PvP needs a purpose.

Are there any plans to add PURPOSE to pvp? When it comes down to it, all you really gain out of it is exp and by level 20, that's completely irrelevant. I LOVE competition. However, I also love having some greater goal to work towards at the same time. I think that there should at least be some sort of gold reward for winning battles, if not a chance to win items.

You do gain items for victory in the HoH. In the GvG battles you gain rank on the ladders. The only place you do not gain any larger goal is the random arenas. And they're not really for competitive play so much as they are a way to get your feet wet with PvP and test out a build in a limited environment.

The purpose is to own other people. If that's not why you're playing PvP, then you should really considering going to PvE.

That's the most honest and straightforwarded definition of PVP ever.

MAPS
I would like to see some more possible scenarios on PvP. It becomes rather boring to face that brick wall and see there are 6 other teams to kill over and over again. See the HoH, and die sooner than later.

More maps specially, with more tactical possibilities? Anybody played Myth some years ago? Great fun in PvP and lots of fun maps and versatility. Something like that?

PVP/PVE
I'd like to see some more coop also, like holding off a steadily increasing stream of mobs, and get your results logged for others to see? Or getting through to a new level /map to feel the achievement?

PVP
Call me stupid, but all we found was HoH and Arenas in different flavours. I saw a list of 7-8 places to PvP at one board, are there more different types of play there?

When you're the best guild, that means you're the best in the world. That's something worth fighting for, that kind of bragging right.

I tend to agree somewhat with the Thread starter and with Nash.

OWNING
Yes, it is about owning people. But there are limited slots in the HoH and as I have said before, the regular player logging in for some action is gonna feel just like the Thread Starter says - where is the purpose ? Why do I keep playiing the smae maps over and over again in pick up groups and if I get to the Hall of Heros I am just gonna get owned by Die Hard players like Nash that has contemplated and made strategies for months. Is that purpose ?

THE OVERALL GOAL:
The goal is to reach the Hall of Heros and hold it for as long as you can, but then again that is going to be true for lets say 2% of the players ? How about the other 98% grinding the same maps over and over again to reach their purpose 0.001% of the time - to hold the Hall.

I played in pick up groups the whole Beta - and reached the Hall with a few of them. The only group that really kicked some butt was Nashes. I was lucky to have a go with him and it was fun, but that run was 1 out of 100 and I messed up and probably got us killed (sorry) by dying. runs like that makes it worthwhile to play PvP, but not many are going to be fortunate and be picked up by an all purpose group.

BALANCE
I also would like to question the balance as it is now:Regular Monks are now Tanks and Warrior Tanks now function as Monks.

How ?
Well all fire now is focused on the Monks - the life line of the group, I found myself bringing more and more defense throught the event. Groups also , especially pick up groups could not be successful without 3 monks.

As a Warrior, I had to kill targets as quick as possible to ease their burden, I also ran around with Restore Life constantly ressing players. I felt my purpose as the Warrior was not to be a tank , but an insane frenzy on the killing field and reviving party members from death - yes felt like a monk at times.

But that was not the point.

Finding the purpose in PvP is hard if you are in pick up groups - it is a repetetive grind for the masses and lots of fun for the few.

Try to realize that PvP gets boring after awhile if you're gaining nothing for it in the long run. All humility aside, I'll flat out say that my skills are far above that of a normal player. I'm a gamer, it's what I do. And sitting around killing people with NO reward gets tedious, especially with the poor map selection as mentioned. UO at least had the insurance system...you'd gain gold and be able to loot whatever the person had everytime you killed them. Guild Wars has nothing like that. Before someone responds to this with an all-too-predictable remark such as the "pvp for the sake of owning!" comment I anticipated, realize that I'm not saying this game is UO or should be like UO. I'm saying that because there was at least SOME reward, little as it may be, it kept you going. I see no reason why there can't be rewards for random groups that reach astounding numbers of wins, or at least small gold rewards per victory. As far as the Hall of Heroes goes, it's practically impossible to get anywhere there without a group of solid players that you know. Something needs to change.

