Why Assassins should not tank

Why an Assassin shouldn’t tank-

Before I truly begin, let’s get something straight. I am not saying that Assassins are incapable of tanking. They are fully capable of it with the right build and the right team, and I am fully willing to prove it to anyone who doubts my claim. To understand why an Assassin should not tank, we must understand what happens when they try to tank.

Here are many skills in the assassin primary that grant some form of defensive advantage:

1.) Critical Defenses
2.) Flashing Blades (Elite)
3.) Siphon Strength (Elite)
4.) Blinding Powder
5.) Dark Escape
6.) Heart of Shadow
7.) Shadow Form (Elite)
8.) Shadow Refuge
9.) Shroud of Distress

I have left out a number of skills that many would consider ones that you can use to “tank”, but that, in my opinion, are not as useful for that purpose.

Note that three of the skills listed are elite skills in nature, and thus, cannot all be used at the same time. Now let us look at skills that truly allow you to tank from that list of nine, I am going to define tank in this case as “survive agro from multiple foes for a prolonged period of time”. Of all the skills listed, there are three skills that either do not work against more than one foe, or are only usable for one hit. We are now down to:

1.) Critical Defenses
2.) Flashing Blades (Elite)
3.) Dark Escape
4.) Shadow Form (Elite)
5.) Shadow Refuge
6.) Shroud of Distress

Of these six remaining skills, two are elite, thus we can only really use five. Shroud of Distress is only really usable once you’re below 50% hp, so some would consider it useless. It remains because the defensive bonus it would grant at 15 shadow arts is 75%, which parallels any single defensive skill in the game. Of these six, only perhaps three or four would be desirable. I am referring to Flashing Blades (Elite), Dark Escape, Shadow Refuge, and possibly Shroud of Distress if you choose to make use of it.

Now that we know what our primary options are, let’s look realistically at them. Dark Escape can only be used until it wears off (and then has an approx. 10-15 second downtime), or until you hit something. In addition, it’s a stance, and this means that it cannot be used with Flashing Blades. Of what we have remaining, two of the skills grant defensive bonuses and one of them reduces incoming damage by 50%. This honestly brings us to the combination of Flashing Blades (Elite) and Shadow Refuge for a consistent tanking combination. I find excessive number work as boring as the rest of us, and let’s face it, nobody reads it anyway, and people see a bunch of calculations and go “look, that seems right, so he must be right as well”. Those of you who play Assassins are the people who I am catering to with this post, and you know the amounts of damage that an unprotected Assassin takes when struck. Needless to say, it hurts.

Running a few tests outside of Marketplace with Assassins and Warriors-

(vs Jade Brotherhood Knights)

Dmg per hit on an Assassin- approx. 30 dmg
Dmg per hit on a Warrior- approx 1 dmg

When Triple Chop was used (the Jade Brotherhood Knight elite skill)-

On Assassin- approx. 70 dmg
On Warrior- approx. 30 dmg.

I also ran a test to see how quickly I could die. The Warrior used armor that gave bonuses vs. physical damage, and the Assassin was wearing +energy armor. The armor comparison is different because your average assassin will not be running +15AL vs. Physical armor, but one of the other types, whereas a Warrior often runs +AL vs. Physical armor. The Warrior used no skills, the Assassin attacked while under the effects of Shadow Refuge and Shroud of Distress, refreshing Shadow Refuge as necessary.

Time to death vs. a mob of three Jade Brotherhood Knights:

Assassin: 9 seconds
Warrior: 15 seconds

As another test, the Warrior was taken against the same mob with 2 skills, Healing Breeze and “Watch Yourself!”. Healing Breeze granted 5 health regeneration and “Watch Yourself!” was at 12 tactics.

Time to death vs. a mob of three Jade Brotherhood Knights:

Warrior: 22 seconds

Monk skills were solely used on the Warrior (Healing Breeze) to simulate the regeneration and healing that the Assassin experienced. “Watch Yourself” was used as a second defensive skill.

