From what I have been reading, it seems that ArenaNet's biggest concern is botters selling in game items for real money. I have a radical thought here, and I hope that (if I am correct) this would be an active solution to the economy problem.
Instead of targetting the game and it's players by "nerfing" areas, lets (as a community of concerned and involved players) target the botters DIRECTLY through their weakest point, their wallets.
How do we do this? Last time looked on ebay there were almost 2000 auctions for gold, items and whatnot. Doesn't this violate the EULA? Can't we report these auctions to ArenaNet (who would then, in turn, inform eBay, who would then shut down the auction)? If each one of us took the time to scan eBay and report 5 auctions to ArenaNet, wouldn't that make some sort of drastic imact? Wouldn't the people (and I use that term loosely) who try to sell crap, and thus create the problem, eventually either get banned from eBay (for having multiple illegal auctions) or just give up all together because we THE COMMUNITY will not stand for botter ruining our game?
Wouldn't that help fix the problem? And if it does, who could we start sending emails to?
Start the revolution!
Possible ACTIVE economy fix for GuildWars??
badgob
sino-soviet
There was no economic problem until they changed the damn trader.
badgob
Sino- While your opinion is valid, your response does not address the above issue. Do you have an opinion on that? If so, I would like to hear it.
-Thanks!
-Thanks!
sino-soviet
Sorry just had to get that out of my system. 
As for ebayers and such, I don't think there is anything ANET or anyone can do about that. Actually there is one way. Anet can make it so that the trade system does not allow items to be "given" away. For example, they can put a price on each item that drops, and make it so that the item cannot be given away for less than it was priced at. Something similar could be done for gold. That however, would make me quit the game and never return. 
As for ebayers and such, I don't think there is anything ANET or anyone can do about that. Actually there is one way. Anet can make it so that the trade system does not allow items to be "given" away. For example, they can put a price on each item that drops, and make it so that the item cannot be given away for less than it was priced at. Something similar could be done for gold. That however, would make me quit the game and never return.
Drakron
Actually yes, they can ask EBay to shut down the audictions.
Problem is effort of tracking then down, that requires a 24/7 staff ...
Problem is effort of tracking then down, that requires a 24/7 staff ...
badgob
I was under the impression that if notified, eBay could shut down such blatantly illegal auctions. And if the seller open enough illegal auctions, they get shut down. I am also under the impression that an approach like this has not been attempted by any company, ArenaNet included.
Interestingly enough, most of these auctions have lame disclaimers stating such things as "you are not paying for the <item, gold> you're paying me for my <time to play the game, the transaction fee, the goodwill of transfer>". but even with these disclaimer the intent to sell is still there, and thus, violates the EULA.
If we as a community started actively pursuing such entities, and had the support of NCSoft and ArenaNet (and eBay, Amazon etc...) I guarantee this sort of behavior would decrase massively, and then "nerfing" like this could be undone.
Interestingly enough, most of these auctions have lame disclaimers stating such things as "you are not paying for the <item, gold> you're paying me for my <time to play the game, the transaction fee, the goodwill of transfer>". but even with these disclaimer the intent to sell is still there, and thus, violates the EULA.
If we as a community started actively pursuing such entities, and had the support of NCSoft and ArenaNet (and eBay, Amazon etc...) I guarantee this sort of behavior would decrase massively, and then "nerfing" like this could be undone.
badgob
As for the 24/7 staff...that's where we come in. We do the initial reporting to ArenaNet, then they have one or two people ship off a batch email and get things rolling on eBay's end.
Drakron
Well Sony tried ... now they do it thenselves.
RMThompson
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Originally Posted by badgob
I was under the impression that if notified, eBay could shut down such blatantly illegal auctions. And if the seller open enough illegal auctions, they get shut down. I am also under the impression that an approach like this has not been attempted by any company, ArenaNet included.
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It's perfectly legal, even if it does break the rules of the game... that would be like saying farming is illegal. It aint!
Diomedes
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The problem here is that it's not ILLEGAL it's just against the EULA of ArenaNet... And Ebay doesn't really give a DAMN about the EULA of Arenanet. It's perfectly legal, even if it does break the rules of the game... that would be like saying farming is illegal. It aint! |
-Diomedes
badgob
I guess my point here is if you make it more difficult for the botters to find buyers for their items, there will be less botters. If there is nothing to deter these fiends, then they have no reason to change their behavior.
You know, this is vaguely reminiscant of "The War on Drugs" back in the 80's. Only switch drugs with "items" or "gold".
You know, this is vaguely reminiscant of "The War on Drugs" back in the 80's. Only switch drugs with "items" or "gold".
