[merged] Touch Rangers
VitisVinifera
Quote:
Originally Posted by OMFGimCUTE
i have no problems with touch rangers, mesmers rape them
qft.
I decided to join in the faction farming weekend event, and not being a PVP'er, but knowing I'd be dealing with touch rangers, I just sorta came up with something. N/Me blood degen/domination. You basically cancel out their touch skills with life transfer/life siphon, then cancel out their noobness with backfire and diversion. I'll tweak this a bit with some hex removal and energy stealing tonight.
I decided to join in the faction farming weekend event, and not being a PVP'er, but knowing I'd be dealing with touch rangers, I just sorta came up with something. N/Me blood degen/domination. You basically cancel out their touch skills with life transfer/life siphon, then cancel out their noobness with backfire and diversion. I'll tweak this a bit with some hex removal and energy stealing tonight.
VitisVinifera
Quote:
Originally Posted by OMFGimCUTE
i have no problems with touch rangers, mesmers rape them
qft.
I decided to join in the faction farming weekend event, and not being a PVP'er, but knowing I'd be dealing with touch rangers, I just sorta came up with something. N/Me blood degen/domination. You basically cancel out their touch skills with life transfer/life siphon, then cancel out their noobness with backfire and diversion. I'll tweak this a bit with some hex removal and energy stealing tonight.
I decided to join in the faction farming weekend event, and not being a PVP'er, but knowing I'd be dealing with touch rangers, I just sorta came up with something. N/Me blood degen/domination. You basically cancel out their touch skills with life transfer/life siphon, then cancel out their noobness with backfire and diversion. I'll tweak this a bit with some hex removal and energy stealing tonight.
original whopper
If your proposing to lower the cost to just 5 then that will make Touch rangers more energy effiecent, not to mention we'll have touch necros running around aswell. There are plenty of threads on how to counter them, they aren't really a Problem in serious pvp.
unholy guardian
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillz_veritas
the natural balancing act between classes is the atribute roof. Touchers cant use the skills as powerfully as Necromancer can with there full attributes.
I give this a sign as long as you reduce the overall effectiveness of the spell by 2 atribute levels. (now atribute lvl 16 will be atribute lvl 14 after change) This would prevent it from being to overpowered.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by original whopper
If your proposing to lower the cost to just 5 then that will make Touch rangers more energy effiecent, not to mention we'll have touch necros running around aswell. There are plenty of threads on how to counter them, they aren't really a Problem in serious pvp.
alliance battles don't count for pvp?
Rok
Quote:
Originally Posted by VitisVinifera
qft.
I decided to join in the faction farming weekend event, and not being a PVP'er, but knowing I'd be dealing with touch rangers, I just sorta came up with something. N/Me blood degen/domination. You basically cancel out their touch skills with life transfer/life siphon, then cancel out their noobness with backfire and diversion. I'll tweak this a bit with some hex removal and energy stealing tonight. Backfire - Hex Spell For 10 seconds, whenever target foe casts a spell that foe takes 35-119 damage. Backfire does absolutely nothing to a Touch Ranger, when will people learn. Diversion on the other hand is good if they are spamming and don't notice it is on them.
remmeh
ANet embraces touch rangers in one of those "newspaper" articles.
Touch rangers are zero-skill-required builds. Thusly, ANet embraces zero-skill-required builds. It desperately needs fixing, but I don't think ANet will do any such thing. They embrace zero-skill-required builds.
Vermilion
Alliance battles don't count as serious pvp, no.
frojack
You miss-understand. What he proposes is to make them 'spells' not skills. With the low energy cost, touchers can still take advantage of them, and now, so will the other classes. The added drawback (the balance) is that they are now spells so all the caster hate will apply to them.
Basically this will mean that mesmers will (using the nasty aforementioned term) rape touchers even more than before and give others the ability to do more against them. A good example of this approach would be Star Burst; An offensive touch 'spell' that can be affected by Backfire, PowerBlock, Power Leak, Mirror of Ice etc.
Fluffyx
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign
That's really the extent of the problem. Peace, -CxE |
@All:
A good balanced team will always win out against a touch team, and otherwise touch is pretty weak unless they're in numbers.
I'm saying this since I have played touch for awhile and I know what you can and can't fight against.
So touch rangers can solo warriors, so can mesmers, necros, and just about any class you think of. I don't hear people saying nerf melee hate. Get used to it this build isn't a big deal spend your time compaining about something more productive.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by frojack
You miss-understand. What he proposes is to make them 'spells' not skills. With the low energy cost, touchers can still take advantage of them, and now, so will the other classes. The added drawback (the balance) is that they are now spells so all the caster hate will apply to them.
