven't preferred damage on. Now farming is sometimes easier with stances, and the demands of the location will force you to vary the build. Troll farming is so rediculously easy and fast with a glads stance build that I stick with it. I generally find stances in Cantha worse for farming because of mixed mobs and also I find that more and more monsters pack wild blow. Basically, I prefer builds that mimic spider farming more than anything else.
Well that's a bummer you can't have a crack at the mission I refferred to. Previous to this festival event I never even ran with Dolyak or Gladiators defense. I'd always stick with my 1.5K Kurzick Glads gear with knights boot and 16 mastery. I haven't capped Evicserate yet so I use tripple chop and would only have shield stance on my bar.
For this mission though there's no way I could endure the damage without the monk having to heal me early and likely have the whole pull go to hell.
I just think in summary to where the thread is going that while damage is a neccessity to a warrior doing there job pve wise, stance tanking should not be overlooked for some missions/quests/group combinations.
-Umm yeah the main reason I never run swords is because of the spell interupt. Distrupting Chop>>Distracting Blow imo.
*** Also Warskull can you please edit your post to add that every PvE warrior should have a longbow or at least a bow. Drives me mad that a warrior can't pull a mob.
I think Dolyaks can be used perfectly well with less than 15 in str. There is only a small window in which KD will occur. You simply won't be knocked down all the time. So, I don't think there is any need to pump 14 into str and thus make the other armour necessary. Again, I do agree that one can take that route and succeed in Pve, I've simply find the other more efficient. I also agree that one shouldn't say that you ought not play a stance tank. I just don't think the in general as effective as damage tank (which isn't to say that there might be certain points where a stance tank might be more useful).
I've actually been away for the entire festival and unable to play
For this mission though there's no way I could endure the damage without the monk having to heal me early and likely have the whole pull go to hell.
I just think in summary to where the thread is going that while damage is a neccessity to a warrior doing there job pve wise, stance tanking should not be overlooked for some missions/quests/group combinations.
-Umm yeah the main reason I never run swords is because of the spell interupt. Distrupting Chop>>Distracting Blow imo.
*** Also Warskull can you please edit your post to add that every PvE warrior should have a longbow or at least a bow. Drives me mad that a warrior can't pull a mob.
Conan The Castrater
Number 1 rule: Bring a bow (preferably longbow oe equivalent range).
bitchbar player
If you see a monk down, you rez him, don't expect the second monk (if present) to rez him because then no one is healing.
So monk dead warrior rez
Good guide
Me and all other monks would love seeing everybody following this.
So monk dead warrior rez
Good guide
Me and all other monks would love seeing everybody following this.
bigwig
do people actually bring 6 stances?
the truth of the whole tank vs dmg dealer thing lies somewhere in the middle. i bring 3 defensive skills and 3 offensive skills, my attributes aren't maxed but neither are they low for either side.
You can play it either way, but if you're pugging, go defense.
the truth of the whole tank vs dmg dealer thing lies somewhere in the middle. i bring 3 defensive skills and 3 offensive skills, my attributes aren't maxed but neither are they low for either side.
You can play it either way, but if you're pugging, go defense.
Nexus Icon
The REAL secret to being a good PvE Warrior?
Know your enemy, and be flexible.
There is no "One size fits all" build out there that you can rely on 100% of the time, and neither should you have to obey players dictating builds at you.
Different enemies require different tactics, as do different goals.
Never restrict yourself to the cookie-cutter builds favoured by the majority; find a way of doing things that you enjoy the most.
Here endeth the lesson.
Know your enemy, and be flexible.
There is no "One size fits all" build out there that you can rely on 100% of the time, and neither should you have to obey players dictating builds at you.
Different enemies require different tactics, as do different goals.
Never restrict yourself to the cookie-cutter builds favoured by the majority; find a way of doing things that you enjoy the most.
Here endeth the lesson.
YunSooJin
The biggest problem I see in PvE warriors and other players ABOUT warriors is their overall mindset.
They carry over the general prejudices from other games that warriors are there to soak up damage while casters do the real work. There are some truths to this, but it is very conditional.
In the Elite Missions, Urgoz's Warren and The Deep, this is partially true. Warriors must be generally able to hold the front line and tank most of the damage. Defensive stances/dolyak sig and such are invaluable here.
On the other hand, defensive stance tank warriors are overkill for regular pve (ie anything outside of the Elite Missions, FoW, UW and the like). If a monk is unable to heal a warrior who did not over aggro, it is not the fault of the warrior, but probably the monk. I have played both classes, and I understand full well what each class is optimally capable of. Unless the monk is somehow being disabled, the warrior should be an easy target to heal, with or without defensive stances.
Ira Blinks made some very good comments on what a good warrior could do, but I feel Ira was particularly misguided with the idea that a warrior could not do all those great tanking tricks (ie clumping up the casters and drawing melee onto them as well for the aoe) as well as being high DPS.
After a lot of HoH, random pvp and gvg, I have come to understand that warriors represent the scariest DPS in the game. A good warrior can grab all the aggro and still position the monsters so that he/she can go get that monk sitting in the back and whup em good. Without further ado, this is the particular build I use ~
W/R20
16 axe
10 str
9 beast mastery
Tiger's Fury
Eviscerate
Executioners
penetrating blow
penetrating chop
disrupting chop
disrupting blow
res sig
After a quick review of my build, it is obvious to see that it is highly offensive. In cantha (and in certain places in tyria), I have noticed that sometimes the BEST defense is a great offense. When you are fighting the Stone Summit Beastmasters in Southern Shiverpeaks, watch what happens when you interrupt 2-3 giant stomps in a row.
1) Your group doesn't die from sitting on its back.
2) You don't take damage from stomp
3) you don't get interrupt from stomp
When I have TF going at full strength (9 seconds of 33% IAS and a 10 second recharge), I am able to pull enough adrenaline to - interrupt an afflicted ele from casting a 90+ damage lightning orb - interrupt another afflicted ele casting another 90+ damage lightning orb - immediately turn around and kill another caster with an adrenaline combo.
