Runners = Cheaters?

As someone who got a run to Draknor's Forge, I do not consider it cheating or anything of that sort. Now while the rest of you complain and what not of how "unfair" it is or that its cheating or what ever... So what. I did not buy this game and read the terms and conditions and agree with yours before I played. I agreed to the terms and conditions laid out by Anet(GW) and thats it. I bought the game, let me play it how I want to. Having said that, I'm pretty much an PvE kinda player. I can count on one finger the times I did PvP and that was the little battle going from Pre-Searing to afterwards. I could care less about PvP or GvG and who's getting owned by some noob in draknor or elite armor.

Yes in my opinion someone simply getting a run all around the map is losing a great deal of the experience. However I myself had gotten as far as The Wilds in location missions and much farther then that in exploring before getting a run to Draknors. I really appreciated the run and now with lv60 armor I can better battle it out with the minions around the world.

So remember... anyone playing has the right to play the game as they want to within the terms and conditions laid out by Anet. Don't like us playing how we want to? Go make your own game and have people agree to terms and conditions you want them to. Let us have our fun and stop being such a baby about it.

talk about closed minded :P

Those two quests, in fact no quest is nessesary.

I dont consider runners = cheaters .... they are just having fun doing something interesting. Godness ... the infusion run was one of my favourite parts of the game ...

I wouldn't hate on the runners ... if you are upset about lvl 15 with elites whooping your ass ... then I would hate on the level 15 thats whoopin your ass. Anet could easily avoid this by saying "okay now we are really gonna screw ya and make droknars only accessible to level 20s again and ascention will equal 20 again" ... the runners will just have there level 1's run to the desert and pay there way through the 3 missions. Either way it wont affect the fact that this will happen. Morally is it correct ... the answer to that is in the eye of the beholder.

I believe the word you're looking for is "twink." They aren't cheating, they're just twinked.

No they didn't.

btw, just to make myself clear:

i have a 14 mes with drok armor. ascended at level 8. did the ascension missions with 1 hench, 1 lvl 20, the rest lowlevels. So, in the eyes of the runner haters we maybe "deserve" a drok armor.

now dont come with "you got helped by a 20 blablabla" because most of you wouldnt even ascend before they are 20 and in team full of 20s. (no offense)

so: do i go to yaks arena and seriously kick some butt? nope. did i get straight to gvg to get me my cute mesgirlies ass handed over on a silver platter? most definetly.

did i ever get me rushed to drok? nope.

do i hate whining about rushers and heartless twinks? well.... YES.
if you KNOW you lost because of drok armor (well... and skills) then do something about it.
since the drok way is a part of the game, ganking you with drok armor is also a legitimate part of the game (even if i would be ashamded of myself if i did that).

but also i think, worrying about drok rushers is so damn sad....
why cant you just accept that there are people that can do a (in my opinion) very hard run, and admire such skill?
just because you got beaten at a lowlevel arena, by someone, who knows HOW to admire such skills (means: paying for them )?

damnit. maybe youre right! BLOCK LORNAR! but even more important: BLOCK the KOREANS! those cheaters always gank me

aww come on

If you save weapons, runes, etc... for your alternates as your hunting with your main is that cheating too? If your level 8 alt is using a max damage weapon with all kinds of bonus's that's ok as long as no one ran you to Droknar's?

To me it's very similar. *shrug*

For what its worth, drug users never think of themselves as "addicts," Griefers never think of themselves as "socially retarded," and cheaters never think of themselves as "challenge inhibited"

But this perception doesn't change reality.
The reality is, if you play against the spirit of the game, you're a scumbag, a cheater, and not fit to lick the goo from my boots.

Hopefully I haven't been too vague on this matter.

against the spirit of the game?

look at the storyline... we are always killing the GOOD guys.
i wouldnt be astonished, if the charr were the natives from ascalon.

btw, i guess a cheater wouldnt want to lick the goo from your boots anyways. they would gladly let you do this all by yourself.

