To the OP: w/e man. I'd take a mesmer ANY day.
90% of Assassins on the other hand only equip attacks and little or no defensive skills.
Cookie cutter or not, the builds people use sometimes are retarded. A W/N minionmaster for example.
I am all for innovation, but not if it means the effectiveness is not there. I played an earth ele before the AOE nerf. Nobody wanted one but now in factions they have it as your friendly "Kai Ying Earth Elementalist henchman".
If you ask me, the mesmers are probably the best of the henches, they can interrupt, deal damage, and disable some abilities.
The assassin henches are the worst thing I've ever seen. All they do is spam bleeding and poison, while taking about 50 damage a hit from everything.
=========================================
P.S. And THK isn't hard. Two guildies and I henched it.
Missions that encourage people to think outside the cookie cutter build.
LifeInfusion
Francis Demeules
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LifeInfusion
The assassin henches are the worst thing I've ever seen. All they do is spam bleeding and poison, while taking about 50 damage a hit from everything.
========================================= P.S. And THK isn't hard. Two guildies and I henched it. |
THK? Only myself with hench. What the Prob with THK? Its cool THK!
Nightwish
Cookie-cutter builds do work, better than most "think outside the box" builds 
Half the time in RA, I would say losses are due to crazy and almost useless "trying to be creative" builds, like firestorm/sig of judgement warriors, monk trappers and more...
Hence, for PUGs, where cooperation and tolerance are lacking, cookie cutter build is the way to go.
I admit that OP's suggestion for more varied PVE challenge had come across my mind before, but I realized that this will cause problems to hench parties, where the AI and skills are fixed.
So unless you can somehow solve Henchies' adaptability to very different PVE challenges, this idea remains impractical.
Challenge missions are different, the players can choose not to do it, hence, a hench team is unnecessary.
Half the time in RA, I would say losses are due to crazy and almost useless "trying to be creative" builds, like firestorm/sig of judgement warriors, monk trappers and more...
Hence, for PUGs, where cooperation and tolerance are lacking, cookie cutter build is the way to go.
I admit that OP's suggestion for more varied PVE challenge had come across my mind before, but I realized that this will cause problems to hench parties, where the AI and skills are fixed.
So unless you can somehow solve Henchies' adaptability to very different PVE challenges, this idea remains impractical.
Challenge missions are different, the players can choose not to do it, hence, a hench team is unnecessary.
FalconDance
Quote:
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Originally Posted by markus_thom
...
After all mesmer is very usefull in pvp but not so mich in pve to me that really says something about the mob layouts no? I think it would be very interesting to vary up the opposing mobs a little so that other builds are needed to prevail after all guild wars is all about making builds to tackle the situation. Maybe the future elite missions should take this approach in which people spend weeks trying to figure a team build to tackle the place. I mean some one had to come up with the barrage build for tombs now didnt they? |
Been a while since you've played one, I guess. Mine was slated to be retired just before Factions came out, then she discovered a whole different appreciation. In fact, I revised her skills ever so slightly and she's set to have another go at Glint when our little group gets together again 
.Yes, the tried-and-true builds may work, but my position has always been there is room for individuality. Why should an ele run all fire if they can be efficient damage dealers using Air (or Earth or Water)? Yes, in some areas, fire works best just as in some areas blunt damage works better for warriors. But that's the area, not the predetermined skill set used.
That's why they make the attribute points changeable, guys. You know, take out points here and put them there. Swap out one weapon for another. Maybe even change your helm or resistant armor. Voila, different 'build'.
Francis Demeules
Quote:
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Originally Posted by FalconDance
That's why they make the attribute points changeable, guys. You know, take out points here and put them there. Swap out one weapon for another. Maybe even change your helm or resistant armor. Voila, different 'build'.
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My question to everyone, why players keep only ONE build over all the missions? Ring of Fire with Meteor Shower and hoping the Ranger brings Winter for you? Not every Ranger will brings this Spirit you know. Sticking with only one build will not make you experienced with that Profession. Only the build you use you will be experienced.