If its a spell expertise should not lower its energy cost, so a touch ranger would be using it for what reason? There would be no point to it, the entire point of a touch ranger is taking advantage of a skilless build which is reduced by a high expertise.
Theus
Quote:
Originally Posted by remmeh
ANet embraces touch rangers in one of those "newspaper" articles.
Touch rangers are zero-skill-required builds. Thusly, ANet embraces zero-skill-required builds. It desperately needs fixing, but I don't think ANet will do any such thing. They embrace zero-skill-required builds. Who the hell gives a shit about skill? As long as its effective its good.As as far as I can tell from all the complainers its effective. ..Skill..Lol.
frojack
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffyx
If its a spell expertise should not lower its energy cost, so a touch ranger would be using it for what reason? There would be no point to it, the entire point of a touch ranger is taking advantage of a skilless build which is reduced by a high expertise.
You miss-understand. The main point you have not taken into consideration, is the effect of Expertise. We all know Expertise reduces the energy cost of certain abilities. A skill with a 15 energy cost will be reduced to 5 energy with max Expertise (16). The proposed new cost is 5 energy. I shouldn't need to write anymore than this...
bam23
A touch ranger usually uses a staff with full druids, giving him 37 energy. Spamming 5 energy touch spells while keeping his energy up with OoB is still no problem. And then you'll have the touch necro's as somebody mentioned.
beanerman_99
thetechx
Quote:
Originally Posted by The truth itself
The problem isn't that they are overpowered, it's just that it is a completely skillless build, and that needs to be fixed.
the build is not skilless. it is a lil bit easier then other builds but is also harder then some builds. look at the echo nuker all he has to is sit back and hit arcane echo then a nuke spell then hit the spell again in a big crow.
cast ele att or fire att before battle and dont have to worry about nrg. dont take that much skill to hit button. "PLAY SMART NOT HARD"
Misc Merik
Touch rangers are just o so fascinating to everyone...
Why? who cares....
unholy guardian
Quote:
Originally Posted by thetechx
the build is not skilless. it is a lil bit easier then other builds but is also harder then some builds. look at the echo nuker all he has to is sit back and hit arcane echo then a nuke spell then hit the spell again in a big crow.
cast ele att or fire att before battle and dont have to worry about nrg. dont take that much skill to hit button. "PLAY SMART NOT HARD" i don't know a touch ranger hitting the numbers 1 and 2 seem pretty much something a moving paper weight could do
aron searle
So all a warrior has to do is C space go, of course hell suck then.
But then if any touch ranger tries doing anything but 1&2, hell also suck. Any build can be played without skill, just not very well. bam23
A touch ranger doesn't have as big of a problem with interrupts and enchant removals as echo nukers do.
Kool Pajamas
There are tons of builds that require little/no skill to play. Deal with it. Its an effective build (in certain areas) and it is easy to counter with the right skills. No need to nerf it.
I think its just all the whammos are mad because their precious healing hands doesnt work against touchers.
Curse You
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kool Pajamas
I think its just all the whammos are mad because their precious healing hands doesnt work against touchers.
Wow, ignorant much?
I can kill touch rangers, sure. I have a Domination mesmer build that works wonders on them. However, I still dislike them. They cause rather large uproars in the fights, and excessive numbers of them are near impossible to kill. About making the skills into spells, I am fully against it. I have a necro, I like to carry Vampiric Touch. It's a great counter to opponents using Spell Breaker, Obsidian Flesh, and Shadow Form. A better (and more sensible) change is to make expertise only work on Ranger skills and all other attack skills. I have said this before, and I will keep repeating it. Rangers have a few too many uses, they can work with any secondary, and counter almost everything with a good build. Why let them have more?
shardfenix
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Kitty
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Touch rangers are broken. Here's why:
1: There is no reasonable counter. The only way to counter a touch ranger is either a slowdown hex, or crippling shot. That's it.
2: The combo (in this case expertise + touch skills) makes the touch ranger skills better than monk skills (orison yourself + unpreventable damage for 6 energy)
3: Ranger defensive skills don't work as intended (you can dodge through touching because it is not an attack)
4: The damage is unstoppable. (touch skills go through spell defenses, and it's not actual damage, so prot skills and armor don't lower it.)