Needless to say, I have no problems at all when playing in Tyria and Cantha.
The mistaken attempt to pigeonhole warriors into a whipped little b*tch who can only sit there and take damage is a huge mistake, to the ultimate detriment of your future groups.
They carry over the general prejudices from other games that warriors are there to soak up damage while casters do the real work. There are some truths to this, but it is very conditional.
In the Elite Missions, Urgoz's Warren and The Deep, this is partially true. Warriors must be generally able to hold the front line and tank most of the damage. Defensive stances/dolyak sig and such are invaluable here.
On the other hand, defensive stance tank warriors are overkill for regular pve (ie anything outside of the Elite Missions, FoW, UW and the like). If a monk is unable to heal a warrior who did not over aggro, it is not the fault of the warrior, but probably the monk. I have played both classes, and I understand full well what each class is optimally capable of. Unless the monk is somehow being disabled, the warrior should be an easy target to heal, with or without defensive stances.
Ira Blinks made some very good comments on what a good warrior could do, but I feel Ira was particularly misguided with the idea that a warrior could not do all those great tanking tricks (ie clumping up the casters and drawing melee onto them as well for the aoe) as well as being high DPS.
After a lot of HoH, random pvp and gvg, I have come to understand that warriors represent the scariest DPS in the game. A good warrior can grab all the aggro and still position the monsters so that he/she can go get that monk sitting in the back and whup em good. Without further ado, this is the particular build I use ~
W/R20
16 axe
10 str
9 beast mastery
Tiger's Fury
Eviscerate
Executioners
penetrating blow
penetrating chop
disrupting chop
disrupting blow
res sig
After a quick review of my build, it is obvious to see that it is highly offensive. In cantha (and in certain places in tyria), I have noticed that sometimes the BEST defense is a great offense. When you are fighting the Stone Summit Beastmasters in Southern Shiverpeaks, watch what happens when you interrupt 2-3 giant stomps in a row.
1) Your group doesn't die from sitting on its back.
2) You don't take damage from stomp
3) you don't get interrupt from stomp
When I have TF going at full strength (9 seconds of 33% IAS and a 10 second recharge), I am able to pull enough adrenaline to - interrupt an afflicted ele from casting a 90+ damage lightning orb - interrupt another afflicted ele casting another 90+ damage lightning orb - immediately turn around and kill another caster with an adrenaline combo.
Needless to say, I have no problems at all when playing in Tyria and Cantha.
The mistaken attempt to pigeonhole warriors into a whipped little b*tch who can only sit there and take damage is a huge mistake, to the ultimate detriment of your future groups.
FalconDance
To all of you who have stated a warrior should not be pigeon-holed into a certain build, hats off.
Quote:
by LochQuote:
1) Put 16 points into that weapon attribute of yours
2) Play with a monk who isn't a complete tard
3) Run into groups of enemies, use Tiger's Fury or Frenzy when appropriate, and hack away until those suckers die. You will be amazed. Definitely!
The only difference I see here is that I run 15 strength and 10 weapon (I think) with 8 in Restoration for self-heal and Flesh of My Flesh (hard res). That leaves me a few token points in Tactics (don't remember why, but it had a reason). With Sentinel armor -- and I do have another full set of armor which is not Sentinel if I choose to go tactics -- and a focus rather than the usual AL16 (whoopteedoo), I am usually the one left standing. If the party starts falling, namely due to poor monking or exceptionally bad spawn/aggro beyond anyone's control, I can retreat if possible, raise the party and wreck vengeance for the insult.
Now then, I can hear protests from you more experienced warriors when I say that. Obviously I am a 'noob' since I don't 1) run a pre-approved build, 2) conform to the weapon + shield combination, 3) retreat from battle (if it becomes necessary although it is not often), or 4) run any sort of tactics. (Did I cover most of it, Ira?
That is not to say, of course, that I dismiss the use of stances, tactics, or any other tried-and-true. In fact, I plan to try many of the tips you guys have left here -- I'm always up for well-meaning advice and a way to better my characters.
Benandorf
You're kidding, right? Why would someone want to put a superior rune on a WARRIOR? And even with best weapons, 16 in weapon, ect. You don't do near as much damage. Unless you can tank well, you are taking up a spot that could be used as a better DPS (assasins are even better MELEE dps). Can warriors do alright damage? Yes, but then they can't protect the squishies in the back, and they STILL don't do as much as a good elementalist or assasin.
And you say tanks are crap? I have yet to die before the rest of the party with my tank. Over 1000 HP and +60 armor does not "Suck" considering I can tank sorrows furnace with very minimal heals.
And you say tanks are crap? I have yet to die before the rest of the party with my tank. Over 1000 HP and +60 armor does not "Suck" considering I can tank sorrows furnace with very minimal heals.
Tingi
Supperior rune on a warrior is a must for high DPS. HOWEVER, i NEVER hav 16 (axe) mastery, i always put it down to 15, u wont notice the difference nad ul hav a lot more points to spend on another attribute. Maybe im jst thinking like a PvP'er (cuz i am) but that makes a lot of sence.
In PvE im always a warrior/monk jst because of a hard rez. In PvP im w/e usually. W/N wen using a hammer.
My PvE Builds is:
15 Axe (headpiece + sup rune)
11 Tactics (minor rune)
9 Healing
rest strength i think about 5 (minor rune)
Eviscerate
Penetrating Blow (I use axe rake in PvP instead of this)
Exe Strike
Frenzy/To The Limit
Bonetti's/Distrupting Chop Or Blow
Healing Sig
Vigorous Spirit
Rez Chant
In PvE im always a warrior/monk jst because of a hard rez. In PvP im w/e usually. W/N wen using a hammer.