On a side note, I enjoy 4 vs 4 battles, but the fort has got to be one of the ugliest maps ever conceived. Bring back the map that was used in the original world preview event. And yes, having more maps to do battle on would do wonders to alleviate some of the tedium.

some kind of ranking like guild ranking would be very cool

It would be, but I'm talking material gain. I couldn't care less what position my guild was in.

Bottom line is this game is weak. I got bored with the game by the end of this last BWE. Race and professions are too limited. Game does not have any purpose that I could see. Once you get your toon to 20 theres nothing left to do. The pvp was fun at first but got old really quick. There was simply no point in fighting; you don't gain or lose anything. And there isn't much to gain overall.
Personally I think the game needs a lot of work, which probably won't happen.
I can't imagine people sticking with this game that long. I left Shadowbane thinking this would be and improvement but I was mistaken. I've been playing shadowbane for a couple years and still can find more to do in there than here.
So good luck keeping entertained to all those who actually purchase GW.

I have to agree with the majority of the people here. Something NEEDS to be added to PvP to make it worth playing over and over again as this seems to be the main selling point of the game.

I haven't participated in any "proper" form of PvP in GW yet, but that is the case in most games that feature character classes. I personally despise healers (not the people playing them, but as a "gameplay element") as they completely change the way combat works.
All your mistakes and little victories can be overridden by a healer's actions. As such, they "cheapen" the act of fighting.

On the other hand, even if GW didn't have healers, people would be going after artillery (elementalists) or the next class with the lowest armor & high damage. That warrior with the highest armor in the game and a melee weapon in his hands? He is not your enemy's weak spot.

In most games I've played, people don't even attack melee classes. A crowd control spell (mez, root, snare etc) is usually what it takes to get rid of a close range fighter.

I have yet to see a game that fixes this problem, and I am not holding my breath.

Did any of you play StarCraft? What did you gain by winning other than winning?

This isn't Starcraft, this is an online RPG based around creating a character, developing him, and competing with other players. If this were purely about pitting yourself vs other players like Starcraft, everything would be available to everyone immediately, no work involved. They're two completely different games. Furthermore, regardless of what similarities these two games may have, the fact remains that a lot of people seem to be getting bored fast and feel that something is lacking here. I know this game has extreme potential; during the world preview events, I was completely glued to it. However, it needs more replay value.

Key word here is "Did". Although StarCraft was a great game, Time has moved on and new and better games have come along. People who "Did" play starcraft "Do" not anymore.... at least not to the extent they used to.

Winning for the sake of winning only gets you so far. I mean think about it. Do you go to school just to get a degree? just so you can feel good about getting that degree? NO, you go to get the job you want or just to make a lot of money. This is a materialistic world and the virtual world we choose to play in should work around the same wants we have in real life.

Actually, I went to school to gather knowledge and become a more flexible, well-rounded person who could handle life's challenges better--not to make more money (frankly, a basic college degree doesn't exactly hold out the promise of phat lewt right now).* In a similar way, I would like to think that the reward of PvP--if done correctly and entered in the right spirit--would be the satisfaction of knowing that I had learned how to respond to a team's tactics and develop my own skills to be a competent player.

Another problem with your college analogy is that getting a degree isn't meant to be enjoyable, per se. GW is a game. Did you never play Magic or other card games with your friends? Was it only fun if you were playing for material rewards? Maybe the answer is yes--I do know people who only enjoy games if they stand to win or lose money. But I played Magic with my friends simply for the pleasure of interacting with them and the enjoyment of seeing if I had the skills to make and deploy a winning deck.

All that said, I haven't played GW yet so I really don't know how I'll respond to it. It does seem that without some kind of extra rewards, many people won't be into long-term play. That seems a limiting idea of "fun" to me, though.

