Runes and -hp penalty.

Lets switch it up a bit. Dont make it such a big penalty.
-25 for major, -40 for superior.

nuff said.

I disagree... because then you could have people having 2 to 3 superior runes for very little health penalty... Less than half of 2 superiors now, actually. So, I'll say let's leave it the way it is.

-"Lets switch it up a bit. Dont make it such a big penalty.
-25 for major, -40 for superior."
Once you start tweaking with this, the hue and cry will be "- 40 is too much of a penalty, make it - 10!

Best to let that sleeping dog lie.
You want the bonus? You take the hit.

But everyone will be able to and thus balancing itself out in the end.

I will never understand why everyone wants to make this game even easier. Do people nowadays not enjoy the thrill of *gasp* a challenge.

What would this add to gameplay? Making using Superior runes even more brainless?

The -75 health on Superior runes is fine, they're used extensively even with that hit. Now Majors, they should have their health hit lowered. It's completely out of proportion, if you'd want to use a major (an additional +1 for -50 health), grabbing another +1 for only 25 health is brainless. Hence, all major runes are trash. Drop them down to, say, -25 health and you might actually see one used on occasion.

Peace,
-CxE

The -50 health has always boggled my mind. With such a large penalty for +1, it's no wonder only the foolish use these. Dropping the hit to -25 for major would likely be the simplest change that yields the greatest benefits. It would add several elements to the game (major vs sup rune strategy, major rune trading for example).

There are many things in GW that makes me wonder what was going on when it was designed (alcohol/drug binge? Leaving the 8 y/o autistic nephew in charge?) and this fits right in there. [Note: I say this because GW simultaneously displays brilliance and utter stupidity within. It's a wonderful love/hate relationship I've got going.]

I think runes should give you +HP and vigors should give you ++HP(exponential. i.e. turns your 210 HP into 420 hp)...this way any brainless twack of a monkey could complete this game with their eyes closed.

I disagree with that major runes are trash, it just (as everything else) depends on your build. Now I have not gotten that far yet, as I only have a few minor runes sofar, but I assume they work with the same principle as minor runes.

With that said, with major runes you can have two attributes at +2 instead of one attribute at +3 by using a single superior rune for only loosing 25 health more. So that is theoretically two attribute at 14, instead of 1 at 15 and 1 at 12. (I am ignoring all non-rune ways to increase attribute past 12.)

Which is better? Well that really depends on your build, some rely on getting a single skill as high as possible while others benefit on a more even spread.

The break even point, is exactly at a loss of 150 HP. I do not know if that loss of 150 HP is desirable, but that is not my point. It leads to being able to have 2 attributes at +3, or 3 skills at +2. Both ways increase attributes with 6 points in total.

Edit: Tried to edit 'skills' into 'attributes' as they should have been. Silly me

Majors are useless. A superior is -75 for 2 points, or -37 for each point. Therefore, the Major should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 35-40, in my humble opinion; -25 is too low (unless superiors were -50).

i would never use anything other than i minor due to the -HP, but i like it because you have to sacrifce a little for extra power which makes some people think twice

Math time: if minors are free, and Sup runes are -75, then getting +2 +2 for a total of 4 points costs 100hp, vs a -75, -0 for a 3/1 with sup and minor.

The only use for majors is hp tweaking with prot spirit or bond.

then maybe we should have +HP from runes instead

That math doesn't work out because you're ignoring the free minor rune you get with using a superior rune for one stat and no health loser for the other stat. It's not +3 for 75 or +2/+2 for 100, it's actually +3/+1 for 75 or +2/+2 for 100.

If you were willing to spend the 100 for +2/+2, you can get 25 more health by using the +3/+1 instead and swapping your natural point allocations. Furthermore, if the two stats you are bumping are to different totals, then you lose no attribute points, or might even gain attribute points for doing this. For example, instead of having 11+2/10+2, using 10+3/11+1 results in the same stats for the same cost but more hp. Or instead of having 12+2/10+2 using 11+3/11+1 results in having the same stats for less cost and more hp.

Even if you were going for 12+2+1(headgear)/12+2, which is probably what you are thinking of with major runes you can do the same thing by using 12+1+1 and 12+3 with superior and minor and get the same stats with more hp.