Pros to a touch rangerDamage is unstoppable. It goes through spell defenses, and it is direct life steal, meaning it can't be protted against, and armor doesn't affect it.
Cons to a touch ranger.They only work in melee range.
If you still think touch rangers are fine, please explain why. I don't understand why you would think they're not broken. Oh, and one last thing. I don't want the opinions of touch rangers because they're obviously biased.
The worst excuse for defending something is "because i abuse it."
tear
Quote:
Originally Posted by shardfenix
There is no reasonable counter. The only way to counter a touch ranger is either a slowdown hex, or crippling shot. That's it.
assassins 
Rok
Quote:
Originally Posted by tear
assassins
Assassins get owned by a Touch Ranger 1 on 1
Whirling Defense, Throw Dirt, Plague Touch. I've seen more Assassins running from Touchers than the other way around.
Assassins get owned by a Touch Ranger 1 on 1Whirling Defense, Throw Dirt, Plague Touch. I've seen more Assassins running from Touchers than the other way around.
tear
Only time I've ever lost to a touchie as an assassin has been when it wasn't 1v1. Way of the fox, shadow stepping, and a dagger chain drops them almost immediately. This is why I didn't even know what touch rangers were weeks into killing them all the time.
Caleb
There are dozens of reasonable counters... all listed in this very thread. I'm not going to repeat them all for you, read the first 15 pages.
Not broken, easily countered, and highly overrated.
Not broken, easily countered, and highly overrated.
Amity and Truth
The only thing being overpowered about a Touch ranger is the amount of flaming you will recieve if you're playing one. Go on a 10 win streak and you'll have had ~40 people flaming and bitching around about the build. I wonder why so many people think they know my mother and know my level of skill as well.
On a funny sidenote:
Was playing mesmer and the monk xyz (name replaced) told me i was awesome. We did our 10 wins and parted.
Next day, i was playing a toucher and came up agains the same monk. And all of a sudden i was a skillless noob and should die.
Go figure :P
The Toucher is simply not overpowered. It's the AWM of Counter-Strike, It's the Sniper Rifle in UT, it's the Railgun in Quake, it's the Fade in Natural Selection, it's the blade spirit in UO...
Each game has one weapon that many people consider as noob or too overpowered while in reality, those are perfectly balanced. Someone whining about touchers, is probably the same person whining about one of the above examples
On a funny sidenote:
Was playing mesmer and the monk xyz (name replaced) told me i was awesome. We did our 10 wins and parted.
Next day, i was playing a toucher and came up agains the same monk. And all of a sudden i was a skillless noob and should die.
Go figure :P
The Toucher is simply not overpowered. It's the AWM of Counter-Strike, It's the Sniper Rifle in UT, it's the Railgun in Quake, it's the Fade in Natural Selection, it's the blade spirit in UO...
Each game has one weapon that many people consider as noob or too overpowered while in reality, those are perfectly balanced. Someone whining about touchers, is probably the same person whining about one of the above examples
swiftygem
Quote:
Originally Posted by ischuros
Personally i bring along Wail of Despair(You can get it off the second last mission from the necro boss) to counter TRs. Its really useful to battle all caster classes, casting it on a Mesmer will bring him down instantly.
Huh? You mean Wail of Doom?
Sacrifice 10% Health, and target foe is interrupted. If target foe was attacking, all of that foe's attack skills are disabled for 5...17 seconds.
How does that help against touch skills, let alone mesmer spells?
Sacrifice 10% Health, and target foe is interrupted. If target foe was attacking, all of that foe's attack skills are disabled for 5...17 seconds.
How does that help against touch skills, let alone mesmer spells?
zakaria
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amity and Truth
The Toucher is simply not overpowered. It's the AWM of Counter-Strike, It's the Sniper Rifle in UT, it's the Railgun in Quake, it's the Fade in Natural Selection, it's the blade spirit in UO...
Each game has one weapon that many people consider as noob or too overpowered while in reality, those are perfectly balanced. Someone whining about touchers, is probably the same person whining about one of the above examples
Bad comparison m8 
..these weapons need skills..they are overpowered but only if you give it to the skilled player...you were should compare it with someone keep firing rocket launcher hoping he hit something with it
sniper rifle FTW
HEAD SHOT..
