PvP Mesmer: Shutdown or Interuptor?
funbun
What o you guys think. I'm try to figure out which one is best for PvP: a shutdown mesmer or an interpution mesmer. What build are you guys using for PvP?
Minwanabi
What's the difference? Interrupting is a way of shutting down casters.. so is energy denial. Usually the two main schools of thoughts on mesmer shut down, although an offshoot is hex stacking behind something along the lines of backfire, although that's more of a one-trick pony that I wouldn't recommend. One convert hexes and you're done.
Morganas
The best "keep the caster from doing anything" mesmer I've used so far uses illusion for conundrum and distortion, domination for diversion, powerblock, power spike, and backfire, and inspiration for power drain and leech signet. Should bring illusion up to 12 or 14, forgot which, to get distortion down to 1 energy. I've found fast casting doesn't benefit interrupt builds (I know it sounds illogical, but trust me, they cast fast enough), so I don't bother with it, beyond spare points.
You can keep a caster completely out of the game with this build. The strategy here is to use conundrum along with interrupts on one character, and when possible backfire some other dude (backfire is pointless on the character you're actually shutting down). It's important for your shutdown build to be able to do more then shut down one character, as otherwise you're just effectively reducing the team size.
You can keep a caster completely out of the game with this build. The strategy here is to use conundrum along with interrupts on one character, and when possible backfire some other dude (backfire is pointless on the character you're actually shutting down). It's important for your shutdown build to be able to do more then shut down one character, as otherwise you're just effectively reducing the team size.
Zeru
Distortion is bad; mesmers are not anti-warriors and shouldn't dabble there for more than say soothing/sympathetic.
The goal of any real mesmer is to severely cripple the ability of 2 casters. Stuff like chaos storm, the power * s diversion, arcane conundrum, etc, are there to do that. I think mesmer energy denial is pretty crappy except for CS, because imo it's just outshined by echo/debil/tf/sq ranger or an echoed fear me warrior.
The goal of any real mesmer is to severely cripple the ability of 2 casters. Stuff like chaos storm, the power * s diversion, arcane conundrum, etc, are there to do that. I think mesmer energy denial is pretty crappy except for CS, because imo it's just outshined by echo/debil/tf/sq ranger or an echoed fear me warrior.
ElderAtronach
How is chaos storm better than say, energy surge/burn? Any smart player will move out of its radius in a matter of a second. With surge and burn you can do 160 pseudo-spike damage and drain them of 20 energy within 1.5 seconds with a decent fast cast. Take mantra of recovery as your elite and you'll recharge those skills in 10 seconds, enough to spike them for close to 160 again. Combine with energy tap and ether feast to keep them at close to zero energy forever. This works better on eles than monks though, but eles aren't dangerous when they don't have mana.
Yukito Kunisaki
Shame
Guilt
Energy Tap
Energy Drain {E}
Arcane Echo
Power Drain
If these skills were cast in rapid fire succession, I'm sure you can literally empty out anyone's energy pool. Funny thing, you can use the energy to do it again.
Guilt
Energy Tap
Energy Drain {E}
Arcane Echo
Power Drain
If these skills were cast in rapid fire succession, I'm sure you can literally empty out anyone's energy pool. Funny thing, you can use the energy to do it again.
mintyfreshnapalm
What about:
Arcane Conundrum
Backfire
Energy Burn
Energy Surge
Power Leak
Power Spike
Power Drain
Energy Tap
This seems like a decent multi caster shutdown. Use Backfire, Burn, and Surge on one caster, then switch to another and Arcane Conundrum to make the interrupts easier. Tap as needed.
Or the classic Fragility, Phantasm, Phantom Pain, Shatter Delusions plus a few interrupts and Tap to piss everyone off. I'm no expert, just experimenting.
Arcane Conundrum
Backfire
Energy Burn
Energy Surge
Power Leak
Power Spike
Power Drain
Energy Tap
This seems like a decent multi caster shutdown. Use Backfire, Burn, and Surge on one caster, then switch to another and Arcane Conundrum to make the interrupts easier. Tap as needed.