Starflower
*If I were going to be really honest, I would say I went to college because I loved learning things and wanted to learn more...but I fear this would mark me as UberNerd and ruin my credibility outright.

Would some independently made ladders and tournys help ease the boredom?

i make ladders leagues for games as a hobby of sorts (yeah bored programmer)

would stuff like that help? or just add to the boredom?

In DAOC, realm points are awarded for PVPing. With those RPs you can buy special skills and abilities that make your character better, but since this game isn't about time put in, I doubt this system would work well because you would have people that play 24/7 and own anyone else because they have special abilities.

As for needing motive, I don't not atm. I have fun just doing in an formulating a plan to take out the enemy. The game is action/rpg, not just rpg. It's not a roll of dice, you can dodge attacks and hide behind the environment, so in that regard, the game doesn't need pvp motive.

I play HL2 deathmatch and kill people just to kill people. Same thing for GW atm. I had a blast pvping in random groups versus random groups. The difference is it's 3rd person and you don't shoot guns

Alright, alright. I'll rephrase Dreamsmith's sentence.
"Did any of you play Wahammer 40,000: Dawn of War/Act of War/Rome: Total War/Counter Strike/Half Life Deathmatch/Half Life 2 Deathmatch/Enemy Territory/Wolfenstein/Far Cry/Rainbow Six multiplayer/Tribes Vengeance? What did you gain by winning other than winning?"
Better?

Seriously, I play for fun. If you play for any kind of reward, then I am sorry for you.

I agree with several of the posts about this topic to an extent. It did seem like there wasn't much to do after hitting lvl 20, aside from acquiring the strongest armor for your class and being beaten repeatedly in the Fissure or Underworld this weekend. PvP seemed to get tedious quickly mainly because the maps are boring/repetitive and having a group that lasts more than a few rounds is hard to do. To keep playing in PvP when you're being flattened quickly does get pretty boring. I won't say much about whether motivators should be added or not. The devs have said that there will be more missions in the final, but still, 28 seems a rather small number, even if they do take awhile to complete. So my suggestion would be either add more interesting maps and maybe a better incentive to PvP or, (and this is much less likely given how close release is) raise the level cap and make more missions.

I play counter-strike, a lot. I team up with friends, and kill other friends. We laugh and have a jolly good time. The same idea needs to be carried over to GW, just have fun. The game is not just about developing a character. In case you didn't notice at the character creation process, you can just start at lvl 20 and PvP. This feature allows patient and impatient gamers to both have fun. So come on everybody, just have fun and kill each other .

Last I saw, a character could gain FAME. It even has specific in game effect(s).

Putting MTG and GW in the same category is an abomination. Magic was a classic game (at least until the release of Fallen Empires expansion and all following). Building a great deck and winning was an accomplishment, but it wouldn't have been as fun without the challenge of obtaining the rare cards. Once you play GW you will see that there is no "Black Lotus" to obtain. GW is more like playing Magic without the excitement of finding those rare cards......its fun for awhile but soon gets boring.

MTG was a classic game untill WotC decided to introduce uber cards in the new editions that made the older expantions unplayable.
There are no Black Lotus to obtain in Guild Wars, however you do have to look out for skill trainers.
Magic The Gathering had the excitement of finding rare cards, however it meant you should keep buying booster after booster just to get that bloody Serra Angel. Sure you could buy a card on eBay/card store but wasting 40$ for a piece of paper is stupidity at it's peak.

i've watched most of the gw movies available on the website, and one of them was talkin about some story line. (my daddy fought in gw and now i am...)
gw mite be a tad bit more interesting if the pvp was tied in closer to that storyline
(jus a thought)

Guild Wars has borrowed much from the different generas of gamming. It has elements of MTG (a choosen deck vs eight skill slots, buying new decks vs finding skill trainers/capturing skills off bosses), any FPS (fragging with guns vs fragging with swords/wands) , and any RPG (stat points vs attribute points, etc).

