[merged] Touch Rangers
RotteN
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Originally Posted by LordLucifer
a build that doesnt require the player to look at the screen too much, every1 knows exactly what hes gonna do, and MOST builds out there cant stand the slightest chance to beat (or you counter it or your chance is 0%..) IS overpowered and NEEDS a nerf.
- you'll have to look at your screen no matter which build you run
- you can predict what it's gonna do for a lot of builds, what's your point ?
- i've never lost to touchrangers, not planning on ever doing so.
so basically, you're saying that touchrangers are fine, and don't need any nerf at all
- you can predict what it's gonna do for a lot of builds, what's your point ?
- i've never lost to touchrangers, not planning on ever doing so.
so basically, you're saying that touchrangers are fine, and don't need any nerf at all
LordLucifer
Quote:
Originally Posted by RotteN
- you'll have to look at your screen no matter which build you run
- you can predict what it's gonna do for a lot of builds, what's your point ?
- i've never lost to touchrangers, not planning on ever doing so.
so basically, you're saying that touchrangers are fine, and don't need any nerf at all
-you really dont even have to look to beat ppl with touchers, i did it myself, many times, literally
-my point is, you can predict what hes gonna do and unless you have some very spefic counter skills you cant do a thing abt them at all
-well good for you, too bad the rest of the world play with 7 skills+rez sig in PvP instead of 6 skills+rez sig+the exclusive counter just for touchers
- you can predict what it's gonna do for a lot of builds, what's your point ?
- i've never lost to touchrangers, not planning on ever doing so.
so basically, you're saying that touchrangers are fine, and don't need any nerf at all
-you really dont even have to look to beat ppl with touchers, i did it myself, many times, literally-my point is, you can predict what hes gonna do and unless you have some very spefic counter skills you cant do a thing abt them at all
-well good for you, too bad the rest of the world play with 7 skills+rez sig in PvP instead of 6 skills+rez sig+the exclusive counter just for touchers
KamikazeChicken
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordLucifer
-you really dont even have to look to beat ppl with touchers, i did it myself, many times, literally
-my point is, you can predict what hes gonna do and unless you have some very spefic counter skills you cant do a thing abt them at all
-well good for you, too bad the rest of the world play with 7 skills+rez sig in PvP instead of 6 skills+rez sig+the exclusive counter just for touchers -Anyone playing a melee-ranged character can PvP RA/TA/AB without looking at the screen. As long as you know the key commands, you're able to attack anything that's hostile and in range. You probably won't be attacking the best possible target, but I wouldn't expect a toucher to know who it would be anyway.
-You're an idiot, if you know what the other person is going to do and still can't counter it. If you see a toucher coming at you, kite. How hard is that? Now, instead of being spammed by all their skills, you'll get hit by 1 skill periodically.
-Along with kiting, Monks can out heal touchers, snares can stop touchers cold, knock downs stop them, skill counters would also work, but none of the above are required to stop from being killed. You could kite the SoB to the other side of the map, and it's your own team's fault for being unable to take down an overextended target, while he's away from his monk.
-Why do people continue to think that they must take a specific counter to stop touchers? Kiting is your best friend. It's also not unlikely to end up being thrown together with an ice snarer, crip ranger, trapper, monk, etc. that has a "counter" among it's regular skill selection.
-Honestly, I guess this type of build would be something to wreak havoc against mostly PvE-oriented individuals, but that doesn't make it overpowered. I wish people would just change their own tactics/learn to beat things with what they have, instead of always calling for the nerf bat. I'm just glad Izzy knows what really does and doesn't need a nerf. ^_^ GG Izzy.
-my point is, you can predict what hes gonna do and unless you have some very spefic counter skills you cant do a thing abt them at all
-well good for you, too bad the rest of the world play with 7 skills+rez sig in PvP instead of 6 skills+rez sig+the exclusive counter just for touchers -Anyone playing a melee-ranged character can PvP RA/TA/AB without looking at the screen. As long as you know the key commands, you're able to attack anything that's hostile and in range. You probably won't be attacking the best possible target, but I wouldn't expect a toucher to know who it would be anyway.