Andy_M
Thats it, I'm digging my Mesmer out of retirement. Last seen somewhere in Sardelac, I believe.
Ira Blinks
Quote:
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Originally Posted by FalconDance
Why should an ele run all fire if they can be efficient damage dealers using Air (or Earth or Water)?
|
Quote:
| Yes, in some areas, fire works best just as in some areas blunt damage works better for warriors. But that's the area, not the predetermined skill set used. |
Quote:
| That's why they make the attribute points changeable, guys. You know, take out points here and put them there. Swap out one weapon for another. Maybe even change your helm or resistant armor. Voila, different 'build'. |
better? i highly doubt so.
I do run earth build quiet often when henchieing stuff, but this is only because henchmen are retarded and can not protect themselves. With human group pure damage build is soooo much better. And damage = fire. Feel free to argue about that, i'm gonna laugh.
Doomlord_Slayermann
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ira Blinks
I do run earth build quiet often when henchieing stuff, but this is only because henchmen are retarded and can not protect themselves. With human group pure damage build is soooo much better. And damage = fire. Feel free to argue about that, i'm gonna laugh.
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markus_thom
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ira Blinks
That’s because outside of the lvl28 double attribute and hundreds AL bosses, caster hate easily substituted by pure damage. This isn’t a problem with cookie-cuter builds, this is a general flaw in game mechanics.
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How much can a mm get out of pve compared to a mesmer?
Why can a 55hp monk solo As it is meant to be a support class, and a necro summon minions and pass a majority of quests with allot more ease then other professions. Mainly because random spawns are thrown together in the same fashion over and over, allowing mm to summon over and over there’s not really many places that taking a mm is useless.
As for mesmer energy denial game it doesn’t even work due to the bosses having unlimited energy.
There are of course exceptions such as tombs where barrager/ pet parties work with mm but that’s basically as far as it goes, some rangers don’t even know other elites exist. I’d like to see them start making more areas where people actually have to start thinking about new builds.
Because as people have been stating in this thread aoe of effect attacks with the fire elem are much more usefull in much more scenarios then a water elem.
Now if we had a lv 30 assasin enemy that comes in with running skills, does huge damages then maybe a water elem would prove usefull to slow down the assasin and slow him for other units on the team to take him out.
OFF TOPIC
Just thought of a mad idea, anyone rember the defend maps in warcraft where you build towers to stop the enemies reaching the tree. Well why not add a quest where you have huge amounts of enemies running to a perticulor outpost that dont actually stop to attack you. The aim of the challenge is to stop as many units as you can reaching that outpost or place.
Francis Demeules
Quote:
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Originally Posted by markus_thom
As for mesmer energy denial game it doesn’t even work due to the bosses having unlimited energy.
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^Zos Shivros Channel: Kill the ennemies as long as you can to defend your priest.
Markaedw
I like to make up some nice builds, but in defense of the cookie cutter, there is little team communication. Once it hits the fan, you can't start stratagizing, so you stick with the basics, with what you know works.
LifeInfusion
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Francis Demeules
Knock down, Interrupt and Daze too.
THK? Only myself with hench. What the Prob with THK? Its cool THK! |
Interrupt? Daeman/Erys Vasburg
Daze? It's less than 10 seconds...and Daeman has BROADHEAD ARROW.
All in all it is pointless, they die too fast to be called worth bringing. Viper's Defense basically means super-aggro.
Francis Demeules
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LifeInfusion
KD? Devona/Kai Ying
Interrupt? Daeman/Erys Vasburg Daze? It's less than 10 seconds...and Daeman has BROADHEAD ARROW. All in all it is pointless, they die too fast to be called worth bringing. Viper's Defense basically means super-aggro. |
I dont say they godly. But they die bc they try to TANK. These hench is a good exemple for anyone who want to tank anyway as a Ammo. Even giving Build to tank with it. they're not a primary tank. Even not as a secondary.
felinette
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Edge Martinez
I recently played that one Luxon mission where you have to protect the baby turtles from the Kurzicks with my ranger/monk. It was the wierdest build I ever played.