The trend I've noticed throughout the beta events is a slow ramping up of skills, armors, maps, and game concepts. Arena Net has been pretty careful not to release any over powered skills or spells, but rather to underpower new stuff until they see the effect on the game. I believe this is the same that their doing for the PvP.

You also have to take into consideration that this is all still beta. If you were the one making a game would you show everything you had before you even released the game?

Hehe I get to join in the topic... ahem

Anyhow I'm going to add my 20403 cents in . This is a CO"RP"G, the missions do a good job as to pit you in a role, but PvP does not have any immersion with the actual lore and storyline with it (from my understanding). As I've stated a lot earlier and and earlier post was about the ability to have new playable races that have no "inherit abilities" (so balancing isn't an issue) and have them start as seperate starting areas and so forth. For instance the abilities to play a charr and create a charr guild with a charr storyline involved. Then GvG would mean just much more than gaining ranks in ladder.

The thought of actually going up against a Human Guild vs a Charr guild. Would make the lore and roleplaying aspects all that much more interesting and involving. Thus the reward would be that much more interesting to accomplish killing as to know that you've helped in the war or somewhat . I hope you all get what I mean. World of warcraft had a very interesting lore and faction based on races and what not, but however I did not want to get to level 60 just to be able to join in with the real PvP battles and lore. With guildwars I can be competitive right off the bat, but as fun as PvP battles were it would become something like (sorry to use such an example) Counter strike. Although as addictive as counter-strike can be. You start to realize there really is no purpose, because there is no effect with the lore or story or plot.

Anyways... before I start saying weird things and make a 8-10234 paragraph long post I'll end it here because no one mentioned about making PvP part of the lore and what not to make it more interesting to actually want to PvP.

I do hope they eventually pull all elements of the game into the story. I think they have a bit with the Lore, but they have plenty of time to do this in future expansions. I don't want so much a prize for playing PVP, but I want it all to make sense within the World of Tyria. We have the basic info available about what we are doing and why, hopefully more of the story is told in future expansion. The more integrated the game is, the more immersive the story. And everyone knows a very immersive story allows you to own people more effectively, so it is for the PVP players most of all!

oooh come to think of it... They could do some sort of cutscene for certain future pvp battles where you see your toon and the team you are with in an arena type place where there are audiences chanting and what not and cheering like a football type scene where you see the players come out... geez wouldn't that make you want to battle that much more?

This is a lie. Some people's purpose in PVP is to get owned.

Heindrich wrote:

I completely disagree. In PvP I consider the entire team to be the "deck" all of 8 of you are playing from. Building a great deck and winning is an accomplishment in Guildwars.

I could care less about the rares. Rares were what lead to the downfall of Magic The Gathering. Either you spend thousands to get the rares you needed or you lost in competitive play. Thank god Guildwars gives EVERYONE a lvl playing field rather than those who have the cash.

As for the "there's nothing left to do at lvl 20" people. Stop crying. Another PvE chapter will be available down the road. Personally I LOVE the way PvE is implemented in Guildwars. The story is ten thousand times better than any other MMORPG out there. The actual length of the game content is THE SAME AS ALL THE OTHER MMORPG's ... you just don't have to spend 10 thousand hours lvling your avatar to be able to access all of it.

As for the "point" of PvP ... the "point" is to win. The "point" is to get your guild to the top of the heap. The "point" is to put together the best team. The "point" is to discover new combo's you may not have thought of before.

If your looking for another deeper "point" to PvP ... go play DAOC or Shadowbane. PvP in Guildwars is more akin to CounterStrike in it's match and ladder mentality. Why do you think all the PvP'ers want all skills unlocked? Because it's not about having that l33t spell that nobody else has. For us it's about our SKILL in each match providing us a victory ... and to prove SKILL this inherently means both teams start off with access to the same skills and spells (depending on profession of course).