Or the classic Fragility, Phantasm, Phantom Pain, Shatter Delusions plus a few interrupts and Tap to piss everyone off. I'm no expert, just experimenting.
rii
Shutdown is the lazy mans..... shutdown. backfire, diversion, apply whenever and probably get a result, since people are stupid - most of the time. However, against people who arent stupid, there are ways around this kind of attack, like hex removal, and patience. Interrupting is harder, its all or nothing whether your going to hit it, but if you theres not a dam thing they can do about it, youve beaten them. aside from contingencies like mantra of resolve and mantra of concentration.
So if your prepared to put in the effort to be good at interrupting, do it, since you get results more. I dont think its good to assume your enemies are stupid, cause if theyre not your screwed
, or at least not as efficient.
So if your prepared to put in the effort to be good at interrupting, do it, since you get results more. I dont think its good to assume your enemies are stupid, cause if theyre not your screwed
, or at least not as efficient.
OneArmedScissor
I have played both Mesmer and Ranger interruptor. Pretty damn good at it I might add. But leave the interrupting to the Rangers. Why is this one might ask.
Mesmer interrupting skills are damn good, I'll give them that. But these skills have relatively long recharge times. Take this for an example:
You're focusing on interrupting a monk. You first cast Migrane. You interrupt his skills with the standard interruption skills (Leech Signet, Cry of Frustration, etc. etc.), cast backfire on him, and move on to next target. Seems to be good, correct? The answer is bitter sweet. After you cast your interruption skills, you're basically completely useless to your team for 15-20 seconds while you're waiting for those specific skills to recharge. Thus, you're not being an efficient team mate when you aren't doing anything but attacking with your wand for those 15-20 seconds. And once those skills recharge again, the whole process repeats itself.
Mesmer interrupting skills are damn good, I'll give them that. But these skills have relatively long recharge times. Take this for an example:
You're focusing on interrupting a monk. You first cast Migrane. You interrupt his skills with the standard interruption skills (Leech Signet, Cry of Frustration, etc. etc.), cast backfire on him, and move on to next target. Seems to be good, correct? The answer is bitter sweet. After you cast your interruption skills, you're basically completely useless to your team for 15-20 seconds while you're waiting for those specific skills to recharge. Thus, you're not being an efficient team mate when you aren't doing anything but attacking with your wand for those 15-20 seconds. And once those skills recharge again, the whole process repeats itself.
Yukito Kunisaki
I like energy stealing. With the right skills, you can reduce even the largest energy pool that an ele is using to maybe 2 big spellcasts tops...
I think it works to steal energy from spell casters to render them helpless for a little bit and use that energy to render non-casters less damaging.
A system that works quite well if your foe has the energy to steal. However, I've been in fights where I find myself stealing from warriors cause I kept spamming energy drain on every caster... bah...
I think it works to steal energy from spell casters to render them helpless for a little bit and use that energy to render non-casters less damaging.
A system that works quite well if your foe has the energy to steal. However, I've been in fights where I find myself stealing from warriors cause I kept spamming energy drain on every caster... bah...
OneArmedScissor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki
I like energy stealing. With the right skills, you can reduce even the largest energy pool that an ele is using to maybe 2 big spellcasts tops...
I think it works to steal energy from spell casters to render them helpless for a little bit and use that energy to render non-casters less damaging.
A system that works quite well if your foe has the energy to steal. However, I've been in fights where I find myself stealing from warriors cause I kept spamming energy drain on every caster... bah...
One of the best energy denial spells is Spirit Shackles. Spirit Shackles own rangers. Cast Spirit Shackles, then cast Mind Wreck. Move to next target and repeat since both skills have a relatively fast recharge time.
I think it works to steal energy from spell casters to render them helpless for a little bit and use that energy to render non-casters less damaging.
A system that works quite well if your foe has the energy to steal. However, I've been in fights where I find myself stealing from warriors cause I kept spamming energy drain on every caster... bah...
One of the best energy denial spells is Spirit Shackles. Spirit Shackles own rangers. Cast Spirit Shackles, then cast Mind Wreck. Move to next target and repeat since both skills have a relatively fast recharge time.
funbun
What does spirit shackles do?
rii
you loose 5 energy every time you attack
Third Quarter
If you want to interrupt the crap out of everything you see, you need a Ranger.
Mesmers interrupts are much more precious, but they are much more vicious in nature. They are best saved for partularly opportune moments.