My PvE Builds is:
15 Axe (headpiece + sup rune)
11 Tactics (minor rune)
9 Healing
rest strength i think about 5 (minor rune)
Eviscerate
Penetrating Blow (I use axe rake in PvP instead of this)
Exe Strike
Frenzy/To The Limit
Bonetti's/Distrupting Chop Or Blow
Healing Sig
Vigorous Spirit
Rez Chant
Akhilleus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warskull
As for the monk energy supply thing, playing both a warrior and a monk this depends on the player. Monks don't like to hear it, but good monks don't need to rest too often between battles. I know this because I have played monk. Thus as a warrior I will keep agroing and pushing through each group systematically until you let me know that you need a breather. However, unlike many PvE warriors if I agro something I kill it in a timely manner. If I agro two groups and we are under high pressure I start reducing enemy numbers to make things more manageable for the monks. This is one of the reasons why tanks suck. All they can do is sit there and take it. A well built warrior can help the monks by killing stuff.
Trust me, with the mechanics of warriors it would probably benefit you to just stick at 13 stength and go 16 sword. Each point in sword gives you a 1.5% chance to land a critical hit. Those buggers hurt. Also from my experience in warrior most of the stength skills aren't strong when high specced. In fact looking over the strength line I can't imagine what you are trying to run.
though i tend to deviate a bit with my warriors.
in pvp ill run a 16 sword/axe and 13 str build, since a warrior should be more single-focused (that focus being; to kill shit).
in pve the general focus is the same (that focus being; to kill shit), but the method in which you do it needs to be different, so i run a 15 sword 11 tac/11 str build.
in pvp if a warrior is getting hammered (for whatever reason) all they have to do is retreat to the rear-line, and let the monks heal them up. in pve retreating to the rear line while you have the aggro focus of enemies can be suicidal, as the foes will tend to break aggro and target the monks. so...you need some defensive skills (no, that doesnt mean 3 stances, dolyak signet, watch yourself and obsidian flesh; we're talking 1-2 at most).
some warriors are good enough to know how not to f-up and dont need much in the way of defense but maybee 1 skill for the occasional underestimation of the foe's strength. others need a slew of defensive skills in order to keep themselves alive, detracting from their ability as a damage-dealer...and so call themselves "tanks". this is why i will never answer the call of "GLF tank for mission" because any warrior who is there purely for defense...should not be there to begin with.
anywho.
im the kind of person who generally makes their own builds for whatever situation; and boy do i love versatility. for pve the base warrior build i use is:
15 sword
11 str
11 tactics
flurry
quivering blade
final thrust
galrath slash
silverwing slash
endure pain
healing signet
res sig/rebirth (depending on if i feel like being a wammo or not
)it works pretty darn well for being able to dish out the pain, and take a hit too. with 4 attack skills you have considerable damage output, and between heal sig and endure pain you have a decent level of surviveability. the healing signet is self-explanatory, but, sometimes you just cant afford to use it, and so for immidiate emergency health-gain (in case the monk is low on energy or you get spiked or whatnot), you have endure pain, which (for the most part) will keep you alive long enough for the monk to catch up. at the same time your swordsmanship is high enough to give you a nice bonus to your damage skills (of which you have no shortage of with this build
) which should allow you to drop targets pretty quickly. your strength at lvl 11 will give you a base 11% AP to attack skills...which is pretty nice...increasing your damage even further (exponentially so since half your skillbar is pure ass-kicking-damage). its a pretty solid all-purpose pve build. and since you have 4 pure-dmg attack skills if you wis you can sub some out. depending on where you are in the game taking 2 of them out and adding something like sever artery+gashcan be useful, or adding savage-slash+plague touch (for the condition-heavy levels, or if you're going with a pug monk who you think may not be the best condition remover in the world), or maybee subbing out for watch yourself and a sig cap. in other words, you dont NEED the 4 attack skills...but often they are nice to have.and yeah...as a warrior i can soemtimes seem a tad leeroy jenkins to the monks, but not suicidally slow. i expect (usually falsely) that the monk in the group can monk as well as the monks im used to (including myself). as you pointed out good monks hardly (if ever) need to stop&rest for energy. a good monk knows when to use what skills with whatever energy cost, and more importantly when NOT to use skills with whatever energy cost (skill-based energy management FTW).
so, as a warrior will i stop to give monks a break unless they ask for it? no. but will i aggro enough groups to submerge our party in a deluge of our own organs? no. the latter seems to be something most warriors (99.999%) cant seem to learn.
oh, and benandorf, no assassins do not have higher DPS than warriors.
higher spike-damage? MAYBEE (though a warrior with a fully charged set of adrenal attack skills with a abse 13% skill-based AP can deal out a world of hurt), but higher dps? absolutly not. and assassins (unlike warriors) almost always have to retreat after unleashing their death-blows, warriors can kill, and still remain in the thick of things. making them (in my opinion along with monks) one of the 2 absolutly 100% essential classes in the game to really accomplish anything substantial.
Winstar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benandorf
You're kidding, right? Why would someone want to put a superior rune on a WARRIOR? And even with best weapons, 16 in weapon, ect. You don't do near as much damage. Unless you can tank well, you are taking up a spot that could be used as a better DPS (assasins are even better MELEE dps). Can warriors do alright damage? Yes, but then they can't protect the squishies in the back, and they STILL don't do as much as a good elementalist or assasin.
And you say tanks are crap? I have yet to die before the rest of the party with my tank. Over 1000 HP and +60 armor does not "Suck" considering I can tank sorrows furnace with very minimal heals. Hey Benandorf,
I'm afraid this is largely false for reasons discussed throughout this thread.
1) You want a sup rune so you can get the most out of your weapon. This might not always mean 16, but generally you want to maximize damage while maintaining functionality in warrior roles.
2) I believe warriors do have the highest dps in the game
3) As a follow up to 1, warriors can still do their job of protecting soft targets while having a high damage output. Its a mistake to think that the pve tanking role generally requires 6 defensive/healing skills and a couple crap attacks. Dolyaks(depending on where, but is not always the best choice)/watchyourself/healing sig or something like that is more than enough in most given missions. Add a res sig and you have 4 slots dedicated to attacking. In fact you can probably safely run watch yourself and heal sig with 5 dedicated to attacking.