If we are going to talk about three stats like in your 150hp example, the computations pretty much always go in favor of sup runes. Take the standard 11/10/10. If you go 11+2/10+2/10+2, you can get the same effect by instead going 10+3/9+3/11+1, and have the same hp and stats, but with a whole bunch more attribute points to spend there or elsewhere. Using less even starting stats will only favor superior runes more, like in my example above.

So, in conclusion, major runes suck. I'm having a great deal of difficulty thinking of a single point distribution using major runes that can't be done better by superior runes (unless you're hp tweaking like the guy above me said).

EDIT: Actually, I'm fairly sure there are no point distributions achievable with major runes that can't be done cheaper without them. So yeah, they literally have no use unless you actually want your hp lower (for various reasons).

When this was first designed, majors came with a -50 HP hit and superiors with a -100 HP hit. It was later decided that a -100 HP hit was too extreme for an item that was supposed to be both rare and valuable, and the hit was dropped to -75 HP. Major runes were not similarly adjusted and the results are what we see now - a completely useless class of runes.


I'm getting tired of the vague 'it depends on your build' non-argument. There are solid mathematical and strategic reasons why major runes are utter trash, and that there might be some one in a million build out there (that no one can even name) that might want to use a major does not change that. In every known situation, some combination of minor and superior runes will outperform a build using majors. Period.

Minor runes exist. +1 attribute helms exist. Those must be taken into account when discussing majors and superiors. Even if you want an even spread of high-level attributes, you're better off using some combination of superiors, minors, and base attribute tweaking. *THIS IS THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM WITH MAJOR RUNES*


Major runes need to outperform superior runes in situations where you want multiple high level attributes, not just a single one - they simply will not do that if the cost per point is the same. Just look at the 15/14 or 14/14 situations, where even at the same health costs superiors and majors would both suffice. Those are attribute setups that should scream for majors and simply don't.

A superior rune should represent an even greater commitment to a single attribute line than a major, at a greater cost, when it simply does not. The cost, per point, of using a superior rune should thus be higher than using a major. This would drive people to use superior runes only when they really wanted to max out a single attribute - otherwise they would use majors to spread their points around and save on health. More importantly, even for a single-attribute user, a -0/-25/-75 configuration allows arguments to be made for every level, while even a -0/-35/-75 would drive people to the extremes.

I'd wager that even at a -25 health hit on majors, superior runes used in competitive PvP would still outnumber majors. There are simply too many builds that want to max out particular attribute lines, and the health hit just isn't going to be the breaking point. You would, however, see majors becoming popular with Monks (who are lothe to sacrifice their defense with all the fire they take) and Rangers (who need to spread attributes around to maintain effectiveness).


Superiors are better for that as well. Though I guess there's a use for majors when you're doing crazy rune stacking at low levels, letting you fine tune your HP a bit better - at level 20 you just want to take the 5 supers.


Well, there are theoretical points where majors might be better. You might not want more than one additional attribute level above minors to hit all of your break points, or you might want exactly 3 additional attribute levels. Odd configurations have worse hit point per level tradeoffs, but they're still better if the extra level doesn't accomplish anything. Oh, and you cannot want even a single point in secondary or dump attributes, because otherwise use of a superior is going to give you several extra levels in those attributes which is well worth those -25 HP.

Now what build would want that? I don't know. I've never made one. Never seen one either. -25 HP for an attribute level is just a trivial tradeoff on any attribute that's worth a major - even if you just pull the 16-20 attribute points off of the base and redistribute them elsewhere from it.

Peace,
-CxE

I'm having a little trouble wrapping my brain around what you're saying here, can you make an example of such a situation?

Superior is just fine with -75 life. Any less would encourage the use of 2 or more superiors, and that would complicate the game's balance.

Not exactly. If you mess up and get dp, switching from a sup runed armor to a maj runed armor can keep you at your optimum hp. Also important is that its possible to drop yourself to 0/0 hp if you aren't careful, and thus on the dp shot beforehand you have to switch an armor piece to give yourself an extra bit of hp to survive if you die.

Mostly this is for farming areas that take a while to get to, or for long PvE sessions.

But yeah, until you practice a lot with protbond/spirit invincibility builds you'll never have a use for majors... cept the price reduction.