Getting hit with a single Power Block is usually enough. (Power Leak is nasty too)
Mesmers interrupts are much more precious, but they are much more vicious in nature. They are best saved for partularly opportune moments.
Getting hit with a single Power Block is usually enough. (Power Leak is nasty too)
Yukito Kunisaki
I can't appreciate Spirit Shackles enough to actually even consider using it.
Warriors can still rip you to pieces using ONLY adrenaline skills. Battle Rage with hammer/axe anyone?
Rangers have a big enough energy pool to actually just empty into your own using Energy Drain {E}.
Faintheartedness + Enfeeble = negligible Warrior or Ranger
Sure they can be fixed with Remove Hex/Mend Ailment but until they are, that combo is pretty much perfect.
Warriors can still rip you to pieces using ONLY adrenaline skills. Battle Rage with hammer/axe anyone?
Rangers have a big enough energy pool to actually just empty into your own using Energy Drain {E}.
Faintheartedness + Enfeeble = negligible Warrior or Ranger
Sure they can be fixed with Remove Hex/Mend Ailment but until they are, that combo is pretty much perfect.
Vermilion Okeanos
Hex Shutdown : usually involve using hex... therefore, can be counter when hex are being pressure. Easier to use and to put to full effect. No matter how fast their spell cast, you still can stop them.
Interrupt : usually involve in timing, it is not as easily countered as using hex to shutdown. While not being a hex, it still can do many similiar things like the hex. Harder to use. There are some spells that are too fast to be interrupt by human reflex + lag.
Exceptions : there are certain skills that does not work like typical hex nor does it work like interrupt or it can even be both at the same time.. for example, blackout and powerblock. They are things that can become very effective but usually come with a price tag.
When an interrupt mesemer vs a hex shutdown mesemer... usually the one with interrupt will win...
It is a good idea to mix them up.
Personally, I am a fan of interrupt... nothing beat the satisfaction when you power spike someone' else's power spike... although... usually involve a little luck @_@
Interrupt : usually involve in timing, it is not as easily countered as using hex to shutdown. While not being a hex, it still can do many similiar things like the hex. Harder to use. There are some spells that are too fast to be interrupt by human reflex + lag.
Exceptions : there are certain skills that does not work like typical hex nor does it work like interrupt or it can even be both at the same time.. for example, blackout and powerblock. They are things that can become very effective but usually come with a price tag.
When an interrupt mesemer vs a hex shutdown mesemer... usually the one with interrupt will win...
It is a good idea to mix them up.
Personally, I am a fan of interrupt... nothing beat the satisfaction when you power spike someone' else's power spike... although... usually involve a little luck @_@
Kishin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki
I can't appreciate Spirit Shackles enough to actually even consider using it.
Warriors can still rip you to pieces using ONLY adrenaline skills. Battle Rage with hammer/axe anyone?
Rangers have a big enough energy pool to actually just empty into your own using Energy Drain {E}.
Faintheartedness + Enfeeble = negligible Warrior or Ranger
Sure they can be fixed with Remove Hex/Mend Ailment but until they are, that combo is pretty much perfect. Spirit Shackles will shut a Ranger down better than a drain will, as it will keep their energy locked at 0 until its removed. I'm not sure I could justify bringing it either, but I'm just pointing that out.
As far as Faintheartedness + Enfeeble goes, yeah, the Faintheartedness part can be a gouge and is only somewhat mitigated by TF, but really, there are Ranger types that don't particularly care how much damage they're doing. It certainly doesn't bother me to be hit with Weakness: Choking Gas still effects targets no matter how much damage is done, and well, Debilitating Shot doesn't even do damage, so....
Faintheartedness seems to be a pretty rare choice for random PvP (I've never been hit with it there) where it will do the most damage due to bad hex removal, and in organized PvP, there's better hex removal and of course, the fact that Nature's Renewal means you may as well not even bring hexes, to contend with.
Warriors can still rip you to pieces using ONLY adrenaline skills. Battle Rage with hammer/axe anyone?
Rangers have a big enough energy pool to actually just empty into your own using Energy Drain {E}.
Faintheartedness + Enfeeble = negligible Warrior or Ranger
Sure they can be fixed with Remove Hex/Mend Ailment but until they are, that combo is pretty much perfect. Spirit Shackles will shut a Ranger down better than a drain will, as it will keep their energy locked at 0 until its removed. I'm not sure I could justify bringing it either, but I'm just pointing that out.