4) Tanks aren't necessaryily crap, but they are not the ideal warrior in many cases. When your wepon is set low you and your skill bar is filled with defence you aren't helping much in the way of dropping things and it makes a HUGE difference in efficiency and speed of a mission to have a warrior who does. The longer the battle stretches out the greater the strain on everyones resources and generally, its nice to get done quickly - For sanity in Tyria and in Cantha the bonus is made or failed on the basis of time. For farming there are cases where a more tank directed build is useful, but still not optimal as far as I can tell from my experience. The ability to deal damage effectively is should rarely be chucked out the window. Its always a matter of maxing out damage while maintaining functionality in the mission/farming area in question.
cheers
And you say tanks are crap? I have yet to die before the rest of the party with my tank. Over 1000 HP and +60 armor does not "Suck" considering I can tank sorrows furnace with very minimal heals. Hey Benandorf,
I'm afraid this is largely false for reasons discussed throughout this thread.
1) You want a sup rune so you can get the most out of your weapon. This might not always mean 16, but generally you want to maximize damage while maintaining functionality in warrior roles.
2) I believe warriors do have the highest dps in the game
3) As a follow up to 1, warriors can still do their job of protecting soft targets while having a high damage output. Its a mistake to think that the pve tanking role generally requires 6 defensive/healing skills and a couple crap attacks. Dolyaks(depending on where, but is not always the best choice)/watchyourself/healing sig or something like that is more than enough in most given missions. Add a res sig and you have 4 slots dedicated to attacking. In fact you can probably safely run watch yourself and heal sig with 5 dedicated to attacking.
4) Tanks aren't necessaryily crap, but they are not the ideal warrior in many cases. When your wepon is set low you and your skill bar is filled with defence you aren't helping much in the way of dropping things and it makes a HUGE difference in efficiency and speed of a mission to have a warrior who does. The longer the battle stretches out the greater the strain on everyones resources and generally, its nice to get done quickly - For sanity in Tyria and in Cantha the bonus is made or failed on the basis of time. For farming there are cases where a more tank directed build is useful, but still not optimal as far as I can tell from my experience. The ability to deal damage effectively is should rarely be chucked out the window. Its always a matter of maxing out damage while maintaining functionality in the mission/farming area in question.
cheers
dansamy
There are a whole lot of people in this thread spouting off complete falsehoods. I can tell you guys haven't done the math. The highest unadulterated DPS in this game comes from a warrior. To even come close to matching it, an elementalist needs faster recharges and a nearly infinite energy pool, which we know isnt' going to happen anytime soon. Ensign posted a really long analysis of elemental damage output compared to a warrior's standard, weapon-swinging damage output. Use search and find it. I won't do your work for you. The point is that warriors have the highest sustainable DPS output.
Quote:
Monks don't like to hear it, but good monks don't need to rest too often between battles.
For god's sake monks, energy management and kiting are not just PvP skills, mmmkay? If you get aggro, frickin move! If you are taking a monk elite, it should be something like Word, etc. Cheap, big heal. Otherwise, please consider Mantra of Recall or Energy Drain. Take Signet of Devotion. It's great for topping off a player's health and it's free. Yes, it's slow. It's not your clutch heal, ok? Recognize it for what it is and use it accordingly.
Quote:
ak347
Mentioned above, but worth re-iterating:
There are two levels of PVE:
1) General storyline PVE - essentially requires minimal coordination and damage output to succeed. Proof: you can use henchies to complete nearly all aspects of this PVE domain. At this point, a warrior can max out his damage output because it speeds up the rate at which he can plow through the generally weak-average strength mobs. Defense required is minimal-moderate (raisu palace, ring of fire islands are essentially the only places where defense should be increased rather significantly, and arguably these places shouldn't be placed in this level of PVE).
2) High Level PVE: Urgo's Warren, the Deep, FoW, UW, RoF, Raisu Palace - all have mixed high level mobs outputting some serious hurt, where casters can be ganked in ~2 hits (or spiked in ~1 second), warrior damage output is seriously depleted by high armor/HUGE mobs (aka Urgo's Warren), and minimal defense on even a warrior is tantamount to suicide.
For the first areas (Everything up to endgame), anything goes. Apart from the odd AI spike that wipes the party (ie Oni, dredge), it's very straightforward and henchable. For the latter, it's probably a good idea to back dolyak (yes it cripples movement, but if you aggro properly, your casters will be safe and you won't need to move), watch yourself, shields up, endure pain/elite endure pain (can't remember the name). Stances are generally a bad idea in these areas because dredge/berserkers strip stances (wild blow), and high level casters degen/spike you right through the stance (conjure nightmare, starburst, spectral agony, etc...).
Other Points: High level necromancers and mesmers love warrior hate at high levels, so attacking is either crippled or hurts you and the team (enfeeble, spiteful spirit, empathy, shadow of fear, etc...)
If you can control the aggro of several groups at once, your piddly damage to a single foe (or multiple foes after hb, cyclone axe, or triple chop recharges) is nothing on the various aoe damage outputted by necros, eles, rangers, and even smiters (e.g. SoJ on the warrior). With the warrior in the middle of the pack however, he can perform one other crucial function:
When the warrior runs in to collect aggro, it is best to go right to the caster (preferably monk) so that when the warrior mobs follow, everything will be in range for the caster's aoe spells. With the warrior right next to key casters, he can use assorted interruptions to ensure that the casters don't get off spells. Bring along 2-3 interrupts: distracting blow (aoe interrupt is amazing), disrupting chow, and skull crack come to mind, and you become not only an invaluable tank, but a dedicated interrupter. Can you say 2 for 1 deal?
