New Classes Lack the Versatility of Older Classes

As I was playing the other day, and looking at the pvp character creation screne for ideas of new builds, I realized this:

The new classes in factions, namely, the assassin and the ritualist, lack the overall compatibility with other secondaries that the prophecies classes had.

Let me illustrate the advantages of the older primary attributes with a couple examples:

Example 1: Ranger (Expertise). The global reduction in non-spell skill costs for rangers allowed them to venture beyond their own skills and use others such as warrior skills, necro touch skills, and quite a few others.

Example 2: Mesmer (fast casting). This primary allowed for many spikes to be carries out much faster than if the primary class were used alone. Also, this class's energy management skills are surpassed by none and it is therefore a great secondary for any caster (and dont forget echo)

Examples also exist of great combos utilizing soul reaping, energy storage, etc.

Now, moving on to the factions characters:

The Assassin's primary attribute, critical strikes, seem to be quite useful to start. However, the only effective build i've seen using this is the "critical barrager" Also, the low max damage on daggers makes a critical hit from them about the same as a normal hit from most other weapons. I will acquiesce that the skill Aura of Displacement has incredible value as a movement skill, but due to the ANet nerf of shadowstepping, its potential has also significantly decreased.

Now, I move to the weakest primary attribute, spawning power. While a primary ritualist using spirits gets quite a bit of utility from it, this attribute is quite useless if combined with any other secondary class. Hence, the ritualist can get very little by using any secondary skills. Initially, at the beginning of factions, the idea of the spawning power MM came about, but due to the lack of runes, the ritualist's minions are still weaker than those of a necromancer.
As a secondary, ritualist has very little to offer. The weak weapon buffs are not really worth the investment.


Please, feel free to share your thoughts on this topic, etc.

I agree on the point that the new classes dont really fit with any secondary and i agree on the assassin and ritualist thing, but:

You sayd that critical strikes is not even good for daggers because of the low damage but that is wrong. Dealing a critical strike might deal just as much damaeg as a normal hit from a sword, but the whole point is that the daggers are nearly double as fast. That means that if skilled right the assassin can male every 2nd or 3d hit a critical one meaning that in the time that a sword deals his damage, the dagger deals double as much...

....guys, both of the new classes are not the CORE CLASSES for a reason, you know?

I don't have any complain aside for the rather small skill list for Assassin and Ritualist.

While this may be true, critical strikes would be dealing 17 damage on a set of daggers, which at max critical strikes would be 16% of the time. Compare this with max strength using primal rage (58% critical hits). Also, Primal Rage is Armor Penetrating, increasing effective damage.

Now lets look at some numbers.

In a 10 second period, with max dagger mastery, the effective swing speed of daggers is .99 s. Meaning, you will get 10.1 hits off in 10 seconds. At the +16% critical hits, you will get about 1-2 of these hits being critical hits, meaning 27.5 damage in addition to other base attacks with a general lower range of damage.

Compare to an axe warrior using Primal Rage with max strength. With 16 strength, primal rage gives an additional 58% chance of achieving a CH, plus the 20+16=36% sundering by the skill and the strength attribute. In 10 seconds, the axe user will have gotten 7-8 hits, of which about 4 will be critical hits, resulting in 122 additional damage over the base 13 dps. This will allow for much more damage than the daggers.

The key to daggers has always been and remains their skills which are the most effective dealer of conditions on any melee class. However, this is detractory from the fact that there is still less playable combinations with other classes.

Whern't Rt and Assassin Desigend to fit certain build's that core couldent complete as well as the new classes could?

What? Their primary skills have almost nothing to do with how versatile they are. The ritualist is one of the most versatile classes in GuildWars right now. There's a difference between a class being versatile and a class being compatible with other classes.

And how can you compare max dagger mastery hits to max strength hits PLUS an elite skill? It's not fair judgement. That's like saying one warrior can do more damage with a stance/shout than the other warrior. Of course they're going to do more damage!

I think you'd want to reword your title.