All level 20 characters have a base hp of 480 that can be modified to anywhere from 55 to over 1,000 through the use of various equipment and spells.
Now we finally get to the true reason behind it all. What is it that is keeping you alive while you are taking this damage? It is possible to solo in certain circumstances, but I am referring to a team environment. There is another person keeping you alive. That person is your team’s Monk, and your Monk has to do many things. I play both a Monk and an Assassin as my primary characters (Monk being my main character from prophecies, and Assassin being the character I have played since Factions). While you consider your options to tank, you must also consider your other teammates in tanking, since tanking relies essentially on your team surviving; otherwise there would honestly be no point to tanking, would there?

In keeping the team alive, the Monk must expend energy reserves. In reality, more energy is allotted to the purpose of healing the tank, but for our purposes we are going to allot energy per-teammate.

My monk has 47 energy (including my primary weapon set, which is completely normal except for a +5^50 wand that I use, which can be considered using an insightful mod on a staff). On an eight person team, you generally have two monks. This means that ideally you will have enough energy to reliably heal 4 people each (three + the other monk). We are going to allot that energy evenly among the team, this results in 11.75 points of energy per teammate, which we will round up to 12.00. That gives you enough energy to cast 1 heal other on an ally while under the effects of divine boon.

It takes approx. 12 seconds to regenerate that 12 energy (3 pips of energy regeneration). Logic would state that equates to 1 heal every 12 seconds, but since not everyone on the team is always attacked at once, we will say that you get 1 heal every 6 seconds. This is, of course, nowhere near how it plays out in reality. In actuality, what happens is the Monk is spasmodically pulling out hair hoping that the team doesn’t die whenever a low armor character comes under attack. The problem with having two heals every 12 seconds is that your Monk is now into a loss of energy that almost no combination of energy management skills existing are capable of reversing. The Monk is now losing 24 energy every 12 seconds, and thus is in a loss of 12 energy every 12 seconds. To compensate for this, the rest of the team kicks in, and kills the mob before the Monk loses all energy reserves due to prolonged healing on any one target. There are builds that can compensate, but since the healing Monk is a very common variety, that is what we are using as our example. One thing that a lot of people don’t know is that a healing monk generally has one way to manage energy- Calling. The Monk broadcasts their energy in hopes that the team will understand and play accordingly. Now, what happens, when one of the optimal four damage dealers on your team (two Monks for healing, two Warriors for tanking, four damage dealers) is not dealing damage, but instead is taking the damage at an accelerated rate?

One thing. The Monk eventually runs dry. As any Monk will do, if you see a teammate dying, you heal them. If the Monks are optimally healing four people each, then one of the Monks is not healing the Assassin that is tanking. When someone that another Monk was supposed to keep alive is low enough on health that something is obviously wrong, the other Monk pitches in for the heal. Now we have a bigger problem. Both Monks are low on energy now or are completely dry, meaning that the heals that were to be for the rest of the team are few and far between.

Now we’ve run into a MAJOR problem. If the entire intention behind tanking was to protect the team, are you really protecting them if they can’t be healed?

I have tried to explain this in few words, I have tried to explain it in many. I just hope that someone catches on.

That was my essential reasoning behind why an Assassin should not tank. They are capable of it, and under the right circumstances (read as: A monk using protective spirit and guardian on them) able to tank large numbers.

I wish you all Good Luck, and Happy Assassinating.

Aside from a few points I see as asanine, this rings pretty true. As long as people know Assassins CAN tank. This was also illuminating to see some of the damage spreads.

Nice work

Quote:

^^

I boon/prot in PvE, and while the healing is usable on an assassin, I have to use both Prot Spirit and Guardian to keep an assassin alive who's using Flashing Blades.