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thor hammerbane
I, and I'm sure most of you, think outside the box when making a team, But assasins do not belong in PvE..That is just my philosophy, If i'm feeling lucky and it's an easy mission, I'll get a single assasin, otherwise I mix and match with the 7 other profs and make a useful team.
Sorry, but assasins are just wannabee ninjas.
Sorry, but assasins are just wannabee ninjas.
Francis Demeules
Quote:
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Originally Posted by thor hammerbane
I, and I'm sure most of you, think outside the box when making a team, But assasins do not belong in PvE..That is just my philosophy, If i'm feeling lucky and it's an easy mission, I'll get a single assasin, otherwise I mix and match with the 7 other profs and make a useful team.
Sorry, but assasins are just wannabee ninjas. |
Stockholm
Quote:
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Originally Posted by thor hammerbane
I, and I'm sure most of you, think outside the box when making a team, But assasins do not belong in PvE..That is just my philosophy, If i'm feeling lucky and it's an easy mission, I'll get a single assasin, otherwise I mix and match with the 7 other profs and make a useful team.
Sorry, but assasins are just wannabee ninjas. |
Assasins have there place in PvE, you just have to team up with a good one, then you might change your mind.
Francis Demeules
Lyssa's professions always not very appreciated in PvE..... again. Ritualist and Assassins are still youngs. They need to learn to grow up to be average professions like others.
They can't be good like that in few sec. Let them the time to learn how to play and see.
They can't be good like that in few sec. Let them the time to learn how to play and see.
Rent
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Francis Demeules
Lyssa's professions always not very appreciated in PvE..... again. Ritualist and Assassins are still youngs. They need to learn to grow up to be average professions like others.
They can't be good like that in few sec. Let them the time to learn how to play and see. |
Skuld
Quote:
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Originally Posted by DFrost
Well for example Thirsty River encourages it but some players don't want to listen
Two monks is overkill, why not try that mesmer who's been shouting "LFG for the love of God, please! LFG!" in the corner ever since your first failed attempt 2 hours ago? |
Matsumi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ira Blinks
If I had a choice between decent warrior and decent mesmer I would pick that warrior, and so would you. Lets not compare apples to oranges, because it proves nothing.
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2 warriors
2 monks
necro
ranger
elementalist
I would take a mesmer over a warrior any day. Just because I know with the builds I use, I can eat warriors for breakfast. Then the warriors in the team can focus on other things faster, rather than beating on the same thing for 20 seconds. But that's just me, I like mesmers in a lot of situations.
tuna-fish_sushi
i dont see why being a warrior/monk is cookie cutter...
I believe cookie cutter is an exact build such as
Sever artery
gash
final thrust
sun and moon
healing hands
watch yourself
healing signet
rebirth
str 8+1
tact 10+1
sword 12+1
Wammos are an ideal choice because
1). they can help do some damage with smites
2). they relieve stress on the monk with some heals of their own
oh yea in the party above i would take an elementalist nuker over mesmer anydaymy reasoning why? is because it works
I believe cookie cutter is an exact build such as
Sever artery
gash
final thrust
sun and moon
healing hands
watch yourself
healing signet
rebirth
str 8+1
tact 10+1
sword 12+1
Wammos are an ideal choice because
1). they can help do some damage with smites
2). they relieve stress on the monk with some heals of their own
oh yea in the party above i would take an elementalist nuker over mesmer anydaymy reasoning why? is because it works
Matsumi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tuna-fish_sushi
oh yea in the party above i would take an elementalist nuker over mesmer anydaymy reasoning why? is because it works
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Skuld
lol tuna, real effective healing hands you got there
These arguments are kind of lopsided, "a mesmer", "a fire nuker", "a minion master", the last 2 are kind of descriptive :/
These arguments are kind of lopsided, "a mesmer", "a fire nuker", "a minion master", the last 2 are kind of descriptive :/
0mar
Beating the missions only requires a stance tank, two echo nukers, an echo ss, two monks and two other professions to make it 8. PvE requires exactly zero thought now that we understand how to exploit the AI. The only challenge in GW PvE comes from you, IE how to make it harder yourself.
