I find nerfs do more harm then they solve. The charactors at release will, most likley, be balanced *enough* for fun/engaging play. Of course exploits should be fixed, but no charactor should be nerfed "because his ability, (used properly), is just to strong"
The Worst feeling I'v experienced in RPG's is when I log on one day and my Charactor sucks, all because some whiney little 12-year-old got killed by me too many times.
I say before major changes, hold a mini beta, balance, release, fix expoits, but NO nerfs.
I'm sorry if this subject is taboo on these forums or somthing.
No Nerfs. Period.
Mouth-For-War
Auh
Have you used Fertile Season?
I'm sorry, but that skill needs a nerfing. In a PvP/GvG battle it gives any team the ability to not-lose, as long as they have a monk, while extending the battle-time 5-times or more than it should have taken.
I'm sorry, but that skill needs a nerfing. In a PvP/GvG battle it gives any team the ability to not-lose, as long as they have a monk, while extending the battle-time 5-times or more than it should have taken.
Slade xTekno
Two words:
Fertile Season
I know, I know. I'd call it a sadistic, hippophilic necrophile, but that would be beating a dead horse.
Fertile Season
I know, I know. I'd call it a sadistic, hippophilic necrophile, but that would be beating a dead horse.
Elonis
quite true.. to go from 400 hp which is what the balance is based on and raise it to 800+ throws off the balence just slightly enough to make problems. fertile season does need fixed for pvp.
Lunarhound
Arguments against Fertile Season aside, nerfing does, if it's done, need to be done very carefully in a game like Guild Wars. With the way skills work here, it's altogether possible for something to seem impossible to beat until you find the right skills to counter it.
While some changes will always need to occur (there's no such thing as perfect balance) it really irritates me when, the moment someone finds a good strategy and begins using it effectively, people begin crying "Nerf!" without even attempting to figure out if there's a way to trump it in-game. In DAoC and WoW, the strategy for beating other classes isn't to actually figure out how to use your own abilities to defeat theirs it's to go to the boards and whine for the devs to start nerfing a class/skill the moment you find that you can't seem to take them down.
Much of what combat in Guild Wars is about, is playing the skills against each other. No matter how powerful you think something is, test it thoroughly before moaning that it needs to be nerfed. If there's anything that has the potential to ruin GW, it's people who'd rather badger the devs into changing the game the moment they start encountering obstacles, rather than winning by actually playing.
While some changes will always need to occur (there's no such thing as perfect balance) it really irritates me when, the moment someone finds a good strategy and begins using it effectively, people begin crying "Nerf!" without even attempting to figure out if there's a way to trump it in-game. In DAoC and WoW, the strategy for beating other classes isn't to actually figure out how to use your own abilities to defeat theirs it's to go to the boards and whine for the devs to start nerfing a class/skill the moment you find that you can't seem to take them down.
Much of what combat in Guild Wars is about, is playing the skills against each other. No matter how powerful you think something is, test it thoroughly before moaning that it needs to be nerfed. If there's anything that has the potential to ruin GW, it's people who'd rather badger the devs into changing the game the moment they start encountering obstacles, rather than winning by actually playing.
Mercury Angel
Also, a skill may not need nerfing, so much as another skill needs revision to more effectively serve as a counter, or the creation of a brand new skill to deal with it.
Lunarhound
Exactly. It's my opinion that nerfing should be the last resort.
Slade xTekno
The fact is is that Fertile Season is beatable. There are accounts of how annoying it is, but there are also stories of how, after more time than should have been required, the team has won.
Anyone who has faced a team that stacks this spell will tell you that something needs to be done to prevent this from being abused. Just because it is defeatable does not mean that a technique is not disruptive to the game. I guess you could Counterspell a Time Spiral, but that's about it. Something that impacts the game so much needs a nerf.
Anyone who has faced a team that stacks this spell will tell you that something needs to be done to prevent this from being abused. Just because it is defeatable does not mean that a technique is not disruptive to the game. I guess you could Counterspell a Time Spiral, but that's about it. Something that impacts the game so much needs a nerf.
PawnBoy
I dunno, I always regarded nerfing as "rendering useless". Usually happens when something was "Uber"... so they nerf it...they go overboard on the reduction of power, instead of simply making it balanced with the other skills, they make it simply non-worth while to use. Since that is my definition of nerf...Nothing really needs a nerf.
P.S. I under stand that Fertile Season needs to balanced....
P.S. I under stand that Fertile Season needs to balanced....