There are two levels of PVE:
1) General storyline PVE - essentially requires minimal coordination and damage output to succeed. Proof: you can use henchies to complete nearly all aspects of this PVE domain. At this point, a warrior can max out his damage output because it speeds up the rate at which he can plow through the generally weak-average strength mobs. Defense required is minimal-moderate (raisu palace, ring of fire islands are essentially the only places where defense should be increased rather significantly, and arguably these places shouldn't be placed in this level of PVE).
2) High Level PVE: Urgo's Warren, the Deep, FoW, UW, RoF, Raisu Palace - all have mixed high level mobs outputting some serious hurt, where casters can be ganked in ~2 hits (or spiked in ~1 second), warrior damage output is seriously depleted by high armor/HUGE mobs (aka Urgo's Warren), and minimal defense on even a warrior is tantamount to suicide.
For the first areas (Everything up to endgame), anything goes. Apart from the odd AI spike that wipes the party (ie Oni, dredge), it's very straightforward and henchable. For the latter, it's probably a good idea to back dolyak (yes it cripples movement, but if you aggro properly, your casters will be safe and you won't need to move), watch yourself, shields up, endure pain/elite endure pain (can't remember the name). Stances are generally a bad idea in these areas because dredge/berserkers strip stances (wild blow), and high level casters degen/spike you right through the stance (conjure nightmare, starburst, spectral agony, etc...).
Other Points: High level necromancers and mesmers love warrior hate at high levels, so attacking is either crippled or hurts you and the team (enfeeble, spiteful spirit, empathy, shadow of fear, etc...)
If you can control the aggro of several groups at once, your piddly damage to a single foe (or multiple foes after hb, cyclone axe, or triple chop recharges) is nothing on the various aoe damage outputted by necros, eles, rangers, and even smiters (e.g. SoJ on the warrior). With the warrior in the middle of the pack however, he can perform one other crucial function:
When the warrior runs in to collect aggro, it is best to go right to the caster (preferably monk) so that when the warrior mobs follow, everything will be in range for the caster's aoe spells. With the warrior right next to key casters, he can use assorted interruptions to ensure that the casters don't get off spells. Bring along 2-3 interrupts: distracting blow (aoe interrupt is amazing), disrupting chow, and skull crack come to mind, and you become not only an invaluable tank, but a dedicated interrupter. Can you say 2 for 1 deal?
Akhilleus
Quote:
Originally Posted by dansamy
Take Signet of Devotion. It's great for topping off a player's health and it's free. Yes, it's slow. It's not your clutch heal, ok? Recognize it for what it is and use it accordingly.
finally SoD is getting some love in the GW universe.
from the first moment SoD landed on my monk's skillbar, it has not come off.
used propperly it is easily one of the best monk skills in the game (imo easily better for energy management than MoR or whatnot).
monks have plenty of massive fast-cast-time uber-heals, of these there are no shortage. but, theres only 1 truly useful no-energy heal (and its based off divine, which, makes it useful for both prot and heal monks (w00t).
from the first moment SoD landed on my monk's skillbar, it has not come off.
used propperly it is easily one of the best monk skills in the game (imo easily better for energy management than MoR or whatnot).
monks have plenty of massive fast-cast-time uber-heals, of these there are no shortage. but, theres only 1 truly useful no-energy heal (and its based off divine, which, makes it useful for both prot and heal monks (w00t).
Guildmaster Cain
The warriors biggest problem is that in contrary to other classes (Sin left out of equation), he has to be near the enemy to hurt him. Most people dont realize that when they start charging at an enemy, they also move their aggro-circle / bubble (for those of who do not know: the whitish circle around the green dot (you) on the radar), closer to another group of enemies.
In stead of charging at an enemy like an computer-controlled henchmen, try this tactic: Aggro 1 group of enemies, but dont attack them. Wait till the enemy melee fighters come close and bodyblock them, so that they cant hurt the fragile rear of your party. Always watch your aggro circle, that is the most important thing for new PvE warriors.
Usually people compliment me for being a great tank, then I tell them that I only have 1 or 2 tanking skills. It is all about being at the right spot, not about skills.
In stead of charging at an enemy like an computer-controlled henchmen, try this tactic: Aggro 1 group of enemies, but dont attack them. Wait till the enemy melee fighters come close and bodyblock them, so that they cant hurt the fragile rear of your party. Always watch your aggro circle, that is the most important thing for new PvE warriors.
Usually people compliment me for being a great tank, then I tell them that I only have 1 or 2 tanking skills. It is all about being at the right spot, not about skills.
Winstar
Nice point Guildmaster
Ak347,
Agree generally, but I don't think ring of fire should be considered as any different. You can roll all of them with a high damage setup and even solo large chunks of the missions. I've also sucessfully done the Elite mission in House Zu and in fact found the high damage pretty much invaluble. Suicide machines will pretty much wipe you regardless, everything else (dredge wolves etc) can be dealt with using 3 defense skills and the rest in damage very nicely.
Ak347,
Agree generally, but I don't think ring of fire should be considered as any different. You can roll all of them with a high damage setup and even solo large chunks of the missions. I've also sucessfully done the Elite mission in House Zu and in fact found the high damage pretty much invaluble. Suicide machines will pretty much wipe you regardless, everything else (dredge wolves etc) can be dealt with using 3 defense skills and the rest in damage very nicely.
dansamy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akhilleus
finally SoD is getting some love in the GW universe.
from the first moment SoD landed on my monk's skillbar, it has not come off.
used propperly it is easily one of the best monk skills in the game (imo easily better for energy management than MoR or whatnot).
monks have plenty of massive fast-cast-time uber-heals, of these there are no shortage. but, theres only 1 truly useful no-energy heal (and its based off divine, which, makes it useful for both prot and heal monks (w00t). I tried to make Signet of Rejuvenation useful too, but it's extra healing is conditional. For a long time (prior to capping WoH and MoR on my new Canthan-born monk), SoD was my only energy management skill.
from the first moment SoD landed on my monk's skillbar, it has not come off.
used propperly it is easily one of the best monk skills in the game (imo easily better for energy management than MoR or whatnot).
monks have plenty of massive fast-cast-time uber-heals, of these there are no shortage. but, theres only 1 truly useful no-energy heal (and its based off divine, which, makes it useful for both prot and heal monks (w00t). I tried to make Signet of Rejuvenation useful too, but it's extra healing is conditional. For a long time (prior to capping WoH and MoR on my new Canthan-born monk), SoD was my only energy management skill.