I was trying to point out that the assassin has a very limited selection of skills that they may use to tank, and even then it is fairly easy for them to take excessive amounts of damage, thus eating a lot of energy. 19 energy = ~5-10 seconds of safety for the average assassin (PS + Guardian with boon on).

assassins are not tanks in any form. the problem lies withing when it takes dmg it is taken like a unprotected necro. Spikes are or were my #1 problem for the sin. something needs done in the way of shadow step recharges or evades or armor because as a melee dealer. tanking or not the spikes are just to detrimental to the sin thus burdening the monk, creating the stereo type and if built around the dmg effects, hindering the full dmg potential of the sin.

^^

Hence the application of the "hit-and-run" style to create a minimum window in which one can take damage, thus placing less pressure on the monk, and decreasing the chance of the assassin to die.

yes but the assassins hit 1 target and run to wait and recharge and do it again. lol what a waste of time, space and character slot. a tank takes on the mob til its dead. My current build lets me average 2-3 more kills then most sins in a battle without burdening the monk or being spiked to death.

My sin is Not a tank, just an appropriate melee dmg dealer able to ENDURE.... not....TANK. a sin is best played from enemy caster to enemy caster.
However the way the assassin is now reguardless of how well you play one,they still burden the monks with over healing sense they take dmg like a caster and use direct contact attacks like a warrior.

The assassin does not need a major buff it needs a slightly better self heal or some type of 75% block/evade like almost every other class, caster or not has.
If nothing else, sense they expect us to be in and out, reduce the recharge of shadow stepping. Most are 45 seconds to recharge and if not an elite require 2 slots to waste.
also sense skill chaining is incorperated alot of times i find myself using 4 skills with a 4 hit , 2hit, 3hit combo. would be nice for better skill recharges. bad enough you have to chain now you have to wait on them to recharge to.

and if its supposed to be in and out. I have yet to see a sin who can cut thru you with 1 4-5hit combo against any decent player.

if you have one pm me for the challenge.

My sin mows through people at aspenwood as long as my 4 attacks hit them.

but as for the thread. I thought it was well put together. Got a little off topic when the monk energy and everything was being mentioned but good points. If mods ever looked in here i say we sticky this

its good info yes,.. good job. Very true in "most" Cases.

This also shows the proof of what the assassin lacks no matter how its played.
Thus a slight buff is needed in some sort.
Not a bad concept class just the "skill balance" from the preview skill set was rather excessive.

and in my opinion. -2 second reduction to recharge on shadows refuge and deaths charge recharge to 30 seconds.

that increase both the little self heal an assassin has slightly. and increase its moblility for the " Hit-N-Run " technique they wish you to use.

But then again who am I?

In most cases assassins dead less dps that wars, so according to your theory, they are absolutely useless and have no place in guild wars. Now if you think beyond math in this game and look at actuality (seeing as math can not be perfect, but only close), the assassin can easily pull manuevers that make themselves useful.

Now to return to the math aspect of it, the assassin could use things for instance like arcane echo-shadow form, making them virtually invincible for 40 seconds. In 40 seconds, 2 unhealed tanks could have easily died from the same group of brotherhood knights and the assassin attacking in turn could have killed all of them leaving before shadow form ends thus creating less energy spent on the assassins for a monk to heal during those 40 seconds and only having to heal 400 health once per 40 seconds on the assassin. 400/40 is obviously 10 health per second that the monk must heal for. Assuming most heals do approximately 20 health per energy (without boon), that would be 20 energy every 40 seconds, or .5 energy per second. That equates to 1.6 pips of energy regeneration on a monk, and assuming that the assassin is the only one taking damage in the entire group (if the entire group ALLOWS the assassin to tank) the monk will theortically have full energy most of the time and enough to heal for any accedental damage. Returning to actuallity, the group that the assassin may have died in 40 seconds, which would allow the monk to not heal the assassin for that it will regenerate to full health seeing as there is no damage being taken. Thus taking 0% of a monks energy to heal.