-You're an idiot, if you know what the other person is going to do and still can't counter it. If you see a toucher coming at you, kite. How hard is that? Now, instead of being spammed by all their skills, you'll get hit by 1 skill periodically.
-Along with kiting, Monks can out heal touchers, snares can stop touchers cold, knock downs stop them, skill counters would also work, but none of the above are required to stop from being killed. You could kite the SoB to the other side of the map, and it's your own team's fault for being unable to take down an overextended target, while he's away from his monk.
-Why do people continue to think that they must take a specific counter to stop touchers? Kiting is your best friend. It's also not unlikely to end up being thrown together with an ice snarer, crip ranger, trapper, monk, etc. that has a "counter" among it's regular skill selection.
-Honestly, I guess this type of build would be something to wreak havoc against mostly PvE-oriented individuals, but that doesn't make it overpowered. I wish people would just change their own tactics/learn to beat things with what they have, instead of always calling for the nerf bat. I'm just glad Izzy knows what really does and doesn't need a nerf. ^_^ GG Izzy.
LordLucifer
Quote:
Originally Posted by KamikazeChicken
Quote: --You're an idiot, if you know what the other person is going to do and still can't counter it. If you see a toucher coming at you, kite. How hard is that? Now, instead of being spammed by all their skills, you'll get hit by 1 skill periodically. "touchy" arent we? lol, anyway, pretending you still got credit after the comment.. well good, you see a toucher you run in cicles and thats it, gg that solves everything if you havent the specific counters
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Quote:
Kiting is not running in circles. That's precisely why most Guru people can't kite worth a damn because they never bother learning the proper way. It's obviously too much work reading any pvp-guides. The only time running in a circle is effective is in Ward of Melee and possibly Ward of Stability. |
--Why do people continue to think that they must take a specific counter to stop touchers? Kiting is your best friend. It's also not unlikely to end up being thrown together with an ice snarer, crip ranger, trapper, monk, etc. that has a "counter" among it's regular skill selection.
no repeating myself here.. Quote:
Any melee-ranged character can play just as well as a toucher, while not looking at the screen. I wouldn't suggest monks or other casters trying to do so.
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monks can outheal almost anything, that doesnt mean its ok, and problem with touchers was never the dmg itself, but the good DPS+just the same self healing rate, if you didnt know abt that then what are you doing in a toucher thread?
Touchers end up sacing themselves down to less than half health in no time. Touchers have a relatively high dps, if people refuse to kite. Their damage is considerably decreased just by kiting or snaring. Touchers also lack the ability to inflict deep wound, knock down, or heal themselves properly. Touchers are easily picked off, and people still shouldn't be having problems against this build.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LordLucifer
yes, lets all "change tactics" because of a single build and make everybody play alike, gg
and no, i play MMORPGs or many years and this is the very 1st time i ask something to be nerfed, reasons are obvious Everyone doesn't have to change their tactics because it's obvious some people learned how to kite and properly PvP. You still need practice, if you're being consistently owned by touchers. There has yet, and will never, be any good reasoning to nerf this build. You all need to learn to deal with that because it's not going to happen. LordLucifer
#1 no it doest work like that at all
#2 i didnt mean literally *sigh* but check 2nd last post here http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...3072605&page=9 #3 ppl shouldnt but they do, why? because like i said many times, unless you CAN do some specific counters, all you can do is run from them. #4 i dont have so many problems with them, in RA i fought against a 4 toucher team, (we went to TA) i was using the premade dervish (just spamming AoE cripple and kiting, nothing more) we had a monk, a paragon and something else i dont remember, but we won (noone else with snare may i add) problem with them isnt me losing, its the build itself that is overpowered and needs a fix (not to say nerf again) just by being capable of killing many easily and doesnt require skills AT ALL to play Mostly Harmless
Noticed that the changes proposed by some of the 'nerf' posts would nerf other builds, not just Touch Rangers.
