Skills - Mind Wrack

Err no they both suck because if you have the right build you won't be using them.

The only possibly efficient use is wastrels worry in a soul barbs build and that requires a team build around it, not just a single character.

Other than the above instance wastrels is just a crappy dot.

Mind wrack doesn't belong in an energy denial build, first off, because primary mesmer is subpar at energy denial (R/Me and W/Me are much better for that job), and secondly, because it actually HURTS your energy denial capability to put on a rather mediocre amount of damage for the sacrifice needed. And sticking MW on a echo debil ranger or a fear me warrior is just stupid, just the same as using a primary mesmer for full energy denial.

As for being a good cover hex, yeah, it's a decent one at that (but doesn't provide any good hex value). Spirit shackles is a solid anti-ranger skill; actually it's the only good mesmer anti-ranger skill besides diversion. However, a cover hex is not necessary to waste a skill slot. Why waste the skill slot just to prevent the hex from getting removed easily when you can interrupt/divert the skill instead? Spirit shackles doesn't need a cover hex anyway, look at the recharge. You can brute force it through the longer remove hex recharge or divert it instead. Cover hexes are better for stuff like barbs ( ) that has a long recharge time and can't be pushed through many remove hexes.

If you want to make focus switching a painful process, that means you're going to be needing to use malaise and wither. So essentially you're doing 80 damage for 20 energy of your own and very little disruption of the monk. Great idea

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lmao...you silly silly people

PLEASE dont use this skill...that will make it even easier for us to kick your arses in tombs..

gg DRNK

on a somewhat related side note: I once rang for a guild with pretty decent players that was testing a heavy energy denial build with mind wrack as the main offensive weapon. Words cannot begin to describe it.

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dont even bother man...this skill owns, it owns hard as hell

if these people think its noob and dont want to use it...let them

dont educate the ignorant...because they will just argue it

Someone told me "Renewal stops necros from putriding" I told him he was exactly right and we went our seperate ways

i saw some mesmerspell in the Lions Arch area that is great withtthis i cant seem to reeber what its called i jut remember waht it does evry timean enemy atacks they lose energy it was a SERIOUS PAIN INTHE BUTT but acn anyone tell me what it is called? or where rto get it?

spirit shackles

I think this energy cheap spell may be easy to use as a spell against a ranger or a warrior, before or after Spirit Shackles, and, or, before Energy Burn and some energy stealing spells.

Mesmers lack quality skills for 5 energy, I've noticed. Hell, they lack skills at 5 energy PERIOD.

That in mind, Mind Wrack is actually quite nice. Highly spammable (for a mesmer), cheap, and can deal a chunk of damage in the process of doing other things. In an energy denial build, your goal is NOT to trigger Mind Wrack, but rather to keep them from doing anything useful. This skill has a large psychological effect: Drop it on them, and then start casting your energy burn/drain/whatever. Even if you don't bottom out their energy, they'll see what you're doing, and will likely NOT want to take 85 damage (domination at 14 gets you that much). How to avoid triggering Mind Wrack? Don't use skills that cost you energy. What does that leave? Attacking with a weapon?

This is where people suggest Spirit Shackles. Frankly, I don't like that skill. The casting time is rather long for such a non-damaging skill. All it's really good for when it comes to triggering Mind Wrack is against Warriors and Rangers. For casters, I suggest Empathy instead. That'll get you more damage than they'll be dealing. But that's for another thread.

Mind Wrack's spammability is an important trait. No, it won't trigger repeatedly on 0 energy, but most casters get back slightly more than 1 energy per second (I say most, due to certain... extenuating circumstances). If they have to recharge 5 energy to cast that spell (likely a monk here), it'll take them 4 seconds. Before that time, you can EASILY cast another Mind Wrack on them. Oh yeah... and in those 4 seconds, you just recovered 5 energy, as well. In addition, not only is it a good cover hex, but the spammability makes it VERY hard to actually get rid of. It simply recharges faster than the hex removal I've seen, and costs the same, if not less.

Is it a 1-hit kill? No, it is not. Is it overpowered? Not really. Is it worthless? Not at all. I've used it with a not insignifigant amount of success in GvG matches. I can safely say that monks REALLY don't like this skill.

