Armor v Aftershock - Confuzzling

Hello,

I was wondering if any of you could explain to me a problem that appeared while I was fighting a Sand Drake with a friend.

Friend is a Warrior/Elementalist:

Knight's Helm
Platemail Cuirass
Platemail Leggings
Knight's Gauntlets
Knight's Boots

16 Armor Shield of the Wing (No Dmg absorption on Shield)

I'm a Warrior/Elementalist:

Platemail Helm
Platemail Cuirass (Rune of Major Absorption)
Platemail Leggings
Platemail Gauntlets
Platemail Boots

16 Eternal Shield (No Dmg absorption on Shield)

---

Sand Drake uses Aftershock:

My friend takes 50 dmg.
I take 54 dmg.
(52 with a pair of Knight's Gauntlets).

Sand Drake uses Aftershock while we use our Healing Signets (-40 Armor):

My friend takes 74 dmg.
I take 104 dmg.
(102 with a pair of Knight's Gauntlets).

---

Ignoring Runes, and the Knight's innate Absorption bonus, the dmg difference
really, really confuses me.

I know that only one piece of Knight's will give an active Absorption bonus, and that they don't stack (aside from Absorption Runes), and even if they did, double dmg while using Signet of Healing (-40 armor) is too much, isn't it?

No other spells were used other than Signet of Healing, and our weapons
don't have Damage reduction or the like.

Could someone explain this to me..?

Thank you.

Sand Drake don't really like you I guess.. I think you've surely missed something, since this is just not possible. There is nothing that would make your friend to take less damage.

You should do the test more than once because like actual players ,monsters don't deal the same dmg everytime. You might have been max dmg hit from the drake and your friend wasn't. Do it 10times each, then take a average.

Hello,

Thank you for the fast responses.

Yes, I thought it wasn't possible either. I checked the Patch notes to
see if anything they updated could have contributed to this. But
no go.

We tried it several times as well, before I posted this, just to make
sure.

My friend was damaged for 74 damage, consecutively, while using
Healing Signet and getting hit by Aftershock.

Damaged for 50 by Aftershock without using Healing Signet.

I tried it myself while Grouped, and after they left.

54 Damage each time I waited for Aftershock to hit;
52 with Knight's Gauntlet equipped.

104 Damage each time I waited for Aftershock to hit while
I used Healing Signet;
102 with Knight's Gauntlet equipped.

Adding up the Armor Levels of each of the Armor pieces,
I should have received less damage, since I have more
Armor (without Bonuses), right? And from what I understand,
Knight's armor, with or without all the Pieces, only gives
-2 Damage reduction.

My friend's results seem more reasonable than the damage
I've received (-40 Armor while using Healing Signet).

Shield direction, how Aftershock affects bodyparts, etc.
are things I've thought about as well, but I don't believe
they really affect how spell damage is calculated, do they..?

Could anyone else help..?

Thank you again.

Eh, I'm one of the few that do contest that knights damage absorb stacks. Just go out and fight a mage with your buddy thats wearing full plate and you wearing full knights.. guarantee the plate will take more damage.

Thank you for the reply.

Even if the Knight Absorption does stack, it wouldn't give 30 damage
reduction.

My friend also only had 3 Knight Pieces on.

were any of you wearing absorption runes?

Yes, I have a Major Absorption on my Plate Cuirass, -2 dmg. If I equip the
Knight's Gloves, it totals -4 dmg.

My friend has either a Minor or Major, not Superior. -1 or -2, along with the
Knight absorption, -4 dmg total.

I know that some people believe that Knight Absorption stacks:

-6 dmg for three pieces of Knight's Armor + Minor *or* Major Absorption =

-7 or -8 dmg.

yea, but you also must remember that when your AC is lowered, damage goes up with a percent. So that -40 ac against your AL may = more damage percent after the reduction and all that for your friend.. -shrugs- I dunno myself, cause I don't know the game mechanics by heart

Keep in mind that you have a different % chance of taking the blow on a dfferent armor piece. Higher chances on your chest and legs than on your head, feet and arms. The different amount of damage could mean he took it on the chest while you took it in the foot, thus the application of your absorbtion rune (which I think only applies to the piece its on) would have come into play.

My friend is the one who's receiving less damage than I am though.

My friend has 415 Armor Total from two pieces of Platemail,
and 3 pieces of Knight's Armor.

I have 425 total with five pieces of Platemail..

Friend's Armor during Healing Signet: 375
My Armor during Healing Signet: 385

So Aftershock does more damage based on percentage of Reduction, and
deals more damage to me since I have a higher Armor Level..?

Thank you for your suggestions though.

Does anyone else know why this happens..?

Or has this ever happened to anyone before..?

Thank you again.

Edit: Sorry for Double Post.

To: Shandoo Bilari

Thanks for replying.

My absorption rune is on my chest, and I haven't received more
than 52 damage yet (Or 104 damage during Healing Signet).