- Making expertise only apply to Ranger skills would also nerf Ranger/Warrior builds [eg Bunny Thumpers] which don't need nerfing. - Increasing the recharge on necro touch skills would affect all necro touch builds, not just Touch Rangers. I am not certain that Touch Rangers really do need 'nerfing' at all, but if it is decided that they do, then surely the best way would be one that affects only Touch Ranger builds [eg making Vamp Touch/Bite spells instead of skills].
SnipiousMax
I generally play Boon Prot when my guild plays PvP (low end, usually only four on at a time) and we always run some form of a balanced group. We have yet to lose to a group of four touchers. Let alone 3, 2, or 1 toucher.
Cogline Boh
Ive been playing touch ranger in RA for last week and cant say thats its over run with the build , especially in last few days there seems to be a lot of specific anti toucher builds flying around. As usual the win had a lot to do with the random team composition. I think RA is more likely to be over run with cripshots and anti touch mes builds in the next few weeks especially with the hassle that touchers get , (toucher noob if u win toucher noob if you lose.)
It does make me wonder where the warriors place in RA and PVE is now though.The warrior should be the strongest melee character,in RA without a monk the W/E and W/R are rendeed useless and dispatched very quickly by a toucher. In PVE im using toucher in shiverpeaks and in iron mines/thunderhead keep and the build is devastating.To be honest against heavily armored jade, zealots etc the toucher makes warriors look useless.Only advantage they have ......balanced stance . Im going to take my ranger to end of prophecies and see how he fares , only problem area i can see is ring of fire energy depleting ether seals . Im not saying toucher is better in these missions than a good balanced ranger build, just that the toucher is a lot better in melee in these missions than a warrior is. mongolman08
Touch Rangers are a brilliantly thought up build and very fun to play but like all builds we do have our weaknesses. Over long range is where most the damage comes and they only seem powerfull because of all the noobs playing and getting owned by them.
Xaero Gouki Kriegor
touch rangers are to single char builds, as are iway is to hoh group builds imo, extreme weaknesses, but only have to spam a couple skills
Evilsod
The only reason why i would ever consider bringing Touch skills on a necro is the fact they ignore Spellbreaker and Shadow Form. Make them spells, there is no way to justify the 15 energy cost, or any reason why i should bring them.
Its not always fun when your stuck trying to kill an Afflicted Assassin for 20 seconds because nothing you do can hurt it when a single Vamp Touch could drop it instantly. Mostly Harmless
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsod
Its not always fun when your stuck trying to kill an Afflicted Assassin for 20 seconds because nothing you do can hurt it when a single Vamp Touch could drop it instantly.
I know - it's the same for everyone else though - once the 20 secs are up then the Assassin is almost 1-2 hit kill if it hasn't healed/escaped to safety. Shadow Form is one of the few decent elites available to an Assassin [but suicide if misused] - not sure that all Afflicted Assassins should be carrying it as standard though...
Eilsys
I agree that Touch doesn't need to be nerfed. Plenty of counters, and all that, point taken. But Air smite, IWAY, MM's... all those were nerfed, and smite has plenty of counters (diversion, Mantra of Flame, etc.), and supposedly a "skilled" team can beat IWAY, right?
If Anet uses the same logic as their previous nerfs, why wouldn't they do it with Touch? Baggers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faer
Nothing is funnier than a cocky Mesmer casting Backfire on a touch ranger, thinking that it'll slow them down at all. Seriously, I laugh really hard when I see it happen.
