Ranger/Echo experiment: phailed!

So I recently capped Echo with my Ranger and decided to mess around with it. Now, everyone seems to use Echo + Debilitating Shot with Rangers, and I wanted to see if there were other uses for it. The results: failure. But here's some food for thought anyway.

Experiment 1:

Echo => Penetrating Attack => Tiger's Fury => Pen. Attack a lot.

Seemed like a good idea. I like Penetrating attack. I use it every 3 seconds. Why not make every shot a Pen. Attack?

Pro:
+......failure!

Con:

- I have 13 expertise, I could deplete my energy on this in ONE Tiger's Fury.
- With Echo in my Elite spot, I don't get Melandru's Arrows, the only prep that really combines with it.
- With Tiger's Fury on a shortbow, you actually only get 2/3 of your shots to be Pentrating Attacks.

Overall, weak. Really weak. It's more managable to use Echo + Hunter's Shot, but the damage from that is so poor that a simple Poison Arrow is better.


================================


Experiment 2:

Echo => Savage Shot

Well that was a dumb idea. Sure, it's a spammable interrupt, and it's slower recharge makes it a little more managable than Pen Attack spam, but it's just no good.

Pro:
+...............

Con:
-Dumb?

====================================

Experiment 3:

Echo => Choking Gas => Tiger's Fury

I get to list a pro for this one, but only one.

Pro-
+ 30 seconds of Choking Gas with Tiger's Fury! Yippie!

Con-
-Not sustainable. You get to apply the prep 3 times, then you have to wait until Echo recharges.
- 15 (6?) mana prep and a 10 (5) mana stance every 10 seconds.
- Tiger's Fury doesn't make that big of a difference.
- Practiced Stance + Choking Gas is better, and doesn't require a Mesmer secondary.

So my final conclusion is: I'm terrible at using Echo, and too lazy to spec Domination for Echo + Debilitating Shot + Mind Wrack.

Has anyone else found (or tried to find) uses for Echo besides Debilitating Shot?

Can you try a double troll unguent or double Healing Spring and see if it stacks?

I think the troll unguent would be a good plan. Healing Spring sucks for pvp. One hit and its interrupted.

I know from Ranger teams that Healing Spring does stack. Troll Ungent does not, to the best of my knowledge. Even if it did though, I don't see why I'd want to do that.

In case you're not sure what Echo does: If I use Echo, then use any other skill, then the spot that would normally be Echo on my skill bar becomes replaced by that skill for 20 seconds.

So when I used Echo then Penetrating Attack I had 2 Penetrating Attacks on my bar for 20 seconds, that's how I could use it every shot.

A serious Interrupting Archer

Expertise 9+1
Beast Mastery 9+1
Domination 12
Marksmanship 3+1
Unused 1

Choose your target(s) wisely. Cast Echo {E}, then Disrupting Lunge. Fire Distracting Shot and Repeat Disrupting Lunge. Use Signet of Humility then Arcane Thievery. Fire Savage Shot, another interrupt, and Distracting Shot again.

Another promising combo in this build is Echo {E} and then Arcane Thievery. You will steal 2 additional spells, and still have the benefit of Disrupting Lunge and Distracting Shot. Signet of Humility will disable their elite.

Your pet will die, but that can only help if you get a few disrupting lunges off first. Revive it immediately and get it disrupting again asap.

Expertise 9+1
Beast Mastery 9+1
Domination 12
Marksmanship 3+1
Unused 1

Echo {E} (Mesmer General)

Disrupting Lunge (Beast Mastery)
... skill is interrupted and is disabled for an additional 20 seconds.

Distracting Shot (Expertise)
... skill is disabled for an additional 20 seconds.

Savage Shot (Marksmanship)
If Savage Shot hits, your target's action is interrupted....

Revive Animal (Beast Mastery)

Signet of Humility (Mesmer General)
Target Foes Elite Skill is disable for 15 seconds.

Hex Breaker (Domination)

Arcane Thievery (Domination)
For 29 seconds, one random spell is disabled for target foe, and Arcane Thievery is replaced by that spell.

It seems to me like the entire purpose of Echo is to let you reuse skills that would normally have long recharges. Now, since Rangers tend to use Expertise to spam attacks, it seemed to me that apply Echo to bow skills was a logical way to get more out of my bow skills. It just didn't work that way.

Couldn't you run that interrupt build with low Beast Master and high Marks and get the same effect? Your pet would die in all of an instant though.

Echo => Debilitant Shot with Mind Wrack is a good combo. I just don't believe that it's the ONLY combo that an R/Mes can use with Echo. There has to be another use for it!

If I have long recharge skills, I'd rather use Oath Shot (no failure at 14 expertise) than Echo, since it can be used on more than one skill.