You can read more on why Mind wrack is bad compliments of blackace at this link:

http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/show...4&page=1&pp=25

It's really too bad that many people will turn away from great skills like Mind Wrack based on relentless ragging by others. No skill is perfect, and some need extra effort to make them shine at their best. Using Mind Wrack takes a lot of work and practice to get something consistent out of it, but when it works well it's pretty awesome - not in the overt spiking Air Ele sense, but it is still a very effective tool.

Energy draining is a great tactic in the game, but in the end you only get the win when the other team dies. With a solid Mind Wrack build complementing the team, you get the best of both worlds on your target since the only way it damages the health bar is when you also deplete their energy. For a solo build it is difficult but possible to get consistent results, but with a teammate in sync with you, you can really have a significant effect on the battlefield.

There are two phases to a good Mind Wrack build: energy draining then energy denial+Mind Wrack at 0E. Phase 1 only needs to be done once per target in most cases. Depending on your methods, your target class and the amount of time passed on the field, you can get them to 0 energy rather quickly, or over a bit of tiime.

Phase 2 requires the most finesse as a Mind Wracking Mesmer. To get the most out of its potential, you need to be prepared to manage your energy use closely while you implement your skill set. To me, this requires using what I call, a "perfect cycle". Not perfect as in it can't be stopped, interrupted, etc (any skill is vulnerable). A Mind Wrack cycle in Phase 2 is perfect when it can punish an opponent with MW without ever allowing a 5E cast like Orison of Healing at least four times.

I've come up with a lot of "perfect cycles" for my Mind Wrack builds. It's deeply rewarding when they work, and I'm always looking for more (two more ideas tonight as a matter of fact). To do it, you need solid energy denial skills that recharge quickly. Four great choices are Ether Lord, Panic, Malaise, and Wither. They each have pros and cons, and they each have ways that allow you to get around their weaknesses.

As you can see from this list of rather unpopular skills (ignore the critics), using MW isn't for beginners; it takes practiced ability and a lot of initial patience to be able to get it right. Here is a good perfect Mind Wrack cycle that works very well (after their energy is drained):

- Malaise, Mind Wrack, Ether Feast and a casting or recharge adjuster

Now, what happens here is that as soon as they reach 0E (there are several ways to know this for sure), you lay down Malaise for energy denial. They go from +1.3E a second as a caster, to .6 a second. Normal recharge time gives them 5E in four seconds. With Malaise on them, they need just over eight seconds to hit 5E. With the regen slowed, you can put Mind Wrack on them and proceed to trigger it with an energy zap skill. Ether Feast is one of the best as it takes 5E pretty often (8 second recharge).

So you cast Ether Feast... now what? Malaise ends, so they are back at +1.3E a second, and you are waiting eight seconds for Ether Feast to come back (Mind Wrack takes five). Malaise has a fast recharge, so lay it down again, but what of the other two? That's why you need a fourth skill (on solo builds) to either give you more casting flexibility or to improve the recharges. Some of my favorites (you only need one):

- Mantra of Recovery {E}... For up to 18 seconds you get MW recharged every 2.5 seconds, and Ether Feast every 4 seconds. It is impossible for the enemy to cast (shoot power arrows, use power non adrenal attacks, etc.) as long as you are running a perfect cycle with these kind of recovery times. Honestly, it's good enough to really not need Malaise in most cases. They BARELY have time for a 5E cast, and keep in mind your other energy denial skills from Phase 1 are likely recharging in time to help more (Energy Tap, Energy Burn, whatever).

- Archane Echo/Echo... either one will work great. Copy Ether Feast and you're set. Yes, that skill still recharges in eight seconds, but while you have a copy, you can use one of them every time MW recharges (every 5s). Malaise keeps them from ever reaching 5E in time. Again, this works really well in keeping them from casting (or using any energy skill) until you run out of energy, somone helps them, or they die.

Skills like Mind Wrack will always get passed over by the masses if their benefits aren't as obvious as Lightning spikes, etc. Do yourselves a favor for this and any other maligned skill - find out for yourself what you can do for you and/or your team if you plan and integrate it well. Don't just blindly accept negative reviews as the final word no matter how often the complaints are repeated.