Agreed.

If you can live with a smaller bonus, use a minor.

If I want a challenge, I take part in a competition or a tournament! But in a game I only seek fun!

Yeah, it's a pretty niche situation.

Let's say you were, for whatever reason, playing the following Mesmer/Monk build:

Arcane Echo
Blackout
Energy Burn
Energy Surge
Signet of Weariness
Signet of Humility
Remove Hex
Resurrect

(don't ask me why you'd run that build).

Because of how these skills are linked, you want exactly two attributes: Fast Casting and Domination. Assume for the moment that you're absolutely addicted to Fast Casting and have decided to completely max that attribute, demanding both your hat and the superior rune to get to 16.

So what do you want to do with Domination? Well your ideal level is 14. All of your Domination skills have a breakpoint there (hence this entirely contrived example), making a 14 in Domination identical to a 15 in Domination. With your 12 base, a major rune and a superior rune will have the exact same effect on your skills, except that a superior rune simply costs you 25 more health.

Thus, you'd use a major over the superior in this example.


Now are there any practical builds that have this same constraint? None that I've seen. But, at least in theory, there are builds out there that really want to milk breakpoints, and because of that majors might end up being more useful.

Personally, the only reason I care about majors at all is that you need to have the already unlocked before you can spend your faction on a superior.

Peace,
-CxE

Ah, I get it now.

Anywho, I think essentially to balance major runes with supes, the HP hit of using two majors has to be <= the HP hit of one superior. That would make it so in all of these +3/+1 vs +2/+2 dealies, the major runes would be the cheaper deal HP-wise, whereas the +3/+1 would occasionally be cheaper attribute wise. In fact, even if you made majors more attractive than that, it would be fine, since people would still use supes for the purpose of maximizing stats.

Hmm.

Perhaps there could be a NEW version of runes that takes away STAT points rather then HP? I'm talking like a TON of stats points - for example 8,15,40.

This may sound silly - because it is the direct opposite of what the runes give - but it would greatly reward the TOP 10% of players that have 1 million+ exp as they would VERY gradually get sigificantly stronger.

This game is about competition and tournaments.

You dont need runes for doing the quests and missions.

They are fine as it is..

I have two superior runes on my monk, great healing.. and protection from him too

I just wish they hadn't nerfed superior vigor down to 50 rather than 75.

I think A superior vigor should be able to offset the health loss of a regular superor rune. That's the way it used to be and the way it still should be in my opinion.

As it stands, a superior vigor isn't worth much more than a major when you come down to it. It only gives 9 more health. I really didn't approve of that change.

Ah. I see now what went wrong in my reasoning. Thank you for pointing that out in a patient and clear way. A pity though, one would indeed almost think that the only use major runes have is when you want to spread out your maximums over 2 atributes rather than using a superior rune for focus on a single attribute. Really too bad that that isn't the case at all.

Note to self: Do try to stop letting wishfull thinking interfer with reasoning

For most of us, the ungodly cost of the superiors makes this discussion largely moot...

Actually it is only warriors, most sup runes are pretty cheap (in gold sense)

ya they dont cost too much (well i only go for minors) but i hate how they only give you 25 gold back for even a sup, which makes them completely pointless to me

The reason (In my expirience) why there is such a large penalty on runes is so that someone with a Major Hammer/Prot/Whatever run can be just as good as a person with a Superior one; the person with the Major rune having more health.

But on this basis, I think health runes should have a penalty aswell. Perhaps in armor. Really, it's only fair.

I just unlocked my superior health rune through PvP. Who - besides rich PvE'ers - need a +9 health over a major rune?

Where on the CE box does it say that?

I merely answered to IndiCC, who said, he doesn´t understand why people want to make GW easier!

Challenge!!! Oh My God NOOOOOOOOOOOO!...

*Faints dead away*

lol, acctually the penalties arn't really all that bad, you just need to weightout your needs and wants, and adding a super vigor will help with at least 1 other maj or super, adding a sup strength or other master might just be worth that -hp if it gets the job done better, faster etc.

anyone else read that thread on the solo mo/war...he's got a super on every peice of armor..tho im sure he carries a whole extra set that doesn't lower his hp to 105

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