As far as Faintheartedness + Enfeeble goes, yeah, the Faintheartedness part can be a gouge and is only somewhat mitigated by TF, but really, there are Ranger types that don't particularly care how much damage they're doing. It certainly doesn't bother me to be hit with Weakness: Choking Gas still effects targets no matter how much damage is done, and well, Debilitating Shot doesn't even do damage, so....
Faintheartedness seems to be a pretty rare choice for random PvP (I've never been hit with it there) where it will do the most damage due to bad hex removal, and in organized PvP, there's better hex removal and of course, the fact that Nature's Renewal means you may as well not even bring hexes, to contend with.
rii
No, inspiration builds always have space left over, so bring spirit shackles. Youll stop a ranger dead (useful in the meta atm), and while you wont completely stop a warrior due to adrenaline, you will stop anything else he has, e.g. monk secondary: res, ji, healing, prot. He wont be able to do it without stopping attacking and standing around for about 30 seconds for regen.
NIB
Rangers can deny energy much more efficient than mesmers IMO. And they can even interupt better(echo+choking?). What mesmers can do better is disable all enemy skills. Signet of humility, diversion, arcane thievery, powerblock and maybe a backfire just to put some extra pressure on the enemy. Blackout+echo is also decent(but its better to have a warrior/me do this combo) since you can leave an enemy without any skills for 24 consequtive secs(if done right).
Going heavy on hexes isnt smart with all this nature's renewal spamming.
Going heavy on hexes isnt smart with all this nature's renewal spamming.
rii
meh. rangers are good at spamming lots of crappy interrupt actions. e.g. punishing shot. +17 aint bad, but im not going to wet myself and run down the road screaming judgement day hath come. power spike, does around 100 with runes, and that is good. Mesmers rely on quality, not quantity. Rangers are the other way around. Power block > rangers though. The other point of course is mesmer interruptors can take two targets with reasonable success, whereas rangers usually have to stick on the one.
OneArmedScissor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki
I can't appreciate Spirit Shackles enough to actually even consider using it.
Warriors can still rip you to pieces using ONLY adrenaline skills. Battle Rage with hammer/axe anyone?
Rangers have a big enough energy pool to actually just empty into your own using Energy Drain {E}.
Faintheartedness + Enfeeble = negligible Warrior or Ranger
Sure they can be fixed with Remove Hex/Mend Ailment but until they are, that combo is pretty much perfect. Most ridiculous statement I've heard.
Spirit Shackles is simply an all around good skill. It only costs 10 energy, lasts for over 20 seconds with a decent Inspiration level, and has a relatively fast recharge time. Spirit Shackles will completely shut down almost every Ranger. I always bring Spirit Shackles to shut down, energy wise, any person and especially Rangers.
If you ever see a monk attacking with his staff or wand, cast Spirit Shackles on him and it is quite devistating. By the time the monk realizes what's on him, he's already attacked 3 or 4 times. Consequently losing 15 to 20 energy.
Spirit Shackles is the cast and forget energy denial skill.
"Warriors can still rip you to pieces using ONLY adrenaline skills. Battle Rage with hammer/axe anyone?"
Why would I cast Spirit Shackles on a Warrior when there are way better targets??? Your example is flawed because a warrior is going to be the last thing I cast Spirit Shackles on.
Faintheartedness? Please. I wouldn't even waste my time with a DOT spell that only does 3 degen. at lvl 12 curses.
Insidious Parasite+Enfeeble is better IMO.
Warriors can still rip you to pieces using ONLY adrenaline skills. Battle Rage with hammer/axe anyone?
Rangers have a big enough energy pool to actually just empty into your own using Energy Drain {E}.
Faintheartedness + Enfeeble = negligible Warrior or Ranger
Sure they can be fixed with Remove Hex/Mend Ailment but until they are, that combo is pretty much perfect. Most ridiculous statement I've heard.
Spirit Shackles is simply an all around good skill. It only costs 10 energy, lasts for over 20 seconds with a decent Inspiration level, and has a relatively fast recharge time. Spirit Shackles will completely shut down almost every Ranger. I always bring Spirit Shackles to shut down, energy wise, any person and especially Rangers.