 Oh and guess what? Touch Rangers steal more life than they lose from Spiteful Spirit, so the damage is effectively negated.Please read skill descriptions before entering battle. Also, please test a build before bragging about it on public forums. By reading this, it appears that you have never actually used these tactics on a touch ranger, but are instead claiming to have done so for popularity or recognition. gg Necro. My Ranger looks forward to seeing you in battle. I whacked on SS + Empathy + Isidious Parasite with my Necro (first time I really put some sort of build with it, never use him) - It seemed to cause the Ranger trouble. I don't know if all those skills stack or whatever, I was in the heat of battle :P But yeh, those 3 skills pretty much shutdown Warriors as they'll kite coz of the hex's. It's not as effective Vs Touchers coz they heal more, but when I kept the hex's up he seemed to kite so he must of not liked it. Please excuse me if those skills don't work fully, I was testing. Mostly Harmless
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Originally Posted by Baggers
I whacked on SS + Empathy + Isidious Parasite with my Necro (first time I really put some sort of build with it, never use him)
Out of those 3, I believe only SS would affect a Touch Ranger. According to the descriptions, Empathy and Insidious Parasite trigger on attacks and I don't think touch skills are treated as attacks [which is why they can't be blocked either].
Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.
holden
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mostly Harmless
Out of those 3, I believe only SS would affect a Touch Ranger. According to the descriptions, Empathy and Insidious Parasite trigger on attacks and I don't think touch skills are treated as attacks [which is why they can't be blocked either].
Please correct me if I'm wrong on this. thats true as far as i know. touch and bite are skills. only SS would trigger, not parasite or empathy. but yes since touch and bite are bringing in 65 health each it's not too big of a deal to take 37 dmg.
Sir Mad
Quote:
Originally Posted by holden
thats true as far as i know. touch and bite are skills. only SS would trigger, not parasite or empathy.
but yes since touch and bite are bringing in 65 health each it's not too big of a deal to take 37 dmg. SS deals damage to the touchie's mates around. I remember playing a toucher (yeah and not ashamed!) in RA. There was a warrior and another toucher in the team. The opnent necro echoed SS on me and the other touchie. Just imagine what happened to our warrior who was attacking the same target... Since then I pay more attention to this kind of stuff 
Rofl_Pwnt
SS doesnt affect touchies... If we have 16 in blood we do 68 dmg..for all i know SS cant get that high...so..SS wouldnt affect us by making us take dmg...just. kind cuts our healing :|
Baggers
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Originally Posted by Rofl_Pwnt
SS doesnt affect touchies... If we have 16 in blood we do 68 dmg..for all i know SS cant get that high...so..SS wouldnt affect us by making us take dmg...just. kind cuts our healing :|
Fair enough, the toucher I encountered must of just been scared by the amount of hex's But still, halving the touchers healing is worth it.
Rofl_Pwnt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baggers
Fair enough, the toucher I encountered must of just been scared by the amount of hex's
But still, halving the touchers healing is worth it. All The More True, Cutting Touchers Health Really Affects them =/ Damn you SS!!! D:
QuixotesGhost
I couldn't find a life steal master on the Isle of the nameless so I couldn't test it... but:
Does Reversal of Fortune trigger on Lifesteal? That ~60 damage is right in RoFs sweet spot. If not, it's a sensible nerf to give RoF that property. * Reversal of Fortune now triggers on life steal.
JR
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuixotesGhost
I couldn't find a life steal master on the Isle of the nameless so I couldn't test it... but:
Does Reversal of Fortune trigger on Lifesteal? That ~60 damage is right in RoFs sweet spot. If not, it's a sensible nerf to give RoF that property. * Reversal of Fortune now triggers on life steal. No, it doesn't, and neither should it. The point of Life Stealing is that it cut's straight through any kind of Protection or other damage mitigating factors, it is a silly idea to start messing with game mechanics just to put a very mediocre nerf on Touch Rangers. What should be done? Quite simple in my opinion. Zojun's Haste/Dodge currently end on attacking, which is why a large amount of Touch rangers use it currently, as they use skills as opposed to actual attacks. It is very usefull for them, to catch kiting foes, which would otherwise severely stunt their damage. Solution? Make the stance end on the use of a skill. This still makes it viable as a speed buff, just not at all for Touch Rangers. Sol Deathgard
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR-
No, it doesn't, and neither should it. The point of Life Stealing is that it cut's straight through any kind of Protection or other damage mitigating factors, it is a silly idea to start messing with game mechanics just to put a very mediocre nerf on Touch Rangers.