Okay, so I want a ritualist to fill out my group. So what do I want to to do? Lets try restoration.. nah.. a monk would work better. How about some channeling? Wait, I already ahve an ele. I could try some weapon buffs. Crap, those suck. How about tanking with items? Well, we already ahave a warrior.

now.. I know... lets use a ritual lord spirit spammer.

So far, the majority of group utility of a ritualist has been found to be this ritualist is the spirit spammer.

As far as utility and versatility, the ritualist lacks the effectiveness of combination utility.

[QUOTE=samcobra]Okay, so I want a ritualist to fill out my group. So what do I want to to do? Lets try restoration.. nah.. a monk would work better. QUOTE]
alright, will you spend the next two hours looking for a pc?

the fact that you dont know how to use them properly doesnt mean they suck

From the surface, most would believe that the OP's opinion would be true.

However, when you drill down to it, there is a ton of versatility that (1) doesn't fit the cookie-cutter molds that the OP tries to categorize the original classes into and (2) plain just hasn't had the time to develop yet, mainly because of the novelty of the new classes.

#1 above is pretty clear based on the OP's last post - monks are meant to heal, elementalists are meant to spike, and warriors are meant to tank. And the assassin and ritualist aren't as effective as them in doing that.

The problem is that these classes can be used to do MUCH more than that, and in many ways the ritualist, especially combined with one of those core classes, can one up them.

For example, the classic protection monk's bread and butter is Reversal of Fortune. I have found that Vengeful Weapon is often a better skill due to the life stealing damage it provides. I wouldn't be surprised if more Mo/Rt's appear out there for this very reason. But again, that's not fully fleshed out because we're still pretty early in the Ritualist's development.

Lets not turn this into a flaming thread, but here's my contention on weapon buffs. They do not provide enough of an advantage to use them in the stead of something that could be used instead. Take Brutal weapon. Instead of adding to the damage of a tank, and using a weapon buff rit, you could replace the character with something that actually dishes out further individual damage. Furthermore, how many weapon buff rits are used in a team setup?

Again, please keep all opinions and criticisms constructive (ie, explain how to combine different classes, etc instead of saying that they exist but not clarifying)

Actually, I think AW Lore's right. Most people who don't like the new classes don't really know how to use them properly.

I know for one thing that my assassin happens to be the more enjoyable PvP character. It can pwn touch rangers and casters (especially monks) faster than warriors can. I had to re-evaluate how useful assassins were after that discovery...

The same thing was said, a long time ago, about the Mesmer, the Necromancer and the Ranger.

The same thing will be said about the new Professions introduced with any new chapter.

People lack foresight. People lack hindsight, too, to see that some of the most popular builds today (MM, SS, Barrage Ranger, etc) didn't become common until a few months ago, long after Guild Wars had been released.

In time, people will learn more useful combinations with the Assassin and the Ritualist, cookie cutter builds will be created, and the players of Chapters 1 and 3 will be prejudiced in PUGs because they can't play as a Assassins or Ritualists (oh, the joy).

What does Aura of Displacement have to do with Critical Strikes?

Try being an Assassin with, say, Flurry and high Critical Strikes - not only you'll attack more often, but you'll get more energy. Try being an Assassin and using Critical Eye with any Warrior weapon (or just high Critical Strikes anyway), or be an Assassin/Warrior and take "Shields Up!" and other Tatics skills that help with defense. Go Assassin/Ranger to use both Sharpen Daggers and Apply Poison, so each of your criticals inflict both poisoning and bleeding, and add Quickening Zephir to make your (long recharge time) Deadly Arts skills be actually useful.

If you want to go a Ranger/Assassin, go Expertise and some say you'll be more efficient than an Assassin. If you're a Warrior/Assassin, just take some Shadow Stepping skills to deal with runners. If you want to go Ele/Assassin to use the (many) PBAoE spells in Factions, the Shadow Steps also helps a lot to be alive.