Each game has one weapon that many people consider as noob or too overpowered while in reality, those are perfectly balanced. Someone whining about touchers, is probably the same person whining about one of the above examples
Bad comparison m8 ..these weapons need skills..they are overpowered but only if you give it to the skilled player...you were should compare it with someone keep firing rocket launcher hoping he hit something with it sniper rifle FTW
HEAD SHOT..
some guy
it isn't that hard to kill a touchy,
just put a speed degen, and spam massive health de gens, the next moment they are dead.
again they are deadly against unsuspecting noobies, but when they figured out their game, any 1 can take down a touchy.
i did it with my wame, w/me in random arena.
hamstring
conjure phantasm
run and repeat
just put a speed degen, and spam massive health de gens, the next moment they are dead.
again they are deadly against unsuspecting noobies, but when they figured out their game, any 1 can take down a touchy.
i did it with my wame, w/me in random arena.
hamstring
conjure phantasm
run and repeat
Raxxman
that's all well and good, but Hamstring needs to hit 75% miss chance with dodge, And if the touchy is carrying Life syphon/transfer your phantasm isn't going to deal that much damage.
unholy guardian
yeah more and more touchies are thinking outside the box.. sortof, life siphon strip enchant, random stuff
assassins... i have played an assassin, and if you don't kill them before they do up any stance you are so screwed, pleague touch and throw dirt... ouch
assassins... i have played an assassin, and if you don't kill them before they do up any stance you are so screwed, pleague touch and throw dirt... ouch
Rok
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raxxman
that's all well and good, but Hamstring needs to hit 75% miss chance with dodge, And if the touchy is carrying Life syphon/transfer your phantasm isn't going to deal that much damage.
Actually Dodge is only good against arrow attacks (11 secs of 78% chance with 16 expertise) .
However they do have to deal with 21 secs worth of Whirling Defense (75% chance to block any attack) as well as 16 secs worth of Throw Dirt (unless you or someone nearby has condition removal).
As well, if you manage to get hamstring through you better run before they transfer it back to you with Plague Touch.
However they do have to deal with 21 secs worth of Whirling Defense (75% chance to block any attack) as well as 16 secs worth of Throw Dirt (unless you or someone nearby has condition removal).
As well, if you manage to get hamstring through you better run before they transfer it back to you with Plague Touch.
Curse You
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amity and Truth
On a funny sidenote:
Was playing mesmer and the monk xyz (name replaced) told me i was awesome. We did our 10 wins and parted.
Next day, i was playing a toucher and came up agains the same monk. And all of a sudden i was a skillless noob and should die.
Go figure :P
The Toucher is simply not overpowered. It's the AWM of Counter-Strike, It's the Sniper Rifle in UT, it's the Railgun in Quake, it's the Fade in Natural Selection, it's the blade spirit in UO...
Each game has one weapon that many people consider as noob or too overpowered while in reality, those are perfectly balanced. Someone whining about touchers, is probably the same person whining about one of the above examples
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Originally Posted by shardfenix
(...snip) Oh, and one last thing. I don't want the opinions of touch rangers because they're obviously biased.
The worst excuse for defending something is "because i abuse it." (snip) Hmm I see some logic, just not sure where. Nvwa Strider
i play only with my ranger in ab and i probably used the touch ranger the most.
I dont use the normal build because i couldnt be arsed capturing blood offering skill and ab maps offers so much space that you can easily regain energy with running (esp storm chaser) to the other shrine. Instead of that i use grenths, but even more life transfer now. But what i think about the touch ranger in the battlefield, not even biased: warriors and assasins just dont have a change against them, they need to go melee and all the conditions they give me is countered with plague touch. If they used ranged with secondary, they will never outdamage the healing from life transfer or troll and will even die from life transfer eventually. wammos can heal them self enough so they stay alive against rangers without blood of offering or rangers that dont carry interrupts. healing casters will hold out but die if interrupted eles and mesmers win against normal touchies, but if touchies use things like cripple debilitate and life transfer they still give a hard time. necros win if the touchy dont use degen skills themselves. touchies arent better when in team, the enemy team will aim for them and kill them easily. Teams totally own touchies, just one enemy that cripples and outdamage him. I got killed in 2 seconds against mesmer, 2 eles and necro. They better when solo and capture shrines and occasionaly take on 1 or 2 foes. Touch rangers are only overpowered against the 2 other melee proffesions. Makes the other 2 profs useless since the dmg is allways close to a critical strike and the ranger can tank a lot with stances
Curse You
*leaves a 2 hour streak of RA PvP after 10 consecutive wins*
Me: Well that was interesting, wonder what the future will hold for PvP. *goes to fortune teller* Fortune teller: I see the touch rangers... I see them being a nusance... oh the touch ranger, THEY ARE GOING TO KILL YOU! Sorry just had to do that. Anyhow, I found out (the hard way) that 2 boon prots + 1 touch ranger = completely annoying. I understand that touch rangers on their own aren't that hard, but if they have monk support, they can be near impossible to kill. This just leaves me to say that most builds you can kill on their own, very easily. However the touch rangers are almost always a bit of a challenge. So, unlike with most other builds, when a touch ranger gets monk support, they become highly invunerable. Yes certain skills can be used against them, but do you want to only see Monks, Mesmers, Rangers, and Touch Rangers from now on? This game is about variety, and these guys are just completely ruining that. Sol Deathgard
Quote:
Originally Posted by shardfenix
1: There is no reasonable counter. The only way to counter a touch ranger is either a slowdown hex, or crippling shot. That's it.