Skuld
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benandorf
You're kidding, right? Why would someone want to put a superior rune on a WARRIOR? And even with best weapons, 16 in weapon, ect. You don't do near as much damage. Unless you can tank well, you are taking up a spot that could be used as a better DPS (assasins are even better MELEE dps). Can warriors do alright damage? Yes, but then they can't protect the squishies in the back, and they STILL don't do as much as a good elementalist or assasin.
And you say tanks are crap? I have yet to die before the rest of the party with my tank. Over 1000 HP and +60 armor does not "Suck" considering I can tank sorrows furnace with very minimal heals. take these skills: devastating hammer, crushing blow, fierce blow into RA and play a few rounds with 14 hammer, and 16 hammer, and compare. it does make a difference
EDIT: you say ele or assassin has more damage? absolutely no way! assassins can kill something fast, btu then they must rest and recharge, and reselect a target, this does not make for more damage by any means. Eles cannot outdamage and axe war, axe war can deal 300-400 damage per 8-12 second combo and never ever need to take a break, no way an ele can do that
And you say tanks are crap? I have yet to die before the rest of the party with my tank. Over 1000 HP and +60 armor does not "Suck" considering I can tank sorrows furnace with very minimal heals. take these skills: devastating hammer, crushing blow, fierce blow into RA and play a few rounds with 14 hammer, and 16 hammer, and compare. it does make a difference
EDIT: you say ele or assassin has more damage? absolutely no way! assassins can kill something fast, btu then they must rest and recharge, and reselect a target, this does not make for more damage by any means. Eles cannot outdamage and axe war, axe war can deal 300-400 damage per 8-12 second combo and never ever need to take a break, no way an ele can do that
Duriel
Whe i posted very early in this thread, when i say PvE, i say high lvl PvE, low level PvE can be done with anything, and i do it with henchies, anyclass, anybuild, anywhere.
When on Elite missions and stuff... A warrior is there for keeping the Agro off the casters! NOT TO DEAL DAMAGE. I Know Warriors are the highest damage in the game. The maths on that is over at iq's forum. I play PvP too. But lets do a bit of math here.
You agro a group. Lets say you are smart, ran ahead of your group, have survival skills, so you got the optimal agro (your next to the casters, and the melee mobs are attacking you). Dont you see its irrelevant what you attack? Even if you can kill one mob before 2 Meteorshowers/2 SS's finish with THE GROUP, it will make no difference! It will be the MSs and SSs finishing the groups, and FASTER than you would EVER do it, with 8 attack skills and 16 on weapon mastery.
The warrior is the best DPs in the game cause ITS RELIABLE! Doesnt need evergy, etc. But if you are in PvE, any good nuker/SS necro/Wathever, shouldn't have energy problems, and should be RELIABLE DAMAGE (cause the mobs stay on MS, Attack with SS, etc...)
If you wanna do the maths go ahead... Lets say you are tanking 4 mobs. A meteor shower is on them. Lets say they get hit by 4 Meteors, doing 60 damage each. That is 4x60x4= 960 damage, every 30 seconds. But your Ele is a double meteor shower, right? So its 1920 damage every 30 seconds. If you can deal 60+ damage every second to an average Lvl 28 mob, please let me know. Oh, did i Say Meteor shower knocks them down? Reducing damage your party takes?
Come on guys. The difference is you can relly on your warriors everywhere. And you can only relly on nukers in PvE, cause the enemy wont stand in the MS, wont attack with SS, etc...
If i can keep myself alive tanking ~20 mobs lvl 28 in an elite mission, im much more usefull than dying halfway, while i try and attack.
When on Elite missions and stuff... A warrior is there for keeping the Agro off the casters! NOT TO DEAL DAMAGE. I Know Warriors are the highest damage in the game. The maths on that is over at iq's forum. I play PvP too. But lets do a bit of math here.
You agro a group. Lets say you are smart, ran ahead of your group, have survival skills, so you got the optimal agro (your next to the casters, and the melee mobs are attacking you). Dont you see its irrelevant what you attack? Even if you can kill one mob before 2 Meteorshowers/2 SS's finish with THE GROUP, it will make no difference! It will be the MSs and SSs finishing the groups, and FASTER than you would EVER do it, with 8 attack skills and 16 on weapon mastery.
The warrior is the best DPs in the game cause ITS RELIABLE! Doesnt need evergy, etc. But if you are in PvE, any good nuker/SS necro/Wathever, shouldn't have energy problems, and should be RELIABLE DAMAGE (cause the mobs stay on MS, Attack with SS, etc...)
If you wanna do the maths go ahead... Lets say you are tanking 4 mobs. A meteor shower is on them. Lets say they get hit by 4 Meteors, doing 60 damage each. That is 4x60x4= 960 damage, every 30 seconds. But your Ele is a double meteor shower, right? So its 1920 damage every 30 seconds. If you can deal 60+ damage every second to an average Lvl 28 mob, please let me know. Oh, did i Say Meteor shower knocks them down? Reducing damage your party takes?
Come on guys. The difference is you can relly on your warriors everywhere. And you can only relly on nukers in PvE, cause the enemy wont stand in the MS, wont attack with SS, etc...
If i can keep myself alive tanking ~20 mobs lvl 28 in an elite mission, im much more usefull than dying halfway, while i try and attack.
SnipiousMax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duriel
The warrior is the best DPs in the game cause ITS RELIABLE!