If you ever see a monk attacking with his staff or wand, cast Spirit Shackles on him and it is quite devistating. By the time the monk realizes what's on him, he's already attacked 3 or 4 times. Consequently losing 15 to 20 energy.
Spirit Shackles is the cast and forget energy denial skill.
"Warriors can still rip you to pieces using ONLY adrenaline skills. Battle Rage with hammer/axe anyone?"
Why would I cast Spirit Shackles on a Warrior when there are way better targets??? Your example is flawed because a warrior is going to be the last thing I cast Spirit Shackles on.
Faintheartedness? Please. I wouldn't even waste my time with a DOT spell that only does 3 degen. at lvl 12 curses.
Insidious Parasite+Enfeeble is better IMO.
Kishin
Quote:
Originally Posted by rii
Show me a Mesmer that can interrupt a target 7 consecutive times, while you're at it, as that's what a Ranger can do with TF and Choking Gas. Furthermore, Incendiary Arrows allows a Ranger to keep up a stream of constant interrupts on both skills and spells. Anything with a 2 second or greater cast is also ripe for Distracting Shot.
I will agree with you, however, on two points: 1) Power Block, and 2) A Mesmer is far better equipped to tackle two targets than a Ranger, whose interrupts and tied to his attacks and thereby his target.
I dunno, maybe we agree in some regard, in that Rangers have the quantity of interrupts advantage, by far. Mesmer interrupts are based off hitting the target at just right moment, whereupon they ruin his or her day completely.
I wouldn't call what Rangers do 'spamming large quantities of crappy interrupts though.'
Quote:
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Originally Posted by OneArmedScissors
Faintheartedness? Please. I wouldn't even waste my time with a DOT spell that only does 3 degen. at lvl 12 curses
Its not the Degen that he's praising about Faintheartedness. Its the fact that it reduces attack rate by 50%. Either way, I still haven't seen it in heavy use in places where it would be dangerous.
rii
punishing shot was an example. for the rest, true.
the quantity over quality was a generalisation more than anything.
Winterclaw
Funbun, as a monk you should know that monk casting times are pretty quick... so if you want to be anti monk, go with a shut down or energy drain like Yukito suggested... that's just my opinion though. My Me is a healer.
funbun
I have 4 characters. My monk is for farming. My Mesmer, Big Daddy Mayhem, is for Arenas.
gimpysonofgroin
Anyone use concussion shot? I personally think is hillarious actually nailing a healer (tricky) or an ele (pretty easy, long cast times) and seeing the dazed effect kick in. Semi-permanent interrupting is pretty damn good. Of course concussion is expensive but with decent expertise I manage to offset it well enough.
My 2 cents 
Limp Wrist
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeru
Distortion is bad; mesmers are not anti-warriors and shouldn't dabble there for more than say soothing/sympathetic.
The goal of any real mesmer is to severely cripple the ability of 2 casters. Stuff like chaos storm, the power * s diversion, arcane conundrum, etc, are there to do that. I think mesmer energy denial is pretty crappy except for CS, because imo it's just outshined by echo/debil/tf/sq ranger or an echoed fear me warrior. With respect, you clearly don't play a Mesmer in the Random PvP Arena very often. Because, well this is a biased oppinion but not so much oppinion really, Mesmers make the best tanks in the game. Combine Spirit of Failure with Distortion and you have a spamable evasion engine that can earn you energy each time an opponant misses you. There is little risk to Stance removal abilities since Distortion recharges so quickly. And the more warriors on you means the more energy you're going to gain. A good mesmer has these both on his bar in any PvP situation. Let's not even talk about Empathy being thrown in the mix to drop your attackers heath. Or even Shatter Enchantment to kick that W/Mo in the teeth when he thinks he's being crafty by bringing Healing Breeze with him. funbun
Yeah, I've seen memsers in PvP, "LFG, I'm a professional distractor."
OneArmedScissor
Quote:
Its not the Degen that he's praising about Faintheartedness. Its the fact that it reduces attack rate by 50%. Either way, I still haven't seen it in heavy use in places where it would be dangerous.
I understand why he would be using this, but it's not efficient at all. -2 or -3 degen for the cost of 10 energy? Simply not worth it. The reason why you haven't seen it heavily used is because there are better skills out there.
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