Doing two things at a mediocre level is less efficient than doing 1 extremely well.

Blood magic is an excellent example of that.

Everything is relative, including the words "mediocre" and "extremely well". Depending on the type of game format being played and the focus of the player/team using a build, the adjectives don't always accurately describe what's happening in the field of play. Monk enchants can be described as doing their thing "extremely well" until they face an anti-enchant team. Fragility was seen by some as barely worth the effort, and now I see people calling players noobs if they don't bring Hex Breaker to stop it (forcing a defense into one's skill bar = impact spell).

For once, let's stop the general promotion of ignorance. Ignorance as in "not knowing". It's impossible to expect that anyone has tested every skill with every possible mix of seven others... att. points included. All of us are ignorant about various things in the game, but to happily splash around in ignorance like a pig in mud is ridiculous. I'm not directing this specifically at anyone, but towards the overall attitude that some have when they are learning about the game just like the rest of us.

I use Mind Wrack (besides tons of other non-MW builds). I get results. Not in forum theory, but out on the field. I look through threads, including this one, and see others get results. You talk about "mediocre" as if you've run every possible MW build 100+ times to feel each one's full ins and outs. That's ignorant. No one will ever say energy draining is a bad tactic, and draining 2 or 2.5 enemies is effective. Also, being a pure killer is obviously a good focused tactic, as you can't win in most cases without putting the opponent six feet under. Mind Wrack is an effective way to do both of these things to one target.

He has no energy so he can't save himself, or hurt you or your teamates. He soon has no health, so we have the greatest advantage by way of numbers. Cool. Sure, I can choose to leave him while he recharges, he's back to being somewhat effective in 7-10 seconds as I drain enemy #2. This isn't a bad strategy, but to say that going one step further and killing that drained opponent is "mediocre" is ridiculous. He's dead or dying BUT he has no easy way to help himself. His team must rescue him in most cases or he dies. Their attention is diverted as one of theirs is near dead with no energy to contribute to the rescue mission. Already that's a major boost to our team.

Sure, there are obstacles that come into play (just like ANY other strat), but the control you have on a opponent who's caught in a Mind Wrack perfect cycle is tremendous. Not just denying energy and leaving him as healthy as a horse. Not just attacking his health bar, while he has energy to fight back/effectively heal. But imposing the ultimate gimp on him when you are simultaneously draining BOTH bars. Yes, a bit slower than pure anti-energy or anti-health, but drained together it can be at times the most perilous.

A dying enemy with full energy can help himself/hurt you... and possibly heal a lot of the damage he lost. Not under an efficient Mind Wrack cycle he can't do it as easily - he dies with 0E and at 0H. A energy drained foe is still healthy enough to wait a bit while the heat is off him, ready to get back into some of the action in around 10 seconds or less. Not under an efficient Mind Wrack cycle he can't do it as easily - he dies with 0E and 0H.

I went ahead and read through that link above, and its amazng at how much common sense is tossed aside in favor of ignorance. My post above takes care of some of the key criticisms made there, especially that of Orison negating the damage of MW. I easily deal with some of the other issues mentioned there as well, and come up with new techniques all the time. You can't stop every counter, but there are many, many unexplored, innovative options. It's not a simple-to-pickup skill but with practice, it is quietly, but consistently really effective.

I choose not to remain ignorant. Anyone can simply dismiss something as worthless - I see it done around here all the time. Maybe it's time we instead say "I haven't seen any good use of skill X yet" when it comes to things we don't think much of. I have my doubts on some moves too, but I stay low key on it because you never know how someone might have a use for it. This attitude gives the benefit of the doubt to other players who may come up with good ideas later on that you haven't yet considered.

Ignorant. Purely ignorant. You have no idea "what I know" about Mind Wrack. Instead of sitting around, whining and complaining about it, I took the time to come up with ways to good results out of the skill. That's the key word...results. I'm not using forum theory to praise something... it is perfectly capable in builds of acheiving nice results in a way few other skills allow: anti health AND anti energy. No skill or strategy is unstoppable, but to say that MW is one of the worst of the game is just blind ignorance.