Minion Bomber. Between Spawing Power, Boon of Creation, Explosive Growth (and if you need a timer, Signet of Creation), a Ritualist can minion bomb spike better than a Necromancer.

Ranger Spirit spamming, the Ritualist not only has ways to keep these spirits with more health, but also more skills that benefit from these. Go Ritualist/Warrior to benefit from Weapons Spells (that, unlike almost everything else in the game, cannot be removed), etc...

Etc...The list of possible combinations, with good results, goes on as long as one takes the time to think, and not just complain.

Erasculio

Primal Rage disables all skill for its duration, Strength only triggers on attaqck skills, thus the maths here is completely flawed.

Without adding in skills, armor level 60 target, constant auto-attack damage, etc. Here are the numbers:

Personally, I've found that people who think the new classes are the total bomb just don't have enough experience to understand where they fit in the role of things. Ritualists and Assassins have good uses, but they aren't better than other professions hands down. This goes both ways though. They're balanced, it just so happens that Assassins and Ritualists aren't as well known amongst the community, and thus its taking quite a bit of time to flesh out their best roles and how well and where they fit.

I agree with these sentiments.

I'd also like to point out that you took the most versatile examples of the core professions. Divine Favor? Strength? Not particularly versatile primary attributes. Spawning Power blows these away by comparison (working on minions for instance).

when we got more chapters through, im sure we will see a much more blended team of professions. cause what can you do when you get all the original mixes? you get monks without healing line and everything else + something from like a ranger for defense type thing (inplace of smiting). ya know? different armor, looks, and feel to it, but it would still be viable to play and would complement some type of build.

you see? this game is so new still - theres gonna be alot to mess with soon. so many characters wooooooooot it will never get old for me :P

The problem I am facing with my ritualist is it seems to be a case of "Jack of all trades, master of none" I think the rit is a bit too versatile. I don't care for the spawning powers as much because during normal battles, you move too quickly and your spirits mostly seem like a waste. You can use draw spirit, but I have found it a bit buggy at times. I would like to see a spirit window to be able to target and see health of your spirits better. I have yet to try out any rit elites however, and that may make a bit of difference.

I haven't played around with my assassin much but don't think I like him much, but that may just be because I haven't gotten into the skills yet.

They don't seem very condusive to most secondaries however. For the most part, just like with the core classes, I tend to just go Monk to start for reusable res and a bit of spot healing, and by the time you get to change secondaries, you have a better idea of cross class builds.

I prefer keeping my points into the primary profession lines when playing a new character to learn their individual strengths and weaknesses.

I am not even going to get into this, but please no more class hate....

Assassins are usually very good in PvP but they are not so good in PvE
Ritualists are not versatile in PvP but they are good in PvE

Ritualists have Spawning Power primary attribute. There is an elite skill which will open lots of possibilities to secondary caster professions and same time use your primary attribute. They are mainly for PvE but maybe someday someone will find them good at PvP too.

This is my point of view. Some of you are way more experienced in PvE and PvP so feel free to write your opinion.

They already have. Ritual Lord/Soul Twisting makes them some of the best damage mitigation in the game, and that's not something to be overlooked.

They won't be praised until some high guild makes a new build with them. Untul then, people will just say they suck. Which they don't.

An Rt/N anyone? Ritualist Necromancer. The new MM, soon. When people realise how well the spells go together. Also, to the guy who said weapon spells suck, They can't be removed. They CAN'T BE REMOVED. Some people...

The new classes are not ment to be versital. They have specific jobs and that's it. If they were versital they would take over the old positions and the core classes would no longer be needed.

The new professions are going to do 1 job and do it well. They are not there to add much else to the game. They add new mechanics and game styles but will never replace the core classes.

The new professions that are introduced in each campaign are most definitely niche classes. Since Factions is the only campaign the Assassin and Ritualist will be in, yes, in the long run, they won't be as versatile as the core classes. The same goes for the new classes that will be introduced in chapter 3.