If we wanted to become more complicated with the idea, we could add in a second assassin with arcane mimmicry, allowing for 100-160 seconds (based on if 5 or 8 shadow forms get off) of invincibility between two tanks requiring no energy for a monk to heal. So in actuality, assassins could easily have a use in tanking if you did not overlook Shadow Form, the assassin could tank.

And btw, you gave your warrior a monk secondary in your experiment, where the assassin did not, in which a warrior primary could not tank for long himself, basically invalidating your whole argument of time on the 22 second.

I myself am trying to develop a True Hit and Run build Not involving AoD at all in fact it uses dif skills i am not quite done testing it b/c i still need to get the elite...but i will post it if it becomes a success or a failure<--Not so much when its a failure though

Im trying to devlope it so that it allows 1 hit and run with quick dmg and then a second 25% speed run in and hit nearest target then sent back to the same location it will take alot of time i am sure and the possiblities of its success are 0-none lol no clue wat that mean just that if it works it will b really hard to use due to the timeing u gotta use for it...im still thinking.

ty for the debunk.

assassins are actually the most deadly class in guild wars, (if played right) but most noobs don't play them right. well I think i play assassins right here is what i do:

1. let our tanks and other peopel distract their front line attackers
2. shadow step in and take out their healer/spellcaster
3. run back to our monk

this is what i mainly do in pve and most of pvp

and people still exclude me from groups!!!

there are good assassins too!!

well i like your build for tanking, but most peopel just leave when an assassin try to tank

heres where my argument comes in... there are reasons why assassins are considered too... low grade (can't find a word for it). most of the time you get kids in the cockpit of one, because they think the old time ninjas are so cool and invinceble when thats not the case, you rarely find a level headed one anymore that is rich that has beaten one, if not both games. alot of times people don't plan ahead of time. don't get me wrong, I've seen alot that do, but few anymore.

most of them need to learn to use adjacent skills, especially on rts and their groups/spawns

last post of my tripple,

shadow form
recall on monk
pwn
get out on flashing icon

Ok, I've gotten some interesting replies here, so I'll try to answer them all.

@Saider Maul: What you are not considering in the fact of the hit and run strategy is 1 VERY VERY important fact: You design the chain so that when your attacks are recharged, your teleports are ready. The only difference in damage that is physically possible is extra base dagger damage from remaining in melee- and we have proven that assassin's really don't thrive when in melee for a prolonged amount of time. As for buffs, I agree that Shadow Refuge should be buffed, or rather, un-nerfed. It used to halve all incoming damage while active. I would gladly accept its current recharge if the nerf applied to it was repealed. Otherwise I would enjoy either a bigger heal or a shorter recharge on it. As for Death's Charge, yes, I feel that the recharge is rather excessive, 30 seconds would be much better.

@Legendary Battousai: According to my theory they should not remain in melee for prolonged amounts of time, your other inferences are incorrect in regards to the assassin being useless in guild wars and a waste of a character slot. As for the use of Shadow Form to tank, yes, an assassin using Arcane Echo and Shadow Form with 16 in Shadow Arts could successfully tank certain mobs for up to 40 seconds. The main problem with that is that the mesmers in cantha interrupt with Signets and both the mesmers and necromancers in cantha have signets to deal damage. Also, an unhealed *TANK* would not die in 40 seconds. Mending, Healing Breeze, Healing Signet, Dolyak Signet, defensive stances. If you look to my post, you will see that the warrior that died in 19 seconds was not using any skills at all. As for the flame that you gave at the end: The reason that the warrior had a monk secondary was to completely mimic the assassin's healing abilities as much as possible without using a W/A. The Assassin would need just as much healing as the warrior if he were to actually tank upwards of 5 or 6 foes, because there would undoubtedly be ~2 mesmers and a necromancer somewhere in the mob (just from my observations in-game). Also, should the assassin step on a trap, Shadow Form does not protect against it. To top it off, against any large group of foes, the Assassin would only be able to tank in a pinch. Any number of mesmers and necromancers in a mob that has at least one ranger in it (i.e. your standard mid-late game mission mob) would kill the assassin very quickly. You overlooked damage resistance and signet of disruption, which if either were taken into account would make the warrior a much more appealing tank. Like I said, I did not say the assassin cannot tank, I was saying that it SHOULDN'T because it was much better suited to simply spiking down a monk or ritualist, and getting out of damage range.