Francis Demeules
You want to make something harder? Challenge yourself with special goal with your friends like THK non-infusion, Beat shiro in duel (and menhlo), Do missions naked, no skills, etc.
TadaceAce
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann
Point is that he is almost impossible to take down without some caster hate, and caster hate is definitely NOT a cookie-cutter build element.
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Assassins are imo, the best class to hench with. Given henchmen are completely useless beyond a few heals and a good waste of space, you want to be an ideal balance between offense and defense.... oh great I'm almost encouraging your average wammo. No.. wammo... 0 offense 3 defense. Ideally you want somethin like 2:2. My assassin hench build I give about a 4:2.
Mesmers... very versatile, very useful in pvp, pve, not so much. They have options. They can do anti war, empathy, clumsiness, whatever. They can do wastrel worry, which is just gonna be bad. They can do energy denial or caster shutdown, um not. By the time you drain the guys energy your team killed everything including him. The best option for pve imo is degen which still just doesn't cut it. Granted degen goes through the 150 armor of the lvl 28 guys but still. 1. your guy dies before you get your energy worth of degen. 2. spreading around degen is still bad damage in comparison.
TadaceAce
Quote:
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Originally Posted by tuna-fish_sushi
i dont see why being a warrior/monk is cookie cutter...
I believe cookie cutter is an exact build such as Sever artery gash final thrust sun and moon healing hands watch yourself healing signet rebirth str 8+1 tact 10+1 sword 12+1 Wammos are an ideal choice because 1). they can help do some damage with smites 2). they relieve stress on the monk with some heals of their own oh yea in the party above i would take an elementalist nuker over mesmer anydaymy reasoning why? is because it works |
thor hammerbane
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Stockholm
It's like taking a Warrior to Urgoz's, a wasted slot.
Assasins have there place in PvE, you just have to team up with a good one, then you might change your mind. |
Kook~NBK~
In Prophecies, everyone had the same henchies most of the way through the game. And with so many people using the henchies more than PUGS, they learned to use the cookie cutter builds & also learned that Dunham isn't a very good choice for a henchie (giving us Mesmers a bad name, the bum!). So, when doing a PUG, they'd be afraid of "SOMETHING DIFFERENT!!!" Now with Factions, they've introduced several different henchies, and you can't do the cookie cutter thing with them, as you're faced with a different group of henchies at many, many towns. (it's a pain in the butt mapping around this way, but you have to make sacrifices sometimes) Hopefully, this will change the mentality of Cookie cutter PUGing.
I didn't read everyone's posts, so if I'm repeating someone, that someone has some pretty good insights into the state of the game :P
I didn't read everyone's posts, so if I'm repeating someone, that someone has some pretty good insights into the state of the game :P
Lady Lozza
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TadaceAce
Mesmers... very versatile, very useful in pvp, pve, not so much. They have options. They can do anti war, empathy, clumsiness, whatever. They can do wastrel worry, which is just gonna be bad. They can do energy denial or caster shutdown, um not. By the time you drain the guys energy your team killed everything including him. The best option for pve imo is degen which still just doesn't cut it. Granted degen goes through the 150 armor of the lvl 28 guys but still. 1. your guy dies before you get your energy worth of degen. 2. spreading around degen is still bad damage in comparison.
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I dare say, given your post, that you are a full supporter of domination only mesmers. Afterall illusion only has one elite right, migrane, that's all pvp players run so it must be the only useful one. *rolls eyes* Where is Avarre when you need her/(him?)...