I tried it several times, both of us when the Sand Drake used
Aftershock.

I tried several times afterwards, thinking that Aftershock might
have hit different spots on their armor like you suggested. But
I've always had 52/104.

Which is just weird.

I can only assume that we were getting hit in the same places,
since it was consistent. No other damage numbers.

Was either 50/74 for them or 52/104 for me.

Just to be sure, though I think this is already assumed, you both are the same level, correct?

Yes, we're both level 20.

While trying to figure this out, came upon this thread:

http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showt...hlight=Shields

So my Major Absorption isn't really working..

I only get the -2 Dmg Reduction when I equip Knight's Gauntlets.

Are any other skills being used in the interum such as "Watch Yourself" or Secondary skills to reduce damage, or perhaps a mod on a weapon that gives + armor?

Runes are global to your whole body. There has been much debate however over whether or not the dmg absorption in knights is global or only local to the the piece it's on.

Good call, never played a War extensivly. *Writes in Note Pad*

No other spells were used. We did try Conjure Lightning on a single Drake,
but I don't think that would have any effect on dmg we receive.

According to the other thread I linked, Absorption Runes only affect
'Attacks'; Knight Armor should only affect 'Attacks' as well from the
explanation given, but it seems that it acts more like the Shields'
Damage Reduction, which is for all types of Damage.

That would explain why my friend received 50 Damage, while
I received 52 Damage (With no Knight's) against Aftershock (Non-Attack).

What I just noticed, however, is that while using Healing Signet,
my friend received 74 damage, and I received 104 damage.

74 Damage would make sense with -40 Armor, I would think.

104 Damage being twice the amount of Damage I received.

I created my character before Healing Signet was Patched from
'Double Damage while using this Signet' to '-40 Armor while using
this Signet.'

Right now I'm thinking there might be some kind of Bug..?

For info, though I don't think it's relevant here, armour doesn't work like that. Armour in GW is locational. Apparently, "auto-hit" (as opposed to damage you could potentially dodge) damage will always strike the chest piece.

A search on "calculating damage" or "damage calculation" might throw more light.

Yes.. I'm sure I confused a lot of people with that particular post,
including myself.

I was trying to understand what some people meant by Damage Percentage
increasing with reduction to the Armor Level.. Thought it would make
more sense if I had a Total to look at, since the Healing Signet only says
-40 to Armor.

I'll try looking up some calculations in the meantime. Thank you.

Edit: Typos.

When you use Healing Signet, the Armor Rating of each piece of armor you are wearing is reduced by 40. So, if you insist on totalling up your armor, then think about it as Healing Signet reducing your total armor by 40 * (leg,hand,feet,chest,head) = -200.

But armor does not work that way. When u get hit for dmg by anything, only one part of your body is hit and that is the armor used for the dmg calculations.

Assuming you get hit in the chest since it is auto-hit, what you should do is look at the Armor rating of your chest piece (I do not know Warrior armor but I will just guess and say 80...feel free to correct).

When you use Healing Signet, the armor rating gets reduced by 40, so your 80 armor would become 40.

More significant is that the damage done by creatures is based upon a Armor of 60. So if Aftershock says it should do 100 points of damage, then if it hits something with 60-armor, that something will take 100 damage. Also, the damage formula is structured so that for every 40-armor difference from 60, the dmg will be doubled/halved.

So if you have 20 armor, the Aftershock will do 200 dmg and if you had 100 armor, the dmg would only be 50. Again bear in mind I am making these dmg numbers up.

So the fact that your dmg doubled makes perfect sense. Your armor decreased by 40, causing 2x the dmg according to the equations. What I don't know is why your friend's dmg did not double too. Does he perhaps have something that increases his resistance to elemental damage?

Thank you Dazzler.

It makes sense now, I think.

I didn't think my friend had any kind of additional defense or extra protection
against Earth Dmg, or if there was such a thing for Warriors, but I'll
have to check with them again when they log on.

I'll post again when I find out.

Thanks again everyone.

A link for those who are interested in Healing Signets:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=20977

You don't total the AL either - the AL is only for the piece in question. Thus you apply the damage vs the piece. Shields only protect against some angles of attack? Maybe one of you was getting a shield benefit and the other wasn't?

That would make almost exacty that difference: 16 AL difference results in a reduction of damage by 24.22% (2^-0.4=~0.7579) so that would change the 50 damage your friend sufferred into 100 during the healing signet - if however you then reduce by a shield's AL you'd get 76 damage, minus 2 for the absorption would land you at 74. This requires that the absorption be applied twice though in the calculations; once to figure out the non healing signet damage, and once again after the healing signet damage. It is also puzzling why he gets a shield reduction and you don't, and why his shield is only kicking in during the healing signet part, but the amounts are about right for a shield at 16 AL to be the dfifference.