@Some Guy: I agree with you that the main reason that the assassin's damage capabilities are under appreciated mostly because many people try to tank in all circumstances with them without the comprehension that it is only possible in a very controlled environment, which a zone with varying mobs is definitely not.

@Peter The Wise: Age really doesn't matter when it comes down to it, it really is just either that the player is willing to alter their playstyle for maximum efficiency or they are not. I haven't beaten either of the games myself yet, and I believe that several people on this forum have assassins that they have not yet taken through the game. I do agree with you that almost nobody plans ahead anymore though. I would suggest that for PvE, if you are teleporting back to the monk anyway, that you do not bother with the use of Shadow Form because if something goes wrong you're gonna die (i.e. Shadow Form gets interrupted, monk gets enchantment removed, a necro ques barbed signet as Shadow Form is blinking and gets insanely lucky). Also, it's gonna eat a lot of energy from the monk to heal you when it ends. If you have the teleport prepped already, why not use your elite to do damage or allow you to move more freely through combat? Also, I don't really see many assassin skills that affect adjacent foes that you could utilize very strategically (I realize there is Return and powers that *do* affect areas of foes, but how would you use them well enough to work a build around it?).

@Kyle: Thankyou for the compliment, I was thinking about something to relate with the energy management and lost my train of thought on what data I was going to use, if I happen to remember I'll post it. I also agree with you that using a 'sin in ABs just mows through everything if you can get your combo off. -My guild leader was spazzing over "how good this one 'sin was" just because he was from a high ranked guild (running generic horns build).

Good Luck Everyone and Happy Assassinating!

I wish you would have compared the two using better armor. In PVE, my Assassin uses the +15 while attacking. The assumption that a tanking Assassin is wearing +e armor is pretty bad.

A Warrior has ~100armor vs an Assassin's 85armor, a difference of 15. That's about 38% more damage taken by an assassin. Not 133% more (or 3000%).

I agree that no one should frame Assassins as tanks when creating all their builds, I pretty much disagree with your analysis.




What makes Warriors tanks? Their armor or stances?

Quote:

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Um ok.

1. Your statistics are mathmatically wrong.
2. Your testing against a mob that the wars +versus physical triggers.
3. You don't mention if your attacking so the sins +15 kicks in.
4. You mention the warrior using secondary skills but not the sin?

Yeah. Not to mention damage reduction got nerfed and if you are fighting attacking mobs, something like critical defenses makes it possible. Or take a look at my dryder's defenses + AP build. 75% evade and +50 elemental AL all the time while dealing tons of DPS.

Just for the record, I'm not saying that Assassins should tank.

I had posted on the assassin build directory submission forum regarding a skill setup that can "generally" endure attacks. The generalization is based on the its ability to survive/kill all the NPC types in Nameless Isle, depending on what sequence you use its skill setup. This build is not meant to tank... Rather, it's a setup that can be confident within prolonged battles, provided that it is not the target of ALL the mobs...

copy/pasted from this thread: http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showt...3008187&page=2

Profession: Assassin/Warrior
Name: Shinobi Shield
Type: PvE - tested. PvP - untested (may require slight alteration)
Category: Annihilation/Survival

Attributes:

Dagger Mastery: 12+1
Shadow Arts 8+1
Critical Strikes: 10+3+1(mask)

Skills Set:

Palm Strike {E}
Horns of the Ox
Falling Spider
Twisting Fangs
Wild Blow
Critical Defenses
Critical Eye (Rez Sig)
Shadow Refuge (Rez Sig)