EmperorTippy
It is illegal. The botters are selling something that doesn't belong to them. That 'gold' is the virtuial property of ANet and thus can't be sold legaly with out their permission. It is a kin to the botter renting a house from you and selling it to another person. We are doing the same thing with guildwars except ours is a permenent lease. What ANet needs to do is cut off the buyers. Merely start up a bunch of EBay accounts generate a bunch of gold offer it for sale and when a person comes to buy ban him. To stop from being held liably for stealing from the person add code to the items/gold that makes it dissapear in x number of miniutes (try like 5). You were sold the gold its not the sellers fault what happens to it after you take dellivery.
Algren Cole
see...the problem here is that most of you think a EULA is a legally binding contract...and it's not.
noblepaladin
The main problem is that A.Net will have to get people to look for such auctions, and I don't think they want to hire someone who just looks for auctions. And E-Bay would need someone who just keeps going around deleting such auctions. There is definitely no reason for E-Bay to do that, they don't care about some game. So even if we flood E-Bay with requests to delete certain auctions, E-Bay must investigate to see if the claim is true before deleting and it causes alot of hassle for people who already bid and for E-Bay customer service (although those "customers" are not complying by the EULA and they deserve to be banned, they will still complain to E-Bay that they bid on an auction and it disappeared, etc). E-Bay is not going to create trouble for themselves with no incentive to do so.
EmperorTippy
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
see...the problem here is that most of you think a EULA is a legally binding contract...and it's not.
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Algren Cole
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Originally Posted by EmperorTippy
The EULA isn't legaly binding BUT you don't own any 1 thing in the game. Not your character. Not your gold. Not your items. Not your account. Not a thing. You have leased it from ANet and NCSoft. They are the owners of your character. They allow you to play it but it is still their property.
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nobody is selling THEIR property....they are selling the time with which it took to attain that property...the property itself is entirely free.
Legally there is nothing ArenaNet can do about it...and ebay isn't going to shut down perfectly legal auctions just because they don't abide by ArenaNets EULA. ArenaNet can ban you from the game....other than that there is nothing they can do.
Tactical-Dillusions
I wonder if ArenaNet will buy some of these items and catch them that way?
Seems more plausible to spend $10 on their own property in order to make examples of people rather than spend $$$$$ on nerfing and potentially damaging the entire game.
IMO
Seems more plausible to spend $10 on their own property in order to make examples of people rather than spend $$$$$ on nerfing and potentially damaging the entire game.
IMO
Damon Windwalker
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
nobody is selling THEIR property....they are selling the time with which it took to attain that property...the property itself is entirely free.
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I don't think that would hold up in court....
Algren Cole
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Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker
"I'm not selling illegal narcotics - I'm selling my time taken to process, package, and distribute them. the drugs themselves are completely free."
I don't think that would hold up in court.... |
if you're in possession of drugs you are breaking the law...therefore no that wouldn't hold up in court.
There is already precedence for this kind of activity. Someone sells a Red Sox T-Shirt on the internet for $5,000....and gives two tickets to game 6 of the World Series as a gift....they aren't scalping tickets...you didn't buy a ticket....you bought a very very expensive t-shirt.
Yamat
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
see...the problem here is that most of you think a EULA is a legally binding contract...and it's not.
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Diomedes
Quote:
| see...the problem here is that most of you think a EULA is a legally binding contract...and it's not. |
-Diomedes
Thanas
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
nobody is selling THEIR property....they are selling the time with which it took to attain that property...the property itself is entirely free.
Legally there is nothing ArenaNet can do about it...and ebay isn't going to shut down perfectly legal auctions just because they don't abide by ArenaNets EULA. ArenaNet can ban you from the game....other than that there is nothing they can do. |
Borak Bloodbane
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Originally Posted by EmperorTippy
It is illegal. The botters are selling something that doesn't belong to them. That 'gold' is the virtuial property of ANet and thus can't be sold legaly with out their permission. It is a kin to the botter renting a house from you and selling it to another person. We are doing the same thing with guildwars except ours is a permenent lease. What ANet needs to do is cut off the buyers. Merely start up a bunch of EBay accounts generate a bunch of gold offer it for sale and when a person comes to buy ban him. To stop from being held liably for stealing from the person add code to the items/gold that makes it dissapear in x number of miniutes (try like 5). You were sold the gold its not the sellers fault what happens to it after you take dellivery.
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Borak Bloodbane
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Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker
"I'm not selling illegal narcotics - I'm selling my time taken to process, package, and distribute them. the drugs themselves are completely free."