Answer: the team wins, the team loses. People have shared how they've had success with their matches using MW as well. No other build bad or great (or anywhere in between) survives on its own. I win with Mind Wrack, I lose with it. When it works, it works well and is FAR from being useless.

We are talking about a skill. A skill you have put into the worthless bin. It helps to completely neutralize a single target of team's choosing. Unlike almost any other skill to build around (except maybe debilitating shot), it helps achieve one of the most difficult but rewarding results in the game - an enemy who has low life and no energy simultaneously. So the question is, why people think its worthless when the ideal use of it is very beneficial for certain strategies.

That brings us back to your ignorant statements - already one of them is clearly shot shot down in flames. You complained that Orison can neutralize any MW damage since a caster only needs 5E to cast it. Fine... I've shown but a few ways around that. There are probably a lot of other ways to achieve similar results.

I am not saying here that MW builds are another instant-impact tactic like Air Ele or Smite builds or Fragility madness. Spiking is not what it does. Ideally it is used to take the concept of draining energy on a foe to that next step - killing him. Whether solo or as part of a team effort, it does achieve what few other skills can take advantage of when it works. As a person who's just received a lot of focus from an enemy's tactics, which of these makes you worse off?

A) Low health, lots of energy (casting is still possible to save you)
B) Low energy, lots of health (recharging is possible to come back to fight in a bit)
C) Low health AND low energy (your survival options are severely limited)

Nothing makes a character more useless to his team than getting him to option C. That's why Mind Wrack is worth considering, and that's why when it works, it obviously is working well to help the team win. It is also why it is difficult to make many different builds to achieve option C because its impact is pretty strong.

With one complaint dealt with, how else do you wish to show that Mind Wrack is "utterly useless"? You mention I don't understand "energy regeneration and energy management, focus switching"... care to teach me?

Who the hell cares about some MTG talks... this is a VERY specific issue brought up. Stop zig zagging to other issues. You state clearly, over and over that Mind Wrack is worthless. It's utterly useless. One of the worse skills available. And we can see some of the things you post to back it up are full of holes, showing how ignorant you are of what can be done to mitigate most of the concerns. ALL skills have counters, nothing is truly unstoppable or any skill brought up can be described as "worthless". But to step up and claim that a skill has no worth and then supporting it with erroneous info is pitiful.

BTW, I specifically said it is NOT a spike skill. Pure damage builds have the potential to spike, this achieves good damage while rendering the target helpless. Pure energy denial builds gets them to 0E faster than most MW builds too. However, Mind Wrack is all about achieving as much as possible in bringing BOTH of their status bars (health and energy) to 0. Please just TRY to argue that this isn't a worthwhile goal if it can be achieved. Once you have someone spamming nothing more than gimped arrows/wand casts at you as their gasping last defense, you'd see how much of a difference this makes. Back to your wide-spread myths:

Enemy's energy recharge rate potentially defeats any damage done by Mind Wrack. Yes it takes just under 4 seconds of recharge to get enough energy for a caster to do something useful... but it's laughable that you then choose to shut your mind off at that point to consider there are ways to reduce or remove the issue. The complaint is just one obstacle that a build must consider to mitigate, but it does NOT keep Mind Wrack from being useful. This complaint is officially dead. Do not ever mention it again in your defense - ignorance in the face of knowledge is stupidity.

And now you say above that issues of "Energy regeneration and energy management, focus switching" are other reasons that a Mind Wrack build is pure trash, and why it has no use whatsoever. I ask again, elaborate a bit please. Explain how that nonsense statement somehow forces Mind Wrack into the worthless trash pile.

Mind wrack works. A mesmer can easily kill a monk, warrior, or anything in short order using this and wastrels with an energy denial build, if they don't get help, mind wrack activates exactly when you need it and want it to. If they do get help, that's help someone else isn't getting.

HOWEVER, this whole debate is a moot point, since no one in their right mind could argue that mind wrack on your drained target is better than diversion spammed on a secondary target, and you won't have the time, energy, or enough slots in your skill bar to do both.