Wrong, I run a Health & energy degen mesmer, & bring Rigor Mortis just for touch rangers, the vamp skills can't keep them up when they have -10 health degen, -4 energy degen & can't block or evade attacks, they go down very quickly.
Amity and Truth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curse You
Hmm I see some logic, just not sure where.
So? I've played it once and now i'm tainted, have to shut up forever and i'm not allowed to have an opinion on this topic? You know that this kind of behavior totally voids your arguments, don't you?
Know your enemy, for a moment think like your enemy and you'll see his or her weaknesses more clear. Instead of just screaming "bloody hell we need a nerf!!!!". Yes, the Touch Ranger is the Noob Basher Number 1 currently. Smashes noobs (and i'm especially using this version of the word for a reason) and owns those Players that don't see why they should simply get their back moving. All i can see in this thread is a lot of whining about something that is actually UNDERPOWERED. Seriously folks, play it once. Just play it one fricking time and i promise you right here, your opinion will either change or your skull is too thick to accept the change. You should play it even if you've vowed death through "flames" to everyone playing one. After you've seen it's weaknesses you'll also be a lot better to react. Know your enemy. I thought that was common sense. @zakaria Nah, i was using the sniper rifles as an example simply because of the amount of hate you get if you kill someone with it. It's funny as hell how some folks get all worked up just because their virtual character died because they were too stupid to play accordingly
Curse You
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amity and Truth
So? I've played it once and now i'm tainted, have to shut up forever and i'm not allowed to have an opinion on this topic? You know that this kind of behavior totally voids your arguments, don't you?
Know your enemy, for a moment think like your enemy and you'll see his or her weaknesses more clear. Instead of just screaming "bloody hell we need a nerf!!!!". First part. You don't seem to have "only" played as a touch ranger just once. From your reaction you seem to play it quite often Know thine enemy eh? Well maybe you should read some of my past posts on this very thread. I have killed touch rangers easily, I know they aren't invincible. But they are creating a pool of builds that HAVE to have a counter to them. This means that ONE build is changing ALL other players skill-sets. I understand change is good, but this seems a little ridiculous, espesially considering that only about 10 skills work well as counters. Soon PvP will basically be "have these skills or die" if builds like this apear more.
Edge Martinez
Just let this thread end. Everything that can be said, has been said. Personally, I'm enjoying what I consider the last few days of being a touch ranger, because with enough whining, Anet will probably cave.
Until ye olde mushroom cloud of nerf appears, however, I'd just like to point out that all the tough talk about 4 touchers not being hard to kill in ABs is really amusing. Every profession, every team, even every person who was set up to deal with 4 of us just got utterly mowed through. We were worried... oh noes, all the big talk on guru... they figured us out! Maybe ya'll badasses took the day off  Anyhow, until the nerf, 4 touchers a day keeps the Luxons away.
Amity and Truth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curse You
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Quote:
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But they are creating a pool of builds that HAVE to have a counter to them.
That is simply nonsense. It really, absolutely is. I'm not seeing more Degen characters than before. It's still the same amount, how have they even slightly changed their builds? Mesmers are still doing their same thing and in all honesty, if they didn't bring Diversion if their build allready allowed it... doesn't need any further comment. You're not seriously trying to defend your scream for nerf based upon the fact that people should or do bring: Snares (like they allways should have) Degen (like they allways have done) And that they have to: Kite (like they allways should have) And that they're lacking: Battlefield Awareness (like they should never have missed on that one) People don't need to change their builds because of the touch rangers. They need to change it because they should have done so before. And i'm not even speaking about Teambuilds here. Any team can beat touch rangers. |