Summary: What this build lacks in mobility, it gains in staying power. This build has its focus on survival, which is based on constant 72% blocking goodness from a combination of Critical Defenses and spamming Wild Blow everytime it recharges. Preferably used against lone targets, your Offense is based on a successful chain of an unblockable touch skill combined with dual attacks, (one with a bonus knock down), and condition stacking (poison, bleeding, and deep wound). Palm Strike is regarded as an offhand attack, so once it is used, you can automatically use a dual attack. After using Palm Strike on an opponent, you have a choice of using (for maximum dmg/condition stacking) Horns/Falling/Twisting in sequence, or just use Twisting Fangs in case your foe is adjacent to his allies. And with only a 10 sec recharge from Palm Strike, the sequence can be repeated quickly. A basic battle using this build goes like this:

-select victim
-cast crit def and crit eye before attacking
-attack using the sequence Palm Strike/Horns/Falling/Twisting
-use Wild blow everytime it recharges to ensure constant Critical Def enchantment
-spam crit eye on every recharge (33 secs at 14 Critical Strikes, well past over the 30 sec recharge)
-use Shadow Ref when needed (+8 regen w/ 9 Shadow Arts and +56 hp when attacking)

Notes & Concerns: This build is kinda cool, as it can beat every single Master NPC in nameless Isle (Master of Hexes/Hammers/Axes/Lightning/Survival/Energy Denial/Healing/Enchantment) without any modification of the skill set. Pretty neat IMO... However, this build's worst enemies are Enchantment Removals and Blinding skills, which removes Critical Defenses and renders Wild Blow useless (respectively). This is evident with the difficulty of beating the Master of Lightning NPC, since it spams Blinding Flash constantly. However, if the Master of Lightning fails to cast blinding flash early in the battle, he will be dead very very quickly. Enchantment removals can be avoided by casting Shadow Refuge as a dummy enchant after casting Crit Def, so that only the Shadow Refuge gets taken off, keeping Crit Def on, and leaving the opponent with a wasted Enchant removal skill.

Also worth noting is that it will help GREATLY if you had a dagger that has a a 20% enchant bonus on it, which will help GUARANTEE your 72% constant blocking Crit Def will stay up when used in conjunction with Wild Blow (provided you are not blinded/enchant shattered/etc..) Also it is recommended that the dagger in use also has a +15% dmg when enchanted, or when hp is above 50%. Add a Zealous attribute on the dagger and you'll be all set...

Additional Notes: Try this build on the NPC's at The Isle Of The Nameless for extra fun...
-Master of Healing and Master of Enchantments can take quite a beating so defeating them will take a bit longer than the others... Eventually they will go down though. ~.^


-Master of Lightning is a bit on the hard side. If he casts Blinding Flash early on you, just retreat. If you manage to land the combo before he casts Blinding Flash again, he's toast.

-Master of Energy Denial is easy as long as you initiate the attack while he's busy casting Quickening Zephyr. Land Palm Strike and Twisting Fangs, then just attack away... He'll go down eventually.

-Master of Axes has shatter enchantment so just cast Shadow Ref first to make him waste the skill, then cast Crit Def and slash away.

-Master of Hammers/Hexes/Survival - easy win ^.^

HAVE FUN!

A/Me 16 in shadow arts and a 15 in dagger masterey

arcane echo
shadow form [E]
shadow ref
golden lotus
golden phoenix
horns of the Ox
Falling spider
Recall (cast it on a monk)

this will allow u not only to stay in combat for good while, but deal good damage, u don't need much HP cause shadow form is good defence Vs all attacks and spells.

@TadaceAce-

1.) There wasn't really any hard armor calculation, just field testing for the deaths, so explain the "mathmatically wrong" part.
2.) Unfortunately the war had +vs. physical armor and that could not be avoided, had I tested a week earlier there would have been no AL bonus.
3.) I do mention if I was attacking, you missed that line apparently.
4.) You also appear to have missed the part about me trying to get the warrior's healing close to the assassin's healing without going /A.