I don't think it's really cheating to run people from town to town, but Droknar runners piss me off like no other simply because running people to Droknar's Forge is the most profitable way of making money in the game, and in my opinion, that's MUCH closer to exploiting than farming anything. It's strictly for Warriors, plain and simple. Sometimes rangers as well, but not on the way to droknars unless they've a warrior class as well. It's a sad thing when running someone somewhere in all of 15k minutes can make you 20k in one run, it's pathetic and THAT sort of thing is what's ruining the economy, not only that but I've been pretty pissed about how then someone can breeze through every mission in the game up to ascension with the Droknar armor, and now almost everyone does it...it's like the all the armor from ascalon to droknars is worth NOTHING because everyone has better armor anyway.

I don't think it's cheating really, just lame.

When people don't have the skill to play the game and win with limited resources, they try everything they can to cheat.

well, there are skilled players who cheat too, but for different reasons I guess.

You get 19 skill points from levelling, 1 point from Devona in noob land, 24 from missions and one or was it two (as a cap sig) from Magi Malaquire. That's 46 points to level a char and beat the PvE game.

There are 450 skills. 220 can be gained from quests. 230 either have to be bought or cap sigs bought. 230 / 46 = 5 Levlling a char 5 times and beating the game gets very boring indeed.

Having to team with real people each time and trying a mission over and over because a noob spoils it wastes a lot of time. Droknar's armor = easier to solo your way through missions and those 5 chars you need to get the skills.

A problem is the people who go to low level arena and pwn noobs. But they are free to go to Droknar's themselves. I think it's a bit retarded but it's their choice.

I get ran do droknars to get armor, which i see no issue with. Does that make me lazy, impatient, or greedy? Absolutely not, I farm for the money I pay to have me run... Not to mention that after I get that armor I go back to beacons and 'work' my way through all the missions. Only difference is that I have a bit more protection and one last thing to pick up come endgame. But your right, it doesnt hurt anyone.

And people who 'think they are always right' will think themselfs as "the standard by wich everyone should go by" or "judges of everyone" But we are beating a dead horse here..

Reality? Your reality? Wow... so... the way you play is the way everyone should? Nope, it isnt. Just becuase I don't play the way you do doesn't make me a scumbag. Everytime I see a post like the one above makes me wonder why they have a low level area connected to a high level area. People could argue off and on about how they mean it to be played through. But hey, like it or not... if game mechanics (sprint,charge,etc) allow someone to run it and no level restriction is placed on droknars (which they could easily do seeing ascension is required in ToA) then hey... i see no problem with it. Minus the exploitation, in my opinion of course, of the arenas. But thats another thread entirely.

Only really need the option for all the skills for pvp. PvE characters are locked into their respective class combinations rendering a large portion of the game repetition unneccary.

Well, aside from being extreemly rude and childish, it's also a strawman arguement. Noone here who is for Droknar's runs has said that going to pwn the noobs in the Ascelon arena is fair. In fact, almost every one made sure to go to the effort to make sure this was understood!

So if one disagrees with the reasons, please stop using this same old strawman. Surely it has been beaten to death.

And as for me, I will never take a taxi in town again. Why? Well I learned this here today: it's lazy to not want to walk 15 blocks, and it ruins the shoe economy!

It is not efficient to farm faction in the Ascalon Arena. You'd be there all damn day, the reward for winning is pathetic.

I personally think the Ascalon and Shiverpeak Arena should be closed and the maps rolled into the main Competition Arena (Like what was done with Amnoon Arena and Fort Koga). PvP in either of those arenas just teaches so many bad habits, and is so half-arsed that the participants really stand nothing to gain from. People running around beating each other up with their Pre-Searing/Just out of Pre-Searing builds gives the complete wrong impression of Guild Wars PvP. The way Skills are distributed throughout the game is a major factor in this, as a number of professions/profession combinations gain skills which leave them significantly better off than their counterparts, early on.

Shutting down those two arenas solves the Droknar griefer problem and forces players to be a bit more experienced before attempting PvP, thereby lessening their chances of being scared away from the experience by constant defeats and false impressions.