That depends on how the team is built. All skills potentially can have a major or minor role in the 64 slots available. If you have two others who are spamming Diversion on primary casters, perhaps MW is the role of a third Mesmer character. Once an opponent is at 0E he can't fight back, so there's no need to use Diversion on him. But a Mind Wrack death ensures he can't recover in the next 10 seconds to again be a pain in the butt to your team.

Sure, having both a 0E enemy and a Diverted enemy are definitely plusses (I have builds around that too), but its temporary. Eventually, your team WILL have to kill them in most game modes, and even though your team is likely outfitted to maximize their damage in many ways during this advantage, an easy death during gimp phase is not a guarantee.

Like a Power Play in hockey, you don't always score the goal when the other team is hobbled. Diversion wears off. Energy recharges. But a dead opponent who feebly went down with no energy must be rezzed. Remeber the end of Saving Private Ryan (spoilers)? The gimped Nazi came back in the end and blew the captain away. If they had Mind Wracked him instead of just letting him walk away with no E (Equipment that is), that tragedy wouldn't have happend.

The numbers on Mind Wrack aren't bad at all. In a 1v1 situation it'll hold it's own as well. But that's irrelevant. The reason that it is such a bad skill is that as soon as you put it on your bar, you start playing sub-optimally. Before you had mind wrack on your bar, you were running strong energy denial. Great, I'd have you on a pug any day of the week. But then you subbed out a useful skill for Mind Wrack. Now instead being immensly useful in winning a resource war and hence pretty much winning by default, you've stuck yourself to one target, doing average damage, while 7 other players who you should have been helping lock-down are running rampant.

That's the problem with Mind Wrack. It makes you play a certain way, and that way isn't optimally beneficial to the team. That's why people like Blackace hate the skill so much. It takes a useful player with 7 great skills on their bar that can tip an entire match, and turns them into a sub-par ganker.

That's short sighted. No class is relagated to only a few specific tasks in every build. Warriors can be energy drainers, Rangers can focus on interrupts, and a Mesmer primary can be as damaging as any in the game. If your build only needs a Mesmer or two to energy drain or interrupt 2+ people each, then obviously you bring in skills that purely supports that effort. But each character can excel at many different things depending on what's needed from them, and how your team compensates in other areas. This is about having more options available.

And if a team is already are comfortable with other Energy draining/Interrupting players doing that job, you can afford to mix in a different type of skill set for the next rep of that class. No, its not for everyone, but it's an option that can be taken advantage of. It has a very specific purpose that few skills can offer in the right type of builds: anti-energy AND anti-life.

If you have a gimped monk running around with no energy, you have helped the team no doubt. But he can go away, recover energy and be at near full strength if your team couldn't take some one down during this "Power Play". If that same monk has been drained of a lot of health, it often takes them two seconds to zip back up to 75% life in a lot of cases, even under heavy focused fire.

The Mind Wrack approach deals with these two possibilites well. No, not as pure of an anti energy or anti health approach as the pure builds can do, but the end result can potentially be more devasting to the opponent. That same monk with no energy AND low health from Mind Wracking (and other attacks) has no energy options available to help himself, and needs more resources from the team to survive as he has few options to do it alone. Again, maybe one or two skills maximized on a build in the game can realistically energy gimp a player to death. It isn't easy but it can be done.

That's MW's potential significance. Some teams may benefit from seeing one energy gimped enemy die as opposed to energy gimping two that survive. It doesn't have to be an either/or decision, since ideally you can maximze energy drainage as a team and still make room for skills like Mind Wrack that help kill a gimped enemy so he can't come back with energy recovered abilities. The bottom line however that it's clearly not a useless skill with no value at all. Just like any others, it has pros and cons, but when it works the team benefits from the results - a dead opponent who had no energy to help him fight back or save himself.

In the end, a lot of what's been said about it was just wrong. If all of that stuff was correct, maybe I'd agree about the skill being "worthless", but errors abound so corrections must be made. I still wait for details on energy regen, energy management and focus switching as far as how it further pushes Mind Wrack into the trash bin.