I don't think that would hold up in court.... |
Lorelei
Well, the law includes banning trafficking narcotics. Possess it and package it is illegal. The substance itself is not illegal
(example: vicodine, a pain killer, has a narcotic active ingredient. It is not illegal. However, to dispense vicodine without proper license (a doctor or a pharmacist) is illegal. To sell it is illegal. etc.)
(example: vicodine, a pain killer, has a narcotic active ingredient. It is not illegal. However, to dispense vicodine without proper license (a doctor or a pharmacist) is illegal. To sell it is illegal. etc.)
generik
Actually ANet could easily spawn new accounts specially for the purpose of hooking these guys..
You can just keep on buying that red dye for $2, wait for the seller to come on.. and at that very instant some dev will flick a switch and the culprit will see his loot vanish before his very eyes before seeing a error 7
Oh, and when he tried to log back on, account not valid
They can keep buying CD keys, the devs can keep doing it! Heck, I don't mind a community supported effort in doing this either, provided ANet reimburses me for each culprit nabbed!
$2 for one dumb virtual item purchase contrasted with $50 profit from the game sale... I'd say it is very worth it!
Afterall they need more paypal accounts to make it.. hard for them to blacklist and detect
You can just keep on buying that red dye for $2, wait for the seller to come on.. and at that very instant some dev will flick a switch and the culprit will see his loot vanish before his very eyes before seeing a error 7
Oh, and when he tried to log back on, account not valid
They can keep buying CD keys, the devs can keep doing it! Heck, I don't mind a community supported effort in doing this either, provided ANet reimburses me for each culprit nabbed!
$2 for one dumb virtual item purchase contrasted with $50 profit from the game sale... I'd say it is very worth it!
Afterall they need more paypal accounts to make it.. hard for them to blacklist and detect
Pelias
A.net should call their lawyers and demand banning of gold auctions from ebay. Just like FFXII dudes did.
That should be a really painful blow for them.
Big problem is IGE and their affilate ranch.
That should be a really painful blow for them.
Big problem is IGE and their affilate ranch.
Aniewiel
I doubt that, given the huge number of sellers, that ANet could afford to 'buy' their own intellectual property back just to ban accounts that would be back up again in 30 minutes. I'm sure that the hardcore 'sweat shops' have hundreds of accounts, hundreds of copies of the game and hundreds of ways around anything that ANet could do.
It's sad and disgusting but, unless ANet aggressively challenges the laws pertaining to EULAs and intellectual property and international copyright laws, there is very little that will shut these guys down. Probably the -industry- needs to band together and fight these kinds of violations.
It's sad and disgusting but, unless ANet aggressively challenges the laws pertaining to EULAs and intellectual property and international copyright laws, there is very little that will shut these guys down. Probably the -industry- needs to band together and fight these kinds of violations.
The Great Al
slightly irrelevant comment:
how stupid/obsessed/excessively rich do you have to be to spend real money on ingame items?
if someone is able to get money from an item in game, more power to them....id sell a superior absorption for five bucks, but its just a waste of time anyway
how stupid/obsessed/excessively rich do you have to be to spend real money on ingame items?
if someone is able to get money from an item in game, more power to them....id sell a superior absorption for five bucks, but its just a waste of time anyway
Algren Cole
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Originally Posted by Pelias
A.net should call their lawyers and demand banning of gold auctions from ebay. Just like FFXII dudes did.
That should be a really painful blow for them. Big problem is IGE and their affilate ranch. |
what would this accomplish???? Ebay would laugh in arenanets face. There is no way they will invest the time, money, staffing, and effort into stopping something that isn't even illegal.
generik
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Originally Posted by Aniewiel
It's sad and disgusting but, unless ANet aggressively challenges the laws pertaining to EULAs and intellectual property and international copyright laws, there is very little that will shut these guys down. Probably the -industry- needs to band together and fight these kinds of violations.
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As a software developer, and also a supporter of Free software, I can see how your suggestion opens a bigger can of worms. A can bigger than just some fake gold being sold on ebay for real gold
generik
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Originally Posted by Algren Cole
what would this accomplish???? Ebay would laugh in arenanets face. There is no way they will invest the time, money, staffing, and effort into stopping something that isn't even illegal.
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You will be very surprised how well they comply with these things. To the point where you can tell it "jump" and eBay will say "How high?"
They take legal aspects of their trade very very very seriously, trust me on this. To the point they will even send their own staff (obviously on their salary...) to help solve crime cases.
Algren Cole
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Originally Posted by generik
Do you trade on eBay?
You will be very surprised how well they comply with these things. To the point where you can tell it "jump" and eBay will say "How high?" They take legal aspects of their trade very very very seriously, trust me on this. To the point they will even send their own staff (obviously on their salary...) to help solve crime cases. |
yes I sell two or three cars a year on ebay...
they won't take legal action against something that isn't illegal. Selling gold/weapons/items/whatever is NOT ILLEGAL.