No I think the problem for mesmers is that people parrot "mesmers are pvp only" all the time to the point where new players believe them. Sure it doesn't help having BAD mesmers running around, but then there are always bad wammos running around too.
To the OP, yes "cookie cutter" teams can be a pain. Especially when playing either Assassin or Mesmer, however from experience I can tell you that 80% of those teams aren't worth being in anyway. I'm not saying cookie cutter isn't good. When everyone knows what to do and does it, they really do work.
After playing a while you learn to tell the good teams from the bad. I've no problem kicking the bad people from my teams, or leaving a bad team. Afterall it is a waste of your time if you end up with a group that can't work together properly, cookie cutter or not.
Kali Magdalene
Quote:
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Originally Posted by markus_thom
yeah I know they work well thats my point.
I wanto see more missions, quests and mobs that make players think about trying different builds/proffesions rather then the ordinary proffesions and builds that you see people more commonly asking for to join their party. I mean compare the usefullness of minion master or tank to other classes such as the mesmer or assasin in pve. If they were to make mobs that counter mm or tanks and make mesmer assasins more usefull then that might influence people to think outside the square. |
Anyway, there are enemies who counter MM. They animate minions, cast wells, or use other corpse-exploiting skills, or they use smites. Nahpui Quarter has smiting Kirin and turtles with Well of Weariness, for example. This makes life tougher for MMs in Nahpui.
Never mind the relative lack of exploitable corpses in Tyrian missions. MMs work in some Tyrian missions, but not all. Several are awkward due to a lack of exploitable corpses (undead, enchanted swords, jade armor/bow, Hell's Precipice in its entirety). The Stone Summit dwarves have necromancers with corpse-exploiting skills of their own. Those azure things have signet of judgement.
Nexus Icon
Hahaha, mesmers only good for PvP?
Try this:
Fast Casting 10
Illusion 16
Inspiration 10
Ether Feast / Spirit of Failure
Energy Tap
Power Drain / Spirit of Failure
Ineptitude
Clumsiness
Images of Remorse
Phantom Pain
Resurrection Chant
Swap out SoF as you see fit, but that build will see you through 99.9% of PvE situations. Especially if your weapon and focus are good enough and give good skill recharge bonuses. I use Gorrel's Cane and a 20/20 Rockmolder for this build.
It works because EVERYTHING in PvE attacks through Ineptitude, Clumsiness & Images of Remorse. Even caster monsters wand through them.
But even this isn't hard and fast and shouldn't become a "Standard". Some people have great success with pure degen builds, some prefer being anticaster and taking out the inevitable healer monster quickly. Mesmer truly is an incredibly flexible class and is just as good for PvE as it is for PvP.
Try this:
Fast Casting 10
Illusion 16
Inspiration 10
Ether Feast / Spirit of Failure
Energy Tap
Power Drain / Spirit of Failure
Ineptitude
Clumsiness
Images of Remorse
Phantom Pain
Resurrection Chant
Swap out SoF as you see fit, but that build will see you through 99.9% of PvE situations. Especially if your weapon and focus are good enough and give good skill recharge bonuses. I use Gorrel's Cane and a 20/20 Rockmolder for this build.
It works because EVERYTHING in PvE attacks through Ineptitude, Clumsiness & Images of Remorse. Even caster monsters wand through them.
But even this isn't hard and fast and shouldn't become a "Standard". Some people have great success with pure degen builds, some prefer being anticaster and taking out the inevitable healer monster quickly. Mesmer truly is an incredibly flexible class and is just as good for PvE as it is for PvP.
Ira Blinks
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nexus Icon
Hahaha, mesmers only good for PvP?