Flame
People complain Fertile Seasons is insanely powerful. You know how to beat it? You hit the little spirit a few times, then it dies. The recharge time is 60 seconds, so you have that long to kill the Ranger. I've killed Warriors that were being supported by Monks faster than 30 seconds, and Warriors have higher health than Rangers. With a whole team, just have one person to knocking down the Monk while everyone beats on the Ranger.
Silmor
Unless the 'little spirit' is covered by a couple of other Fertile Season spirits, and has a whole lot of hitpoints for a 'little spirit' with redundancy in +HP buffs guaranteeing you won't bring it down. Multiple rangers taking along Fertile Season can take turns casting it, eliminating any issue the 60 second recharge could pose.
The full nature of the abuse is documented, read up on the issue before you easily dismiss it.
Fertile Season is a fine example of why balancing is a difficult issue - everyone was happy when the 5% death penalty on nature rituals was lifted, but at the same time it broke Fertile Season: now people can cast it without worrying they'll be stuck with 60% DP eventually. People cast it not to defeat the other team, but to force the other team to get bored and leave, thus getting a cheap win. Something like that needs to be addressed, it goes directly against the "is what I am doing now fun" mantra. Whether that is done through nerfing the skill or by introducing counters to it is up to ArenaNet, in this particular case nerfing seems a very sensible solution, since it will simply discourage people to attempt this abuse.
The full nature of the abuse is documented, read up on the issue before you easily dismiss it.
Fertile Season is a fine example of why balancing is a difficult issue - everyone was happy when the 5% death penalty on nature rituals was lifted, but at the same time it broke Fertile Season: now people can cast it without worrying they'll be stuck with 60% DP eventually. People cast it not to defeat the other team, but to force the other team to get bored and leave, thus getting a cheap win. Something like that needs to be addressed, it goes directly against the "is what I am doing now fun" mantra. Whether that is done through nerfing the skill or by introducing counters to it is up to ArenaNet, in this particular case nerfing seems a very sensible solution, since it will simply discourage people to attempt this abuse.
Epinephrine
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Flame
People complain Fertile Seasons is insanely powerful. You know how to beat it? You hit the little spirit a few times, then it dies. The recharge time is 60 seconds, so you have that long to kill the Ranger. I've killed Warriors that were being supported by Monks faster than 30 seconds, and Warriors have higher health than Rangers. With a whole team, just have one person to knocking down the Monk while everyone beats on the Ranger.
|
tektonik
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Flame
People complain Fertile Seasons is insanely powerful. You know how to beat it? You hit the little spirit a few times, then it dies. The recharge time is 60 seconds, so you have that long to kill the Ranger. I've killed Warriors that were being supported by Monks faster than 30 seconds, and Warriors have higher health than Rangers. With a whole team, just have one person to knocking down the Monk while everyone beats on the Ranger.
|
OutcastHawk
The point is, nothing needs to be nerfed, they just need to be balanced. Give some class something that disrupts Fertile Season, or make it so it isn't as good. But don't eliminate something just because people whine about it. There are ways to beat it, or else everyone would be playing Mo/R or R/Mo, and I sure don't see that.
Cain
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mouth-For-War
I find nerfs do more harm then they solve. The charactors at release will, most likley, be balanced *enough* for fun/engaging play. Of course exploits should be fixed, but no charactor should be nerfed "because his ability, (used properly), is just to strong"
The Worst feeling I'v experienced in RPG's is when I log on one day and my Charactor sucks, all because some whiney little 12-year-old got killed by me too many times. I say before major changes, hold a mini beta, balance, release, fix expoits, but NO nerfs. I'm sorry if this subject is taboo on these forums or somthing. |
EDIT: Having said all that, I agree that Fertile Season needs to be balanced.
perendengue
I think 'nerfing' became prelavent in daoc because your realm didn't have access to that particular ability or combo.
with guildwars you can both be on the sending and recieving side and thereby be more receptive to balancing...
I like to think that at least
with guildwars you can both be on the sending and recieving side and thereby be more receptive to balancing...
I like to think that at least
varyag
Quote:
|
Fertile Season Description Create a level 1-8 Spirit. For creatures within its range,maximum health is increased by 50-474 and they gain +24 armor. This Spirit dies after 30-78 seconds. Energy Cost 5 Casting Time 5 seconds Recharge Time 30 seconds Skill Type Nature Ritual - Linked Attribute Beast Mastery |
For little resource loss and without any real weaknesses a person is able to severely slow down a fight. Killing a spirit is not the solution, with several rangers (primary or secondary) the spell can be recast every 15-20 seconds.