I agree 100%

Very well put. I agree.

The same could be said for the pre-made pvp templates. I know you are arguing for walking people through the tutorial, then wade into the pvp, but many wont like walking that path. Learning is also subjective to what is available to be learned.

Heres how I look at this:

First, this is all a matter of Freedom of Choice, people have bad manners and want to look like jackasses, so be it, thats their choice. If people want to go to Droknar, get the best armor, and compete in the arena, so be it, its their choice. If you hate it so much, don't play in the arena.

I also look at it like this:

I myself, am very poor in this game, and I mean it. I have three characters im constantly trying to fix up with the right skills and such, and having farming nerfed just made money really hard to come by. My first Warrior got Yaks armor, and then I had to save up the whoooooooole game till I got to Droknars so I could buy my armro without difficulty. This made the game very hard, I hated it jsut because at Lions Arch if you got the armor there, all the missions till Denravi were easier, ect. While I was taking 150 damage a hit, the rich guy next to me who buys armor whenever he gets to a new armorer, is taking 2. So with my Ranger I decided something different. I saved my money, and tried my best to farm, finally I had enough money, got my friend to run me to Droknars for free, and bought the best armor. Now I dont have to worry about it.

I don't want to have to be forced to sit through that terrible storyline again and again, do you?

Or atleast not without the spells and armor to get it over with without high levels of frustration.

Agreed, especially since there are pleanty of people that pull agro when told not to, dont heal when they are a monk(which is their right, just frustrating), people leaving the game prematurely or if they even die once, people that dont play, just go afk for the whole mission to get a free ride. With all that in the mixture of the decent and good players, sometimes it takes a long time to get a mission done. It can become tedious and frustrating, especially if youve already done it with a previous character. Getting armor/skills early just helps you live a bit longer, and in some rare cases lets you run to the next area if your team dies off or quits on you.

talk about trivilizing (spelling?) the game

The game is something holy and to be revered then? How can you trivialize a game? IT IS BY NATURE TRIVIAL.

I like to play a game where I actually need to do something to win.

playing doom with /god mode isn't really fun really. well, not to me.

Just my opinion HK - I'm as entitled to it as you are yours. Even if you are wrong.

I didn't offer any examples of how I play whatsoever. I stated an opinion, and according to my opinion, you confess to being a scumbag.
No further examples needed.

If you didn't already figure it out, I don't support or identify with moral relativism. You are either an honorable person or you are not. There is no wiggle room. I realize that to moral relativists this makes me "close minded" and "uptight."
Oh well, get over it.
I already have.

Totally agree. that is the key point to this whole discussion. It doesn't matter if you run people, if you hire people to run you, or if you've never done either and never will... Facts are:
-ANet made running a possibility in their game.
-ANet allows use of this possibility (ie: it's not a violation of the rules, as opposed to exploiting a bug)
-GW's rules are made by ANet. You can't change them. If you don't like them, what you can do is take your money elsewhere and email ANet to let them know why you're doing so.

Therefore, it's entirely up to and within the rights of each player to choose wheter to do running or not.

All the people who like whining about runners might as well whine about how some people equip collectors items: the possibility is there, some people go and make use of it. Others don't and are liable to stay less rich / less armored / etc than those who do. If you don't do running for "moral reasons" or if you don't equip collectors items because you think it's boring to walk around looking for collectors, it's all the same: you're not making use of a possibility the game offered you, and nobody can force you to.

Nobody forces you to play the game the way they do, so you can't force others to play the game the way you do.

If running really bothers you so much that you consider it cheating and believe you have the right to bother/insult/flame people who do it: go find a game in which it is cheating, then you'll have the right to bother/insult/flame people who do it.

Eder;
interestingly enough, running just became significantly harder with the addition of many more hazardous creatures along the most popular exploit, er RUN routes.
Not impossible mind you, but considerably more difficult.

And look who is wailing to high heaven: the scammers offering the wanna-be cheaters their aid.
No more phat lewts for JOO.