I think that should read... "The Warrior has the best DPS in the game and it's reliable."
kryshnysh
Quote:
Originally Posted by dansamy
Winstar
"If i can keep myself alive tanking ~20 mobs lvl 28 in an elite mission, im much more usefull than dying halfway, while i try and attack."
Duriel,
The error is in thinking that you can't have both damage and surviability. The assumption is that
P1 - I can tank or I can attack
P2 - If I tank I'll live and be able to protect my party though I won't be able to deal damage
P3 - If I attack I'll deal some damage but I'll die and I can't protect my party
P4 - its better to live protect your party and deal less damage
C - therefore I shouldn't attack
The problem with this is that P3 is false. You can build for damage and still maintain aggro/block enemies etc while staying alive. Even in House Zu Elite. Building for damage doesn't mean ignoring defence altogether it simply means maxing your ability to do damage while still maintaing enough defence to perform the other roles of a warrior. Enough Defence is rarely more than a few skills on your bar and you should always be able to keep 14-16 in your weapon. Your monk is there to provide some healing after all. All you need to do is be tough enough to maintain yourself in a pinch, and reduce the damage you are taking enough so that your monk has an easy time keeping you and the rest of your party up.
Duriel,
The error is in thinking that you can't have both damage and surviability. The assumption is that
P1 - I can tank or I can attack
P2 - If I tank I'll live and be able to protect my party though I won't be able to deal damage
P3 - If I attack I'll deal some damage but I'll die and I can't protect my party
P4 - its better to live protect your party and deal less damage
C - therefore I shouldn't attack
The problem with this is that P3 is false. You can build for damage and still maintain aggro/block enemies etc while staying alive. Even in House Zu Elite. Building for damage doesn't mean ignoring defence altogether it simply means maxing your ability to do damage while still maintaing enough defence to perform the other roles of a warrior. Enough Defence is rarely more than a few skills on your bar and you should always be able to keep 14-16 in your weapon. Your monk is there to provide some healing after all. All you need to do is be tough enough to maintain yourself in a pinch, and reduce the damage you are taking enough so that your monk has an easy time keeping you and the rest of your party up.
Ristaron
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senator Tom
6. Agro one group at a time, and only agro when everyone is ready, NOT when everyone is a minimap behind you.
I have to laugh... this coming from the guy with Prince Rurik himself as his avatar.
Beat_Go_Stick
There is one and only one step to being a "decent" PvE warrior: USE YOUR BRAIN! Any Warrior who pays attention to where his team is, when his team needs to rest, and doesn't train his aggro back to the caster line is a decent Warrior, imo. I'd wager I could empty my skill bar of all skills except a Res Sig, put on Dreadnaught's Armor, enter almost any mission with a decent PuG, and nobody would really notice that I never used a skill (I say this because I played a Ranger through Proph.
Now being an exceptional PvE Warrior is a whole other matter. It should in no way focus as much on the skills you bring as the skill you bring. Knowledge makes a Warrior exceptional in PvE much more than what's on their bar. Mind you, the skill bar matters but not nearly as much as the mind behind it.
1. Outwit the monster AI - Knowing the AI is the key to controlling aggro and predicting enemy behavior. Odds are someone in your group will bring firestorm and try to convince you it rocks but at least it won't be you who is the weak link of your team.
2. Learn to body block - Sometimes all it takes is 2 knowledgable Warriors to make a blockade in the right spot that monsters will never pass. This makes everyone happy and the jobs of all your party members that much easier.
3. Do not seek out the enemy Healers - DO. NOT. SEEK. THE TREASURE! This is not your job. I've played with so many Warriors who "Blitz" every mob to get the healers first. This is wrong! Your job is to keep the enemy from rushing your casters. Sure, you deal a lot of damage, so keep their healers busy while your Assassin/Ranger/Mesmer/Necromancer pick off the softies in the back with ranged attacks and teleportation. I've also played with many groups who critique my abilities for not going after the healers...my response to that is usually 'Ok...' and to grant their wish only to watch them get assaulted by the enemy Warriors and Assassins. After that, they usually shut up about how I play.
4. Listen to your casters - They are your spine. If they need to recharge, cool your jets and chill for a bit.
5. Balance your skills - The general rule (taught to me long long ago by don't feel no pain when I first started reading these boards) for solo farming is an obvious one but one you don't really think of until it's poointed out. Life gained + damage prevented > damage taken. You don't need to follow that rule on your own when you have a party behind you. There are too many viable PvE builds to even begin listing them or methods to determine whether or not a build is viable...I'll just say I usually carry an interrupt of some form, deep wound capability, at least one skill that will help prevent some damage, and some way to either remove blindness or something to keep me from being a useless sack of muscle while I'm blind. I never leave a town without a Res on my bar.
6. Ressurrection - Needless to say, a Res Sig is essential. I've said it before and I'll likely say it again and again: There is no skill in this game that outshines a teammate with 7 skills and a Res on their bar. Now, many people will say bring Rebirth if you can and I won't argue that. I've also found that if you have a reliable teammate who is not afraid to flee the battle and has Rebirth on their bar, you should bring a signet instead and use it DURING COMBAT so your team will stay at full power as much as possible. It doesn't help anything to have a team with 8 copies of Rebirth. Look at your teams secondary classes and ask if anyone else has Rebirth. If they do, sacrifice yourself to distract the enemy and save that person without hesitation when it looks like your party is going to wipe.
There's more, of course. There's always more. But the main point is that teaching people to be a good PvE warrior shouldn't be about what skills they use but rather about what a good Warrior does.
Now being an exceptional PvE Warrior is a whole other matter. It should in no way focus as much on the skills you bring as the skill you bring. Knowledge makes a Warrior exceptional in PvE much more than what's on their bar. Mind you, the skill bar matters but not nearly as much as the mind behind it.
1. Outwit the monster AI - Knowing the AI is the key to controlling aggro and predicting enemy behavior. Odds are someone in your group will bring firestorm and try to convince you it rocks but at least it won't be you who is the weak link of your team.