Aniewiel
A quick look at Ebay reveals exactly what Algren was saying: The traders are giving disclaimers that the buyer is NOT buying the intellectual copyrighted material from them. The buyer is, in essence, paying the seller for his/her time and effort. They acknowledge that the the gold/item is the intellectual and copyrighted property of AN.
It's a game of semantics but it really isn't illegal, sorry to say.
It's a game of semantics but it really isn't illegal, sorry to say.
badgob
What I dont understand is why every feels so helpless? A quick eBay search found that over 1800 entries for "guild wars". so I clicked on one of the 100K auctions and checked out "game_bob" (yes, that his eBay account name) and guess what I found....140 auctions by this same seller, selling the exact same thing..in game gold!
Here's where you come in, If Anet would be so kind as to accept OUR (yes! US! The players!) submissions with direct links to the big boys of botting, they could easily shut this guy down. See, here's the best part....it costs "game_bob" money, cuase he is still charged the listing fees! It would be very easy for ebay to shut down 140 auctions for the same thing...and at almost $1 a pop, that would send a message to this guy really quick....we do not tolerate this behavior, and we are prepared to kick you in the balls (read: checkbook) for being a complete douche bag and selling this "time" in exchange for "free" gold (the "donation" arguement).
If the "donation" arguement even held any water in court....I would go out and get me a prostitute right now and pay her $200 for the "conversation" and get the nasty sex as a "donation".
Cmon folks....what are we waiting for? Let's shut them all down! It's time to declare open season on the jerkholes....
Now who do we send emails to?
Here's where you come in, If Anet would be so kind as to accept OUR (yes! US! The players!) submissions with direct links to the big boys of botting, they could easily shut this guy down. See, here's the best part....it costs "game_bob" money, cuase he is still charged the listing fees! It would be very easy for ebay to shut down 140 auctions for the same thing...and at almost $1 a pop, that would send a message to this guy really quick....we do not tolerate this behavior, and we are prepared to kick you in the balls (read: checkbook) for being a complete douche bag and selling this "time" in exchange for "free" gold (the "donation" arguement).
If the "donation" arguement even held any water in court....I would go out and get me a prostitute right now and pay her $200 for the "conversation" and get the nasty sex as a "donation".
Cmon folks....what are we waiting for? Let's shut them all down! It's time to declare open season on the jerkholes....
Now who do we send emails to?
badgob
Here's a list of potential targets.....cmon ANET....and EBAY let's shut these guys down!
game_bob
offgamers
swagvault
wawqsd
igametrade
longlongpets
game20460
rmt4ig
youxizhuanmai8888
makebiggood
mmogcsales
shlfgh
Found this list of ebay accounts in 5 minutes. They account for over 650+ illegal GW auctions.....see it's easy....
game_bob
offgamers
swagvault
wawqsd
igametrade
longlongpets
game20460
rmt4ig
youxizhuanmai8888
makebiggood
mmogcsales
shlfgh
Found this list of ebay accounts in 5 minutes. They account for over 650+ illegal GW auctions.....see it's easy....
Cross Blade
I just checked ebay and found 1100 auctions for GW gold. but I was happy to see that there isnt a single bid(granted I only checked the first 4 or 5 pages)so hopefully ppl will keep NOT buying and these morons will get the hint.(of course, some morons arnt smart enough to get a hint, even if hit in the face with it)
Numa Pompilius
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Originally Posted by EmperorTippy
The EULA isn't legaly binding BUT you don't own any 1 thing in the game.
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Other than that I will restate my belief that the economy of guildwars is in much better shape than people seem to believe. It's only a very few very exclusive items that are very expensive, and they may well always have been intended to be very expensive.
Da Outlaw
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Originally Posted by Cross Blade
I just checked ebay and found 1100 auctions for GW gold. but I was happy to see that there isnt a single bid(granted I only checked the first 4 or 5 pages)so hopefully ppl will keep NOT buying and these morons will get the hint.(of course, some morons arnt smart enough to get a hint, even if hit in the face with it)
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Paladin_Adoni
if only I had a credit card. I'd buy some gold from one of these major sites that sells gold, have fraps runnin in the background, and capture the entire thing to video, in-game name and all. and send it to a-net. that'd screw em.
but unfortunately, all these sites are American (god dam americans, no offense) and I am in australia. and I dont have a credit card, and cant put money from my australian bank into paypal.
man us aussies are left out.
but unfortunately, all these sites are American (god dam americans, no offense) and I am in australia. and I dont have a credit card, and cant put money from my australian bank into paypal.
man us aussies are left out.