I worked for ages just now trying to match a model to the damages, but I couldn't make one using the accepted game mechanics and the data available - it seems to require that absorptions get counted more than once when a healing signet is active, and some odd rounding (prehaps you aren't actually being dealt 54 damage but 53.7 for example, and your friend is being dealt 49.9) - I can get some pretty accurate matches but they require throwing out much of what has been written, so eeither the mechanics behind the knight's armour reductions have been changed or I am failing to make good models:

e.g. (this is an example of one of the models I was trying): Aftershock at level 12 deals 85 damage (+/- a half point I suspect - these variables make it harder, as we don't know the exact damage)

85 AL on both your chests reduce damage to 64.84%, or with no runes/absorption about 55.11 damage. If the runes/knights reduction stack and your friend has a major rune, and if these reductions are now applied before the damage is calculated it fits beautifully - you suffer (85-2)*.6484 = 53.8 or 54 damage; he suffers (85-8)*.6484=49.92 damage, or 50 damage. Adding a pair of knights gauntlets to yours makes it (85-4)*.6484=52.52 which would round badly, but if in fact the damage is 84.8 as base damage from aftershock (or something similar) the numbers still all work out, and you land on your magic 52 damage with your knight's gloves and rune.

This requires that they all stack though, and that the damage reduction is now applied before the armour reduction - which is contrary to Ensign's earlier work, so I have trouble accetping it. It would also require that the damage absorption was applied differently after a healing signet, which could be an error (using old code instead of new code in that calculation for example) if they have recently changed the way that absorption works.

Well, more testing could illuminate some interesting effects; Ensign, care to enlighten us? I am stuck at work and can't do more than theorise atm, and I don't have a PvE warrior at present.

Ok. I have read tons of posts on armor for warriors and still have not seen a straight answer. Probably because no one knows for sure. What is the best armor set if you get the whole set without adding mods? Is the very best a throw up set of different sets? I for one would want to wear a straight set instead of something that looks like I've stripped off of many dead warriors over the years. In fact, I may just get platemail and be done with it.

Wow.. That's a lot of work.

I'll leave it to the mathematicians to reply to the second half of your post.

As for the Shield reduction, I was under the impression that only -Dmg mods
on Shields apply to Spell damage.

I also tried facing every which way with my shield equipped while having
the Drake cast Aftershock, even though I read it only blocks attacks
that are in front of you.

I went back in a few minutes ago, and cast 'Watch Yourself!' on me.

Following Dazzler's explanation, and if Watch Yourself works like Healing
Signet in terms of the Armor adjustment, I should have had 105 Armor
for my Chest when the spell hit.

The Drake's Aftershock did 37 dmg to me, which fits in with the equation,
sort of.

20 AL (140dmg) Estimate
45 AL (104dmg) During Healing Signet
60 AL (70dmg)
85 AL (52dmg) Without Healing Signet
105 AL (37dmg) With Watch Yourself!

Would that make sense..?

Edit: To Count Feanor -

Several players who have played the game through will probably say
a mix of Armors is the best choice, but most players will give the
very reason you just gave and opt for a complete set of one type
of armor, because of appearances, which is fine as well. As long
as you're satisfied with the results.

Watch yourself makes more sense than the shield, it gets around the need to have the absorption apply twice. 74 is double the 37, so watch youself would work nicely in this model - you damage at 60 though is off, it should read:

20 AL (166dmg) Estimate
45 AL (104dmg) During Healing Signet
60 AL (81dmg)
65 AL (74dmg) During Healing Signet and Watch Yourself!
85 AL (52dmg) Without Healing Signet
105 AL (37dmg) With Watch Yourself!

This fits the model of the absorption rune and knights stacking, applied to base damage before the armour reduction. Still not sure how your freind was taking 50 damage unless the knights bits stack with each other, but then I am at a loss as to how he hit 74 (like you would) during a healing signet.

Could you describe what you were using with the 37 damage (did you have the knights gloves on or off? what's the difference?), and try to get the healing signet up with Watch Yourself!? That would allow us to know a bit more about where the reductions take place.

With Watch Yourself! and Healing Signet active during Aftershock,
I receive 73 dmg, without any Knight pieces on.
71 dmg with Knight's Gloves.

I just found out that my friend was using Lieutenant's Helm, not
Knight's Helm though, and with the numbers you just put in for
60AL, I think things make more sense.

These are new damage numbers they received:

50 dmg
78 dmg
102 dmg

Assuming that spells are no longer Auto-Hit, Aftershock can target
any of the body parts.

50 dmg would make sense for either the chest, legs, feet, or hands.

If Healing Signet was timed wrong, it might have seemed like they
were receiving different dmg numbers, but in reality, they were
getting dmged by Aftershock in the Head. Lieutenant's Helm,
which is 60AL. (78 dmg)

If that's true, then I was wrong about the 74, when instead it
was 78.

With Healing Signet active, 102 dmg on chest/legs would be the
same as the dmg I had (With Knight's).