Well done, ANet.

Or let me illustrate this issue from another angle, by telling a short story of my experience from few nights ago:

I am trying to collect 5 Hydra Claws around the desert area to exchange for a focus item. I am feeling anti-social so I am going with henchmen. After 30 mins of clearing the whole area outside of angry rock including a boss hydra, I only get 2 claws and I am getting bored without somebody to chat with.

When I go back to town to sell, I see a group looking for more to kill Hydras. Prefect, I join that group. Group leader is trying to get one more to fill the group so I chat a little with the people.

I say to group that I am looking for claws and only has 2 so far with henchmen group after 30 mins.

That's when l33t warrior starts his "lols".

l33t warrior: lol
group leader elementalist who I later find out is actually a tank: haaahaa
l33t warrior: lmao lol 2.

warrior also asks what do I want claws for. I say it is for a focus item, +12 energy, 20% cast time and recharge.

l33t warrior: lol
l33t warrior: lol
l33t warrior: lol
l33t warrior: lmfao
(exact words, yes, lol x 3 + lmfao)
l33t warrior: I would sell that junk
i say: that's the best focus item I have access to at this point.

l33t warrior is request to trade with you.

I open up the trade window and he put in some fire staff. I don't care much so I close the window without looking at what that is.

l33t warrior: how long have you been playing. type /age
i say: if we wait any longer I will be pushing 50 hours. (we've been waiting for 15 mins now)
l33t warrior: i have 200 hours (or something) and I am wearing the best armor in game.

Group leader cannot find a 6th person so he decides to go with 5 people, which is fine.

So we come up to two Hydras, group leader elementalist goes up and starts casting ahead of the warrior. I forsee what's coming and cast a healing breeze on him and start spaming orison.

At this point ranger starts to take heavy damage and his life bar turns dark red faster than I can say doh.

so we finish those 2 hydras with ele tanking.

ranger: nice healing...
as I am casting rez i say: thanks to ele's tanking I guess...

so the ranger is now rezed and my energy bar is half empty (or half full depending on your personaility )

What I am not aware of is the warrior has gone north and has started attacking 3 hydras and the ele has gone east and has started nuking another group of hydras. both are good distance away from where I am rezing the ranger.

ele's life bar drops to 20% faster than I can say doh.
warrior's life bar is ok, still at 50% with 3 hydras chewing on him. best armor in game working out well, I know.

ele: monk heal me plz
ele: monk heal me plz
ele: monk heal me plz

i say:... I guess I am better off with a henchmen group

so I wrap back to town, but not before I stood there to make sure the tanking ele and the l33t warrior's life bars turn dark red.


So, what does this story have to do with this thread? here is my guess:

the tanking elementalist probably got his character advanced to this part of the game by getting ran.

for the l33t warrior? I don't know, but he's so l33t I can't wipe him out from this story.

(I did go back with a henchmen group and this time I got totally 6 claws from a clearing)

sorry for taking up so much bandwith and harddisk space for this silly story. but it's 4:45 and still good 15 mins before work hour end

I, myself don't bother/insult/flame people who do it, but this whole thread is started by people who do it bothering/insulting/flaming ANet for closing this loop hole.

Yes, I'm sure ANet is doing everything they can to seal off the only single bit of non-linearity they've accidentally put into the whole game.

Even if they were, it still wouldn't change the fact that it's currently a) very much possible and b) not against the rules. So the runners are still just people playing the game the way they feel like, and the people calling them cheaters, griefers, or lazy ass bastards are still just people who don't read the rules before spending their (parents'?) money. It's like wearing boxers to a black tie event then trying to convince everyone else that it's so hot outside.

Are you sure you're on the right thread? This thread was neither started by people who do it *nor* has had a single post flaming ANet for "closing the loop hole" - because they're *not* closing it, and it's *not* a loop hole.

You have to be really, really naive to think that Lornar's pass accidentally connects one of the lowest level areas in the game directly to the highest level city in the game, and just happens to be comprised of some of the toughest maps around.