One other note ... PvP in DAOC was a joke. Oh yay I got owned by somebody 15 levels higher than me. Oh yay my faction took the tower AGAIN. The global map in DAOC changed daily .... I mean who really CARES if Mildguard owns this or that? Please ... that type of gameplay is meaningless. Guildwars has been marketed as a game for GUILDS. Getting my guild to the top of the gamerankings is all the goal I need.

Bamelin The Wanderer
The Vindicators
www.thevindicators.com

ya aggreeing with u i think there should be more reson for pvp
i mean seriously only people who play Alot and pour alot of there time into this game will ever get a high rank in the guild ranks... i mean i did with ema nd my friend around 10 guild battles... and well we got our grades higher...andit didnt do sqawt...only went up a few possitions its crazy how some of u guys win like 40 games in a row...

have any of you actual played guild wars? or know the purpose of creating a game with a max level of 20?

hmmmmm i don't know... maybe its so you don't have to spend hours grinding over and over again to get things.

Adding a reward that is actually a reward, and not just a few coins, would cause grinding in pvp. And then the people who get the reward would be better. Maybe not by much, but if a entire team has the reward, vs a team without, can you honestly tell me that it wouldn't be unfair?

The reason why its getting boring, is because your LOOKING for a reward. When i pvp, i get my guild together and are like, K lets go kick some butt, we come up with strategies and work together. And have a blast, I'm not looking for a reward or even rankings etc, and thats why i enjoy it. The fact is if your looking for a reward you won't find it in guild wars. Now go buy WoW, go grind and go to battlegrounds, you have to constantly fight there to get ranks and rewards. THERE YOU GO, now leave, and stop trying to corrupt pvp.

If its a choice between grinding pve for those rewards or grinding pvp for those same rewards, i'll take pvp any day.

I want to see pvp rewards (for fame) that unlock account stuff.
For example, every 10 fame randomly unlocks a skill item or rune you dont already have.

Yup. I love my Day of Defeat, it's only about teamwork and winning (or doing as good a job as you can) and there is no reward except a nice k:d or in league play making playoffs and taking home the championship. GW is a way of taking that and making it a bit more complex - instead of 7 infantry classes we have loads of possibilities, but it is the same idea. This ISN'T a MMORPG. It's a CORPG. I happen to love the PvE element, and will be doing a lot of that, but the fact that the PvP is à la FPS is fine by me. I don't think any game that rewards winning by making the next fight easier for the winner is a good game for testing skills, and I am glad that arenanet knows this. Imagine trying to play chess and your opponent explains that since he's won the past 50 games he gets two takebacks, one teleporting pawn and an extra queen. I wouldn't be playing chess anymore...

I don't see how wasting hundreds of hours of one's life to get virtual items can be seen as an 'achievement,' a 'challenge,' or even sane. If one needs to feel 'fulfiled' from playing video games in this manner, then that really does say a lot about a person.

By providing a level playing field the game encourages competition; it's rediculous to suggest that giving the advantage to players who have invested the most time will somehow encourage people (especially those hoping to pick up PvPing) to compete, apart from those who feel they are 'wasting' their time (who ironically have the most time to spare on video games).

I'm sorry, but that's the biggest pile of bullcrap I've heard from anyone here, as is the way you compare winning in a video game to getting a university degree. I'm not even going to talk about the schizophrenic manner you combine your real 'life' with your virtual 'life.'

Regardless, good luck with whatever you choose to do.

I agree, thats the only reason I think necro is a playable primary in pvp

Now we can only hope they implement the UAS button they had in beta.

Then every PvP'ers dreams for this game really would come true.

Bamelin

lol, wow, some of you kids (I'm assuming you're kids due to your lack of basic grammar skills) have blown this quite a bit out of proportion. I don't recall ever stating that the people who put the most time into the game should have an advantage over everyone else. What I suggested was some kind of reward system for pvp. Nobody said it had to be some godly reward. If you can spend a bunch of time doing missions with the chance of getting items and gold, why shouldn't you be able to earn at least a LITTLE gold or a random magic item through pvp?