I think you're missing some of the main benefits of energy denial here. When best used, it's not something that you use for single target lockdown, but rather team-wide preemtive distruption. You want to use it on all the eles so they can't coordinate a spike. You want to use it on all the monks so you don't have to worry about things like Aegis and Spellbreaker and spammed heals. You want it to break a knockdown chain stopping the energy skill in the middle of it. Eventually you'll have the entire team locked down, but that takes time and patience, but once you get there it's just a matter of cleaning up.

If you're running Mind Wrack, all of a sudden you can't achieve that goal, because you've stuck yourself to one character. And of course, when you're commited to a single character like that, they've got an easy counter: they run. They can't cast any spells, so why should they hang around while you hammer them? Good monks who you energy lock will pull back far enough that you've either got to switch targets, or find yourself separated from the group. On the other hand, if you've got all the monks hovering at <10 energy, they'll hold their ground because they can still operate at 50% efficiency. That's what you want. You want the other team to try and hold their ground while they slowly drown from lack of energy. As soon as they start running and regrouping, things can go to hell.

The other main thing is with the amount of drains you have, you can keep 3 people a <10 energy, or 1 person stuck at 0. That's because your drains aren't 100% effective on someon locked below 5 energy. Instead of getting a 20 energy swing every 20 seconds from energy drain, you're now getting probably a neutral result, or a 5 energy swing at most. They loose 5, you net 0. Same goes for any other drain that you're using to lockdown a target, so they effect just snowballs. When both teams are running denial, this becomes extremely important. By keeping someone locked at 0, you're costing yourself energy, and also giving the other team more to work with.

Now there are situations where this isn't such a problem. You'd probably get a away with it in 4v4, or if you're hitting a team with little energy managment. But overall, the costs far outweigh the benefits.

I'm not missing anything. I've acknowledged SEVERAL times that the team build may require more specific uses from the mesmer (or any class) to acheive its goal. I'm aware of various energy denial builds, how they interact with a team, and fully respect that role. I've made my own, and even got together with friends to measure the range of various AoE effects by our chosen characters just so we can better map out how we wish to approach these kind of issues on the battlefield.

It's not about me missing something, it's about forum theorists blowing off something - which is simply adding more options, not replacing viable ones. Some people want to minimize and limit what's possible by certain classes, and that's just what is implied when the Mesmer is forever stuck in the energy drain/spell interrupt mindset that is already too old for words (not the tactic, but the close-minded attitude). Like I said above, it all depends on what and how you want to go about playing - no limits to how to put together various ideas to acheive desired results. A Monk is a healer, but nothing stops him from smiting. A Ranger can debuff casters, drain energy and interrupt. Limiting potential roles accomplishes very little by preventing one from being open to more possibilities.

I am not having an either/or debate here. It isn't whether one type of build is necessarily better. It's about whether this one skill has any use in any way. If whether MW is indeed one of the worst pieces of garbage in the game. To determine that, one must first understand its limitations and what can possibly be done to get around it. They must also understand how well it can work at its peak efficiency (solo and/or team) The ignorance shown so far tells me that step one and two haven't yet been acheived by some, let alone watching them stumble as they try to assess its viability.

Now while the conversation has centered on MW from a solo character point-of-view, I've also mentioned several times that best results come from how it interacts with teamwork. That's what you're referring to right? Teamwork. Well, it is not ridiculous to think that MAYBE some team can get some mileage out of this and other maligned spells. The concept isn't rocket science. As much as you want to emphasize the thrills of denying energy (individual or team, which again I can appreciate), eventually you do plan on killing the gimped enemies, correct? I mean, energy denial is just a means to an eventual end. Taking health is all about going directly to the "end".

So when damage is ready to be applied, it all comes down to how and by whom. There are far too many variables to cover in determining this but suffice it to say, using Mind Wrack to deal -20% attacks to an enemy who can NOT retaliate with his energy is working towards the team goal of victory. It's not the issue whether one build both drains one foe and Mind Wracks him (although its possible), or whether a couple of Fear Me! Warriors with AoE energy draining skills like MoI+Signet of Weariness do most of the work first. As long as it is possible for MW to contribute, it has worth for the people who work it into their plans.