@Spura, show me where I said that you couldn't design an assassin build specifically to tank? I specifically say that builds CAN be designed to tank, but it's not advised.

@Saider maul, I apologize for my shortsightedness on the hit-and-run, I was under the assumption that the elite skill being used for a hit-and-run would be AoD, which would effectively manage most situations. I wont go into the ego argument and we will allow hypocrisy to do its job as it does every day anyway. There are other ways to balance an assassin, they have been posted. Anyway, as for the "void" in teleporting in and out, I guess you misinterpreted me a bit. While the damage may not be as admirable as other classes, I was under the assumption that we were making a comparison of damage between a 'sin that remains in melee and one that uses hit-and-run tactics, where the "void" of the skill recharges remains regardless.

i still consider 3-4 targets along the outer edge of the battle hit and run.
I may not hit 1 target but i stay and kill it then as a sin should go for the next caster.

AoD is nice but like all teleport skills it takes you agro radius, leaving you in casting distance,archer distance,and still without an evade,block,or decent self heal.

the ego comment is derived from constant post against builds without the person spending just 1 of the multitude of skill points and the 5-20 minutes it takes to go try it out.

again i do not say its the best build but it allows a sin to use a standard combo with the capability to stay and finish the job.
My build has mobility, decent damage and durability. I only lack excape and a res.lol :P

Let's just remember that sins are a relativly new class, where as the 6 other classes have been around for a good amount of time.
I think we can expect sin skills to either get nerfed (not that liekly, but if many people complain than it might happen) or boosted (more than likely, as skills are already being boosted)

You're providing anecdotal evidence. Saying "about 30" is not something you can base arguments on when you're trying to persuade with data. You never responded to my response about the relationship between armor and damage taken. Using those numbers, your numbers are actually mathematically wrong.

You used +physical armor for the W, but didn't use +15def for the A. Big mistake when drawing comparisons.

TadaceAce assumed you were using +15def armor, because that would provide a better comparison. You weren't, so the question whether or not you were attacking is irrelevant.

If you wanted to do a proper experiment, you'd have both A and W use the same healing skills. You know, like have both have 9 in Shadow Arts and use shadow refuge every 10 seconds or something.

Just to see for myself, and to defend the name of science, I brought my W and A outside the marketplace and timed how fast I can die. The W lasted between 14 - 21 seconds, and the A lasted 9 - 15. However we can't really say much about my numbers because my W had 30 more hp than my A, so the numbers are tilted towards the W's favor. This is what we do in an experiment: we list all variables.

W ---> with plate, 1peice Knights, maj Vigor, sup Absorb, Victo's Shield. Just stood there taking hits. Out of 5 trials, lasted between 14 and 21 seconds.

A ---> with full +15 while attacking, +30hp daggers. Stood there while attacking and just took hits. Out of five trials, lasted between 9 and 15 seconds.

Forget the different healing spells. Those are called intervening variables and they're unwanted.

My numbers make much more sense to me. They're very in line with the equation I mentioned earlier, except I didn't factor in the 16def Shield in my numbers.

So using the median of my numbers (17.5secs vs. 12secs), I show an Assassin with heavy def armor takes a bit less than 70% more damage than a W with plate and a peice of Knights.

My two cents:

Why should DOT or down time or kill rates even be important. Monks generally have abysmal DOT and kill rates, nothing can out down-time a fire ele, that does not stop people from playing them, and an assassin armor is beats all except ranger and warrior. Just because assassin is largely melee is no reason to compare it to a tank, or run it as one... I mean rangers have been known to tank in a pinch, doesn't mean it is something you would want to build a ranger skill bar around (not that you couldn't). Besides, just because you are not in the middle of the tank action or even actively dealing damage does not mean you are not providing a valuable service, the most effective assassin I ever played with spent most of his time bodyguarding the monks, let me tell you, no one messed with our monks that game, occassionally he would disapear, a foe would die, and the bodyguard was back.