2. Learn to body block - Sometimes all it takes is 2 knowledgable Warriors to make a blockade in the right spot that monsters will never pass. This makes everyone happy and the jobs of all your party members that much easier.
3. Do not seek out the enemy Healers - DO. NOT. SEEK. THE TREASURE! This is not your job. I've played with so many Warriors who "Blitz" every mob to get the healers first. This is wrong! Your job is to keep the enemy from rushing your casters. Sure, you deal a lot of damage, so keep their healers busy while your Assassin/Ranger/Mesmer/Necromancer pick off the softies in the back with ranged attacks and teleportation. I've also played with many groups who critique my abilities for not going after the healers...my response to that is usually 'Ok...' and to grant their wish only to watch them get assaulted by the enemy Warriors and Assassins. After that, they usually shut up about how I play.
4. Listen to your casters - They are your spine. If they need to recharge, cool your jets and chill for a bit.
5. Balance your skills - The general rule (taught to me long long ago by don't feel no pain when I first started reading these boards) for solo farming is an obvious one but one you don't really think of until it's poointed out. Life gained + damage prevented > damage taken. You don't need to follow that rule on your own when you have a party behind you. There are too many viable PvE builds to even begin listing them or methods to determine whether or not a build is viable...I'll just say I usually carry an interrupt of some form, deep wound capability, at least one skill that will help prevent some damage, and some way to either remove blindness or something to keep me from being a useless sack of muscle while I'm blind. I never leave a town without a Res on my bar.
6. Ressurrection - Needless to say, a Res Sig is essential. I've said it before and I'll likely say it again and again: There is no skill in this game that outshines a teammate with 7 skills and a Res on their bar. Now, many people will say bring Rebirth if you can and I won't argue that. I've also found that if you have a reliable teammate who is not afraid to flee the battle and has Rebirth on their bar, you should bring a signet instead and use it DURING COMBAT so your team will stay at full power as much as possible. It doesn't help anything to have a team with 8 copies of Rebirth. Look at your teams secondary classes and ask if anyone else has Rebirth. If they do, sacrifice yourself to distract the enemy and save that person without hesitation when it looks like your party is going to wipe.
There's more, of course. There's always more. But the main point is that teaching people to be a good PvE warrior shouldn't be about what skills they use but rather about what a good Warrior does.
Kern Wolf
You can have a group of 20 warriors, and it would be pretty reasonable to assume that those warriors will not fight the same way. That doesn't mean that 1 person is playing the role correctly, and the other 19 don't have a clue; it's a matter of personal style and preference.
The above OP lists some points that warriors could use as a general guideline (especially the part about bringing a res sig; to me that's a rule, not a guideline!) It's how people go about achieving those points where you will see some variety--in skills chosen, in armor, and in what they experienced doing missions/quests. I don't think a lot of people take this into account; if you've formed a PUG for a mission, or quest, or even farming, and you've got 2 warriors in your PUG, you're making a mistake thinking that they'll fight, or tank, exactly the same way.
You want to suggest skills, or builds for them, fine...SUGGEST, don't demand or order them. Any person who's gone through most of the game as a warrior has a very good idea what works for them. And, for all the warriors out there, take the time to know something about the area you're about to enter--what enemies you face, how they can hurt you, and how you can hurt them. I wouldn't think about trying a mission without having SOME idea about what I'd be up against (that's what guildwiki is for..lol). Despite what a lot of people say, don't be afraid to look at your 2nd profession, and bring some of those secondary profession skills with you. This doesn't mean that you should bring Meteor Shower if you're a W/Ele; if you feel like doing that, do it with a hench group, not people (believe me, they would have a good reason to be pissed at you). But I'm willing to bet that there are plenty of skills you CAN bring--just do a little bit of reading, and test them out (again, with henches, not people).
For all the people who have ideas about how and what warriors SHOULD do...please remember, there are people behind the character, like you, who are playing their characters for the fun of it (and that can be said for EVERY character, and person, in this game). A little conversation before your PUG heads out can clear up a lot of misunderstandings, and misgivings. Don't be afraid to try something new every now and then (not ALL the time, just every now and then). You might be pleasantly surprised.
P.S. I like seeking treasure (LOL)...in chests, anyway..
The above OP lists some points that warriors could use as a general guideline (especially the part about bringing a res sig; to me that's a rule, not a guideline!) It's how people go about achieving those points where you will see some variety--in skills chosen, in armor, and in what they experienced doing missions/quests. I don't think a lot of people take this into account; if you've formed a PUG for a mission, or quest, or even farming, and you've got 2 warriors in your PUG, you're making a mistake thinking that they'll fight, or tank, exactly the same way.
You want to suggest skills, or builds for them, fine...SUGGEST, don't demand or order them. Any person who's gone through most of the game as a warrior has a very good idea what works for them. And, for all the warriors out there, take the time to know something about the area you're about to enter--what enemies you face, how they can hurt you, and how you can hurt them. I wouldn't think about trying a mission without having SOME idea about what I'd be up against (that's what guildwiki is for..lol). Despite what a lot of people say, don't be afraid to look at your 2nd profession, and bring some of those secondary profession skills with you. This doesn't mean that you should bring Meteor Shower if you're a W/Ele; if you feel like doing that, do it with a hench group, not people (believe me, they would have a good reason to be pissed at you). But I'm willing to bet that there are plenty of skills you CAN bring--just do a little bit of reading, and test them out (again, with henches, not people).
For all the people who have ideas about how and what warriors SHOULD do...please remember, there are people behind the character, like you, who are playing their characters for the fun of it (and that can be said for EVERY character, and person, in this game). A little conversation before your PUG heads out can clear up a lot of misunderstandings, and misgivings. Don't be afraid to try something new every now and then (not ALL the time, just every now and then). You might be pleasantly surprised.
P.S. I like seeking treasure (LOL)...in chests, anyway..