In your view, running Mind Wrack means you can't contribute in other ways.... wrong yet again. I can absolutely contribute with a Mind Wrack build even if I'm not in MW mode. Here's one of many ways it can fit in a build that contributes to energy draining:

Mind Wrack - 15
Fast Cast - 9
Inspiration - 12
Curses - 3

Energy Drain
Power Leak
Malaise
Mind Wrack
Ether Feast
Archane Echo
***Defense***
***Your Choice***

Here you have options. All of the options contribute to the team goal of draining energy on one or two targets. Obviously if the team wants AoE draining, a different build is in order, but this one fits decently into most of those kind of plans. 5E Malaise recharges in 2 seconds, and can be tossed on a couple of players for -2E regen. Protect it with Mind Wrack if you wish. Archane Echo can copy Energy Drain (-18E) or Power Leak (-25E), the combo of which gimps any primary target fairly early. I like to cast A.Echo extra early to regen the 15E, that way I hardly have mana issues. Ether Feast easily replaces any Malaise damage to yourself while offering minor but steady energy draining. Altogether, you can use the big drainage on the casters and use the minor ones on the Warrior/Rangers.

Now when it comes time to reap the benefits of an energy drained opponent, most accpeted e-denial builds move on. Do you just wand spam all these energy empty enemies? Why not consider there is a Phase II for your efforts. With Mind Wrack, you first helped by draining key targets, and now you help put them down for good. You do not have to consider yourself tied ONLY into MW if you have options to aid in other ways. All those skills listed double as assistants to Mind Wrack when you are ready to apply a perfect cycle (again, not perfect as in unstoppable, but perfect at preventing 5E recovery).

So when you do choose to do a little more, MW offers an option. If opponents are drained, something like my Mind Wrack cycles get the job done. It isn't even debatable... continuous, painful damage on a foe that can't retaliate. And the way a perfect cycle works is that you are maintaining the energy gimp on perhaps the the most dangerous foe chosen WHILE you kill him. it is doing TWO things, not one. He will not be a factor in the game, as opposed to just out of commission for 10 seconds. You aren't simply laying down about 20% damage every 2.5-5 seconds, you are also keeping him from doing anything useful for an extended period until he dies.

You ask why I keep hammering a gimped enemy with no energy... because he's not dead yet! I've been drained in other builds plenty of times. yes I don't like it, but I'm back in the action taking care of business in time. My team may suffer in my absence true, but after 15 seconds when you go off to gimp someone else, I'm alive, in full health, with 20 energy points! With various Mind Wrack builds set on me during that period of time, I can instead be dying or dead while constantly locked at 0 energy points. How can ANYONE call that worthless? C'mon man, you have more sense than that i can tell... don't try and claim that if achieved, the second results are definitely showing a productive outcome. You say "one opponent stuck at 0E" is what this is about... no. A dying/dead enemy who can not easily save himself or harm others is what MW used properly is about.

Can he run? Sure he can. As there are proper responses to ANY skill or build, this isn't earth shattering. If you're draining energy he can run, so now is that tactic "utterly worthless", ready for the trash bin? If you're smiting he can run. If you're using nearly 95% of the skills in the game, someone can run. Universal and specialized counters exist in the game. So plan for it the best you can. On a team, perhaps that means you have an official Crippler to be ready for action, or you bring in something yourself. There are various ways to use Mind Wrack that involve other secondaries/skills. Like any other skill, you always try to figure out the best way to support what you're trying to do.

Besides that however, if they run they run to avoid dying. And that only supports my point - obviously the runner that is losing health and has no energy is telling me I am doing something significant or he'd laugh off the effects of this trash spell, right? I also fully understand the battle tactics you describve about baiting a player to come too far forward unprrotected. If my team is AoE draining too, that's less of a concern since I can easily switch to a nearer target and continue the energy lock down assault. That's a Mind Wrack build in action - locking down a drained enemy so he is out longer than the brief drainage period, and taking 20% damage every cast while you're at it.