The assassin strength is not damage, despite the ability to do massive amounts of it under the proper circumstances. An assassin's strength is in it's ability to easily get in and out of mobs/backline, no other class can do what the assassin can in this area. Locate the foe that is causing the most difficulties and eliminate it, or at the very least seriously mess with that foe's mojo, thus allowing the rest of your team to do what it does even more effectively. I mean the name kind of says it all no? Assassin! Assassins are sneaky, seldom seen but very deadly, "hello, who are y... oh I'm dead, who was that masked man?" You play in teams for a reason. Anyone who argues that assassins can tank is only saying one thing to me, that they don't know how to play as a functioning part of a team.

Shadow refuge is not a general use heal skill as such, it is best used to give you the extra needed seconds to eliminate that pesky mesmer or monk before you are forced to withdraw.

IMO assassins should be played more like a ranger than a warrior, where you are the arrow, and the arrow is a smart missile, a smart heat-seeking missile. When I play my monk it gives me great ease of mind when I see the little recall icon in the corner of my screen.

Thus concludes my two cents.

Personally, I now run my Sin as a bodyguard! I protect the teams monk, I take out the softer targets in close range so I don't leave my monk open!

If monk is being attacked by a warrior, I will make a call to the team.

I highlight my calls, a double call on a target means the team should help out, as the monk and I can not take them on!

I set up in a way to be able to take out most in a 1-1 situation, except warriors and monks! A good monk should be able to survive a Sin attack until help comes! Warriors soak up too much damage and hit hard.

Staying by your monk, you tend to find they are targeted by Sins fairly quickly, so your first job should be fighting of Sins. Most Sin's do not notice you as they are focused on the monk, so you should be able to take them down quickly!

Next, if your warriors have done their job, they should have engaged their warriors! Your rangers should then offer fire support, to either distract their monks, to keep them from healing their warriors or to help kill their warriors. Casters should also be used to distract or spike damage.

The thing about being a good Sin is not about wading in an tanking, it is about being part of the team! If you are in a good team, you should assign each other roles or even set up smaller teams within the main team!

So on a 8 man team you may have 2 warriors, a necro, a monk, a sin, 2 rangers and a mes as an example. As a sin I would attach myself to the monk, necro and 1 ranger. The warriors would then take the rest. We would not split up! It is just that if I call once then my team should be looking at where I'm going. If I call twice then the whole group come in for support, when possible. The warriors do the same, so a single call is for their team to attack and double is for all of us.

A lot of people think of assassins, like in the films! They work alone and survive by themselves. In GW, this will not work, the healing you have should help you to get back to be healed, but not to self heal! Your not a 1 man/woman army, think that way and you are waiting for someone to rez you!

Yes you can tank to a certain degree, I have had to in the past! But you should not be trying to do that as a rule, if you do, then you may start to lose the support of your monk if they have to rez you too often!

If the team spots a particular enemy who is making it difficult for them, then I get a "Sin, take out the...." call. The necro and ranger cover the monk, until I get back.

It is all about the team, it is not about you. A good Sin is part of a succesful team, a bad Sin is usually, laid face down asking to be rezzed!

This is not to say what you have written is incorrect, as I have mentioned I do tank when in need.

I like my Sin more than any of my other characters, I've spent more time on her and still would choose her for any trips our guild go on! I think I have proven it to my guild that a Sin is a valuable team member, and is versitile enough mix it up a little.

Other tactics, step in lay down conditions on warriors to cause bleeding, which then allows your warriors to cause deep wound and spike dammage. Frustrate their warriors, step in hit them until they focus on you, step out! If they are not a good warrior, they will chase you! While they are chasing you down they are causing no damage to your team! The flexability of your Sin allows you to set up for most situations, you just need to decide what you are setting up for. If you try being generalised then you are not effective enough.

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