What should be done? Quite simple in my opinion. Zojun's Haste/Dodge currently end on attacking, which is why a large amount of Touch rangers use it currently, as they use skills as opposed to actual attacks. It is very usefull for them, to catch kiting foes, which would otherwise severely stunt their damage. Solution? Make the stance end on the use of a skill. This still makes it viable as a speed buff, just not at all for Touch Rangers. better solution... just use the counters that have been mentioned thousands of times in hundreds of threads and quit whining about them people. If you can't beat a touch ranger then you don't need to be pvping cause you obviously don't know what you are doing or can't read cause you aren't looking at your skills. (or you're too lazy to buy new ones cause your 1337 with the 8 skills you've used since you bought the game) Warrior - Wild Blow on the stances. I don't know how many rangers have run from me after they lost their stance and I can hit them freely Ranger - lay down some traps, the degen will kill them unless someone is stupid enough to come near a touch ranger with conditions on him. Ele - AoE spells that affect the area around you, touchers can't heal fast enough through the dmg Mesmer - Degen, Diversion, Blackout, Archane Thievery. Necro - Wither Malase, and life degen Monk - Smiting spells Assassin - Return is a great skill, read what it does I left out Rit cause I just made one and he's not ready to pvp yet, but I'm looking for possiblitys
Amy Awien
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Originally Posted by JR-
... Make the stance {Zojun's Haste/Dodge} end on the use of a skill.
Would also make them mostly unusable for every other Ranger. Bad idea.
Evilsod
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR-
Solution? Make the stance end on the use of a skill. This still makes it viable as a speed buff, just not at all for Touch Rangers.
Anyone with a ranger would realise thats about as stupid an idea as nerfing Expertise.
SnipiousMax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy Awien
Would also make them mostly unusable for every other Ranger. Bad idea.
When have you ever used a skill while under dodge? They'd still serve the purpose they've been serving, a very fast speed buff to get out of nasty situations.
Evilsod
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
When have you ever used a skill while under dodge? They'd still serve the purpose they've been serving, a very fast speed buff to get out of nasty situations.
Troll Unguent? Healing Signet? Shields Up? Holy Veil? Mend Ailment? Purge Conditions? Heal Area? Healing Breeze? Shadow Form? Deaths Charge?
SnipiousMax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsod
Troll Unguent? Healing Signet? Shields Up? Holy Veil? Mend Ailment? Purge Conditions? Heal Area? Healing Breeze? Shadow Form? Deaths Charge?
Are you really going to stop for three seconds to cast troll ungent while using a skill with an already weak duration? Two seconds for Heal sig? Why use shields up when dodge is already a defense against ranged attacks? Condition removal... fair enough. Heal Area and breeze aren't effective on a Ranger primary anyway. Shadow Form and Deaths charge can't wait till the end of dodge?
Point is that having a skill cancel dodge is not the end of the world for a Ranger. It's not that big of a deal.
vapor311
The biggest thing that I hope comes from all of the hype that touch rangers have generated is A-Net's look at what skills they decide to duplicate once Nightfall comes out. Arguably the biggest change that made touch rangers go from comical Random Arena builds to what they are now is having duplicate copies of Vamp Bite/Touch and Dodge/Zojuns.
While touch rangers have been around since the BWEs, in the past they had to make a decision between running Escape to stay with kiting opponents and Offering of Blood to keep their energy up. Now that they can have 2 copies of Dodge on the bar, they have no need to run Escape and can sustain themselves for significantly longer periods of time. The same can be said of Vamp Touch, but to a lesser degree. Previously touchers would carry Vamp Touch + Touch of Agony. Touch of Agony is vastly inferior to Vampiric Touch for a toucher because of the lack of life stealing and health sacrifice. Now with 2 copies of Vamp Touch it can be repeatedly spammed due to it's short recharge. While I can see the marketing advantages and time savings that duplicating skills provides, I hope that a small lesson is learned from Factions and that the skills that are duplicated in NightFall do not lead to another touch ranger situation.