Practiced Stance + Choking Gas > Echo + Arcane Echo + Choking Gas. Maybe you'll have a few seconds without CG if you use PS, but with Echo/AE, you're without CG for a good 20+ seconds after the initial use. Echo is best used on skills with a moderate recharge (say ~10 seconds) so you get more mileage out of Echo. If you only ever use the Echoed skill once before the 20 seconds is up, then it's kind of a waste if you ask me. If you just want a skill to recharge quicker, bring Energizing Wind, if your group doesn't mind too much.

I've considered using Echo on Dual Shot for crowd control in PvE when combined with Ignite Arrows, but I'm thinking just using Ignite Arrows with Tiger's Fury/Frenzy/Flurry would give the same effect (without using an elite, too!).

This build is too mathematically involved for me to mess with anymore. It's really about maximizing your damage per second output assuming Echo {E} is able to cut in half the recharge time of a bow attack skill. Seeing as how Point Blank shot and Penetrating Attack is a 3 sec recharge, and Power Shot is a 6 second recharge, it's logical to assume that Power Shot would be beneficial to cut it's time in half and use each of the skills once per .75 seconds:

R/Me

Marksmanship 12
Expertise 12
Wilderness Survival 3
(0 left over)

Echo {E}
Tiger's Fury (10,10))
Whirling Defense
Lightning Reflexes
Point Blank Shot 22+18 dmg(vs 60 AR) (10,3)
Power Shot 22+18 dmg(vs 60 AR) (10,6)
Penetrating Atk 22+15+8 dmg vs 60 AR) (10,3)
(Res Signet)

Above build can get under optimal conditions 58 dmg per second over 3 seconds (79 dmg per second if you calc in Tigers Fury).

(This needs explaining:
Since you have 4 attacks each with a 3 second recharge time and a 0 cast time, you can cast one every .75 seconds optimally. Thus over 3 seconds you do 40+40+56+40=59 dps. Now add in tigers fury and you attack another 33% faster, effectively increasing you to 78.5 dps. over 3 seconds)

Add kindle Arrows for additional 3-20 dmg (Unfortunately, Wilderness Survival will be low for this build). With maximal Expertise, I guess you could sustain this dmg output for less than 9-10 seconds.

Slightly more energy efficient is Quickening Zephyr with point blank shot removed (same strategy, Echo {E} Power Shot);

Echo{E}
Tiger's Fury
Whirling Defense
Lightning Reflexes
Quickening Zephyr
Power Shot 22+18 dmg(vs 60 AR) (10,6)
Penetrating Atk 22+15+8 dmg vs 60 AR) (10,3)
(Res Signet)

You may just as well use Marksman's Wager {E} and add two more bow attacks for a longer sustainable dps if you target well, better is to use skills that can't be evaded in such a build;

Overall, Echo {E} can serve to increase your dps over 3 seconds.

If you have 4 bow attacks each with a 3 second recharge, you can constantly be using a bow attack. Echo can be used on your most powerful one.

Good Luck.

Err...no cast time on arrow shots?? How about 2 seconds pulling the string back?

Whatever bow you're using, you're not going to be doing 4 attacks in 3 seconds before Tiger's Fury (or after) with that first build.

And without any buffs, your base damage will be excruciatingly bad against warriors.

I'll agree that echo debil is definitely the premier use.
There is one thing that echo buys you that's hard to quanitfy though.
It makes you a lot more flexible.
It can be argued whether flexibility is good enough to carry the day, probably not, but I'll list a few of the things I've used echo for with my ranger echo/debil build (meaning I brought the echo for debil, and probably used it, but also found myself later in the match using it for...):
- I've echo'd pin down when facing multiple warriors
- I've echo'd distracting and stopped two rez signets, keeping the monk down long enough for our team to win.
- I've echo'd tiger's fury to put that little bit of steady extra dmg output on the enemy priest in the rez shrine map.

Are any of these uses ultra efficient? nope.
In a few occasions though they've given my team enough of an edge to win.
Any build that includes echo is just a hair better at responding to changing situations in combat, due to circumstance or the makeup of the opposing team's build.

My two cents.
Cheers.

Can you Arcane Mimicry a friend's Echo, then use that copy of Echo to Echo one of your own elite skills? It would take some teamwork but it sounds like fun. Also, I think there is a bug with Arcane Mimicry that allows you to mimic any elite skill and not necessarily a spell. Can you have a pair of rangers, one with melandru's arrow, one with poison arrow. Have them arcane mimicry each other and now both rangers can inflict 7 bars of degen with 1 shot.

Quote: Originally Posted by [email protected]

Quote: Originally Posted by [email protected]

Exactly.
Your team-mate dies, he's dead. That's bad!
Add to that, your pet's at home

Also, Com-Man- not sure, but does Melandru's get slapped on after armour? I would definitely think so.

It would still add up to 59-74 damage if Armor Penetration doesn't affect it, so 70 damage in 3 seconds still not worth losing your elite slot.