Instead of going all over the map saying this counters that, and do this but don't do that... let's simplify this discussion. My definition of trashy skills that are utterly worthless mean exactly that - there are no tangible benefits once all pros and cons are considered. At its best, Mind Wrack builds aide in energy draining tactics by enforcing energy denial. This means that once they lose the ability to cast spells/use energy skills, they are further prevented for a long period of time. Along with that obviously useful tactic, you can get 20% damage per Mind Wrack cast. that damage came come as quickly as once every 2.5 seconds.

Also, again you show how little is understood at maximizing this skill's abilities with the wasted energy comment. I don't waste hardly any energy in my Mind Wrack cycles. I keep them under 5E so they can't cast, and with the skills I listed, I remove 5E from them everytime I trigger Mind Wrack. Where's the waste? They lose 5E, but I do NOT net 0. Besides the inherent health bonus from draining 5E, I just took close to 100 points off the life bar. And I keep them again at no energy, take what little they have for my benefit, and hurt them once more until they die. A dead opponent = success for the team. A dead opponent is hardly proof of "the costs far outweighing the benefits" as you put it...I'm getting results for my "costs". I killed an ele today with it (MW triggered four times) and noticed I still had 50% of my energy remaining, so forum theory fails again. Why is this so complicated to understand?

Even when you can get -20% damage every 2.5 seconds (at best), it is still not the most incredible DPS ever seen, but it IS very significant damage and its done on a foe that can NOT use energy to retaliate! Thiis puts them close to perhaps the most helpless situation possible in the game. Add a Cripple (he can't remove it!) and some skill/signet punishment for icing on the cake if you wish, but draining the two most important bars on your status screen simultaneously is in no way a worthless, useless tactic that has no purpose whatsoever.

I ask you, as a Mesmer target, would you rather be alive with no energy or dying/dead with no energy? If death is not acceptable to you, why is it impossible to think imposing death on an opponent with something like Mind Wrack isn't a worthwhile outcome to an energy denial build? Nothing is perfect (including pure energy denial builds) but if MW works, your team is greatly improving its winning chances based on player numbers alone.

I think Mind Wrack may combine well with the other two 5 energy cost domination skills, that is, with Shatter Delusions and Wastrel's Worry.

For, if Mind Wrack is casted, it may follow -or precede- some skill to drain mana(Energy Burn, Chaos Storm, ...) and, or, some skill to steal mana (Energy Drain, Life Tap, ...), but if that were not enough to trigger it, then, either:

1. Shatter Delusions, and some more profit is got from those 5 energy expended in M.W.

2. Wastrel's Worry, so that either W's W works or if this is ended, then M. W. may get triggered; if this fails, there is still 1. Shatter Delusions.


Think that if a foe has Mind Wrack on her may make her very busy to try to not reach zero mana, else she has to dispel it, and either of these ways use to not be bad for the caster of M. W. (a case in wich might be bad is if another mesmer dipels it with Shatter Hex).

Any expert's comment?

I was skeptical with this spell when I first read it but after using it with an energy denial mes I realized how powerful it is. Combined with Energy Surge, Energy Burn and Sig of Weariness this thing goes off! With 16 Domination this thing does 95 damage (round up to 100 since 5 is negligible) and with Energy Burn thats a total of 175 and easily spammable.

i always take it with an nrg surge/burn build, cause once your foe is drained, both surge and burn lose most of their damage potential, simply applying mind wrack gives them a serious pain every time you drain them / they cast a spell and reach 0 nrg

mind wrack also seriously hurts focus swappers, while focus swapping pretty much ruins surge / burn, every swap from high to low will make mind wrack trigger. If you do not use mind wrack on a surge build, you should have a realy realy good reason (or you might as well stop playing mesmer)

I love stacking wrack with surge and burn and sig of weariness. As soon as wrack goes off the first time you can just keep spamming it along with another e-denial spell for massive amounts of damage. E-Surge = 80 dmg. Wrack = 97 dmg. When they both go off = 177 dmg at once.

for me, i use mindwrack to determien when an enemy's energy bar has hit 0's. To you guys, you use it as a damager spell.

I cast it on them after I e-surge, then I e-burn, and drain their energy then wham! But yesterday, I found that some people (because mind wrack has pretty fast recharge) cast mind wrack on you, then Shatter Delusion you!