Evilsod
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Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
It's not that big of a deal.
And neither are touch rangers. Yet the number of threads and people whining are making it into 1.
Amy Awien
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Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
When have you ever used a skill while under dodge? They'd still serve the purpose they've been serving, a very fast speed buff to get out of nasty situations.
Like maybe something to heal, like Trolls. Any skill cancelling Dodge reduces it to a pure running skill.
Now, stop nerfing ranger skills, you will always hurt other builds. If anything needs nerfing it would be the life-stealing touchskills that are the core of these touchy-builds.
I R Chewy
i understand your struggle. it's very frustrating to me, a ranger, when i'm shooting prey (heh, my target) and up comes a lil' toucher. It bores me even enough that i made a build designed for taking them OUT! i would share it, but i'm un-sure where to post it.
Originally Posted by Amy Awien
Quote: If anything needs nerfing it would be the life-stealing touchskills that are the core of these touchy-builds.
me and my brother came up with the idea of making the touch "Skills" into touch "spells". it would work like a charm.
Raginghellcat
i'm always using skills with dodge on. Dodge allows you to attack and not get interrupted by other archers. Dodge can sometimes be the only way to get troll up with all of the interrupts out there.
Nessaja
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Originally Posted by I R Chewy
me and my brother came up with the idea of making the touch "Skills" into touch "spells". it would work like a charm.
That would fix the touch rangers.. sure..
However, all the touch rangers would just become Cultist Fervor necromancers.. although... those might actually be pretty balanced, pretty much the same as rangers now just without all the stances.
ubermancer
Wow... looks like most people here have never heard of Crippling Shot/Diversion/Blackout/Spiteful Spirit/Hex Snares/Energy Denial/basically the entire Water Magic line.
And I guess as long as people remain in the dark about those, my toucher will continue to get me Glad Points.
Cirian
Quote:
Originally Posted by I R Chewy
me and my brother came up with the idea of making the touch "Skills" into touch "spells". it would work like a charm.
Except at 15e, a Vampiric Touch "spell" would be utter junk next to Blood Drinker or Vampiric Gaze, which steal more life per energy point and are ranged.
The strength of Vampiric Touch, given the melee requirement and vast energy cost, is that it doesn't have the baggage that comes with spells and it has a very fast recycle. It used to have a 5s recycle, which was brought down to 2s, and then a duplicate was added, making it obscenely spammable. Aside from on a ranger, I wouldn't even dream of using such an energy hogging combo - on a necro I'd look at something like Shadow Strike -> Lifebane Strike -> Blood Drinker -> Plague Touch beefed up with Awaken the Blood instead. The recycle on Vampiric Touch is the safest thing to meddle with if it comes down to it.
Evls Pwn
Vampiric gaze is also counted as a "skill" which I think is complete bs. It stops a bunch of the Mesmer skills that would kill touchys from working. Also, since when has a glare that steals life from an opponent been listed as a "skill". It just seems counter-intuitive. If Anet fixed that one thing, nothing else on touchies would need to be nerfed. Btw- making a longer recycle time would completly kill the toucher build, which is not what I think everyone is after.
gasmaskman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evls Pwn
Vampiric gaze is also counted as a "skill" which I think is complete bs. It stops a bunch of the Mesmer skills that would kill touchys from working. Also, since when has a glare that steals life from an opponent been listed as a "skill". It just seems counter-intuitive. If Anet fixed that one thing, nothing else on touchies would need to be nerfed. Btw- making a longer recycle time would completly kill the toucher build, which is not what I think everyone is after.
It's a spell. Check yourself.
Yakumo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirian
The recycle on Vampiric Touch is the safest thing to meddle with if it comes down to it.
Although I do not believe a change is needed, I do however think this is the safest thing to do without effecting other skills/builds if a change is really required.
A slightly longer recharge shouldn't kill the build, it'll just make it slightly less 'effective' (for a lack of a better term). I personally wouldn't spam those skills with my Necro due to the high energy cost, so unless others do, I can only see Touchies to be affected. |