Try this: Fast Casting 10 Illusion 16 Inspiration 10 Ether Feast / Spirit of Failure Energy Tap Power Drain / Spirit of Failure Ineptitude Clumsiness Images of Remorse Phantom Pain Resurrection Chant Swap out SoF as you see fit, but that build will see you through 99.9% of PvE situations. Especially if your weapon and focus are good enough and give good skill recharge bonuses. I use Gorrel's Cane and a 20/20 Rockmolder for this build. It works because EVERYTHING in PvE attacks through Ineptitude, Clumsiness & Images of Remorse. Even caster monsters wand through them. But even this isn't hard and fast and shouldn't become a "Standard". Some people have great success with pure degen builds, some prefer being anticaster and taking out the inevitable healer monster quickly. Mesmer truly is an incredibly flexible class and is just as good for PvE as it is for PvP. |
And if you play with henchies your target will be dead before your hexes will kick in because henchies will alway follow your target.
Rent
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rent
I really want to know when cookie-cutter became synonymous with efficient.
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Ira Blinks
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rent
I really want to know when cookie-cutter became synonymous with efficient.
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First there were efficient builds, then lots of people using them, then term cookie-cutter, not the other way around.
Nexus Icon
I'm sorry Ira, but after seeing your flamebait posts in various other threads, I really don't take anything you say seriously.
I am always casting something with that build, and I'm spreading it around too, not concentrating on one target.
But hey, my Protector of Tyria title on my mesmer must have been an accident.
PS: Weirdly enough, with Ethereal Burden swapped for Res Chant and Sympathetic Visage swapped for Energy Tap, this works surprisingly well in PvP. Or maybe I just don't know what I'm doing and all of the opposition I've met are just more stupid than me.
I am always casting something with that build, and I'm spreading it around too, not concentrating on one target.
But hey, my Protector of Tyria title on my mesmer must have been an accident.
PS: Weirdly enough, with Ethereal Burden swapped for Res Chant and Sympathetic Visage swapped for Energy Tap, this works surprisingly well in PvP. Or maybe I just don't know what I'm doing and all of the opposition I've met are just more stupid than me.
Francis Demeules
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TadaceAce
Any warrior with a clue has disrupting chop. Any ranger with a clue has distracting shot. A lot of monks and eles carry power drain/leech sig/drain enchant. A MM does a lot more damage than he heals (given he has 2 skills, faith and orison). A sin will have knockdown and/or interupts. Backfire doesn't do much because 1. It lasts 5 seconds. 2. He outheals it still. Diversion is good but still isn't as good as disrupting chop or distracting shot.
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2)Ether > Breeze
3)How high in Domination?Well set Diversion is really devastating or if you want a + 1 minute on your recharge on a skill instead +20 seconds
Paperfly
Quote:
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It is like asking why do waving trees make wind blow? First there were efficient builds, then lots of people using them, then term cookie-cutter, not the other way around. |
I've seen some great damage warriors in GW PVE. I've seen some exceptionally competent W/Mo stance tanks in full 15K Glads. It doesn't change the fact that the single most common archetype in the entirety of serverdom is the Whammo who begins every new area by casting Mending on himself. Then lets us all know benevolently that he can help the monk out a bit, you know, if it's needed.
It's cookie-cutter, by every possible measurement.
It's also lousy.
Popular opinion about PVE is not an idealised form of darwinian capitalism that unerringly produces the most efficient builds.
Surkon
Hi All,
I am New here and still learning about the game. I have learned a lot reading in here and I thought I would add my 2 cents worth I have been tring a PvE char of Rt/N and the only 2 Necro are Blood of the Master and Animated Bone Fiend and I would like the comments from you all on this type of build. I can walk through a lot of missions on Factions with 6 to 10 minions around me and henchies and complete the missions.
Please reply on this build and tell me what you think.
Thanks
Surkon
I am New here and still learning about the game. I have learned a lot reading in here and I thought I would add my 2 cents worth I have been tring a PvE char of Rt/N and the only 2 Necro are Blood of the Master and Animated Bone Fiend and I would like the comments from you all on this type of build. I can walk through a lot of missions on Factions with 6 to 10 minions around me and henchies and complete the missions.
Please reply on this build and tell me what you think.
Thanks
Surkon