Sure your entitled to it, as is everyone else. Wrong? Eh whatever floats your boat, im done with beating a dead horse.

See below.

Have anet come out and say "running to the forge is an exploit" yet? Have they said it was "against the spirit of the game"? I havent seen any offical statements from them saying this. When they do you bet ill change my view on all that ive said.. due to it being proved it is an exploit (i hate exploits and scumbags, see the arena thread) but for now I highly belive the running of the pass is not one. Now we may be fighting each other on the same side... but im pretty sure your talking about running to droknars in general and not the arena thing. And no, im not a scumbag, sorry. I don't cheat people out of anything, if anything I help.

I agree... theres no wiggle room. But I suggest you try and see it from the way im seeing it. I guarantee its 100% scumbag free. lol.

Edit: And oh yes! Please post the links if you find someone from arena saying it is. Thanks.

hmmmmm....... i always thought this was just a game.....

I did too and if it continues down this particular primrose path, it will be closed. Play nice, kids.

No that was the thread that decsended into petty flames and bickering although the rumour wasnt true anyway.

There are two seperate issues here, one is people using high-level equipment in the training arenas and Droknars rushing itself. The former will exist as long as it's possible to get to Droknars at < level 15. Not to mention those arenas are in no way fair to begin with and it's even easier to twink your level 10 with weapons and equipment than it is to get decent armour so unless all items are for a single character only there will always be inbalance in those arenas (aside from the fact that not all players have to be at the same level, you get teamed randomly etc.).

I'm not going to get into a big debate about Droknar running as most people have made up their mind and don't care how other people feel, although I will say I find it amusing that plenty of people are so quick to condemn runners who affect no-one directly by their actions but will complain that they can't farm forcing up the prices for everyone who doesn't farm or that they can't play the economy by making money off people who would like to use the materials to actually get the Droknars Forge armour. Not that I actually have a problem with these things but they have a far bigger impact on other players than the guy who gets run to Droknar for 3k so he doesn't have to waste 10's of platinum on the armourers inbetween Ascalon and Droknars.

Yes, it is a game. Games are ment to be fun, right? And people have fun getting rushed to Droknars, not having to worry about saving for armor, and have an easier time going through the game. All fun.

All of that is not an issue.

What IS an issue is the fact that many of the people who get rushed to Droknars enjoy beating the snot out of new characters (not necessarily new players) in the lowbie arenas. That's not fun for those getting unfairly beaten down. That's why there's a discussion here, because part of the game isn't fun anymore, and people want it fixed.

I can't believe someone actually had the nerve to suggest that Anet close down lowbie arenas, and that others agreed. You're going to close down a portion of the game for an entire level bracket just because people are cheating? That's just not fun for anyone, and it seems like you're just skirting around the issue.

Getting your feet wet in PvP shouldn't be such a frustrating experience. There are a lot of simple fixes: Restrict Droknar armor to a certain level bracket. Or restrict the lowbie Arenas to armor only available to a certain point. If either of those were implemented, everyone would be happy. Is there anyone who would find this unfair? Keep lowbie arenas for, uh, lowbies?

/rant. Bringing up the "it's just a game" thing pushed a button, so sorry if I sounded a bit harsh.

I think the point of this thread is more along the lines of "people, stop calling runners cheaters, it's frigging annoying." The whole "Suggestions to fix unfairness in lowbie Arenas" thing has a few threads going on over at the Sanitarium. Most people seem to agree it would be nice if ANet could minimize the advantages of having Droknar's armor in the low level arenas and such. I agree and I think it's important that anyone who has an idea about it voices their opinion, you just might have the brilliant idea ANet is waiting for.

So basicly Anet should put a restriction on level and gear of characters entering lower lv PvP areas... sounds only fair. But its still not cheating to get good armor early on.

How about gladiatorial arenas where combatants are stripped to skivvies and skill belts only? The player could opt which they preferred: Gladatorial or "Anything Goes" (meaning full armor/items/skills regardless of how godly)?