The solution is to double casting time, make energy cost 20 and recharge time 60 - or alternatively make the spell at least two times weaker then it is.
I don't see how this skill is balanced or has any natural enemies.
perendengue
just make it so it doesn't stack, problem solved I would think...
Gerbill
Nerf ? no
Balance ? yes
that's my opinion.
There should always be a way to be beaten, there should not be a perfect built, thus everything should be balanced.
Just because you lose as one proffesion to another might just mean that the professions you have are utterly weak vs what you were up against.
If a skill is too outrageous it needs some serious balancing
Balance ? yes
that's my opinion.
There should always be a way to be beaten, there should not be a perfect built, thus everything should be balanced.
Just because you lose as one proffesion to another might just mean that the professions you have are utterly weak vs what you were up against.
If a skill is too outrageous it needs some serious balancing
tektonik
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by perendengue
just make it so it doesn't stack, problem solved I would think...
|
perendengue
ah, I see...that would be a mess.
then a solution would be to not allow them in areas that overlap, get an interrupt when you cast it and one is active in your current area..
then a solution would be to not allow them in areas that overlap, get an interrupt when you cast it and one is active in your current area..
Elonis
why not make a new skill for monk class that kills spirits summoned by rangers or make the spirit itself die easily and the skill take larger to recast. a recharge time of 120 seconds sounds nice 
but it makes sense that if you use a skill as strong as fertile season there sould be a down side to it.
Also i have a question.. do two fertile seasons boost each other? i dont think spirits should affect other spirits.
but it makes sense that if you use a skill as strong as fertile season there sould be a down side to it.Also i have a question.. do two fertile seasons boost each other? i dont think spirits should affect other spirits.
Pevil Lihatuh
I have mixed opinions on nerfing. I agree it should be a last resort, especially ins omething like this. after all, if i understand it correctly, the point of this game is to be skillful in building and manipulating your character. Tactics etc.
For example, I don't know how many of you have (if any) played Sacred. In the original version, the Wood Elf was told her skills of Multi Hit and Multi Shot were too powerful. So they got nerfed. Then the Dark Elf had a trap that basically stopped monsters attacking for a short duration. Someone complained, it got nerfed. Now the Battle mage is getting constantly told he is overpowered, whilst the wood elf has a new overpowered skill. The thing with this game is, the battle mage is overpowered if you build him well, otherwise he constantly dies. The wood elfs new 'godly' skill was never godly before, it just seems godly because her old skill got made worse. Nearly every character in Sacred has been told it was overpowered at some time or another. Why? Because people figure out a good build and post build guides that people follow.
Of course sometimes there are skills that are obviously overpowered, and anything in guild wars that can easily be used even if you have no skill in the game at all would be one of those, but you have to be careful about what you do.
For example, I don't know how many of you have (if any) played Sacred. In the original version, the Wood Elf was told her skills of Multi Hit and Multi Shot were too powerful. So they got nerfed. Then the Dark Elf had a trap that basically stopped monsters attacking for a short duration. Someone complained, it got nerfed. Now the Battle mage is getting constantly told he is overpowered, whilst the wood elf has a new overpowered skill. The thing with this game is, the battle mage is overpowered if you build him well, otherwise he constantly dies. The wood elfs new 'godly' skill was never godly before, it just seems godly because her old skill got made worse. Nearly every character in Sacred has been told it was overpowered at some time or another. Why? Because people figure out a good build and post build guides that people follow.
Of course sometimes there are skills that are obviously overpowered, and anything in guild wars that can easily be used even if you have no skill in the game at all would be one of those, but you have to be careful about what you do.
Sting
This reminds me of SWG arguments about certain templates being to strong and SOE doing absolutly nothing about them and it cost them 70% of there player base (honestly dont see them making it) so doing nothing isnt the anser. The other side is DAoC and their NERF happy sledgehammer LOL the Ranger in there went from a great maybe over powered to being a worthless joke. So basicly what im saying is use baby nerfs to fix something.
Weezer_Blue
How, then, will you rebalance a game other than nerfing things? Think about a game that has not had the slightest attempt to become balanced. One of the greatest things about Guild Wars is that it is the most balanced game that, to my knowledge, exists.
Loviatar
dont forget that all the nerfing to someone is game balance to another
also the retail buyer who has not played before will never know that x has been nerfed xx amount they will simply go what a nicely balanced game
also the retail buyer who has not played before will never know that x has been nerfed xx amount they will simply go what a nicely balanced game
Mouth-For-War
If fertile season truly is unbalanced and being exploited, it will be changed by the alpha version. Betas all ways have problems, its no big deal, if you play a beta, expect it.