The more classes they introduce, the worse it will get. I would rather see them focus on making fantastic PvE, great enemies and balanced stuff. Unfortunately people won't buy stuff unless it has "z0mg new stUfF!!11" so they get some gimmicky stuff that they aren't impressed with, then they complain about it.

The new classes are meant to be versatile to a degree even though they aren't core classes. Look at the Crit Barrager and MM Rit. I'm glad people are using Ritualists more in PvP, even though Assassins aren't getting as much popularity my guild and I are trying to change that Look at Soul Barbs spike, people are taking advantage of the short cast time hex spells (even though they aren't using it to it's full potential).

When people see the power of the Assassin's skills when a good guild uses them they will use them more popular. E.g. Mark of Death is much better than the unpopular Defile Flesh, half as much less healing but quicker cast and no sacrifice. I want to see Shadow Shroud used more in GvG, I'm really getting tired of the same old 2 Boon Prot metagame. Soul Barbs spike is also making Boon Prots less effective in GvG too, I'm not saying I hate Boon Prots but after this long they really are getting boring.

I really will be upset if they stop supporting Assassins and Ritualists in further chapters, no new quests or skills will make me ask why the new professions were made in the first place.

Well you say the primary attributes of the old classes combo with stuff, using Expertise and Fast Casting as an example, Soul Reaping to an extent.

I can't think of many uses for Strength other than boosting the power of it's line skills, it's a pretty damn useless primary attribute. I'd rather have critical strikes. Other than the Conjure ether prodigy spammers, there weren't any "extra" uses for Energy Storage.

Divine favor is not compatible with anything but healing. Some primary attributes are better than others, I wouldn't call for a lack of compatibility for only the new classes, there are old attributes that are just the same or even worse.

Imo

Ritualists shine more in HA than in GvG because by their nature they are a static class. I find assassins to be superior in GvG as they are pretty much perfect for ganking, whilst in HA they work but only in certain builds.

It has been said before that the core classes are designed to be very versatile, as they will be included in every chapter of Guild Wars. The classes unique to a chapter are designed to be more role specific.

I can solo the first three rooms of the Deep on a Ritualist so I don't know what you're complaining about. The Ritualist alone is a huge mini-management class so expecting it to work perfectly with every other class is asking for an inbalance.

I mean W/Rt... come on. XD

They are just as versatile as any other class - Monk's primary attribute prevents it from working with any other class, unlike other primaries, no one complains about monk versatility.

Funny, I figured a single class that can spike, nuke, heal and protect would be considered pretty "versatile"

If you have Prophecies and Factions, will you be able to make assassins/ritualists in Chapter 3?

C3 will have 2 more equaly halfassed professions unless AN wants to keep making money. And Im guessing they do.

Zakarr wrote: "Assassins are usually very good in PvP but they are not so good in PvE"

1. Not so good in PvE, true, especially when henching. Critical Barrage Archer w/wo pet seems to work best, but not so well as a real Ranger.

2. PvP, you are probably right. I prefer my mesmer in PvP to my assassin, though.

3. Just at random one day, I looked at about 20 games in observer mode to see how many assassins were in use. Only two or three out of the 20 games had even one assassin on one team. Not a very scientific survey I'll admit.

I agree that the new classes have lackluster capabilities compared to the old classes. There simply isn't as much to do with them as there was the core classes. This might be because factions doesn't have a lot of soloable areas, runable areas, or anything that provides a goal to shoot for, other then clear something with henchs. Now before my post gets any deeping into a flame post, Im gonna say, if factions had more stuff to do, there might be...more stuff to do with the new classes....

Theres no obvious connection there, but it makes sense in my head.

Moral of my long, rather off topic post, bring back places to farm, just make it harder for botters, then more people will want to do stuff on the new classes to achieve certain goals...

/endrant

And all of those are done with either a Wa/Mo, a 55 Monk or a 55 Necro. Why do you think that would make people use more an Assassin (who sucks for solo farming) or a Ritualist (who sucks completely at running)?

That doesn't mane any sense.

Erasculio