In alpha versions of games, truly unfair spells are gone (exept by incompetence of the programers, and the guys of GW are pros)
My problem is that, like Lunarhound was saying, Players get beaten by a strategy, but instead of finding a way to defeat it, they want it done away with. This ruins games.
Im sure fertile season is anoying, but let the noobies have there fun, heres a view for you: some people suck at gaming. Give them easy spells that offer them a chance, but make sure other strats that require skill can defeat them.
In alpha versions of games, truly unfair spells are gone (exept by incompetence of the programers, and the guys of GW are pros)
My problem is that, like Lunarhound was saying, Players get beaten by a strategy, but instead of finding a way to defeat it, they want it done away with. This ruins games.
Im sure fertile season is anoying, but let the noobies have there fun, heres a view for you: some people suck at gaming. Give them easy spells that offer them a chance, but make sure other strats that require skill can defeat them.
Auh
There was one skill that could remove the most recent Nature Ritual there was, But I don't remember what it was, and I do remember it took a lot of energy and a high recast time, I believe more energy and more of a recast time than Fertile Season takes.
Anyways, The skill was balanced before they removed the Death Penalty for Spirits. I'm not sure if it would've been balanced if that DP was still intact.
Anyways, The skill was balanced before they removed the Death Penalty for Spirits. I'm not sure if it would've been balanced if that DP was still intact.
Kha
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Auh
There was one skill that could remove the most recent Nature Ritual there was, But I don't remember what it was, and I do remember it took a lot of energy and a high recast time, I believe more energy and more of a recast time than Fertile Season takes.
|
tastegw
kill a spirit or the monk healing it
scourge healing and just start attacking it.
ive played against and with this spirit and no i ddint like it.
it was anoying but at the same time its helpful.
used near your guild lord or your preist is a good example of its use put to good.
but like everything, there are counters to get rid of them.
kill the rangers that are summoning these spirits.
bring a debuffing necro and he/she can really put a dent into that sprit for an easy killing.
just too many ways to get past it, i think it shoudl remaine the way it is becuase its one less skill that that ranger can "hurt" you with.
scourge healing and just start attacking it.
ive played against and with this spirit and no i ddint like it.
it was anoying but at the same time its helpful.
used near your guild lord or your preist is a good example of its use put to good.
but like everything, there are counters to get rid of them.
kill the rangers that are summoning these spirits.
bring a debuffing necro and he/she can really put a dent into that sprit for an easy killing.
just too many ways to get past it, i think it shoudl remaine the way it is becuase its one less skill that that ranger can "hurt" you with.
Slade xTekno
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by SuperJ24
kill a spirit or the monk healing it
scourge healing and just start attacking it. ive played against and with this spirit and no i ddint like it. it was anoying but at the same time its helpful. used near your guild lord or your preist is a good example of its use put to good. but like everything, there are counters to get rid of them. kill the rangers that are summoning these spirits. bring a debuffing necro and he/she can really put a dent into that sprit for an easy killing. just too many ways to get past it, i think it shoudl remaine the way it is becuase its one less skill that that ranger can "hurt" you with. |
Jin_Krathmor
for the love of god get your definition of nerfing straight and stop using it improperly.
nerfing != balancing
balancing == balancing
nerfing is when you take something that was once useful and render it useless.
my two cents: higher energy costs 25 (concussion shot requires 25) and the inability to cast again until the spirit is gone and a 60 second recharge to re-cast if the spirit is killed prematurely (provides an incintive to protect the spirit).
nerfing != balancing
balancing == balancing
nerfing is when you take something that was once useful and render it useless.
my two cents: higher energy costs 25 (concussion shot requires 25) and the inability to cast again until the spirit is gone and a 60 second recharge to re-cast if the spirit is killed prematurely (provides an incintive to protect the spirit).
Mouth-For-War
Ok, good comments, but this thread isnt about fertile season, its about nerfing in general.
I seriosly think the nerfing/balancing should be extremly minimal, only in emergencies. (ie: a certain strat becomes unbeatable under all circumstances)
You can say you dont like nerfing, but are you completly behind the above mentioned? I just want to know if I'm alone in this or if others feel similar.
Please no more on fertile season or I'll ask to lock the thread.
I seriosly think the nerfing/balancing should be extremly minimal, only in emergencies. (ie: a certain strat becomes unbeatable under all circumstances)
You can say you dont like nerfing, but are you completly behind the above mentioned? I just want to know if I'm alone in this or if others feel similar.
Please no more on fertile season or I'll ask to lock the thread.